I grew up in as normal a hosehold as possible, and I am gay. Im sure there are gay people who were molested as children, just like there are many straight people that were molested as children. That can not be an indicator of ones sexuallity. I no more choose to be gay than you choose to be straight. Im very happy with my life btw.
I don't see how you can know that for sure. I mean, if you're gay you can say, I've felt this urge and I never chose for it like straight people didn't choose to be straight. But that doesn't mean other factors couldn't have "made" you gay, you know. I never felt a gay urge but then again, who knows maybe if I were molested as a child or grew up in a different environment I might have been gay...
In that way it's interesting to know... but I doubt this will make any difference...
Your sig. is hilarious by the way
This sidewalk is for regular walking, not for fancy walking!
Maybe choosing which movie you watch isn't so much of a choice.
There are gay penguins and other animals.
Oh, but we have free-will. Never mind, condemn the queers.
/sarcasm
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Even if we don't have free-will is aborting a gay fetus any better or worse than aborting a straight fetus?
It shouldn't be any different. Unless we are adopting Eugenics as a social policy.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Perfectly said. That is what it comes down to. Why do people even care about this argument (except for the interest in science)? Whether one is born gay, or chooses to be that way, it should not matter in the slightest. Live and let live.
I am curious as to what "accept him for who he is" type post will ensue from this... but I think this situation would matter in the slightest...
My brother is gay. He claims he was born that way. I personally do not think I should have to raise my kids to believe that him having a boyfriend is normal when we go to any type of family gathering. I don't want to have to lie to save his little secret either. I don't understand all this stuff that teaches to accept people for who they are, it is not normal.
Perfectly said. That is what it comes down to. Why do people even care about this argument (except for the interest in science)? Whether one is born gay, or chooses to be that way, it should not matter in the slightest. Live and let live.
I'm only interested because of pure curiosity. and the science of it. that would have been a better discussion instead of the thread starter throwing useless abortion opinions.
Is aborting a fetus because it may be gay baby any worse than aborting it because it is a baby period? or the mother is poor or feels unprepared?
On paper, not really. I'd compare it to a woman who slept with a black man, got pregnant, and decided to have an abortion because she doesn't want to have a black baby. I believe she should have every right to do it. I'd also think of her as a horrible, racist person. The two aren't exclusive.
I'm only interested because of pure curiosity. and the science of it. that would have been a better discussion instead of the thread starter throwing useless abortion opinions.
Bailey and Pillard found a 52 percent coherence of sexual orientation in monozygous twins. Only a 22 percent coherence in dizygous twins.
This suggests that genetics has an influence on sexual orientation, but is not a sufficient causal conditional. If genetics alone were sufficient cause for sexual orientation, there should be a 100 percent coherence in monozygous (single zygote/identical twins) twins.
But I question wether the other factors (environment, society, etc..) work to suppress the genetic factors. So one not oriented as gay, might still have biological desires for the same sex. Nothing has been conclusive, except that genetics has something to do with it. We can see across species that homosexuality is normal.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
If there were a "gay" gene, wouldn't it have died out a long time ago? Obviously this gene isn't being passed along much. How do you explain the one gay guy that pops up in the family from a long line of very ungay ancestry? I'm honestly just curious. Maybe someone far more versed in genetics than i am can explain it to me.
On the other hand, i've seen, with my own eyes, some pretty gay JEANS.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
If there were a "gay" gene, wouldn't it have died out a long time ago? Obviously this gene isn't being passed along much. How do you explain the one gay guy that pops up in the family from a long line of very ungay ancestry? I'm honestly just curious. Maybe someone far more versed in genetics than i am can explain it to me.
On the other hand, i've seen, with my own eyes, some pretty gay JEANS.
While I'm not a geneticist, and personally believe homosexuality has more than one factor contributing to it (i.e. the 52% identical twin post Ahnimus made), I will say that you can't really determine that gay isn't genetic by claiming if it was it would have "died out" by now. First, societal issues likely kept many old-timey homosexuals in the closet - giving the appearance of a "long line of very ungay ancestry." And second, there are a number of genetic conditions that keep a person from being able to have children, and those conditions are all still around.
Bailey and Pillard found a 52 percent coherence of sexual orientation in monozygous twins. Only a 22 percent coherence in dizygous twins.
This suggests that genetics has an influence on sexual orientation, but is not a sufficient causal conditional. If genetics alone were sufficient cause for sexual orientation, there should be a 100 percent coherence in monozygous (single zygote/identical twins) twins.
But I question wether the other factors (environment, society, etc..) work to suppress the genetic factors. So one not oriented as gay, might still have biological desires for the same sex. Nothing has been conclusive, except that genetics has something to do with it. We can see across species that homosexuality is normal.
I defintely think it has to do with genetics, but social and evnirnmental factors play a role as well.
some gays say they were born that way. then you have straight people who switch sides during a mid-life crisis (for example).
If there were a "gay" gene, wouldn't it have died out a long time ago? Obviously this gene isn't being passed along much. How do you explain the one gay guy that pops up in the family from a long line of very ungay ancestry? I'm honestly just curious. Maybe someone far more versed in genetics than i am can explain it to me.
On the other hand, i've seen, with my own eyes, some pretty gay JEANS.
Genetics is complicated. I haven't obtained sufficient knowledge myself. But I know that gene expression can be influenced by internal mileu, and in the case of turtles, sex determination depends on the warmth of the sand the eggs are in. So the 'gene' for sex determination uses an external factor to guide it's differentiation.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
If there were a "gay" gene, wouldn't it have died out a long time ago? Obviously this gene isn't being passed along much. How do you explain the one gay guy that pops up in the family from a long line of very ungay ancestry? I'm honestly just curious. Maybe someone far more versed in genetics than i am can explain it to me.
On the other hand, i've seen, with my own eyes, some pretty gay JEANS.
Maybe the original human was a he-she. One that impregnated itself.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I grew up in as normal a hosehold as possible, and I am gay. Im sure there are gay people who were molested as children, just like there are many straight people that were molested as children. That can not be an indicator of ones sexuallity. I no more choose to be gay than you choose to be straight. Im very happy with my life btw.
I'm not saying molestation or a difficult household or whatever is the "cause" of homosexuality and I'm not saying it's a choice either. I think even though you might feel you were born gay, like I feel I was born straight, there's no way of knowing if that's true. It could have been a thousand things that "triggered" your homosexuality or my heterosexuality, and perhaps different circumstances might have "made" me gay and you straight.
And that's where I think this research might give us some answers. And that will be interesting but I don't think it will make a huge difference. I'm certainly not going to look at gay people differently, whether you were born gay, choose to be gay or whatever I couldn't care less. But on the other hand, I think people who don't like gay people won't change their mind either, no matter what this research proves.
This is interesting stuff, though, from what i can tell having just skimmed it, it deals primarily with male/female determination. i'm not making the link to homosexuality.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
You may think so; but I don't believe pro-choicers are comfortable with pro-lifers defining what it means to be pro-choice.
As a social policy I'm very pro-choice and that means no judgement of the act or person nor any public funding. It is a purely personal choice and as a personal choice should be personally funded.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
This is interesting stuff, though, from what i can tell having just skimmed it, it deals primarily with male/female determination. i'm not making the link to homosexuality.
edit: sorry. double post
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
As a social policy I'm very pro-choice and that means no judgement of the act or person nor any public funding. It is a purely personal choice and as a personal choice should be personally funded.
Then why all the "but, but, but I thought......" rhetoric?
I'm also pro-choice. However, I don't think abortion should be solely an option of those who can afford it. After all, those who can't afford an abortion are likely not able to afford a child.
This is interesting stuff, though, from what i can tell having just skimmed it, it deals primarily with male/female determination. i'm not making the link to homosexuality.
edit: sorry. double post
I thought someone might find it interesting. It also illustrates how gene expression isn't a static process, it depends on several other factors.
But the process is not flawless. Once in a while, an XY embryo will develop as a female, complete with ovarian tissue instead of testes; likewise, an XX embryo will sometimes develop as a male. Such sex-reversed individuals, unaware of the chromosomal mismatch, often show up at the clinic when they experience problems with infertility. As it turns out, most XX males actually harbor a small piece of the Y chromosome, which has gotten stuck onto the end of one of their Xs; and some XY females are missing the corresponding small fragment from the tip of their Y.
The question, "Why are people homosexual?" is bound to have a complicated answer as well. Something like, an abnormality in the cascade of gene expression in combination with, or influenced by, environmental influences.
But, the information I posted is just a primer on sex determination. If this were a scientific question.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Then why all the "but, but, but I thought......" rhetoric?
I'm also pro-choice. However, I don't think abortion should be solely an option of those who can afford it. After all, those who can't afford an abortion are likely not able to afford a child.
I'm pro-legalization of pot but I don't expect the government to fund my habit.
The rhetorical questions were an attempt to promote thought and discussion on the subject. And for me to understand how some people can support some some abortion decisions and not others while saying they are pro-choice.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I'm pro-legalization of pot but I don't expect the government to fund my habit.
The rhetorical questions were an attempt to promote thought and discussion on the subject. And for me to understand how some people can support some some abortion decisions and not others while saying they are pro-choice.
But being pro-choice doesn't mean you have to support every abortion decision, just the legality of the abortion itself.
And you can always quit pot - hell, the government might even pick up part of the cost to do so if you require rehab. Quitting children.......is a bit different.
I grew up in as normal a hosehold as possible, and I am gay. Im sure there are gay people who were molested as children, just like there are many straight people that were molested as children. That can not be an indicator of ones sexuallity. I no more choose to be gay than you choose to be straight. Im very happy with my life btw.
i am not gay, however my younger brother is. we were brought up in a completely normal family, neither of us were ever molested. both of us had a strong, loving father (and mother) in our life. we are a little under a year apart, so we had practically identical childhoods. i am straight, he is gay. if you ask my mother, she said she had an idea from when he was very little - just by how he acted, etc.
those of you who think it is a "choice" honestly need to come to reality and look at the situation. why would my brother have made the "choice" to live in fear and hiding throughout high school, and to risk being ridiculed by his old friends and family members? i mean, if it was his "choice", he could have just switched back - no?
i mean, there really was a point in my life when i sat down when i was about five years old and decided that whenever i saw an attractive woman i would begin to get excited, my mind would start to race, i'd get really hot, and i would get a boner. (end sarcasm)
i am not gay, however my younger brother is. we were brought up in a completely normal family, neither of us were ever molested. both of us had a strong, loving father (and mother) in our life. we are a little under a year apart, so we had practically identical childhoods. i am straight, he is gay. if you ask my mother, she said she had an idea from when he was very little - just by how he acted, etc.
those of you who think it is a "choice" honestly need to come to reality and look at the situation. why would my brother have made the "choice" to live in fear and hiding throughout high school, and to risk being ridiculed by his old friends and family members? i mean, if it was his "choice", he could have just switched back - no?
i mean, there really was a point in my life when i sat down when i was about five years old and decided that whenever i saw an attractive woman i would begin to get excited, my mind would start to race, i'd get really hot, and i would get a boner. (end sarcasm)
That is not the choice he made... He choice was not conscious. My sister love the Eagles, I love Pearl Jam.. She things Pearl Jam is boring.. We were one year apart in the same household with the same parents.
It is a choice.. one that is slow based upon very many personal experiences. We each put things together differently. Live is very complex and relationships are complex. We all develop our own personal understanding of things that happen to us.
We don't know the private sexual thoughts of anyone but ourselves.. I am sure there are many private sexual thoughts of your mate that you will never know.. I am not talking about anything dramatic.. just little things that we just never get to talk about..
Being Gay is not really that drastic except for the irrational societal reactions to it. Otherwise its a simple pleasure.. and everyone's are different - and over long periods of time manifest in interesting ways.
Gay is not that big a deal... sex for pleasure is what it is... masturbation is always same sex.. that is gay!
That is not the choice he made... He choice was not conscious. My sister love the Eagles, I love Pearl Jam.. She things Pearl Jam is boring.. We were one year apart in the same household with the same parents.
It is a choice.. one that is slow based upon very many personal experiences. We each put things together differently. Live is very complex and relationships are complex. We all develop our own personal understanding of things that happen to us.
We don't know the private sexual thoughts of anyone but ourselves.. I am sure there are many private sexual thoughts of your mate that you will never know.. I am not talking about anything dramatic.. just little things that we just never get to talk about..
Being Gay is not really that drastic except for the irrational societal reactions to it. Otherwise its a simple pleasure.. and everyone's are different - and over long periods of time manifest in interesting ways.
Gay is not that big a deal... sex for pleasure is what it is... masturbation is always same sex.. that is gay!
you cant compare sexual orientation to which music one likes. or which pizza toppings are best.. I can easily convert someone into liking pearl jam (most of us probably could). I've been trying to convince my girlfriend to like girls sometimes, but damnit, it never works.
but seriously, its a horrible comparison. anyone with half a brain can realize that.
It is a choice.. one that is slow based upon very many personal experiences.
What do you base this on?
Gay is not that big a deal... sex for pleasure is what it is... masturbation is always same sex.. that is gay!
I think that is autoeroticism, not homosexuality.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I've been trying to convince my girlfriend to like girls sometimes, but damnit, it never works.
Careful with that one, dude. You might succeed in convincing her she likes girls, but still prefers the - um - one on one intimacy, if you get my drift.
Even if research ultimately shows that genetics play a bigger role, it “will never be something that forces people to behave in a certain way,” Chambers said. “We all have the freedom to choose.”
That's my cue, lol.
That was Chambers, right? Not Chalmers?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
you cant compare sexual orientation to which music one likes. or which pizza toppings are best.. I can easily convert someone into liking pearl jam (most of us probably could). I've been trying to convince my girlfriend to like girls sometimes, but damnit, it never works.
but seriously, its a horrible comparison. anyone with half a brain can realize that.
I have half a brain.. and I bet I can get your girlfriend to enjoy the love of a pretty girl before you can get my sister to enjoy Pearl Jam.
Comments
There are gay penguins and other animals.
Oh, but we have free-will. Never mind, condemn the queers.
/sarcasm
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
It shouldn't be any different. Unless we are adopting Eugenics as a social policy.
I am curious as to what "accept him for who he is" type post will ensue from this... but I think this situation would matter in the slightest...
My brother is gay. He claims he was born that way. I personally do not think I should have to raise my kids to believe that him having a boyfriend is normal when we go to any type of family gathering. I don't want to have to lie to save his little secret either. I don't understand all this stuff that teaches to accept people for who they are, it is not normal.
I'm only interested because of pure curiosity. and the science of it. that would have been a better discussion instead of the thread starter throwing useless abortion opinions.
You may think so; but I don't believe pro-choicers are comfortable with pro-lifers defining what it means to be pro-choice.
On paper, not really. I'd compare it to a woman who slept with a black man, got pregnant, and decided to have an abortion because she doesn't want to have a black baby. I believe she should have every right to do it. I'd also think of her as a horrible, racist person. The two aren't exclusive.
Bailey and Pillard found a 52 percent coherence of sexual orientation in monozygous twins. Only a 22 percent coherence in dizygous twins.
This suggests that genetics has an influence on sexual orientation, but is not a sufficient causal conditional. If genetics alone were sufficient cause for sexual orientation, there should be a 100 percent coherence in monozygous (single zygote/identical twins) twins.
But I question wether the other factors (environment, society, etc..) work to suppress the genetic factors. So one not oriented as gay, might still have biological desires for the same sex. Nothing has been conclusive, except that genetics has something to do with it. We can see across species that homosexuality is normal.
On the other hand, i've seen, with my own eyes, some pretty gay JEANS.
I defintely think it has to do with genetics, but social and evnirnmental factors play a role as well.
some gays say they were born that way. then you have straight people who switch sides during a mid-life crisis (for example).
its interesting stuff to say the least.
Genetics is complicated. I haven't obtained sufficient knowledge myself. But I know that gene expression can be influenced by internal mileu, and in the case of turtles, sex determination depends on the warmth of the sand the eggs are in. So the 'gene' for sex determination uses an external factor to guide it's differentiation.
Article about ESD in reptiles.
Maybe the original human was a he-she. One that impregnated itself.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Animations
http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/gender/animations.html
Video
http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/gender/video.html
Lecture Summaries and Key Concepts (PDF)
http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/gender/pdf/2001_summaries.pdf
Complete Lecture on Sex Determination (couple of hours long)
http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/gender/lectures.html
I'm not saying molestation or a difficult household or whatever is the "cause" of homosexuality and I'm not saying it's a choice either. I think even though you might feel you were born gay, like I feel I was born straight, there's no way of knowing if that's true. It could have been a thousand things that "triggered" your homosexuality or my heterosexuality, and perhaps different circumstances might have "made" me gay and you straight.
And that's where I think this research might give us some answers. And that will be interesting but I don't think it will make a huge difference. I'm certainly not going to look at gay people differently, whether you were born gay, choose to be gay or whatever I couldn't care less. But on the other hand, I think people who don't like gay people won't change their mind either, no matter what this research proves.
And I'm glad you're happy, so am I
naděje umírá poslední
This is interesting stuff, though, from what i can tell having just skimmed it, it deals primarily with male/female determination. i'm not making the link to homosexuality.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
This is interesting stuff, though, from what i can tell having just skimmed it, it deals primarily with male/female determination. i'm not making the link to homosexuality.
edit: sorry. double post
I'm also pro-choice. However, I don't think abortion should be solely an option of those who can afford it. After all, those who can't afford an abortion are likely not able to afford a child.
I thought someone might find it interesting. It also illustrates how gene expression isn't a static process, it depends on several other factors.
Similarly the HHMI Lecture Summaries and Key Concepts (PDF) illustrates more complexity.
But the process is not flawless. Once in a while, an XY embryo will develop as a female, complete with ovarian tissue instead of testes; likewise, an XX embryo will sometimes develop as a male. Such sex-reversed individuals, unaware of the chromosomal mismatch, often show up at the clinic when they experience problems with infertility. As it turns out, most XX males actually harbor a small piece of the Y chromosome, which has gotten stuck onto the end of one of their Xs; and some XY females are missing the corresponding small fragment from the tip of their Y.
The question, "Why are people homosexual?" is bound to have a complicated answer as well. Something like, an abnormality in the cascade of gene expression in combination with, or influenced by, environmental influences.
But, the information I posted is just a primer on sex determination. If this were a scientific question.
The rhetorical questions were an attempt to promote thought and discussion on the subject. And for me to understand how some people can support some some abortion decisions and not others while saying they are pro-choice.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
And you can always quit pot - hell, the government might even pick up part of the cost to do so if you require rehab. Quitting children.......is a bit different.
i am not gay, however my younger brother is. we were brought up in a completely normal family, neither of us were ever molested. both of us had a strong, loving father (and mother) in our life. we are a little under a year apart, so we had practically identical childhoods. i am straight, he is gay. if you ask my mother, she said she had an idea from when he was very little - just by how he acted, etc.
those of you who think it is a "choice" honestly need to come to reality and look at the situation. why would my brother have made the "choice" to live in fear and hiding throughout high school, and to risk being ridiculed by his old friends and family members? i mean, if it was his "choice", he could have just switched back - no?
i mean, there really was a point in my life when i sat down when i was about five years old and decided that whenever i saw an attractive woman i would begin to get excited, my mind would start to race, i'd get really hot, and i would get a boner. (end sarcasm)
Madison Square Garden 6/25/08
That is not the choice he made... He choice was not conscious. My sister love the Eagles, I love Pearl Jam.. She things Pearl Jam is boring.. We were one year apart in the same household with the same parents.
It is a choice.. one that is slow based upon very many personal experiences. We each put things together differently. Live is very complex and relationships are complex. We all develop our own personal understanding of things that happen to us.
We don't know the private sexual thoughts of anyone but ourselves.. I am sure there are many private sexual thoughts of your mate that you will never know.. I am not talking about anything dramatic.. just little things that we just never get to talk about..
Being Gay is not really that drastic except for the irrational societal reactions to it. Otherwise its a simple pleasure.. and everyone's are different - and over long periods of time manifest in interesting ways.
Gay is not that big a deal... sex for pleasure is what it is... masturbation is always same sex.. that is gay!
you cant compare sexual orientation to which music one likes. or which pizza toppings are best.. I can easily convert someone into liking pearl jam (most of us probably could). I've been trying to convince my girlfriend to like girls sometimes, but damnit, it never works.
but seriously, its a horrible comparison. anyone with half a brain can realize that.
What do you base this on?
I think that is autoeroticism, not homosexuality.
And you're right. It never works.
That's my cue, lol.
That was Chambers, right? Not Chalmers?
I have half a brain.. and I bet I can get your girlfriend to enjoy the love of a pretty girl before you can get my sister to enjoy Pearl Jam.