God always answers prayer. He just doesn't always answer them how we want them. And if you assume that God is all powerful and all knowing, He is answering it the best that it can be answered. The (reason for the) answer just escapes our limited minds.
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So... God's best efforts is to communicate to us in a language that is far too complex for us to understand? He created us, didn't He? Then, why isn't He smart enough to know we don't have a clue on what He is saying?
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The response you give is the typical vague response we get from religious leaders and their followers. Not an answer at all... just a canned response to make us go away.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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So... God's best efforts is to communicate to us in a language that is far too complex for us to understand? He created us, didn't He? Then, why isn't He smart enough to know we don't have a clue on what He is saying?
...
The response you give is the typical vague response we get from religious leaders and their followers. Not an answer at all... just a canned response to make us go away.
well let's see, he gave us the bible and most people ignore that, so why does it matter? These threads are just set up so that a few people can bash religion. It seems you either want God to not exist or you want God to be at your beck and call and if he's not then he surely can't be real and he can't be right and people feel more justified in mocking Christianity.
The response is either vague, or it's the truth. There are things that happen that no one can explain, God hasn't come down and told me why he hasn't grown a limb back for someone. He hasn't explained why loved ones die either, or why he won't cure a disease. If you want a concrete answer, you won't find one.
My "canned response" isn't to make you go away, it's to attempt to answer a very difficult question. Believe me, I wish that it was clearer why certain things happen. I'm sure the singer who just lost his daughter when his son backed over her would love some answers other than, it's not meant to be. Sometimes, the answer we want isn't the answer we need and sometimes bad things do happen to good people. If all there is in our lives is the here and now, then yep...it sucks. If you believe there is more to living than this life, then you have to believe everything happens for a reason.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
...
So... God's best efforts is to communicate to us in a language that is far too complex for us to understand? He created us, didn't He? Then, why isn't He smart enough to know we don't have a clue on what He is saying?
...
The response you give is the typical vague response we get from religious leaders and their followers. Not an answer at all... just a canned response to make us go away.
We do have a clue...we choose to be willful and "outsmart" life. We'd rather live through ego than through harmony.
The paths to understanding have been clearly delineated in all religions since they began. And in all mystical traditions. Going to church on Sunday or otherwise paying lip service to living harmoniously doesn't entitle one to an integrated, peaceful and harmonious existence.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
have you ever heard of a dude getting his leg amputated and then by the divine grace of god, he miraculously wakes up one morning after days and nights of praying to find his missing limb has returned?
well let's see, he gave us the bible and most people ignore that, so why does it matter? These threads are just set up so that a few people can bash religion. It seems you either want God to not exist or you want God to be at your beck and call and if he's not then he surely can't be real and he can't be right and people feel more justified in mocking Christianity.
here's a newsflash...god didn't write the bible, people did.
have you ever heard of a dude getting his leg amputated and then by the divine grace of god, he miraculously wakes up one morning after days and nights of praying to find his missing limb has returned?
me neither.
It sounds like you have a slim definition of the concept "heal"...
If you can expand your view, you might see some very interesting things!!
(ever see Field of Dreams!!?? )
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
have you ever heard of a dude getting his leg amputated and then by the divine grace of god, he miraculously wakes up one morning after days and nights of praying to find his missing limb has returned?
me neither.
Spiritual healing is far more important than physical. It may be hard to understand, but I believe that to be true.
well let's see, he gave us the bible and most people ignore that, so why does it matter? These threads are just set up so that a few people can bash religion. It seems you either want God to not exist or you want God to be at your beck and call and if he's not then he surely can't be real and he can't be right and people feel more justified in mocking Christianity.
The response is either vague, or it's the truth. There are things that happen that no one can explain, God hasn't come down and told me why he hasn't grown a limb back for someone. He hasn't explained why loved ones die either, or why he won't cure a disease. If you want a concrete answer, you won't find one.
My "canned response" isn't to make you go away, it's to attempt to answer a very difficult question. Believe me, I wish that it was clearer why certain things happen. I'm sure the singer who just lost his daughter when his son backed over her would love some answers other than, it's not meant to be. Sometimes, the answer we want isn't the answer we need and sometimes bad things do happen to good people. If all there is in our lives is the here and now, then yep...it sucks. If you believe there is more to living than this life, then you have to believe everything happens for a reason.
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God didn't give us the Bible... the Jews gave us the Bible. Which sort of conviently explains why the Jews are the 'Chosen People'. And if the answers are in the Bible... they are certainly vague, at best. And please... spare me the poor, poor persecuted Christianity crap. I'm not 'bashing' it... I'm questioning it.
And your original statement said God ALWAYS answers our prayers... but, in a method our limited minds cannot comprehend. What kind of crap is that? Answer the prayers and show us... instead of answering us in some sort of gibberish we will never acknowledge. If that is the case... God really is not a very good perfect Creator.
It is a canned response because I've heard it all before... and before that... and before that. And if you are unable to answer a complex question... just say, "I don't know". Don't try to come up with some vague response about how God is too stupid to see that His creation is too stupid to understand Him. The way it come out is similar to me, talking to my cat. I know she doesn't understand what I say... but, she sure does understand the sound of the can opener. I don't think God created us to be His pets.
And yes.. things happen. Death is a natural occurance to ALL living things. The reason why that singer's daughter was killed was because she crossed the path of a moving vehicle. God did not push her under the wheels. And yes... bad things happen to good people everyday... God is not to blame. It is all left to random interaction or occurance, so God is off the hook.
The belief in God should be the acceptance of His love... not the directives of the churches founded in His name. He does not command that we love Him... he loves us... unconditionally... no strings attached. God is not as petty as Man. That's why i give Him a break and never lay my bullshit upon his shoulders.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
It sounds like you have a slim definition of the concept "heal"...
If you can expand your view, you might see some very interesting things!!
(ever see Field of Dreams!!?? )
i think this is not where we are not seeing eye to eye (or amputated limb to amputated limb, as per this thread). if it were me, and i had an amputated leg, my guess is that if i did pray, it would be for me to have my leg again.
people get prosthetic limbs, but thats a result of science, not god or religion. i guess our definition of heal isnt the same.
Spiritual healing is far more important than physical. It may be hard to understand, but I believe that to be true.
mental too!! however, spiritual does trump them all...with spiritual healing, all things are possible....literally....one taps the field of all possibilities, and is no longer tied to limits, separation, pain etc. Whether we've got 4 limbs, 2 or 9.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
i think this is not where we are not seeing eye to eye (or amputated limb to amputated limb, as per this thread). if it were me, and i had an amputated leg, my guess is that if i did pray, it would be for me to have my leg again.
people get prosthetic limbs, but thats a result of science, not god or religion. i guess our definition of heal isnt the same.
I understand. Is it possible that as you adapted to your life, and came to terms with your situation, you might heal any false beliefs that you are not okay without a limb?
I assert that that is exactly what healthy adaptation/evolution is about. Coming to terms with what happens. It's the only way to be realistic and at peace with one's life.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
...
God didn't give us the Bible... the Jews gave us the Bible. Which sort of conviently explains why the Jews are the 'Chosen People'. And if the answers are in the Bible... they are certainly vague, at best. And please... spare me the poor, poor persecuted Christianity crap. I'm not 'bashing' it... I'm questioning it.
And your original statement said God ALWAYS answers our prayers... but, in a method our limited minds cannot comprehend. What kind of crap is that? Answer the prayers and show us... instead of answering us in some sort of gibberish we will never acknowledge. If that is the case... God really is not a very good perfect Creator.
It is a canned response because I've heard it all before... and before that... and before that. And if you are unable to answer a complex question... just say, "I don't know". Don't try to come up with some vague response about how God is too stupid to see that His creation is too stupid to understand Him. The way it come out is similar to me, talking to my cat. I know she doesn't understand what I say... but, she sure does understand the sound of the can opener. I don't think God created us to be His pets.
And yes.. things happen. Death is a natural occurance to ALL living things. The reason why that singer's daughter was killed was because she crossed the path of a moving vehicle. God did not push her under the wheels. And yes... bad things happen to good people everyday... God is not to blame. It is all left to random interaction or occurance, so God is off the hook.
The belief in God should be the acceptance of His love... not the directives of the churches founded in His name. He does not command that we love Him... he loves us... unconditionally... no strings attached. God is not as petty as Man. That's why i give Him a break and never lay my bullshit upon his shoulders.
I am not religious by any means.
But.
Why should God sound the can opener when he performs a miracle or answer a prayer? You agree that he does not want us as pets...why should he treat us like one?
Seems that he/she/it would rather we think for ourselves.
I am trying to figure out the argument contained in this video, using, as the video suggested, my critical thinking skills I learned in college. It seems to be nothing more than a weak argument from evil. Maybe it is this:
1. Christians believe in a God that answers prayers
2. Some amputees pray for new limbs, but God doesn’t answer.
3. Therefore….
Therefore what? It doesn’t follow that God is imaginary, as the video suggests. To be honest, nothing really follows from this. Maybe some Christians believe God answers every prayer. If that is the case the most the argument could prove is that some Christians are wrong in believing this, because obviously not every prayer is answered by God, be it from an amputee or someone else.
But perhaps the argument is this:
1. If there is a God, then he would answer prayer
2. Amputees pray for new limbs but do not get them
3. Therefore, there is no God
Still this is lacking. Does the arguer mean to say God answers every prayer? Who says God answers every prayer, and in the way we expect him to? As I kid I prayed for my very own E.T. after watching the movie, but alas, my prayer went unanswered. But God in his infinite wisdom sent me a Dalmatian puppy instead, and there was much rejoicing… Maybe the arguer can throw in some mention of Christ’s words in John 14 or something, but you can read it yourself to see if it is an avenue worth pursuing to strengthen the argument.
In fact, I’m not sure that the video is trying to establish an argument that God is imaginary, it just kinda claims he is at the end. Maybe the video is just proposing a few questions for the believer to consider, which is fine, they are important questions, but not ones that after critical thinking should make me abandon my faith and join American Atheists. With that, I’ll end my attempt to be an analytic philosopher.
I am trying to figure out the argument contained in this video, using, as the video suggested, my critical thinking skills I learned in college. It seems to be nothing more than a weak argument from evil. Maybe it is this:
1. Christians believe in a God that answers prayers
2. Some amputees pray for new limbs, but God doesn’t answer.
3. Therefore….
Therefore what? It doesn’t follow that God is imaginary, as the video suggests. To be honest, nothing really follows from this. Maybe some Christians believe God answers every prayer. If that is the case the most the argument could prove is that some Christians are wrong in believing this, because obviously not every prayer is answered by God, be it from an amputee or someone else.
But perhaps the argument is this:
1. If there is a God, then he would answer prayer
2. Amputees pray for new limbs but do not get them
3. Therefore, there is no God
Still this is lacking. Does the arguer mean to say God answers every prayer? Who says God answers every prayer, and in the way we expect him to? As I kid I prayed for my very own E.T. after watching the movie, but alas, my prayer went unanswered. But God in his infinite wisdom sent me a Dalmatian puppy instead, and there was much rejoicing… Maybe the arguer can throw in some mention of Christ’s words in John 14 or something, but you can read it yourself to see if it is an avenue worth pursuing to strengthen the argument.
In fact, I’m not sure that the video is trying to establish an argument that God is imaginary, it just kinda claims he is at the end. Maybe the video is just proposing a few questions for the believer to consider, which is fine, they are important questions, but not ones that after critical thinking should make me abandon my faith and join American Atheists. With that, I’ll end my attempt to be an analytic philosopher.
I think it was chopitdown who said God answers all prayers, just not to our will or necessarily how we'd like him to.
Before I was diagnosed with OCD, I was tormented by the disorder. I thought I was the only person who was controlled by some power from beyond to act out crazy behaviours. I believed I was horribly weak that I could not control my own behaviour. One night I laid in bed and prayed over and over: please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please.....etc (on for about 50 more pleases...) help me......
It brings tears to my eyes now remembering the desperation. I woke up the next day to the same debilitating OCD behaviours that caused me to live in a crippled fashion, unable to care for myself or my kids.
A few weeks later...a "miracle" happened...to me anyway. My boyfriend, who knew of my torment was walking through a book store and saw the book "The Boy Who Couldn't Stop Washing", which was a book that broke OCD in the public eye, and changed the way people looked at the disorder. Prior to this book, it was considered only one in 3,000 people had the disorder. This book showed that 2% of the population had it. Had it been 5 years earlier, or 6 months, this book would not have been in existence, much less prominently featured in the store. My boyfriend bought the book. He gave it to me, and my life changed completely. Within a few months, due to such dramatic change in myself, and due to the fact that the information in this book was SO empowering to me, I went to my local newspaper and got them to do an article on me, regarding living with OCD. They did the article, and due to it, my psychiatrist was swamped with people who once suffered in shame, who came out of the woodwork for treatment. OCD was once known as a disorder where sufferers hid their behaviours and did not seek treatment.
The day after my night of praying obsessively, I "knew" my prayers were unanswered....but not too long after, I began to see the little blessings and miracles I received all around me in each moment of each day.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Why should God sound the can opener when he performs a miracle or answer a prayer? You agree that he does not want us as pets...why should he treat us like one?
Seems that he/she/it would rather we think for ourselves.
...
That's my point. We are on our own and we have to decide which paths to take. God has not chosen one for us.
I, a Reg'lur Human Joe, can communicate with a cat through queues, such as the sound of a can of cat food being opened. I don't hear the cat's prayers for food... I feed her because she needs to be fed.
Yet, God... in all His Glory... cannot figure out that we are too feeble to understand Him. Yet... He created us!!! Well, then... why didn't He create us to understand Him?
Answer... because he didn't create us.
I believe that God is life. The same life that my cat has is the same life as mine. god is not restricted to Man alone. He is my cat's God, too. and we are not supposed to be His pets. I believe He just whats us to be kind to others and care about them.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
sweet sweet adeline....do you remember how, if you have one stick and are unable to touch it in any way...how you are able to make that very stick shorter??
answer: You put a longer stick beside it. That's the thing with logic once you have logic alongside the alogic that exists all around us....logic comes up limited. It is only part of understanding.
We may be "changing the argument but we're representing the answer to the question, like it or not!
If you want the answers to line up in a contrived way, that's about the human brain...not life, which is ripe with glory, beauty and mystery!!
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
~ Albert Einstein
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Who says God answers every prayer, and in the way we expect him to?
Statistically you'd expect at least a couple dozen amputees throughout the world every year would get new limbs from god if he truely answered prayers.
Otherwise finding answers to prayers from completely non-related requests is simply "looking on the bright side"?
"God gave me ass-cancer and I prayed for him to take away my ass-cancer. He gave me a puppy instead!" How can that be contorted into an answered prayer? You're logic is not logical. I guess that's what makes it "faith".
I think it was chopitdown who said God answers all prayers, just not to our will or necessarily how we'd like him to.
Before I was diagnosed with OCD, I was tormented by the disorder. I thought I was the only person who was controlled by some power from beyond to act out crazy behaviours. I believed I was horribly weak that I could not control my own behaviour. One night I laid in bed and prayed over and over: please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please.....etc (on for about 50 more pleases...) help me......
It brings tears to my eyes now remembering the desperation. I woke up the next day to the same debilitating OCD behaviours that caused me to live in a crippled fashion, unable to care for myself or my kids.
A few weeks later...a "miracle" happened...to me anyway. My boyfriend, who knew of my torment was walking through a book store and saw the book "The Boy Who Couldn't Stop Washing", which was a book that broke OCD in the public eye, and changed the way people looked at the disorder. Prior to this book, it was considered only one in 3,000 people had the disorder. This book showed that 2% of the population had it. Had it been 5 years earlier, or 6 months, this book would not have been in existence, much less prominently featured in the store. My boyfriend bought the book. He gave it to me, and my life changed completely. Within a few months, due to such dramatic change in myself, and due to the fact that the information in this book was SO empowering to me, I went to my local newspaper and got them to do an article on me, regarding living with OCD. They did the article, and due to it, my psychiatrist was swamped with people who once suffered in shame, who came out of the woodwork for treatment. OCD was once known as a disorder where sufferers hid their behaviours and did not seek treatment.
The day after my night of praying obsessively, I "knew" my prayers were unanswered....but not too long after, I began to see the little blessings and miracles I received all around me in each moment of each day.
...
I would give more credit to your boyfriend and his love for you... than God... on this one.
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But, yes... I agree... be thankful for everyday of life and take notice in the little things life has to offer. If God is life, then they are God's gifts, too.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Statistically you'd expect at least a couple dozen amputees throughout the world every year would get new limbs from god if he truely answered prayers.
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why would you expect it? Does it say anywhere that God heals a few amputees a year? Again, you've got God boxed into your logic. If the assumptions of omniscience and omnipotence hold true (and I'll assume no humans are omniscient or omnipotent) that's rather arrogant on our part, don't ya think?
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
SAN FRANCISCO–For as long as he can remember, 7-year-old Timmy Yu has had one precious dream: From the bottom of his heart, he has hoped against hope that God would someday hear his prayer to walk again. Though many thought Timmy's heavenly plea would never be answered, his dream finally came true Monday, when the Lord personally responded to the wheelchair-bound boy's prayer with a resounding no.
Wheelchair-bound Timmy Yu, who finally received his long-awaited reply from God. "I knew that if I just prayed hard enough, God would hear me," said the joyful Timmy, surrounded by stuffed animals sent by well-wishing Christians from around the globe, as he sat in the wheelchair to which he will be confined for the rest of his life. "And now my prayer has been answered. I haven't been this happy since before the accident, when I could walk and play with the other children like a normal boy."
God's response came at approximately 10 a.m. Monday, following a particularly fervent Sunday prayer session by little Timmy. Witnesses said God issued His miraculous answer in the form of a towering column of clouds, from which poured forth great beams of Divine light and the music of the Heavenly Hosts. The miraculous event took place in the Children's Special Care Ward of St. Luke's Hospital, where Timmy goes three times a week for an excruciating two-hour procedure to drain excess fluid from his damaged spinal column.
Said Angela Schlosser, a day nurse who witnessed the Divine Manifestation: "An incredible, booming voice said to Timmy, 'I am the Lord thy God, who created the rivers and the mountains, the heavens and the earth, the sun and the moon and the stars. Before Me sits My beloved child, whose faith is that of the mustard seed from which grows mighty and powerful things. My child, Timmy Yu, I say unto you thus: I have heard your prayers, and now I shall answer them. No, you cannot get out of your wheelchair. Not ever."
Paralyzed in a 1996 auto accident that also claimed the lives of both his parents, Timmy has served as a shining example to his fellow churchgoers at Lord In Heaven On High Church, inspiring others with his simple, heartfelt devotion. Now that Timmy has received an answer, Christians the world over are celebrating his story as a stirring testament to the power of faith.
"The Lord has answered a little boy's plea to know if he would ever walk again, and that answer was no," Rev. H. Newman Gunther of the San Francisco School Of Divinity said. "For years, this boy had been plagued by the question of whether or not he would ever walk, and now Our Lord, in his wisdom and mercy, has forever laid to rest any lingering doubt. Young Timmy can rest assured in the immutable truth that the Lord has bestowed upon him. Now and for all time, he finally knows that he will never escape the cruel prison of his chair of iron, for God hath willed it so. Praise be to God!"
Asked for comment, God said: "This kind-hearted child's simple prayer hath moved Me. Never before have I seen such faith. His trusting soul, so full of innocent devotion to Me, hath offered seventy times seven prayers asking, 'God? Can I please walk again?' It was indeed right and fitting that I, in My infinite wisdom, should share with him the One True Answer to this long-repeated question he put before Me."
"My will be done," God added.
Witnesses to the miracle said Timmy begged God for several minutes to change His mind and heal his shattered vertebrae, but the Lord stood firm.
"God strongly suggested that Timmy consider praying to one of the other intercessionary agents of Divine power, like Jesus, Mary or maybe even a top saint," Timmy's personal physician, Dr. William Luttrell, said. "The Lord stressed to Timmy that it was a long shot, but He said he might have better luck with one of them."
Despite all the attention he has received, Timmy remains humble in the face of his newfound notoriety as the only human ever to have a prayer directly answered by God Himself.
"I know that God loves me, because it says so in the Bible," Timmy said. "So right now, I am just glad that God took the time to answer my prayer. If only I could walk, this would be the greatest day of my life."
Statistically you'd expect at least a couple dozen amputees throughout the world every year would get new limbs from god if he truely answered prayers.
What does that mean, exactly? If God is real and answers prayers, then statistically we should expect to find a few new limbs growing on amputees? Uh, why? Is there some sort of quota God must meet between prayer requests and prayer fulfillment?
Furthermore, what is a "truely answered prayer"? One answered exactly as the prayer stipulates? Such as "Dear Lord, I want Pearl Jam to do a central Kentucky mini tour, starting this weekend in Louisville, then to Lexington (the Dame, not Rupp Arena...), then ending in my backyard for a three night stay in which they play all of the songs I have yet to hear live, such as Oceans, Of the Girl, Black Red Yellow, and even Tremor Christ. Oh, and Lord, could you make my 10C number lower so I can have a better seat when they come to play at my house?" Now, would a truely answered prayer be one that fulfills all of my requests, even the gift of changing my kinda crappy 10c number? And in the case of the amputee, is a truely answered prayer one in which limbs grow back? Just trying to find my way through the ambiguity...
Otherwise finding answers to prayers from completely non-related requests is simply "looking on the bright side"?
"God gave me ass-cancer and I prayed for him to take away my ass-cancer. He gave me a puppy instead!" How can that be contorted into an answered prayer? You're logic is not logical. I guess that's what makes it "faith".
Straw man arguments are not logical, my friend. In the case I gave, which really wasn't critical to my post, 99% of which you ignored, is that for the argument from the video to work, at least how I presented it, it needs the premise that God answers every prayer. I say there is no reason to accept such a claim, and my childish request for an extraterrestrial playmate is an example of that. Furthermore, many "unanswered" prayers may not be so unanswered after all ;in my case, I recieved a pretty puppy (but apparently mine was not truely answered). This however is another issue which would not affect what I had said earlier.
And sorry about the longwinded PJ rant, but I had to move away from the ass-cancer example.
SAN FRANCISCO–For as long as he can remember, 7-year-old Timmy Yu has had one precious dream: From the bottom of his heart, he has hoped against hope that God would someday hear his prayer to walk again. ...
Said Angela Schlosser, a day nurse who witnessed the Divine Manifestation: "An incredible, booming voice said to Timmy, 'I am the Lord thy God, who created the rivers and the mountains, the heavens and the earth, the sun and the moon and the stars. Before Me sits My beloved child, whose faith is that of the mustard seed from which grows mighty and powerful things. My child, Timmy Yu, I say unto you thus: I have heard your prayers, and now I shall answer them. No, you cannot get out of your wheelchair. Not ever."
...
...
This is actually something I think Christians, Jews, Muslims should use to explain the whole prayers thing.
Sometimes God's answer is "No". "No Timmy, you will never walk again... No, Mr. Singer, I won't make sense of the death of your daughter... No, I will not take your pain and suffering away. No explanation needed... Why? Because I'm God... bitches".
Okay... works for me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
So... God's best efforts is to communicate to us in a language that is far too complex for us to understand? He created us, didn't He? Then, why isn't He smart enough to know we don't have a clue on what He is saying?
...
The response you give is the typical vague response we get from religious leaders and their followers. Not an answer at all... just a canned response to make us go away.
Hail, Hail!!!
well let's see, he gave us the bible and most people ignore that, so why does it matter? These threads are just set up so that a few people can bash religion. It seems you either want God to not exist or you want God to be at your beck and call and if he's not then he surely can't be real and he can't be right and people feel more justified in mocking Christianity.
The response is either vague, or it's the truth. There are things that happen that no one can explain, God hasn't come down and told me why he hasn't grown a limb back for someone. He hasn't explained why loved ones die either, or why he won't cure a disease. If you want a concrete answer, you won't find one.
My "canned response" isn't to make you go away, it's to attempt to answer a very difficult question. Believe me, I wish that it was clearer why certain things happen. I'm sure the singer who just lost his daughter when his son backed over her would love some answers other than, it's not meant to be. Sometimes, the answer we want isn't the answer we need and sometimes bad things do happen to good people. If all there is in our lives is the here and now, then yep...it sucks. If you believe there is more to living than this life, then you have to believe everything happens for a reason.
The paths to understanding have been clearly delineated in all religions since they began. And in all mystical traditions. Going to church on Sunday or otherwise paying lip service to living harmoniously doesn't entitle one to an integrated, peaceful and harmonious existence.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
have you ever heard of a dude getting his leg amputated and then by the divine grace of god, he miraculously wakes up one morning after days and nights of praying to find his missing limb has returned?
me neither.
here's a newsflash...god didn't write the bible, people did.
If you can expand your view, you might see some very interesting things!!
(ever see Field of Dreams!!??
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Spiritual healing is far more important than physical. It may be hard to understand, but I believe that to be true.
God didn't give us the Bible... the Jews gave us the Bible. Which sort of conviently explains why the Jews are the 'Chosen People'. And if the answers are in the Bible... they are certainly vague, at best. And please... spare me the poor, poor persecuted Christianity crap. I'm not 'bashing' it... I'm questioning it.
And your original statement said God ALWAYS answers our prayers... but, in a method our limited minds cannot comprehend. What kind of crap is that? Answer the prayers and show us... instead of answering us in some sort of gibberish we will never acknowledge. If that is the case... God really is not a very good perfect Creator.
It is a canned response because I've heard it all before... and before that... and before that. And if you are unable to answer a complex question... just say, "I don't know". Don't try to come up with some vague response about how God is too stupid to see that His creation is too stupid to understand Him. The way it come out is similar to me, talking to my cat. I know she doesn't understand what I say... but, she sure does understand the sound of the can opener. I don't think God created us to be His pets.
And yes.. things happen. Death is a natural occurance to ALL living things. The reason why that singer's daughter was killed was because she crossed the path of a moving vehicle. God did not push her under the wheels. And yes... bad things happen to good people everyday... God is not to blame. It is all left to random interaction or occurance, so God is off the hook.
The belief in God should be the acceptance of His love... not the directives of the churches founded in His name. He does not command that we love Him... he loves us... unconditionally... no strings attached. God is not as petty as Man. That's why i give Him a break and never lay my bullshit upon his shoulders.
Hail, Hail!!!
i think this is not where we are not seeing eye to eye (or amputated limb to amputated limb, as per this thread). if it were me, and i had an amputated leg, my guess is that if i did pray, it would be for me to have my leg again.
people get prosthetic limbs, but thats a result of science, not god or religion. i guess our definition of heal isnt the same.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
but when you have an amputated leg, you are damaged physically, not spiritually.
edit: also, you guys are changing the argument.
I assert that that is exactly what healthy adaptation/evolution is about. Coming to terms with what happens. It's the only way to be realistic and at peace with one's life.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I am not religious by any means.
But.
Why should God sound the can opener when he performs a miracle or answer a prayer? You agree that he does not want us as pets...why should he treat us like one?
Seems that he/she/it would rather we think for ourselves.
1. Christians believe in a God that answers prayers
2. Some amputees pray for new limbs, but God doesn’t answer.
3. Therefore….
Therefore what? It doesn’t follow that God is imaginary, as the video suggests. To be honest, nothing really follows from this. Maybe some Christians believe God answers every prayer. If that is the case the most the argument could prove is that some Christians are wrong in believing this, because obviously not every prayer is answered by God, be it from an amputee or someone else.
But perhaps the argument is this:
1. If there is a God, then he would answer prayer
2. Amputees pray for new limbs but do not get them
3. Therefore, there is no God
Still this is lacking. Does the arguer mean to say God answers every prayer? Who says God answers every prayer, and in the way we expect him to? As I kid I prayed for my very own E.T. after watching the movie, but alas, my prayer went unanswered. But God in his infinite wisdom sent me a Dalmatian puppy instead, and there was much rejoicing… Maybe the arguer can throw in some mention of Christ’s words in John 14 or something, but you can read it yourself to see if it is an avenue worth pursuing to strengthen the argument.
In fact, I’m not sure that the video is trying to establish an argument that God is imaginary, it just kinda claims he is at the end. Maybe the video is just proposing a few questions for the believer to consider, which is fine, they are important questions, but not ones that after critical thinking should make me abandon my faith and join American Atheists. With that, I’ll end my attempt to be an analytic philosopher.
good post, i even chuckled a bit.
Before I was diagnosed with OCD, I was tormented by the disorder. I thought I was the only person who was controlled by some power from beyond to act out crazy behaviours. I believed I was horribly weak that I could not control my own behaviour. One night I laid in bed and prayed over and over: please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please.....etc (on for about 50 more pleases...) help me......
It brings tears to my eyes now remembering the desperation. I woke up the next day to the same debilitating OCD behaviours that caused me to live in a crippled fashion, unable to care for myself or my kids.
A few weeks later...a "miracle" happened...to me anyway. My boyfriend, who knew of my torment was walking through a book store and saw the book "The Boy Who Couldn't Stop Washing", which was a book that broke OCD in the public eye, and changed the way people looked at the disorder. Prior to this book, it was considered only one in 3,000 people had the disorder. This book showed that 2% of the population had it. Had it been 5 years earlier, or 6 months, this book would not have been in existence, much less prominently featured in the store. My boyfriend bought the book. He gave it to me, and my life changed completely. Within a few months, due to such dramatic change in myself, and due to the fact that the information in this book was SO empowering to me, I went to my local newspaper and got them to do an article on me, regarding living with OCD. They did the article, and due to it, my psychiatrist was swamped with people who once suffered in shame, who came out of the woodwork for treatment. OCD was once known as a disorder where sufferers hid their behaviours and did not seek treatment.
The day after my night of praying obsessively, I "knew" my prayers were unanswered....but not too long after, I began to see the little blessings and miracles I received all around me in each moment of each day.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Like what? Can you think of anything modern or will you go straight for the big bang?
That's my point. We are on our own and we have to decide which paths to take. God has not chosen one for us.
I, a Reg'lur Human Joe, can communicate with a cat through queues, such as the sound of a can of cat food being opened. I don't hear the cat's prayers for food... I feed her because she needs to be fed.
Yet, God... in all His Glory... cannot figure out that we are too feeble to understand Him. Yet... He created us!!! Well, then... why didn't He create us to understand Him?
Answer... because he didn't create us.
I believe that God is life. The same life that my cat has is the same life as mine. god is not restricted to Man alone. He is my cat's God, too. and we are not supposed to be His pets. I believe He just whats us to be kind to others and care about them.
Hail, Hail!!!
answer: You put a longer stick beside it. That's the thing with logic once you have logic alongside the alogic that exists all around us....logic comes up limited. It is only part of understanding.
We may be "changing the argument but we're representing the answer to the question, like it or not!
If you want the answers to line up in a contrived way, that's about the human brain...not life, which is ripe with glory, beauty and mystery!!
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
~ Albert Einstein
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Statistically you'd expect at least a couple dozen amputees throughout the world every year would get new limbs from god if he truely answered prayers.
Otherwise finding answers to prayers from completely non-related requests is simply "looking on the bright side"?
"God gave me ass-cancer and I prayed for him to take away my ass-cancer. He gave me a puppy instead!" How can that be contorted into an answered prayer? You're logic is not logical. I guess that's what makes it "faith".
I would give more credit to your boyfriend and his love for you... than God... on this one.
...
But, yes... I agree... be thankful for everyday of life and take notice in the little things life has to offer. If God is life, then they are God's gifts, too.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.newsnet5.com/health/16363548/detail.html...7 days ago recent enough?
why would you expect it? Does it say anywhere that God heals a few amputees a year? Again, you've got God boxed into your logic. If the assumptions of omniscience and omnipotence hold true (and I'll assume no humans are omniscient or omnipotent) that's rather arrogant on our part, don't ya think?
'No,' Says God
December 9, 1998 | Issue 34•19
SAN FRANCISCO–For as long as he can remember, 7-year-old Timmy Yu has had one precious dream: From the bottom of his heart, he has hoped against hope that God would someday hear his prayer to walk again. Though many thought Timmy's heavenly plea would never be answered, his dream finally came true Monday, when the Lord personally responded to the wheelchair-bound boy's prayer with a resounding no.
Wheelchair-bound Timmy Yu, who finally received his long-awaited reply from God. "I knew that if I just prayed hard enough, God would hear me," said the joyful Timmy, surrounded by stuffed animals sent by well-wishing Christians from around the globe, as he sat in the wheelchair to which he will be confined for the rest of his life. "And now my prayer has been answered. I haven't been this happy since before the accident, when I could walk and play with the other children like a normal boy."
God's response came at approximately 10 a.m. Monday, following a particularly fervent Sunday prayer session by little Timmy. Witnesses said God issued His miraculous answer in the form of a towering column of clouds, from which poured forth great beams of Divine light and the music of the Heavenly Hosts. The miraculous event took place in the Children's Special Care Ward of St. Luke's Hospital, where Timmy goes three times a week for an excruciating two-hour procedure to drain excess fluid from his damaged spinal column.
Said Angela Schlosser, a day nurse who witnessed the Divine Manifestation: "An incredible, booming voice said to Timmy, 'I am the Lord thy God, who created the rivers and the mountains, the heavens and the earth, the sun and the moon and the stars. Before Me sits My beloved child, whose faith is that of the mustard seed from which grows mighty and powerful things. My child, Timmy Yu, I say unto you thus: I have heard your prayers, and now I shall answer them. No, you cannot get out of your wheelchair. Not ever."
Paralyzed in a 1996 auto accident that also claimed the lives of both his parents, Timmy has served as a shining example to his fellow churchgoers at Lord In Heaven On High Church, inspiring others with his simple, heartfelt devotion. Now that Timmy has received an answer, Christians the world over are celebrating his story as a stirring testament to the power of faith.
"The Lord has answered a little boy's plea to know if he would ever walk again, and that answer was no," Rev. H. Newman Gunther of the San Francisco School Of Divinity said. "For years, this boy had been plagued by the question of whether or not he would ever walk, and now Our Lord, in his wisdom and mercy, has forever laid to rest any lingering doubt. Young Timmy can rest assured in the immutable truth that the Lord has bestowed upon him. Now and for all time, he finally knows that he will never escape the cruel prison of his chair of iron, for God hath willed it so. Praise be to God!"
Asked for comment, God said: "This kind-hearted child's simple prayer hath moved Me. Never before have I seen such faith. His trusting soul, so full of innocent devotion to Me, hath offered seventy times seven prayers asking, 'God? Can I please walk again?' It was indeed right and fitting that I, in My infinite wisdom, should share with him the One True Answer to this long-repeated question he put before Me."
"My will be done," God added.
Witnesses to the miracle said Timmy begged God for several minutes to change His mind and heal his shattered vertebrae, but the Lord stood firm.
"God strongly suggested that Timmy consider praying to one of the other intercessionary agents of Divine power, like Jesus, Mary or maybe even a top saint," Timmy's personal physician, Dr. William Luttrell, said. "The Lord stressed to Timmy that it was a long shot, but He said he might have better luck with one of them."
Despite all the attention he has received, Timmy remains humble in the face of his newfound notoriety as the only human ever to have a prayer directly answered by God Himself.
"I know that God loves me, because it says so in the Bible," Timmy said. "So right now, I am just glad that God took the time to answer my prayer. If only I could walk, this would be the greatest day of my life."
What does that mean, exactly? If God is real and answers prayers, then statistically we should expect to find a few new limbs growing on amputees? Uh, why? Is there some sort of quota God must meet between prayer requests and prayer fulfillment?
Furthermore, what is a "truely answered prayer"? One answered exactly as the prayer stipulates? Such as "Dear Lord, I want Pearl Jam to do a central Kentucky mini tour, starting this weekend in Louisville, then to Lexington (the Dame, not Rupp Arena...), then ending in my backyard for a three night stay in which they play all of the songs I have yet to hear live, such as Oceans, Of the Girl, Black Red Yellow, and even Tremor Christ. Oh, and Lord, could you make my 10C number lower so I can have a better seat when they come to play at my house?" Now, would a truely answered prayer be one that fulfills all of my requests, even the gift of changing my kinda crappy 10c number? And in the case of the amputee, is a truely answered prayer one in which limbs grow back? Just trying to find my way through the ambiguity...
Straw man arguments are not logical, my friend. In the case I gave, which really wasn't critical to my post, 99% of which you ignored, is that for the argument from the video to work, at least how I presented it, it needs the premise that God answers every prayer. I say there is no reason to accept such a claim, and my childish request for an extraterrestrial playmate is an example of that. Furthermore, many "unanswered" prayers may not be so unanswered after all ;in my case, I recieved a pretty puppy (but apparently mine was not truely answered). This however is another issue which would not affect what I had said earlier.
And sorry about the longwinded PJ rant, but I had to move away from the ass-cancer example.
This is actually something I think Christians, Jews, Muslims should use to explain the whole prayers thing.
Sometimes God's answer is "No". "No Timmy, you will never walk again... No, Mr. Singer, I won't make sense of the death of your daughter... No, I will not take your pain and suffering away. No explanation needed... Why? Because I'm God... bitches".
Okay... works for me.
Hail, Hail!!!
that was coldhearted yet hilarious. good work.