Is it possible to 'mentally rape' someone?

Heineken Helen

merlin401 wrote:

Ok, so you want to be able to go out, totally lose control of your ability to make sound decisions, and expect everyone around you (including strangers) to abide by the moral code you WOULD have had under sober conditions?

Sorry, that is irresponsable on your part.

Irresponsible... yes!

Responsible for what other people do... NO!

And it's not a moral code, it's the law.

farfromglorified

Heineken Helen wrote:

I have a right to drink as much as I want and expect people to NOT take advantage of me.

You have the right to any expectation you choose. You have no right to craft reality based on your expectations, however.

merlin401

Heineken Helen wrote:

Irresponsible... yes!

Responsible for what other people do... NO!

And it's not a moral code, it's the law.

So suppose some guy starts hitting on you while you're under the influence, you flirt back and eventually start up with him. Then later, when you're sober again, you say "oh, I didn't want that to happen", "he must have taken advantage of me". That is all brought upon yourself! Thats your fault for getting into that state; not his fault for being unable to a) determine how impaired you are and b) determine if under normal conditions you'd object to doing whatever you did with him.

Heineken Helen

merlin401 wrote:

So suppose some guy starts hitting on you while you're under the influence, you flirt back and eventually start up with him. Then later, when you're sober again, you say "oh, I didn't want that to happen", "he must have taken advantage of me". That is all brought upon yourself! Thats your fault for getting into that state; not his fault for being unable to a) determine how impaired you are and b) determine if under normal conditions you'd object to doing whatever you did with him.

:rolleyes: That's not the kinda scenario I'm talking about. Some men go out looking for women who are so drunk they won't know what they're doing. Other men don't realise she's incapable of consent - there's a difference and I'm aware of that. It may be my fault that I got into that state but what happens afterwards certainly isn't.

farfromglorified

Heineken Helen wrote:

I know that but please stop trying to define stuff cos it just doesn't work. And it's a bit patronising trying to explain to people who were raped what rape IS.

???

You asked me what I meant:

Heineken Helen wrote:

Lol, WHAT???? So the 'agreement' in a physical rape is that there IS no agreement?

So I explained. I did not intend to be patronising, nor did I intend to hurt your feelings.

Heineken Helen

farfromglorified wrote:

You have the right to any expectation you choose. You have no right to craft reality based on your expectations, however.

What???????????? Again riddles!!!!!!!! I DO have the right to expect people to respect me. I expect them to when I'm sober, why not when I'm drunk? And all too often men use that excuse you're using - well she got into that state, what did she expect?

merlin401

Heineken Helen wrote:

:rolleyes: That's not the kinda scenario I'm talking about. Some men go out looking for women who are so drunk they won't know what they're doing. Other men don't realise she's incapable of consent - there's a difference and I'm aware of that. .

Thats true, but the point is there is no way to prove the difference between the scumbags that go looking for drunk women and the guys who just didn't realize the girl was impaired etc.

Heineken Helen wrote:

It may be my fault that I got into that state but what happens afterwards certainly isn't.

Well thats not true. How about after you get in the car and drive away drunk you tell that to the cop who is giving you a DUI. You made a bad choice while impaired and pay the consequences. Whether your bad choice was to say "yes" to someone looking for sex or get behind the wheel, it was YOUR choice (even if you can't remember it)

Heineken Helen

farfromglorified wrote:

???

You asked me what I meant:



So I explained. I did not intend to be patronising, nor did I intend to hurt your feelings.

Sorry it was more of a rhetorical question... should have made that clearer.

And I KNOW you didn't intend but rape isn't just a few words - it doesn't fit into a certain definition... so ya can define away but it doesn't mean that YOUR opinion of what rape is is the only kind of rape there is.

farfromglorified

Heineken Helen wrote:

What???????????? Again riddles!!!!!!!! I DO have the right to expect people to respect me. I expect them to when I'm sober, why not when I'm drunk?

As I said, you DO have the right to any expectation you choose. However, just because you expect something doesn't mean it will happen.

And all too often men use that excuse you're using - well she got into that state, what did she expect?

Where did I use or give any support to that excuse?

Heineken Helen

merlin401 wrote:

Thats true, but the point is there is no way to prove the difference between the scumbags that go looking for drunk women and the guys who just didn't realize the girl was impaired etc.

I'm not talking about how to prove it - yes it's very hard. It's very hard to prove most cases of rape. But I certainly feel for guys who are accused of rape when he may not have known she was that drunk or because she regrets it the next morning. Yes the girl may be ashamed of sleeping with him but we've all been in that situation - ya don't go saying he raped you. If you did, you should be charged with the equivilent of rape imo.

merlin401 wrote:

Well thats not true. How about after you get in the car and drive away drunk you tell that to the cop who is giving you a DUI. You made a bad choice while impaired and pay the consequences. Whether your bad choice was to say "yes" to someone looking for sex or get behind the wheel, it was YOUR choice (even if you can't remember it)

NO, because I drove the car... which more than likely means I was standing, knew how to put the key in the ignition, etc. nobody did that for me. It's not the same thing.

Heineken Helen

farfromglorified wrote:

As I said, you DO have the right to any expectation you choose. However, just because you expect something doesn't mean it will happen.



Where did I use or give any support to that excuse?

You may not be actually using it as an excuse but you're pre-validating it for them by saying if I get too drunk it's my fault for getting that drunk. They will listen to so many men saying that and that is what they will hear. Not ME arguing that I can get as drunk as I want

farfromglorified

Heineken Helen wrote:

You may not be actually using it as an excuse but you're pre-validating it for them by saying if I get too drunk it's my fault for getting that drunk. They will listen to so many men saying that and that is what they will hear. Not ME arguing that I can get as drunk as I want

WTF?

Where am I "pre-validating" that excuse?

merlin401

Heineken Helen wrote:

NO, because I drove the car... which more than likely means I was standing, knew how to put the key in the ignition, etc. nobody did that for me. It's not the same thing.

Its not the same situation, but its the same principle of wanting to absolve yourself from the consequences of your drunken decisions.

Heineken Helen

merlin401 wrote:

Its not the same situation, but its the same principle of wanting to absolve yourself from the consequences of your drunken decisions.

No it's not. Because drink driving is a stupid decision, drunk sex is a stupid decision, getting so drunk that you don't know what you're doing is a stupid decision... but it does NOT allow anyone to do what they like to me while I'm IN that situation - because that's NOT my decision so I am NOT responsible. I know where you're coming from and I've argued this many times and won't change my mind.

Anyway, I'm going home.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

angelica wrote:

Many people have "weak" minds. We're entitled to be at whatever stage we are and not be abused or taken advantage of. At the same time, anyone who takes advantage and tramples boundaries also shows a weak mind. Both sides of this coin, unless they learn to become balanced and whole, will continue to seek the other side of the coin for balance.

Taking advantage of others, and being taken advantage of both show weakness. Both lack balance and an ability to be truly potent, boundaried and individual.

This is a great post.

I would think you'd agree. You are one of the few people on this board who shows you know this by your very actions. Therefore you show authentic strength. And somehow people sometimes misinterpret that strength as you harming them, and they give themselves license to harm you, seemingly not realising that they are only undermining their own selves and showing their own lack of strength by becoming the true abuser with their mistreatments. It's not a wonder classic fairytales contain the parts where the pure-of-heart hero must solve the riddles in order to pass through closed doors or other symbols of boundary. When we give ourselves permission to bombard the boundaries of another, we have failed the test. One shows a lack of defined individuality when they give themselves license to trample the boundaries of another. Conversely, one shows their own strength of personal boundary by the level of sacredness they treat the boundaries of others with.

I have respected you for your individuality and the resulting fairness with which you treat people, very much, right from the beginning. It shows your sense of centeredness (notice I strategically avoided saying self-centredness which is actually what others are showing)

angelica

I think Helen's point might be being overlooked. Women are not for raping. We are entitled to hold people to such an "ideal" and expect there to be consequences if this ideal is not met.

And I think the counter point is that the ideal does not always play out, and therefore we're not being realistic if we know we can be potentially raped at any point, and then we ignore that potentiality.

This comes down to the fact that many of us do all kinds of unconscious things that might be heard as a message that we're "looking for it" or that "we want 'it' ". Since we cannot police what we are unconscious of, and because we don't control what others interpret of our actions, a good rule is to stick with upfront, explicit consent as the one dependable decider for when sex is okay. Therefore "no" must be the decider that it is not okay. Women are responsible for using it; men are responsible for hearing and respecting it as the decider.

angelica

merlin401 wrote:

its not the same situation, but its the same principle of wanting to absolve yourself from the consequences of your drunken decisions.

I'm wondering if you are hearing Helen's point...If she drives drunk, she is responsible for driving drunk. If as a drunk driver she kills someone, she is responsible for getting drunk and killing someone. If she gets drunk and another person rapes her without her consent, she is not responsible for raping herself--rather the other person is responsible for raping her. She is responsible for being drunk, and yet that is a far cry from being responsible for rape.

When we know that it's possible to get raped in any situation--such as when drunk, or by walking the streets late at night, and we make a decision to trust the odds that it won't happen, we may or may not have poor judgment. In the end, having poor judgment is different than raping someone.

I did not hear Helen deny any accountability for her own drunken actions. She merely denied accountability for people she does not control.

merlin401

angelica wrote:

If she gets drunk and another person rapes her without her consent, she is not responsible for raping herself--rather the other person is responsible for raping her. She is responsible for being drunk, and yet that is a far cry from being responsible for rape.

That is fine by me. But the original post that got me responding to this line of thought was that a drunk woman CANNOT give consent to have sex, implying that any sex with a drunk person is tantamount to rape. And thats absurd. If you're so drunk that you end up saying "YES" to someone's advances, than it is not rape and it is your fault even if, after sobering up, you realize you really didn't want to have sex with that guy. So the only issues I'm talking about is a drunk person giving consent (just like a drunk person consenting to drive a car). Their (admittedly impaired) decision; their responsability.

farfromglorified

angelica wrote:

I would think you'd agree. You are one of the few people on this board who shows you know this by your very actions. Therefore you show authentic strength. And somehow people sometimes misinterpret that strength as you harming them, and they give themselves license to harm you, seemingly not realising that they are only undermining their own selves and showing their own lack of strength by becoming the true abuser with their mistreatments. It's not a wonder classic fairytales contain the parts where the pure-of-heart hero must solve the riddles in order to pass through closed doors or other symbols of boundary. When we give ourselves permission to bombard the boundaries of another, we have failed the test. One shows a lack of defined individuality when they give themselves license to trample the boundaries of another. Conversely, one shows their own strength of personal boundary by the level of sacredness they treat the boundaries of others with.

I have respected you for your individuality and the resulting fairness with which you treat people, very much, right from the beginning.

Thank you. I take this as a tremendous compliment and return it in kind.

It shows your sense of centeredness (notice I strategically avoided saying self-centredness which is actually what others are showing)

The opposite it true, my dear. And you describe why right here:

"seemingly not realising that they are only undermining their own selves and showing their own lack of strength by becoming the true abuser with their mistreatments"

baraka

angelica wrote:

Many people have "weak" minds. We're entitled to be at whatever stage we are and not be abused or taken advantage of. At the same time, anyone who takes advantage and tramples boundaries also shows a weak mind. Both sides of this coin, unless they learn to become balanced and whole, will continue to seek the other side of the coin for balance.

Taking advantage of others, and being taken advantage of both show weakness. Both lack balance and an ability to be truly potent, boundaried and individual.

What a brilliant & insightful post, angelica!