Thank you. I take this as a tremendous compliment and return it in kind.
You are welcome. I thought you knew I saw that about you. I very humbly accept that you return it in kind and I thank you for your keen insight!
The opposite it true, my dear. And you describe why right here:
"seemingly not realising that they are only undermining their own selves and showing their own lack of strength by becoming the true abuser with their mistreatments"
These are my definitions (oh and they are psychology's definitions too):
self=false self/ego, developed based on who we decided we "should" be based on what we learn in life.
Self=who we actually are. For many, most of the Self is unconscious because they will only accept the false self as being who they are--they've rejected other aspects of who they are that exist.
self-centred refers to being tied to the false self.
Being centered to me refers to being at one with all my energy, good, bad or indifferent, and to be grounded within one's individuality. Paradoxically, when one can find that centre--or what one has control of, one can find where one is not and what one does not control. One may then respect that and move through life quite unobstructed. When one is not aware who the truth of who one is, one finds their ignored and rejected aspects getting caught in all manner of ways in our entanglements around us. Since it is a process of unfolding and we are never perfect, if one learns how to be boundaried-meaning to not infringe and to not allow others to infringe--one can live freely and imperfectly without having to accept too much fallout.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Creepy question, but someone mentioned this to me a few years ago how it is possible to mentally rape someone as opposed to physically do it. I think this means actually getting someone to have sex with you, even though they really don't what to and that's made clear that you don't wanna do it. It could be something as simple as you don't want to have sex, but your partner does and so he/she puts some pressure on you to get what they want. And especially with men, they have to get a hard on before they can have sex so when a guy claims sometimes that their female boss put pressure on them to have sex and claim millions (though women in the same situation get a lot less money in compensation) is that still rape. I think it is. I have heard stories of men, and women who have said that they didn't feel like they were in the mood for it but went ahead because their other half did. That's happened to me, I felt pushed into it one time as it had been a while, but I didn't feel like it, but he insisted to the point where I felt I had to although he knew I didn't want to. And he himself said he felt pushed into it one time as his girlfriend just wouldn't stop until he did. I think this one is a
bit more extreme but I think it can be more subtle as well...
What do you guys think?
I know that i have done it on several occassions with my ex when i didn't want to. Because in the past when i had denied him, he would get angry and pout and start arguments with me. So, it became easier to just do it. I also think that i did feel mentally raped. I just always associated that feeling to being sexually abused as a child. So, i would say that it's all on how it makes you feel when it happens. Like if you feel like you've been raped, then yes, but if not then, no. Do you know what i'm saying? Also, i've never been physically raped, so i wonder if you've never been physically raped, can you really know mentally what it feels like to be raped? Am i making any sense?
I believe it is possible. For instance, many women in abusive relationships are afraid to say no. They feel the consequences would be physical abuse. While it is true it is their own responsiblility to say no, when in such a relationship it is not so easy. It involves the whole thing as to why they even stay in such relationships.
Also, I was once married to a man who would sexually assault me in my sleep. Its a long story and hard to explain, but he did things while I was asleep and I would occassionally awake. He would then quickly act as if he was sleeping. I would fake that I was back asleep, just to see if he was really doing this..and I will be damned...he was!!!
He was an abusive person, so I was afraid as to how to deal with it. It was many years ago and I was quite young. The kicker is that he was a virgin when I married him. We were both only 18. I was pregnant when we married.
The bastard did assault me in my sleep.
The entire abuse thing can make women do things they do not want to do. They end up doing it out of fear and all that goes with that.
I agree with this, and want to add that the possibility for mental abuse is another reason many people do not say no. It's easier to let the other person have what they want then deal with bad feelings or a verbal spat.
Make your life a mission - not an intermission. - Arnold Gasglow
That is fine by me. But the original post that got me responding to this line of thought was that a drunk woman CANNOT give consent to have sex, implying that any sex with a drunk person is tantamount to rape. And thats absurd. If you're so drunk that you end up saying "YES" to someone's advances, than it is not rape and it is your fault even if, after sobering up, you realize you really didn't want to have sex with that guy. So the only issues I'm talking about is a drunk person giving consent (just like a drunk person consenting to drive a car). Their (admittedly impaired) decision; their responsability.
Fair enough. I've personally always accepted what I've created for myself by deliberately dulling down my own consciousness with alcohol. Including the fact that I made half-conscious decisions.
I think the spirit of such laws is that there are predators who deliberately get someone drunk because they know they can "get" sex where there would not normally have a chance. Such "predators" are quite commonplace, from what I've heard, and by this I mean it's basically socially acceptable, even though it's weaselly and sexually assaultive.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The opposite it true, my dear. And you describe why right here:
"seemingly not realising that they are only undermining their own selves and showing their own lack of strength by becoming the true abuser with their mistreatments"
Oh, and by this quote, it is the Self who undermines the self. The unconscious and higher Self contains the human potential and connection to universal ideals. This aspect, Self, throws the self under the bus to teach the self a lesson. The self must repeat the pattern over and over until they get the lesson of their higher and unconscious Self. Of course many would rather stick to justifications and blame rather than solve their life riddles.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Creepy question, but someone mentioned this to me a few years ago how it is possible to mentally rape someone as opposed to physically do it. I think this means actually getting someone to have sex with you, even though they really don't what to and that's made clear that you don't wanna do it. It could be something as simple as you don't want to have sex, but your partner does and so he/she puts some pressure on you to get what they want. And especially with men, they have to get a hard on before they can have sex so when a guy claims sometimes that their female boss put pressure on them to have sex and claim millions (though women in the same situation get a lot less money in compensation) is that still rape. I think it is. I have heard stories of men, and women who have said that they didn't feel like they were in the mood for it but went ahead because their other half did. That's happened to me, I felt pushed into it one time as it had been a while, but I didn't feel like it, but he insisted to the point where I felt I had to although he knew I didn't want to. And he himself said he felt pushed into it one time as his girlfriend just wouldn't stop until he did. I think this one is a bit more extreme but I think it can be more subtle as well...
What do you guys think?
Legally, mental coercion is rape. 9 of 10 rapes are date rapes that occur with little physical aggression and a lot of mental coercion. It's rape.
If you remember that the will of the person is aligned to the false self which is "self" (in psychological or my own terms), it is self-centered. And by being self-centered, they are not Self-centered, or centered. If I align all of my energy to a hair on my head and it's purposes, I'm not aligned to the fullness of who I am. Therefore I'm not truly centered.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
If you remember that the will of the person is aligned to the false self which is "self" (in psychological or my own terms), it is self-centered. And by being self-centered, they are not Self-centered, or centered. If I align all of my energy to a hair on my head and it's purposes, I'm not aligned to the fullness of who I am. Therefore I'm not truly centered.
Whenever you align your energy against a part of your s/Self, you're not being truly s/Self-centered. Such is the nature of any contradiction
I know that i have done it on several occassions with my ex when i didn't want to. Because in the past when i had denied him, he would get angry and pout and start arguments with me. So, it became easier to just do it. I also think that i did feel mentally raped. I just always associated that feeling to being sexually abused as a child. So, i would say that it's all on how it makes you feel when it happens. Like if you feel like you've been raped, then yes, but if not then, no. Do you know what i'm saying? Also, i've never been physically raped, so i wonder if you've never been physically raped, can you really know mentally what it feels like to be raped? Am i making any sense?
I've been in both situations, and in the former I didn't feel that I'd been raped. It was more of a trade-off ... he wanted to get laid, and I wanted him to shut the fuck up, and we both got what we wanted. It's not as though I didn't have options. I could have left, thrown him out, put on some headphones, let the argument escalate into a shouting match, etc. It was my choice to handle it the way I did. I'd choose differently today, but at the time it seemed like the thing to do.
Being afraid that a guy might never stop bitching is a lot different than being afraid he'll beat you bloody (or worse). I just want to make it clear here that I'm talking about men with no history of violence. With men who are known abusers, any argument amounts to a threat of physical force.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I believe this is known as "thread creep". We'll take this back to where it belongs
Oh, I fully apologise. I do believe my Self was throwing me under the bus as I continue to forget which thread is which between these two! Honestly! (when baraka showed up, I was going to comment on her darn philosophy thread, but then I realised that it was not that thread!)
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
know that i have done it on several occassions with my ex when i didn't want to. Because in the past when i had denied him, he would get angry and pout and start arguments with me. So, it became easier to just do it. I also think that i did feel mentally raped. I just always associated that feeling to being sexually abused as a child. So, i would say that it's all on how it makes you feel when it happens. Like if you feel like you've been raped, then yes, but if not then, no. Do you know what i'm saying? Also, i've never been physically raped, so i wonder if you've never been physically raped, can you really know mentally what it feels like to be raped? Am i making any sense?
I've been in both situations, and in the former I didn't feel that I'd been raped. It was more of a trade-off ... he wanted to get laid, and I wanted him to shut the fuck up, and we both got what we wanted. It's not as though I didn't have options. I could have left, thrown him out, put on some headphones, let the argument escalate into a shouting match, etc. It was my choice to handle it the way I did. I'd choose differently today, but at the time it seemed like the thing to do.
Being afraid that a guy might never stop bitching is a lot different than being afraid he'll beat you bloody (or worse). I just want to make it clear here that I'm talking about men with no history of violence. With men who are known abusers, any argument amounts to a threat of physical force.
Very tactfully handled.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Though I have no experience with it, my take is that rape is less about the sexual act than it is about power & control over someone else. Forgive me if I'm way off base but that is my take. With rape, the sexual act is the end result of one person attempting to physically control and conquer another (and yes, the mental wounds last far longer). There is mental abuse involved when pressuing someone to have sex when they don't want to or have their doubts but I wouldn't consider it rape. To clearly say 'no' and have it forced upon you is rape.
agreed.
rape is all about power and to some degree, hatred.....and merely manifests itself through sex.
I don't know, but in further thinking about this, it seems we think if a woman says no, then its no...but what is wrong with making sure she says yes! I think she should be asked and actually say yes, and mean it, not out of fear but because she means yes.
There are many cases of rape where a woman did not say no because of the threat...but she did not say yes either.
I think she needs to say yes, or leave her alone!
I don't know, but in further thinking about this, it seems we think if a woman says no, then its no...but what is wrong with making sure she says yes! I think she should be asked and actually say yes, and mean it, not out of fear but because she means yes.
There are many cases of rape where a woman did not say no because of the threat...but she did not say yes either.
I think she needs to say yes, or leave her alone!
If I were a male, I'd be very particular about having distinct consent as you talk about, Heather!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Well thats obvious, yes. But the poster is saying that the "rape victim" is fully aware and they just got talked into it or badged into it. No way that is rape. The way some people are giving their definitions it would be like
"Honey, can we have sex"
"Um, no"
"Oh please, you look so beautiful tonight"
"Ok, sure lets go"
is rape. Thats ridiculous.
I don't think the dialogue that takes place is anything like that at all. I know that you are only giving an example of something that could take place. As one poster say, if the person makes it clear that they just don't want to,or don't feel like it, and the person pleads and badgers you, then it is kinda crossing the line, don't you think?
I don't think the dialogue that takes place is anything like that at all. I know that you are only giving an example of something that could take place. As one poster say, if the person makes it clear that they just don't want to,or don't feel like it, and the person pleads and badgers you, then it is kinda crossing the line, don't you think?
It is crossing the line. However when you let them cross the line, and reward them for it by giving in and showing support for them crossing that line, that is showing weak boundaries, which are the responsibility of the person with weak boundaries. When two people are involved, there are two people who are 100% responsible for their actions.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
If I were a male, I'd be very particular about having distinct consent as you talk about, Heather!
Me too! The message about date rape and all keeps preaching that no means no, but never talks about did she say yes.
I think a verbal yes would solve a lot of these issues.
I wanted to resurrect that thread because I was reading about Barak Obama on Wiki and noticed this:
Obama writes about smoking marijuana and using cocaine during his teenage years to "push questions of who I was out of my mind."
This goes to reinforce what I was saying earlier in that thread about multi-racial youth having a greater chance of committing crimes and using drugs because of issues about their identity. The statistics I posted earlier in that thread were laughed at, and I developed a complex over it.
Creepy question, but someone mentioned this to me a few years ago how it is possible to mentally rape someone as opposed to physically do it. I think this means actually getting someone to have sex with you, even though they really don't what to and that's made clear that you don't wanna do it. It could be something as simple as you don't want to have sex, but your partner does and so he/she puts some pressure on you to get what they want. And especially with men, they have to get a hard on before they can have sex so when a guy claims sometimes that their female boss put pressure on them to have sex and claim millions (though women in the same situation get a lot less money in compensation) is that still rape. I think it is. I have heard stories of men, and women who have said that they didn't feel like they were in the mood for it but went ahead because their other half did. That's happened to me, I felt pushed into it one time as it had been a while, but I didn't feel like it, but he insisted to the point where I felt I had to although he knew I didn't want to. And he himself said he felt pushed into it one time as his girlfriend just wouldn't stop until he did. I think this one is a bit more extreme but I think it can be more subtle as well...
What do you guys think?
that's ridiculous. any sex in marriage would be rape then, cos you know they only do it out of obligation and would rather not.
Don't be ridiculous. Not all rape is the violent kind and not all victims believe they're gonna be killed or hurt badly. It may not be the kind of rape that would usually end up in court but it would still fall under the definition of rape. If you dont want to have sex with somebody and tell them so and they go ahead anyway, it's rape.
yeah, but it should be clear that the victim has said "no" to the proposal of sex... but physical danger, as you said, is not necessary so as to be a rape victim.
If someone clearly indicates that they don't want to have sex, then I'd say that's rape. I doubt it could be proven, but to me, it's rape.
"in one survey of women undergraduates, 39% reported that they had said 'no' when they meant yes, and 61% of the sexually experienced women in the survey said that they had done so. 90% of those women said that fear of appearing promiscuous was an important reason for their behavior. Many said they wanted their dated to wait or 'talk me into it,' and some said that they told their dates 'no' becos they 'wanted him to be more physically aggressive."
- Kadish, criminal law and its processes.
are men truly at fault for being rapists, or are women at fault for telling us that no doesn't always mean no and wanting us to be more aggressive and work for it before giving it up?
Since there is a psychological element to sexual assault, all rape by virtue of commission is "mental". The physical component is easilly measured...bruises, cuts, tears, injuries. It's often the softer side of the attack that gets overlooked or discounted. By softer, I mean the psychological and emotional scarring that cannot be readily qualified or quantified.
You see a woman who has been brutally raped, it is "easy" to understand the physical pain component. But without being a victim of such a coarse personal violation, the psychological/mental/emotional component is not as easily understood by most.
Since there is a psychological element to sexual assault, all rape by virtue of commission is "mental". The physical component is easilly measured...bruises, cuts, tears, injuries. It's often the softer side of the attack that gets overlooked or discounted. By softer, I mean the psychological and emotional scarring that cannot be readily qualified or quantified.
You see a woman who has been brutally raped, it is "easy" to understand the physical pain component. But without being a victim of such a coarse personal violation, the psychological/mental/emotional component is not as easily understood by most.
how do you measure that in order to throw some guy in jail for years and leave him marked a rapist for the rest of his life? a guy's drunk, wants to get laid, whines, begs, and pleads for it, and now he's a rapist for life... that hardly seems fair. women wanted equality. they claim they are the equal of men. that means they can say no and mean it. that means that if words induce them to sex, it is their problem. giving in becos you're annoyed or afraid he'll dump you is not good enough to ruin a guy's life with a rape charge. if you dont want to, say no. if he persists, kick him the fuck out or leave. if he applies force, be it by threat or whatever, then you've got a case. but until then, im sorry but no. it would open the door to impossibly speculative and arbitrary convictions for rape against guys who probably do not deserve it.
how do you measure that in order to throw some guy in jail for years and leave him marked a rapist for the rest of his life? a guy's drunk, wants to get laid, whines, begs, and pleads for it, and now he's a rapist for life... that hardly seems fair. women wanted equality. they claim they are the equal of men. that means they can say no and mean it. that means that if words induce them to sex, it is their problem. giving in becos you're annoyed or afraid he'll dump you is not good enough to ruin a guy's life with a rape charge. if you dont want to, say no. if he persists, kick him the fuck out or leave. if he applies force, be it by threat or whatever, then you've got a case. but until then, im sorry but no. it would open the door to impossibly speculative and arbitrary convictions for rape against guys who probably do not deserve it.
:rolleyes: Don't talk about something you know absolutely nothing about and tell us how to react in a situation. You have NO fucking idea. Do YOU know how YOU'D react say if you were mugged? I can say without a doubt you do not. You know what way you SHOULD react though I'm sure... but nobody NOBODY knows how they're going to react in a certain situation until they're IN that situation... so when YOU'VE had somebody try to rape you and kicked them off... THEN come back and tell everyone THAT'S how they should react :rolleyes:
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Comments
self=false self/ego, developed based on who we decided we "should" be based on what we learn in life.
Self=who we actually are. For many, most of the Self is unconscious because they will only accept the false self as being who they are--they've rejected other aspects of who they are that exist.
self-centred refers to being tied to the false self.
Being centered to me refers to being at one with all my energy, good, bad or indifferent, and to be grounded within one's individuality. Paradoxically, when one can find that centre--or what one has control of, one can find where one is not and what one does not control. One may then respect that and move through life quite unobstructed. When one is not aware who the truth of who one is, one finds their ignored and rejected aspects getting caught in all manner of ways in our entanglements around us. Since it is a process of unfolding and we are never perfect, if one learns how to be boundaried-meaning to not infringe and to not allow others to infringe--one can live freely and imperfectly without having to accept too much fallout.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I know that i have done it on several occassions with my ex when i didn't want to. Because in the past when i had denied him, he would get angry and pout and start arguments with me. So, it became easier to just do it. I also think that i did feel mentally raped. I just always associated that feeling to being sexually abused as a child. So, i would say that it's all on how it makes you feel when it happens. Like if you feel like you've been raped, then yes, but if not then, no. Do you know what i'm saying? Also, i've never been physically raped, so i wonder if you've never been physically raped, can you really know mentally what it feels like to be raped? Am i making any sense?
I agree with this, and want to add that the possibility for mental abuse is another reason many people do not say no. It's easier to let the other person have what they want then deal with bad feelings or a verbal spat.
Make your life a mission - not an intermission. - Arnold Gasglow
I think the spirit of such laws is that there are predators who deliberately get someone drunk because they know they can "get" sex where there would not normally have a chance. Such "predators" are quite commonplace, from what I've heard, and by this I mean it's basically socially acceptable, even though it's weaselly and sexually assaultive.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://dnr.state.il.us/orc/wildlife/virtual_news/images/long_tailed_weasel/lt_weasel_frontal.jpg
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Legally, mental coercion is rape. 9 of 10 rapes are date rapes that occur with little physical aggression and a lot of mental coercion. It's rape.
And that's not very self-centered.
Yes.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Whenever you align your energy against a part of your s/Self, you're not being truly s/Self-centered. Such is the nature of any contradiction
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Damn you....
I believe this is known as "thread creep". We'll take this back to where it belongs
Being afraid that a guy might never stop bitching is a lot different than being afraid he'll beat you bloody (or worse). I just want to make it clear here that I'm talking about men with no history of violence. With men who are known abusers, any argument amounts to a threat of physical force.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
agreed.
rape is all about power and to some degree, hatred.....and merely manifests itself through sex.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
There are many cases of rape where a woman did not say no because of the threat...but she did not say yes either.
I think she needs to say yes, or leave her alone!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I don't think the dialogue that takes place is anything like that at all. I know that you are only giving an example of something that could take place. As one poster say, if the person makes it clear that they just don't want to,or don't feel like it, and the person pleads and badgers you, then it is kinda crossing the line, don't you think?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I think a verbal yes would solve a lot of these issues.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=219992
I wanted to resurrect that thread because I was reading about Barak Obama on Wiki and noticed this:
This goes to reinforce what I was saying earlier in that thread about multi-racial youth having a greater chance of committing crimes and using drugs because of issues about their identity. The statistics I posted earlier in that thread were laughed at, and I developed a complex over it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
that's ridiculous. any sex in marriage would be rape then, cos you know they only do it out of obligation and would rather not.
"in one survey of women undergraduates, 39% reported that they had said 'no' when they meant yes, and 61% of the sexually experienced women in the survey said that they had done so. 90% of those women said that fear of appearing promiscuous was an important reason for their behavior. Many said they wanted their dated to wait or 'talk me into it,' and some said that they told their dates 'no' becos they 'wanted him to be more physically aggressive."
- Kadish, criminal law and its processes.
are men truly at fault for being rapists, or are women at fault for telling us that no doesn't always mean no and wanting us to be more aggressive and work for it before giving it up?
You see a woman who has been brutally raped, it is "easy" to understand the physical pain component. But without being a victim of such a coarse personal violation, the psychological/mental/emotional component is not as easily understood by most.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
how do you measure that in order to throw some guy in jail for years and leave him marked a rapist for the rest of his life? a guy's drunk, wants to get laid, whines, begs, and pleads for it, and now he's a rapist for life... that hardly seems fair. women wanted equality. they claim they are the equal of men. that means they can say no and mean it. that means that if words induce them to sex, it is their problem. giving in becos you're annoyed or afraid he'll dump you is not good enough to ruin a guy's life with a rape charge. if you dont want to, say no. if he persists, kick him the fuck out or leave. if he applies force, be it by threat or whatever, then you've got a case. but until then, im sorry but no. it would open the door to impossibly speculative and arbitrary convictions for rape against guys who probably do not deserve it.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you