Angry driver shoots egg-throwing teen

Jeanie

NMyTree wrote:

Interesting thing is, we don't know as of yet if the gun used was a legal gun. Also, the fact the SUV was abandoned makes me suspect the SUV may have been stolen.

An abandoned SUV doesn't necessarily mean I'm correct about it possibily being stolen, but it seems to indicate that. Or maybe the driver does own the SUV and they abandoned the SUV, figuring they'd report it stolen, after the fact. Which of course is a ridiculous notion and will do them no good, whatsoever.

I'm betting the gun was illegal and the SUV was stolen.

I'm confused. If the SUV was stolen then why would you get so angry at it being egged? And what difference does the gun being illegal make? The kid is still dead. If you had gone out with your illegal gun to steal an SUV why would you draw attention to yourself by shooting a passer by for a prank?

NMyTree

Jeanie wrote:

I'm confused. If the SUV was stolen then why would you get so angry at it being egged?

First of all, we're not talking about rational people, here. You're trying to apply rational notions to people who are not at all rational.

But to entertain your questions, if they had a buyer for the SUV, they could have been pissed off at the the possibility the eggs splatters would lower their return value, on the stolen SUV.

Just one possibility.

Jeanie wrote:

And what difference does the gun being illegal make? The kid is still dead.

The only difference it makes is in the discussions regarding the legal access gun laws and the laws regarding legal rights to carry a weapon on one's person. Ultimately, it makes no difference because a young boy lost his life and that is the most important aspect, here.

Jeanie wrote:

If you had gone out with your illegal gun to steal an SUV why would you draw attention to yourself by shooting a passer by for a prank?

Hell, thugs with illegal guns shoot people and each other every day, over less than an egg pelting. Idiots shoot people just because "they looked at me bad" or because they want to steal a jacket.

Again, these are not rational people. But I was speculating when I presented those comments.

Why would a theif robbing a store carry his wallet and ID to a robbery and then drop his wallet and ID in the store, that he just robbed?

Why would anyone do the stupid and mindless things people do everyday?

Jeanie

NMyTree wrote:

First of all, we're not talking about rational people, here. You're trying to apply rational notions to people who are not at all rational.

But to entertain your questions, if they had a buyer for the SUV, they could have been pissed off at the the possibility the eggs splatters would lower their return value, on the stolen SUV.

Just one possibility.



The only difference it makes is in the discussions regarding the legal access gun laws and the laws regarding legal rights to carry a weapon on one's person. Ultimately, it makes no difference because a young boy lost his life and that is the most important aspect, here.




Hell, thugs with illegal guns shoot people and each other every day, over less than an egg pelting. Idiots shoot people just because "they looked at me bad" or because they want to steal a jacket.

Again, these are not rational people. But I was speculating when I presented those comments.

Why would a theif robbing a store carry his wallet and ID to a robbery and then drop his wallet and ID in the store, that he just robbed?

Why would anyone do the stupid and mindless things people do everyday?

That makes sense about having a buyer for the SUV. I think your other theory about it being abandoned because the driver wanted to be able to say it had been stolen makes better sense. And I agree that the whole thing is illogical and that the most important aspect is that a young kid lost his life. I guess I find the whole issue of whether the gun was illegal vs legal very confusing because I don't understand the whole gun culture in the US. For all the laws it seems that a large percentage of the population thinks it has a right to bear arms, yes I know it is part of your constitution but people actually WANT to own them and use them. I guess I don't understand that because that is not really a part of our culture here. I'm not criticizing I just find the whole gun culture mystifying.

Skitch Patterson

redrock wrote:

What I said.. wouldn't stop criminals (or the criminally minded) but it would stop 'law abiding citizens' (even Mr. Redneck and the likes who are law abiding citizens) having them. And it would make a difference to gun deaths (animal or human). Just look at all deaths caused by firearms that were in 'decent' people's hands before they went beserk. I would think that if these people didn't have a gun readily available, on the spur of the moment, they wouldn't be bothered trying to get one illegally (takes time, connections, money, etc) and crimes could be avoided.

Yes, you would solve SOME of the murders that result from "decent" people going berserk.

And you would replace them deaths from home invasions, muggings, and robberies.

Scubascott

Why do so many Americans feel the need to own a handgun anyway? Who are they afraid of? I just don't understand the mentality.

I grew up on a farm. I'm familiar with rifles and shotguns. Firearms like those have a purpose, which generally has nothing whatsoever to do with causing harm to another human. But handguns are designed to kill people. That's what they're made for. That's all they're made for. Why does anyone who isn't a police officer or soldier need to own one? I just don't get it.

Songburst

angelica wrote:

I find this to be a disturbing comment. This sentence glosses over that the shooter is accountable for a dead-adolescent. And it then almost or does imply it's the kids fault someone was killed.

My comments have nothing to do with the shooter. Obviously what he/she did is reprehensible and just a touch over the limit as far as retribution for an egging goes. What I am arguing is that the kids were old enough to know better and they were old enough to realize that if they got caught throwing an egg at the wrong person, and unfortunately for them there were severe consequences this time. They probably didn't think that they would get shot at, but they definately knew that they would get a beating if they were caught. If I know eggings (and my house and truck have been egged a few times) the kids threw the eggs and ran away. Why would they run away if they didn't understand that what they were doing is wrong?

Songburst

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Of course, you are supposed to respect other's property but no one in their wildest dreams would have expected to be shot at because of it and nor should they. The kids should have been punished by his parents.

And good lord, are you serious about prosecuting a kid for throwing an egg? Like our justice system doesn't have anything better to do. Geez.

Damn right they should be prosecuted. The little fuckers should definately have to pick garbage up off the highway for a few weekends.

I also know that you can't expect to be shot at for throwing an egg, but what should you expect then? People have been killed for dumber things than this. My point is that they knew it was wrong and they knew that there were potential consequences.

Abookamongstthemany

Songburst wrote:

My comments have nothing to do with the shooter. Obviously what he/she did is reprehensible and just a touch over the limit as far as retribution for an egging goes. What I am arguing is that the kids were old enough to know better and they were old enough to realize that if they got caught throwing an egg at the wrong person, and unfortunately for them there were severe consequences this time. They probably didn't think that they would get shot at, but they definately knew that they would get a beating if they were caught. If I know eggings (and my house and truck have been egged a few times) the kids threw the eggs and ran away. Why would they run away if they didn't understand that what they were doing is wrong?

It just seems crazy to me to emphasize the child's bad behavior of damaging property and not stress as much on the adult's wrong doing of killing a child out of anger due to damage of a material item. Clearly the bigger wrong was to gun down the child.

Abookamongstthemany

Songburst wrote:

Damn right they should be prosecuted. The little fuckers should definately have to pick garbage up off the highway for a few weekends.

I also know that you can't expect to be shot at for throwing an egg, but what should you expect then? People have been killed for dumber things than this. My point is that they knew it was wrong and they knew that there were potential consequences.

There parents should punish them and community service wouldn't hurt. I bet the cops wouldn't spend a lot of time taking this too seriuosly though. Being killed is not an acceptable consequence for egg throwing.

angelica

Songburst wrote:

My comments have nothing to do with the shooter. Obviously what he/she did is reprehensible and just a touch over the limit as far as retribution for an egging goes. What I am arguing is that the kids were old enough to know better and they were old enough to realize that if they got caught throwing an egg at the wrong person, and unfortunately for them there were severe consequences this time. They probably didn't think that they would get shot at, but they definately knew that they would get a beating if they were caught. If I know eggings (and my house and truck have been egged a few times) the kids threw the eggs and ran away. Why would they run away if they didn't understand that what they were doing is wrong?

I really don't think you're the kind of guy who would go out and shoot kids for egging your truck. I get nervous, though, when it in any way looks like the children (adolescents) were being blamed for the shooting. Being accountable for egging a truck as a teen is much different than being accountable for shooting a human when one is an adult. As I say, I have done "eggings" twice. I was about 15/16 for both times, and it was a stupid prank, and I knew it was "wrong" but I had no idea of the regular consequences. As a matter of fact, when we were egging cars out the window, one got hit, and began to stop (on a country highway; our house was right beside the road). We suddenly got terrified and realized these were real people and that we might get caught and get in big trouble. We stopped. (the car slowed, then took off again) The second time was on devil's night and we were in hallowe'en costumes. We were dumb, non-insightful kids. I cringe now to think of the true consequences and how horrible we were. Or how blind we were to our own actions. I think about, though, that even as us adults, some of us know smoking will probably kill us, but we're shocked when we get lung cancer. Or, well, I was indignant when I realized smoking ACTUALLY complicated an ear infection issue I had and led me to have to get surgery. I was so indignant, to realize there were real consequences after smoking two packs a day for 21 years that I quit. Sometimes we just don't get the consequences. Even as adults.

I can certainly see if you've been victimized why you would have very strong feelings about it. If it's any consolation, I was asking my 17 year old son if he knows kids who would do such a thing. I told him my own stories and he was appalled with me! Then I asked my boyfriend--same thing! I'm owning my shame.

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

Why do so many Americans feel the need to own a handgun anyway? Who are they afraid of? I just don't understand the mentality.

I grew up on a farm. I'm familiar with rifles and shotguns. Firearms like those have a purpose, which generally has nothing whatsoever to do with causing harm to another human. But handguns are designed to kill people. That's what they're made for. That's all they're made for. Why does anyone who isn't a police officer or soldier need to own one? I just don't get it.

I think it has been rammed down their throats since they wrote the constitution, and definately kept alive by the gun lobby and manufacturers. It's different here. We don't have that strong a gun lobby and I think Aussie's are more inclined to fist fight their way through an argument. And suprisingly I think it may just be possible because we don't have access to so many guns we may just have better impulse control! I also think that many Aussie's share your view that firearms have a purpose. That they are a tool for a particular job and not some requirement for "protection". It does disturb me though that we have had an increase in knife related/stabbing deaths here particularly since Martin Bryant. What do you think?

Scubascott

Jeanie wrote:

And suprisingly I think it may just be possible because we don't have access to so many guns we may just have better impulse control!

Hmm, not so sure about that. What do you mean by impulse control?

Jeanie wrote:

I also think that many Aussie's share your view that firearms have a purpose. That they are a tool for a particular job and not some requirement for "protection". It does disturb me though that we have had an increase in knife related/stabbing deaths here particularly since Martin Bryant. What do you think?

Yep, that is exactly how I see our firearms at home. As a tools. Ones that should be handled carefully, just like knives. I see handguns completely differently though. As far as I'm concerned they are designed with one purpose in mind, and that is to kill people.

I think any increase in stabbings since Port Arthur has probably just got more to do with a changing culture amongst kids in the cities. They're increasingly influenced by the american gang culture that they see on TV. . . Maybe that was just a cheap excuse to blame the americans . . .

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

Hmm, not so sure about that. What do you mean by impulse control?

I think if you have a gun and you lose your temper it's easy to fire in anger. It's impersonal, the gun responds to your impulse. Pulling the trigger is an easy, automatic, reaction. It's much harder if you are angry to take a knife and stab someone. It's more personal, you have to get up close and use force and actually physically react and to a degree think. It requires more nerve impulses from your brain. I think when it comes to violence we have better impulse control, mostly because most Aussie's can't be bothered! ;-)




Yep, that is exactly how I see our firearms at home. As a tools. Ones that should be handled carefully, just like knives. I see handguns completely differently though. As far as I'm concerned they are designed with one purpose in mind, and that is to kill people.

I think any increase in stabbings since Port Arthur has probably just got more to do with a changing culture amongst kids in the cities. They're increasingly influenced by the american gang culture that they see on TV. . . Maybe that was just a cheap excuse to blame the americans . . .

Maybe, and I certainly think the way Aussie kids parrot the American gang culture is disburbing, but I wonder if it has more to do with access? It is harder to get guns here therefore the majority of people are less inclined to think of solving problems with a gun and maybe this is why with some young people knife violence is on the increase?

Scubascott

Jeanie wrote:

I think if you have a gun and you lose your temper it's easy to fire in anger. It's impersonal, the gun responds to your impulse. Pulling the trigger is an easy, automatic, reaction. It's much harder if you are angry to take a knife and stab someone. It's more personal, you have to get up close and use force and actually physically react and to a degree think. It requires more nerve impulses from your brain. I think when it comes to violence we have better impulse control, mostly because most Aussie's can't be bothered! ;-)

I see what you're getting at. I don't know that we're any better at controlling the impulse though, we're just lucky that we don't have the means to act on the impulse. Ie its not us controlling the impluse, its our gun laws. Which is why I think making handguns illegal is a great idea.

Jeanie wrote:

Maybe, and I certainly think the way Aussie kids parrot the American gang culture is disburbing, but I wonder if it has more to do with access? It is harder to get guns here therefore the majority of people are less inclined to think of solving problems with a gun and maybe this is why with some young people knife violence is on the increase?

Could be. I know which I'd rather be threatened with though. At least you can stay out of reach of a knife.

Songburst

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

It just seems crazy to me to emphasize the child's bad behavior of damaging property and not stress as much on the adult's wrong doing of killing a child out of anger due to damage of a material item. Clearly the bigger wrong was to gun down the child.

Again, I'm not arguing that gunning down the kid was the right thing to do. I would hope that it is clear that shooting someone for egging is a tad excessive. I'm just saying that the kids did something stupid, they knew it was wrong and they knew that there were consequences if caught. If they had any respect for people and their property, they would have never put themselves into a position where somebody wanted to shoot them. You never know how people are going to react to things like this. I guess we can blame parents, and kids will be kids, but all 14 year olds know better than to do something like that and it is their own fault.

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

I see what you're getting at. I don't know that we're any better at controlling the impulse though, we're just lucky that we don't have the means to act on the impulse. Ie its not us controlling the impluse, its our gun laws. Which is why I think making handguns illegal is a great idea.

I agree that they should be illegal but I do think we are better at controlling our impulse here because it hasn't been breed into us to bare(?) arms. Other than farming and your underworld figures most of us haven't even been in the same room as a gun. Most of us wouldn't consider owning a gun. That's got to rub off over the generations don't you think?


Could be. I know which I'd rather be threatened with though. At least you can stay out of reach of a knife.

I wouldn't want to be threatened with either and in the end it all gets back to the intention of the person on the end of the weapon, gun or knife.

Songburst

angelica wrote:

I really don't think you're the kind of guy who would go out and shoot kids for egging your truck. I get nervous, though, when it in any way looks like the children (adolescents) were being blamed for the shooting. Being accountable for egging a truck as a teen is much different than being accountable for shooting a human when one is an adult. As I say, I have done "eggings" twice. I was about 15/16 for both times, and it was a stupid prank, and I knew it was "wrong" but I had no idea of the regular consequences. As a matter of fact, when we were egging cars out the window, one got hit, and began to stop (on a country highway; our house was right beside the road). We suddenly got terrified and realized these were real people and that we might get caught and get in big trouble. We stopped. (the car slowed, then took off again) The second time was on devil's night and we were in hallowe'en costumes. We were dumb, non-insightful kids. I cringe now to think of the true consequences and how horrible we were. Or how blind we were to our own actions. I think about, though, that even as us adults, some of us know smoking will probably kill us, but we're shocked when we get lung cancer. Or, well, I was indignant when I realized smoking ACTUALLY complicated an ear infection issue I had and led me to have to get surgery. I was so indignant, to realize there were real consequences after smoking two packs a day for 21 years that I quit. Sometimes we just don't get the consequences. Even as adults.

I can certainly see if you've been victimized why you would have very strong feelings about it. If it's any consolation, I was asking my 17 year old son if he knows kids who would do such a thing. I told him my own stories and he was appalled with me! Then I asked my boyfriend--same thing! I'm owning my shame.

I know that I would never shoot someone and I probably wouldn't even harm them, but you never know. It's not the damage that bothers me either, it's the complete lack of respect. I was brought up to respect people and their property and someone else breaching that respect is a real sticking point with me.

seanw1010

NMyTree wrote:

Seems to me that shooting at egg-throwing kids (as wrong as throwing eggs is), is a gross over-reaction.

Eggs splattered on vehicle and on oneself, does not call for a response of gunfire.

Only a blithering idiot would respond with gunfire, to what is a harmless (but messy) prank.

actually, thanks to the "harmless" prank, my mom had to spend 2 days in the E.R. when she was twelve.
when she was out trick-or-treating, a car that had i few passangers in it drove up and threw a few eggs at her. one hit her in the eye, and it got infected. she was almost permanently blinded.
i wouldnt consider that a "harmless" prank, would you?

lalalalaaaaaaaa

Egg-throwing is no yolk these days...serious biz.

NMyTree

seanw1010 wrote:

actually, thanks to the "harmless" prank, my mom had to spend 2 days in the E.R. when she was twelve.
when she was out trick-or-treating, a car that had i few passangers in it drove up and threw a few eggs at her. one hit her in the eye, and it got infected. she was almost permanently blinded.
i wouldnt consider that a "harmless" prank, would you?

Well, there's a difference here. Your mother was walking and a car drove by and threw eggs at her.

In this case, kids who were walking threw eggs at a moving car, not an individual.

Just like anything, it's a harmless prank until something freaky happens.

You hit a car with an egg, no one gets hurt.

If the car's windows are down and the eggs hit the driver or passenger, then, someone could get hurt.

Regardless, shooting someone for throwing eggs is a gross over-reaction.