How much jail time for women who've had abortions?

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Just apply this same logic to women and you have a reason to make abortion illegal. "You don't want to suffer the consequences... don't have sex."

That's why I'm saying the position of pro-choice pro-support is hypocritical.

How on earth is that the same? There's lots of reasons to make abortion illegal just as there are lots of reasons to make men accountable.

I don't know ryan, I don't get all these labels that people have for this stuff.

We've already established that this isn't an either or situation. It's complicated. I really don't understand why it's necessary to make it black and white. If it was black and white then the law would reflect that.

I mean heaven forbid that the law said that if the woman decided that she was over being a mother that men should shoulder all the responsibility of child rearing! I'd love to see what would happen if men could get pregnant. Perhaps this would act as a deterrant? Maybe more men would suddenly be very interested in male contraception? But then I'm still waiting for society to clear up the double standard that a woman fucking as many blokes as she likes is labelled a slut where as a man in the same position is considered a stud.

Jeanie

catefrances wrote:

if that were the case, i'd be prepared take that chance.

And here lies the problem!!

They gotta find ways to make sex not be pleasurable then we could solve all this shit!

Juberoo

Since it has been pointed out many times on here by many, that most people know sex causes pregnancy, maybe it's time for society to create a consent law.

If a woman becomes pregnant and decides to keep the baby, the father has to agree. If he doesn't want the child, since he cannot choose abortion being that it is not his body, he signs off on all rights to the child and does not have to pay child support.

This then is the womans choice to have and provide for the child in question alone.

This arrangement would allow women to continue to have the choice over their bodies and will allow men to have a choice over their futures.

That being said, and I being a pro-lifer, I maintain that such idiocy would not even have to be considered if people would:
1. Be more responsible with sex.
2. Be more responsible with any children born thereof.
3. Erraticate the option of abortion all together.
4. Push for younger sex education.
5. Re-institute stronger morals and values in the family.

catefrances

Jeanie wrote:

And here lies the problem!!

They gotta find ways to make sex not be pleasurable then we could solve all this shit!

i see no problem.

Jeanie

catefrances wrote:

i see no problem.

Well me either to be honest!!

Jeanie

Juberoo wrote:

Since it has been pointed out many times on here by many, that most people know sex causes pregnancy, maybe it's time for society to create a consent law.

If a woman becomes pregnant and decides to keep the baby, the father has to agree. If he doesn't want the child, since he cannot choose abortion being that it is not his body, he signs off on all rights to the child and does not have to pay child support.

This then is the womans choice to have and provide for the child in question alone.

This arrangement would allow women to continue to have the choice over their bodies and will allow men to have a choice over their futures.

That being said, and I being a pro-lifer, I maintain that such idiocy would not even have to be considered if people would:
1. Be more responsible with sex.
2. Be more responsible with any children born thereof.
3. Erraticate the option of abortion all together.
4. Push for younger sex education.
5. Re-institute stronger morals and values in the family.

What about the kids?

At some point I know I'd wanna know who my Daddy was and why he didn't love me. And quite frankly if Mummy's answer was gonna be "some asshole raped me when I was a girl but I couldn't bring myself to abort you" then I know I truly would wish she had.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

How on earth is that the same? There's lots of reasons to make abortion illegal just as there are lots of reasons to make men accountable.

I don't know ryan, I don't get all these labels that people have for this stuff.

We've already established that this isn't an either or situation. It's complicated. I really don't understand why it's necessary to make it black and white. If it was black and white then the law would reflect that.

I mean heaven forbid that the law said that if the woman decided that she was over being a mother that men should shoulder all the responsibility of child rearing! I'd love to see what would happen if men could get pregnant. Perhaps this would act as a deterrant? Maybe more men would suddenly be very interested in male contraception? But then I'm still waiting for society to clear up the double standard that a woman fucking as many blokes as she likes is labelled a slut where as a man in the same position is considered a stud.

I agree with the slut/stud thing, but that's totally off-topic.

It seems we will have to disagree due to situational biases.

hippiemom

Juberoo wrote:

That being said, and I being a pro-lifer, I maintain that such idiocy would not even have to be considered if people would:
1. Be more responsible with sex.
2. Be more responsible with any children born thereof.
3. Erraticate the option of abortion all together.
4. Push for younger sex education.
5. Re-institute stronger morals and values in the family.

Ah yes, the old "Everything would be just grand if only everyone was more like me!" argument. You know, I think that very thing myself from time to time, but I realize that it doesn't make for sound social policy because most people aren't anything like me at all, and they're not ever going to be. Most people aren't much like you either. And no matter what anyone says or does ...

1. Some people are going to have sex irresponsibly (or against their will).
2. Some people are lousy parents.
3. You can't eradicate abortions, some people always have and always will get them.
4. Some people will always be opposed to sex education at any age.
5. Plenty of people will have morals and values different from yours or mine.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

I agree with the slut/stud thing, but that's totally off-topic.

It seems we will have to disagree due to situational biases.

I'm not so sure we do disagree Ryan.

My mind is not made up and set in concrete on this issue. That's what I mean about it not being black and white. There isn't a solution that will benefit all. I doubt there ever will be.

Will I always support abortion? Yep, because I cannot see that we can ever really eradicate the need for it.

Do I think that all men are bastards and should pay child support whether they wanted the kid or not? Well I'm still undecided about that. Well not about the all men are bastards! I know they aren't.

My dad didn't pay it, I don't hate him for it, but I think my life would have been a lot better if he did. Can I change that now? Nope. It is what it is.
Do I think he should have gone to jail for it? Absolutely not! Do I think he should have paid it? Yep! Absolutely! But then hindsight is a wonderful thing.
In hindsight I believe that my Mum should have aborted me and never married my Dad, had my brother or got divorced either. But they did what they did. And here I am. And I see this kind of situation happening all the time.
People make choices, good and bad choices and society tries to keep up with those choices by writing laws to resolve conflict in an equatible fashion. Sometimes the law is fair and equitable and sometimes it's not. BUT people still know the law as it stands. And they still need to take responsibility for their choices. And they are still going to make mistakes and unfortunately suffer the consequences of those mistakes. That's life.

Juberoo

Jeanie wrote:

What about the kids?

At some point I know I'd wanna know who my Daddy was and why he didn't love me. And quite frankly if Mummy's answer was gonna be "some asshole raped me when I was a girl but I couldn't bring myself to abort you" then I know I truly would wish she had.

Now why is it the man who doesn't want the child labled as unloving, yet the woman who kills her unborn child via abortion is still a loving individual?

Juberoo

hippiemom wrote:

Ah yes, the old "Everything would be just grand if only everyone was more like me!" argument. You know, I think that very thing myself from time to time, but I realize that it doesn't make for sound social policy because most people aren't anything like me at all, and they're not ever going to be. Most people aren't much like you either. And no matter what anyone says or does ...

1. Some people are going to have sex irresponsibly (or against their will).
2. Some people are lousy parents.
3. You can't eradicate abortions, some people always have and always will get them.
4. Some people will always be opposed to sex education at any age.
5. Plenty of people will have morals and values different from yours or mine.

Well, lets see...I never killed any of my unborn children. I wanted all the children I have concieved and have raised them with great parenting skills because I am a responsible individual and was educated on such things as reproduction and morals. My life is pretty good. I have a clean conscience and I never have to second guess my choices. Seems to me this equation works pretty well. I am confident that I am an upstanding member of society and that no one could ever accuse me of violence, disregard or selfishness.

As for the "some people" you mention in your list, just because they don't have it together doesn't mean that an innocent child should die for it.

Here's an idea. How about if a woman gets pregnant by "accident" (rolls eyes) she steps up to the plate and actually parents and supports the child she allowed to be concieved. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

If she isnt stable enough to do so, then adoption is still always an option.

As for the woman who was raped and concieved, these instances are considerably less than the woman who simply doesnt want her child. The argument is for the later. The rape victim could also choose to keep the child. After all it is her flesh and blood too. She could also choose to place the child for adoption.

I have to wonder...what do your own living children think of you and of the siblings they have lost and will never get to know?

Abookamongstthemany

Juberoo wrote:

Well, lets see...I never killed any of my unborn children. I wanted all the children I have concieved and have raised them with great parenting skills because I am a responsible individual and was educated on such things as reproduction and morals. My life is pretty good. I have a clean conscience and I never have to second guess my choices. Seems to me this equation works pretty well. I am confident that I am an upstanding member of society and that no one could ever accuse me of violence, disregard or selfishness.

As for the "some people" you mention in your list, just because they don't have it together doesn't mean that an innocent child should die for it.

Here's an idea. How about if a woman gets pregnant by "accident" (rolls eyes) she steps up to the plate and actually parents and supports the child she allowed to be concieved. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

If she isnt stable enough to do so, then adoption is still always an option.

As for the woman who was raped and concieved, these instances are considerably less than the woman who simply doesnt want her child. The argument is for the later. The rape victim could also choose to keep the child. After all it is her flesh and blood too. She could also choose to place the child for adoption.

I have to wonder...what do your own living children think of you and of the siblings they have lost and will never get to know?

Forcing people to have children when they don't want them is showing no regard for the child's life once it's born, where it can be put into situations such as poverty, neglect, and abuse. I'm going with the fetus not suffering during an abortion over a child forced into a life full of painful memories.

Jeanie

Juberoo wrote:

Now why is it the man who doesn't want the child labled as unloving, yet the woman who kills her unborn child via abortion is still a loving individual?

Don't see me labelling anybody anything here.

Guess if you live with labels that might be how you see it, but it's certainly not how I view things.

Jeanie

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Forcing people to have children when they don't want them is showing no regard for the child's life once it's born, where it can be put into situations such as poverty, neglect, and abuse. I'm going with the fetus not suffering during an abortion over a child forced into a life full of painful memories.

Thank you.

Eloquently put.

hippiemom

Juberoo wrote:

Well, lets see...I never killed any of my unborn children. I wanted all the children I have concieved and have raised them with great parenting skills because I am a responsible individual and was educated on such things as reproduction and morals. My life is pretty good. I have a clean conscience and I never have to second guess my choices. Seems to me this equation works pretty well. I am confident that I am an upstanding member of society and that no one could ever accuse me of violence, disregard or selfishness.

That's very nice, I'm happy for you. If you substitute the words "gave birth to" for "conceived," the entire paragraph applies to me as well. Let's pat ourselves on the back for a job well done, shall we?

Juberoo wrote:

As for the "some people" you mention in your list, just because they don't have it together doesn't mean that an innocent child should die for it.

Oh, you're right .... the world will be a much better place when more people who "don't have it together" become parents :rolleyes:

Juberoo wrote:

Here's an idea. How about if a woman gets pregnant by "accident" (rolls eyes) she steps up to the plate and actually parents and supports the child she allowed to be concieved. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Here's another idea. How about if everyone decides for themselves when a new life begins, rather than being bound by Juberoo's beliefs, and makes their personal decisions accordingly.

Juberoo wrote:

If she isnt stable enough to do so, then adoption is still always an option.

Adoption is sometimes a viable option. I've never heard anyone suggest that it isn't.

Juberoo wrote:

As for the woman who was raped and concieved, these instances are considerably less than the woman who simply doesnt want her child. The argument is for the later. The rape victim could also choose to keep the child. After all it is her flesh and blood too. She could also choose to place the child for adoption.

Easy enough for you to say.

Juberoo wrote:

I have to wonder...what do your own living children think of you and of the siblings they have lost and will never get to know?

My children (both now adults) don't think of lost siblings because they don't have any. They both understand the fetal development process and they don't believe in the supernatural, so they quite naturally don't think that conception is anything other than one step in the endless continuity of life. I'm confident that if you asked them, they would say that their own lives have been dramatically better in many ways because they were not born to a mother who was forced against her will to bear a rapist's child at the age of 17.

catefrances

Juberoo wrote:

As for the woman who was raped and concieved, these instances are considerably less than the woman who simply doesnt want her child. The argument is for the later. The rape victim could also choose to keep the child. After all it is her flesh and blood too. She could also choose to place the child for adoption.

have you ever been the victim of rape? short of murder and torture, it is the most heinous crime that can be perpetrated against another person, man or woman. it is a crime of absolute power against a victim weaker than the rapist. sure some women are strong enough to give birth and even raise the child of their rapist. but there are others who have enough trouble dealing with what happened to them, let alone the added 'bonus' of a constant reminder of the violence they've been subjected to.

wavescamecrashing

If conservatives want to send women to jail for having an abortion, why dont they just let the taliban take over the country? you want to reduce a woman's rights then learn from them. idiots.

What about girls who take the morning after pill? you cant prove they are pregnant but ive heard arguments that say its on par with abortion because you eliminate the possibility of a pregancy. If thats the case, anyone who has used contraception could be jailed. if you're going to be pro life, dont pick and choose the lives you protect eh?

Where sex is consensual:
i think women and men have the duty to absolutely insist on contraception.

Women:STDS. Because there is always the chance you alone will carry the can for an unwanted pregnancy, protect yourself in the first place. If contraception fails, as it does occasionally, take the morning after pill. If that doesnt work, abortion is one of the options available, depending on your circumstances at that time. What guys have to remember is, they can be as supportive as they can be during pregnancy, but can still walk away from the child and the mother. The CSA doesnt do much.

Men: Because you dont want to become a father, because some girls are bitches and tell you they are on the pill but arent, because of STDs Because you dont want the decision to bring your child into the world to be taken out of your hands.

Bringing new life into the world is one of the biggest things people do. shouldnt they have the choice to do so in the best way they possibly can? Do you want to jail parents who dont love or want their kids, who regret the moment they set eyes on the mother/father of their child? Being pro choice protects conservative family values...does it not?

pro lifers need to understand that no woman goes into an abortion lightly and that forcing them to have an unwanted child is evil.

As for the people who say, have the baby and give it up for adoption. As I woman i know that carrying a child in my womb for 9 months and giving birth to it will want to ensure that it will stay by my side, that's nature. I think adoption is harder than abortion, for both child and mother... thats just from my life experiences. Its not all as rosy as the pro lifers pretend it is...

wavescamecrashing

another thing:

people who are pregnant due to rape are victims and do not need to be made to feel like a criminal for getting rid of every trace of that experience.

rapists should have their balls cut off.

Juberoo

Jeanie wrote:

Don't see me labelling anybody anything here.

Guess if you live with labels that might be how you see it, but it's certainly not how I view things.

Jeanne, don't be coy. You stated "daddy didn't love me". Your words not mine. You are quick to judge a man for walking out on a child he doesn't want, but refuse to see the vulgarity of a woman who kills a child she doesn't want. After all, by your reasoning, the man walked out on a fetus...he never knew the "child".

Juberoo

catefrances wrote:

have you ever been the victim of rape? short of murder and torture, it is the most heinous crime that can be perpetrated against another person, man or woman. it is a crime of absolute power against a victim weaker than the rapist. sure some women are strong enough to give birth and even raise the child of their rapist. but there are others who have enough trouble dealing with what happened to them, let alone the added 'bonus' of a constant reminder of the violence they've been subjected to.

No, actually my cousin was. I witnessed her unconditional love for her child....who by no fault of his own was brought into this world under less than desirable circumstances. He is a bright, beautiful human being. She is one of the most amazing women I have ever known. Furthermore, she doesn't consider him a reminder of her rape. She views him as precious because he is living. He is her child. The rapist merely donated a sperm.