But luckily there are books...two written by Barack Obama himself....about himself. One or two written by Hillary (with help) about herself, and ten times as many written about her by others (not so pretty as It Takes a Village). Unfortunately, none written about Kucinich, or Paul for that matter.
And if people can't even bring themselves to read books, or all the news available in print or on the internet, but only vote based on Fox News, MSNBC and CNN soundbites, God pity our country.
But that's the way it is, these days.
Ignorance is no longer bliss.
There is, however, plenty of history about Kucinich you can read and plenty of long wonderful speeches he has written. I don't think he feels he needs to write a book about himself and I wouldn't see him making that move. Also, I won't just take a book about that someone writes about themselves as really getting to the heart of the matter. Who is gonna tell the dirt about themselves? Especially when they have high politicial aspirations?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I gotcha Bu. And I'm a dreamer always have been, always will be. Both have aspirations for sure I believe they have different intentions, but that's me. I was only addressing the book thing.
The polls are no surprise.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Going from saying 'we don't leave until the insurgency is defeated' to what he is currently saying is a huge change, imo.
not only did obama say that he also said we should keep a permanent presence in iraq to make sure iran and syria knew we were serious!!!!
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i already said i'm comfortable with what obama says when he says it about iraq. this is the stuff i am not willing to go back and forth on with you. i simply do not have the time or patience.
but you want me to say why i back him, fine:
ultimately if you really want to know, read the audacity of hope. much of what he says really inspired me. there's too much in there to type about here--i love his focus on education (especially college edu), health care (required cov for children, others have access to affordable care), and the need for foreign policy (!). i love that he keeps all options on tables regarding complex issues like war--i don't trust those who say otherwise. he also addresses some underlying issues that affect all the other issues--race and economic class (doesn't address gender as much as the others, but i can help him with that). too often candidates don't acknowlege those issues.
also, the way he is as a person does matter to me. i'm not ashamed to say i like his charisma. you know why? he gets people to work with him! he has worked with all sorts of other politicians to actually accomplish things. also, i think he is *realistic*. and that has never been more important to me than now. i feel there are some serious things that need to be addressed and fixed in this country and we need a realistic leader, which i think he is both--realistic and a leader. i love that he is younger too. he seems to be very smart, realistic, and can work with people to make things happen. you can't get stuff done from the inside if you are too extreme and don't work with a broad base. change happens in stages.
finally one of the biggest reasons i like him is that he has ALWAYS been strongly pro-choice.
here is an great example of why i like obama (illustrating some qualities important to me):
"I believe we must work together to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies. I support legislation to expand access to contraception, health information, and preventative services to help reduce unintended pregnancies. That is why I co-sponsored the Prevention First Act of 2007, which will increase funding for family planning and comprehensive sex education that teaches both abstinence and safe sex methods. It will also end insurance discrimination against contraception, improve awareness about emergency contraception, and provide compassionate assistance to rape victims.
see, that wasn't so hard!!!
you should learn to not take these things so personal, just b/c i don't want to support your guy doesn't mean you have to get so bent out of shape
however, i still see him as another usual politician, sorry
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
A recent editorial in The Chicago Sun-Times, published on May 14, attempted to defile an essay I wrote in these pages [Dissident Voice] about Barack Obama’s fundraising channels and his ties to corporate America. The Sun-Times piece, written by former Clinton White House counsel Abner J. Mikva, challenged my claim that Barack isn’t taking on the pay-to-play politics we are all so used to in Washington. Instead Mikva asserted that the ethically minded Obama is “incorruptible”.
True, Obama has decided to not accept PAC money for his presidential bid, but that doesn’t mean the Illinois senator isn’t packing in tons of cash from the corporate sector (more on that shortly). True also that Obama’s campaign, like Howard Dean’s of 2004, is pocketing many small online donations at an average of $25 a pop. However, small donations from the Democratic grassroots do not mean he doesn’t also have his paws in the corporate cookie jar.
How can this be if companies cannot directly hand over cash to candidates for national office? Well, their employees can donate up to $2,300 per person. In my article I noted that Obama has raised money from several corporations, including Exelon, UBS, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, along with tobacco rich law firm Kirkland & Ellis. Of course there are others that have fattened the accounts of Obama for president that I didn’t mention, such as; Time Warner, Viacom, Williams & Connolly, Level 3 Communications, Credit Suisse Securities, Lehman Brothers and Ariel Capital.
So how can one assume that employee donations are representative of the companies they list on their donor forms? As OpenSecrets.org, a not-for-profit website dedicated to revealing the money trails of Washington, asserts, “Because of contribution limits, organizations that bundle together many individual contributions are often among the top donors to presidential candidates. These contributions can come from the organization’s members or employees (and their families).”
Hence why UBS and Exelon are on the top of Obama’s contributor list. Even so, are the millions of dollars donated by employers of these companies actually influencing Barack Obama’s positions?
Abner J. Mikva doesn’t think so. But you may connect the dots as you see fit.
Fact: Barack Obama believes nuclear power is “green” and told the Senate Committee on Environment & Public Works, of which Barack is a member, that Congress should allow “nuclear power to remain on the table for consideration”. Employees of Exelon, which is the nation’s largest nuclear power plant operator, have donated over $159,000 to Obama’s presidential campaign as of March 31, 2007. That amount has likely increased since the first public tallying of campaign contributions two months ago.
Fact: Obama, in one of his earliest Senate votes, departed with his own party and voted for class action “reform” legislation. The bill, as Ken Silverstein wrote for Harper’s, was “lobbied for aggressively by financial firms, which constitute Obama’s second biggest single bloc of donors.” An amendment to the legislation, which the senator opposed, would have capped credit card interest rates at 30%. Obama, unfortunately, didn’t see a need for any cap on such predatory lending.
Fact: Obama may not allow PACs to donate directly to his presidential campaign, but the young senator started a PAC of his own, which has donated to other Democratic Party members, all of whom are moderates, and several are even staunch conservatives like Sen. Joe Lieberman (Obama backed Lieberman over Ned Lamont). Obama’s leadership PAC has been loaded with the help of credit card lobbyist Jeffrey Peck (who, subsequently, opposes a cap on credit card interests) and big oil proponent Rich Tarplin.
By pointing out these truths I am not implying that Obama is the most corporate entrenched candidate running for the presidency. That award may indeed go to Sen. Hillary Clinton. Nevertheless, I think it is pertinent for voters to know where candidates stand on important issues as well as what may have influenced these positions.
Aside from the purported corporate pressure on Obama’s campaign, there are other issues we should all consider before jumping on the Obama express — such as his lopsided support for Israel and his all-options-on-the-table approach to dealing with Iran’s nuclear ambitions.
Sen. Obama may not completely support the war in Iraq, but he has yet to put forward an agenda for the region that offers a critical departure from the failed Bush doctrine. On the Middle East, Obama is an avid hawk. On social movements in South America Obama has argued that citizens there should not follow left-leaning populists like Hugo Chavez, and advocates in his book The Audacity of Hope, that these poor nations should embrace free-market capitalism instead.
By and large Barack Obama is a mainstream Democratic candidate that is exciting many due to his personal, charismatic zeal. There is no question that Obama is a gifted politician, and his youth only adds to the mystique that he’s offering an alternative to business as usual in Washington.
Despite all of these claims, I still have to depart from Abner J. Mikva’s editorial in The Chicago Sun-Times, which insists Obama can’t be influenced. I connect the dots differently than Mikva, and see Sen. Barack Obama as just another ineffectual politician, who is more concerned with being elected than with standing by the ideals of his constituents.
Joshua Frank is co-editor of Dissident Voice and author of Left Out! How Liberals Helped Reelect George W. Bush (Common Courage Press, 2005), and along with Jeffrey St. Clair, the editor of the forthcoming Red State Rebels, to be published by AK Press in March 2008.
hmmmm, interesting...not to mention according to bloomerg as economic and trade advisors 2 of his main men are from citigroup and the other helped push nafta thru, had his law firm advise mexico on nafta and pushed to escalate the wto!!!
has that 'free-market capitalism' barack likes so much ever helped any country get out of debt and the hands of the world bank or imf? any? nope, not a single one...instead they have things like their water privatized and see their bills shoot up a couple 100% :rolleyes:
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
HUGHLEY: Well, I think Barack Obama -- you know, I`ve watched him two times in the political debate, and he seems like a bit of a novice. I think that the idea that people would vote for a guy that they didn`t know where he stood politically was just a further point, that we just kind of want to think that we`re further along than we are.
his earlier point in that quote was
But I think that it speaks to a bigger point, which is that America, it just kind of wants to be -- we don`t ever want to know what`s going on in the world. We want to be tickled and played with. We`d rather know what`s going on with Sanjaya than we do with the Sudan. So it`s just -- I think it`s typical of the way that we are as a people.
But I think that it really goes back to the point I was making earlier. Celebrity, it`s all about celebrity. Around Schwarzenegger is the governor here. You know, we had -- the governor of Minnesota. And, you know, Ronald Reagan was the president and the governor of California. So I think that it`s more about celebrity. I think that the reason they`re talking about Fred Thompson so seriously is because he`s been in a lot of movies where he played president.
And you know what? I think that, where that`s concerned, you know, I have gone all around this country. I was recently - - Sunday, I was in the capital. And it`s funny, because the capital is in the roughest neighborhood. I mean, it`s surrounded by criminals, drug addicts, and pedophiles, and that`s just in the House of Representatives.
But I think that, you know, we`ve gotten to a place now where we don`t want anybody who is effective, or who might have leadership qualities that we dig. We want them to be mirrors of what we -- of the kind of agendas that we want to forward.
And I just -- I don`t know how -- just like the immigration issue, which I find disingenuous, because this country was built on free labor that was able to kind of extort, whether it`s the slaves that were brought over, or whether it was the Chinese immigrants, or the Irish immigrants, or the Italian immigrants. So this has been a pattern with this country. So to pretend like now, because it`s Mexicans who now have their turn in the barrel, it`s -- we`re at odds with ourselves, because we want the free labor, but we want them to clean our houses and get out. And I think we`re having a problem with that.
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
you should learn to not take these things so personal, just b/c i don't want to support your guy doesn't mean you have to get so bent out of shape
however, i still see him as another usual politician, sorry
i don't think i took it personally. i posted what i did because it is a waste of my time to go back and forth with you on some things. it's just that i have other things to do.
sorry but you supporting 'my guy' has nothing to do with it.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
I did acknowledge them! I said they were trival issues that I'm not deciding my vote on also.
My bad. It was a quick post I made before leaving work. What I'm saying is that no politician (or public servant, if you will) is free of the kinds of "crimes" that are being pointed at Obama. And, for a mainstream candidate, these crimes are rather sparse. The excitement over "revealing" Obama's - which aren't really revelations - well, it gets me a' talkin'.
Also, I would like to state that those issues are not trivial to me. Free expression is very important, as are safe and legal abortions. So is ending the war in Iraq. Obama has all of those going for him - so he gets my vote. And, I'm not going to deny it, he's a somewhat realistic bet.
But it's all moot. Chances are we'll end up with President Fred Thompson and remain stuck in Iraq for another term - further pissing us both off.
Meaning his is opposed to tax cuts that benefit all Americans. That's what I said. It is helping to create and sustain the class warfare...but oh well. It's easy money to grab because tons of people hate other successful people and love to see them pick up the tab.
I'm not sure why that is fair. They're already paying a higher percentage. Where's Forbes when you need him?
Well, you said "Tax Cuts for All Americans," not Tax Cuts that Benefit All Americans.
Still, I don't share your opinion that when the upper class gets a tax cut, all America is washed over in the healing salve of "More Money." So when someone, like Forbes I suppose, starts complaining about how he's only personally able to keep 12 million out of every 20 million he earns, I can say I don't really get choked up over it. People like him get a higher benefit from our society, so they pay a higher percentage. Sounds fair - at least as far as "fair" goes, which isn't very, whether we're talking about tax codes, biology, or the Matrix sequels.
While I understand this is a valid view, it's also the view based on the programming I speak of and I don't mean in just you--but in everyone. When such advanced ideas like the ones Kucinich holds begin to filter into mainstream (and they come from far and wide, not just him) people will realize the "rigged" aspects are limits they hold in their minds. And we can always change our minds. When we change our minds, we can also change the structures--political and otherwise--that are not working for the good of all, or the whole country.
I realize these are ideas that need to filter in and take root with people, and that takes time. I don't believe it's an inherent flaw in the system that can't be changed, though. I see that people are waking up slowly and surely. When enough people realize the self-defeating nature of self-ishness, all, including business/corporation people will evolve. 'Cause when we see the actual consequences of self-interests at the expense of the whole, there is NO choice.
You may view the "rigged" aspects as something we will eventually evolve away from, too. I'm pointing to the seeds we can begin to plant now. There is no time like the present. I'm not saying vote for the guy. I don't even know if I would. I see the potency in the idea of looking to a better way, and to be actively creating it, TODAY.
and i consider myself an optimist!! ...
really tho - the thing is that yes - things take time but we are not progressing towards a truly democratic society - the progression is further and further away ...
here's a great example ... people in the democratic party hired/paid someone to discredit another member of the party and it worked ... what kind of game is that? ...
if kucinich or ron paul for that matter even get a whiff of a chance to win - you will see the ugliness come forth ... right now, with no realistic chance of winning - they are both allowed to speak freely ...
. yeah, he's not going to accomplish everything the way he wants, but who would? having a democratic congress is going to help that, though they also have to be careful not to push too much because look what happens when you have republican congress and president. it's going to swing back and forth, and maybe we can postpone that next swing by taking smart, slower steps to rebuild.
True. I often have to wonder about the American Left, and I include myself in this - 'cause I'm just as likely to fall for idealism over realism myself, historically. But why the fetish for shooting ourselves in the foot? Do we really think it will be easier to get a more liberal country with a Republican controlled government?
My new strategy is get the Democrats in power, then become a "radical." That way, I'm pulling on a government that's already on my side of the river - and I won't have to drown them to get them closer to where I stand.
True. I often have to wonder about the American Left, and I include myself in this - 'cause I'm just as likely to fall for idealism over realism myself, historically. But why the fetish for shooting ourselves in the foot? Do we really think it will be easier to get a more liberal country with a Republican controlled government?
My new strategy is get the Democrats in power, then become a "radical." That way, I'm pulling on a government that's already on my side of the river - and I won't have to drown them to get them closer to where I stand.
I hear what you're saying...I said the same things with Kerry. But this time I'm voting my conscience and staying true to my ideals...it's that simple. I'm not strategically compromising myself again. Obama's stance on war, his support for moderates over progressives, his support of nuclear energy, the credit card cap vote, among other things...I can see he's not for me. To me, there seems to be TOO much compromise from his behalf and this is only campaign time...in office will only get worse. But to each their own.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
My opinion of Barack Obama... I think he's cool! I'm not 100% sure why yet, but I'm keeping my ear to the ground! lol
and that is what we are saying...ppl say they support him but don't know why?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
really tho - the thing is that yes - things take time but we are not progressing towards a truly democratic society - the progression is further and further away ...
here's a great example ... people in the democratic party hired/paid someone to discredit another member of the party and it worked ... what kind of game is that? ...
if kucinich or ron paul for that matter even get a whiff of a chance to win - you will see the ugliness come forth ... right now, with no realistic chance of winning - they are both allowed to speak freely ...
and i call bullshit...he's taken political hits in his congressional elections over his stances and alwasy stayed firm
in the end maybe the abortion issue is what decides it for you or someone else, not me...i will take his stances on the war in iraq, his voting against capping credit card interest rated at 30%, his stance on nuclear energy, having ppl as top advisors that are high up in citigroup, ppl who helped craft and push NAFTA thru then argued a year or 2 ago that the WTO needs to be escalated...maybe those stances don't matter to you...and that's fine, but they matter to me and that is why i will not support obama even if he were to win the democratic nomination. you can ignore it all you want and say kucinich's stance on abortion is the same, to you it could be, to me it's not
it's ok to disagree
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i don't think i took it personally. i posted what i did because it is a waste of my time to go back and forth with you on some things. it's just that i have other things to do.
sorry but you supporting 'my guy' has nothing to do with it.
ok, my bad, maybe it's the way i'm taking it, but it seems like you get hyper defensive and highly annoyed whenever anyone is critical of obama, now if it was what you think is something was 'misleading' i could understand that, but it seems like it goes beyond that
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
and i call bullshit...he's taken political hits in his congressional elections over his stances and alwasy stayed firm
in the end maybe the abortion issue is what decides it for you or someone else, not me...i will take his stances on the war in iraq, his voting against capping credit card interest rated at 30%, his stance on nuclear energy, having ppl as top advisors that are high up in citigroup, ppl who helped craft and push NAFTA thru then argued a year or 2 ago that the WTO needs to be escalated...maybe those stances don't matter to you...and that's fine, but they matter to me and that is why i will not support obama even if he were to win the democratic nomination. you can ignore it all you want and say kucinich's stance on abortion is the same, to you it could be, to me it's not
if kucinich or ron paul for that matter even get a whiff of a chance to win - you will see the ugliness come forth ... right now, with no realistic chance of winning - they are both allowed to speak freely ...
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I hear what you're saying...I said the same things with Kerry. But this time I'm voting my conscience and staying true to my ideals...it's that simple. I'm not strategically compromising myself again. Obama's stance on war, his support for moderates over progressives, his support of nuclear energy, the credit card cap vote, among other things...I can see he's not for me. To me, there seems to be TOO much compromise from his behalf and this is only campaign time...in office will only get worse. But to each there own.
Cool. President Hillary Clinton it is, then.
Actually, Ralph Nader has as much said he'll run if Hillary gets the nod. So it's President Republican-Yet-to-be-Named, then.
I'm just joshin' ya. If Obama doesn't get the nod, I'll likely be voting Nader myself.
i think you misread the context ... you'll have to see the whole conversation i was having with angelica ... i'm not saying kucinich or paul would resort to anythng petty - simply that the game they are playing is rigged ...
if either of them have a decent chance of winning - you can be sure the powers that be will start spreading false rumours and go on a smear campaign to discredit these candidates ...
it's not the people - it's the game they are playing ... it's flawed
Back when I was a young'un in '92 a lot of the alterna-punk rockers I hung out with continually dumped on Pearl Jam for being too mainstream. I tried explaining to them that even though Pearl Jam were popular, they weren't trying to be the new pretty boy pop band they were made out to be. That they were actually pretty honest in their musical approach and that their popularity had more to do with the state of the world and music in general at the time as well as a media push generated by their initial recognition. But my friends never listened. Pearl Jam were sell-outs all. Now I'm hearing what appears to be the same chorus against Obama. Just an observation.
Anyway, in a side by side comparison: Abortion
Obama: Strongly Pro-Choice
Kucinich: Somewhat Pro-Choice since 2002 - flipped for the 2004 campaign (likely because the polls said he should) Afirmative Action
Both support it. Gay Rights
Both are pretty gay friendly. Kucinich supports outright marriage, Obama supports civil unions. I'll give it to Kucinich there, but not by much. Flag Desecration
Obama: Voted against a constitutional ban on flag desecration.
Kucinich: Voted in favor of a constitutional ban on flag desecration. (Huh?!?!) Federal funding for health coverage
Both favor more funding
Both oppose Privatizing Social Security, School Vouchers, the Death Penalty, Mandatory Sentencing, Absolute Right to Gun Ownership, Tax Cuts for the Wealthy, Expansion of Free Trade.
Where they differ the most? Obama supports churches providing some welfare, while Kucinich opposes it (point Kucinich IMO, though not one of my biggest issues). Kucinich wants to cut military spending significantly, Obama doesn't (kind of a wash there for me- it's the use I'm worried about).
Verdict? I'd vote for either of them in the general. In the primary, I'm going with Obama. Why? Well, not to borrow from the Republican Meme Use Handbook, but he's more of a uniter than Kucinich - and that's not a "should-be or shouldn't-be" argument. It's simply a statement of fact.
And, to my original statement - well, it seems Nirvana's the band hocking the most shit now, not Pearl Jam.
http://www.answers.com/topic/dennis-kucinich
His congressional voting record has also leaned toward a pro-life stance, although he noted that he has never supported a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion altogether. In 2003, however, he began describing himself as pro-choice and said he had shifted away from his earlier position on the issue.[10] Press releases have indicated that he is pro-choice but also wants to initiate a series of reforms, such as ending the "abstinence-only" policy of sex education and increasing the use of contraception in hopes of making abortion "less necessary" over time.
the flag burning thing i have no clue about, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion and personally i would rather someone vote for a ban on flag desecration than vote to reauthorize the patriot act like obama did.
why i won't vote for or support obama is not b/c he's the popular guy it's b/c
-he voted to reauthorize the patriot act
-voted against capping credit card interest rates at 30%
Obama, in one of his earliest Senate votes, departed with his own party and voted for class action “reform” legislation. The bill, as Ken Silverstein wrote for Harper’s, was “lobbied for aggressively by financial firms, which constitute Obama’s second biggest single bloc of donors.” An amendment to the legislation, which the senator opposed, would have capped credit card interest rates at 30%. Obama, unfortunately, didn’t see a need for any cap on such predatory lending.
-his support for an attack on iran if they built a nuke "all options are on the table" does that mean using nukes ourselves against them?
-has as top economic and trade advisors a guy high up in citigroup and another guy who helped craft and push NAFTA through advised Mexico on NAFTA dealings and argued for escalting the WTO just 1-2 years ago, a credit card lobbyist and big oil poponent
**note, here's what wikipedia has to say of obama's man from citigroup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rubin#Citigroup_and_post-political_career
He sparked controversy in 2001 when he contacted an acquaintance at the Treasury Department and asked if the department could convince bond-rating agencies not to downgrade the corporate debt of Enron, a debtor of Citigroup. Rubin wanted Enron creditors to loan money to the troubled company for a restructuring of its debt; a collapse of the energy giant might have serious consequences for financial markets and energy distribution.
also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citigroup#Business_Issues
Citigroup was accused of helping Enron and other companies hide their losses by loaning money to those companies in a special way that would reduce liabilities visible on the balance sheet.
that link has other scandals involving citigroup while rubin was an exec, some violating SEC regulations
-thinks nuclear power is 'green' energy source Barack Obama believes nuclear power is “green” and told the Senate Committee on Environment & Public Works, of which Barack is a member, that Congress should allow “nuclear power to remain on the table for consideration”. Employees of Exelon, which is the nation’s largest nuclear power plant operator, have donated over $159,000 to Obama’s presidential campaign as of March 31, 2007. That amount has likely increased since the first public tallying of campaign contributions two months ago.
-previously stated we needed to stay in iraq until the insurgency was defeated adn even then we keep a permanent presence there to let iran and syria know we are serious
-didn't really support any of the actual progressives in their campaigns (sorry, vg, but i don't see raising money 2 years earlier while you go out on a publicity tour is really supporting the actual person...if dick cheney won the democratic primary he would've gotten the money, too. if john lee malvo won the primary he'd get the money, too...instead he put any actual support behind hawks like joe lieberman
now, to some of you maybe kucinich saying he is against abortion personally but supports a person's right to choice is too big of an issue or the flag desecration act....but to me, just the handful of reasons i have of why i won't back obama faaaaaaaaaaaar outweigh those 2 things for me. if you all are fine w/ that then support away, it just seems to be contradictory, far more so than those 2 kucinich issues, compared w/ previous posts but everyone is entitled to change their minds.
i'm not trying to attack anyone or start a fight, but come on, picking the president is a pretty big thing and i take these issues i listed very seriously, they do not embody what i believe, in fact they are pretty much in direct contradiction w/ my view. maybe 'the world' isn't ready for my view...oh well, i'm not gonna wait around for it to be, i'll stand behind what i believe and not compromise any more on certain things, especially these...it always seems we have to compromise to suit the status quo, i say, for me, no more, i'm stepping out of your line
if you don't think those issues are important fine, but don't act like they are misleading if you won't back up how or why they are
to me, i look at obama's list above and think 'same old shit'
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
not me, i am righting in Edward Vedder. i bet we can get him about 1,000 votes if we tried
you're doing a lot of "righting" lately. Every time you post, all that "righting" in your signature makes me have to scroll over to see the whole page.
And that's not counting the fact that I just like him. I JUST LIKE HIM. When it boils right down to it I'm going to go with my gut and pick the person who I think is the nicest person. I'd like a nice person in the office next term, please! Not a self serving ego maniac.
And that's not counting the fact that I just like him. I JUST LIKE HIM. When it boils right down to it I'm going to go with my gut and pick the person who I think is the nicest person. I'd like a nice person in the office next term, please! Not a self serving ego maniac.
Comments
There is, however, plenty of history about Kucinich you can read and plenty of long wonderful speeches he has written. I don't think he feels he needs to write a book about himself and I wouldn't see him making that move. Also, I won't just take a book about that someone writes about themselves as really getting to the heart of the matter. Who is gonna tell the dirt about themselves? Especially when they have high politicial aspirations?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I love idealism, Abook. But I'm also a realist.
I gotcha Bu. And I'm a dreamer always have been, always will be. Both have aspirations for sure I believe they have different intentions, but that's me. I was only addressing the book thing.
The polls are no surprise.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
not only did obama say that he also said we should keep a permanent presence in iraq to make sure iran and syria knew we were serious!!!!
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
see, that wasn't so hard!!!
you should learn to not take these things so personal, just b/c i don't want to support your guy doesn't mean you have to get so bent out of shape
however, i still see him as another usual politician, sorry
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
hmmmm, interesting...not to mention according to bloomerg as economic and trade advisors 2 of his main men are from citigroup and the other helped push nafta thru, had his law firm advise mexico on nafta and pushed to escalate the wto!!!
has that 'free-market capitalism' barack likes so much ever helped any country get out of debt and the hands of the world bank or imf? any? nope, not a single one...instead they have things like their water privatized and see their bills shoot up a couple 100% :rolleyes:
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
HUGHLEY: Well, I think Barack Obama -- you know, I`ve watched him two times in the political debate, and he seems like a bit of a novice. I think that the idea that people would vote for a guy that they didn`t know where he stood politically was just a further point, that we just kind of want to think that we`re further along than we are.
his earlier point in that quote was
But I think that it speaks to a bigger point, which is that America, it just kind of wants to be -- we don`t ever want to know what`s going on in the world. We want to be tickled and played with. We`d rather know what`s going on with Sanjaya than we do with the Sudan. So it`s just -- I think it`s typical of the way that we are as a people.
But I think that it really goes back to the point I was making earlier. Celebrity, it`s all about celebrity. Around Schwarzenegger is the governor here. You know, we had -- the governor of Minnesota. And, you know, Ronald Reagan was the president and the governor of California. So I think that it`s more about celebrity. I think that the reason they`re talking about Fred Thompson so seriously is because he`s been in a lot of movies where he played president.
And you know what? I think that, where that`s concerned, you know, I have gone all around this country. I was recently - - Sunday, I was in the capital. And it`s funny, because the capital is in the roughest neighborhood. I mean, it`s surrounded by criminals, drug addicts, and pedophiles, and that`s just in the House of Representatives.
But I think that, you know, we`ve gotten to a place now where we don`t want anybody who is effective, or who might have leadership qualities that we dig. We want them to be mirrors of what we -- of the kind of agendas that we want to forward.
And I just -- I don`t know how -- just like the immigration issue, which I find disingenuous, because this country was built on free labor that was able to kind of extort, whether it`s the slaves that were brought over, or whether it was the Chinese immigrants, or the Irish immigrants, or the Italian immigrants. So this has been a pattern with this country. So to pretend like now, because it`s Mexicans who now have their turn in the barrel, it`s -- we`re at odds with ourselves, because we want the free labor, but we want them to clean our houses and get out. And I think we`re having a problem with that.
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i don't think i took it personally. i posted what i did because it is a waste of my time to go back and forth with you on some things. it's just that i have other things to do.
sorry but you supporting 'my guy' has nothing to do with it.
cross the river to the eastside
Also, I would like to state that those issues are not trivial to me. Free expression is very important, as are safe and legal abortions. So is ending the war in Iraq. Obama has all of those going for him - so he gets my vote. And, I'm not going to deny it, he's a somewhat realistic bet.
But it's all moot. Chances are we'll end up with President Fred Thompson and remain stuck in Iraq for another term - further pissing us both off.
Peace and Love
Deni
Still, I don't share your opinion that when the upper class gets a tax cut, all America is washed over in the healing salve of "More Money." So when someone, like Forbes I suppose, starts complaining about how he's only personally able to keep 12 million out of every 20 million he earns, I can say I don't really get choked up over it. People like him get a higher benefit from our society, so they pay a higher percentage. Sounds fair - at least as far as "fair" goes, which isn't very, whether we're talking about tax codes, biology, or the Matrix sequels.
and i consider myself an optimist!! ...
really tho - the thing is that yes - things take time but we are not progressing towards a truly democratic society - the progression is further and further away ...
here's a great example ... people in the democratic party hired/paid someone to discredit another member of the party and it worked ... what kind of game is that? ...
if kucinich or ron paul for that matter even get a whiff of a chance to win - you will see the ugliness come forth ... right now, with no realistic chance of winning - they are both allowed to speak freely ...
My new strategy is get the Democrats in power, then become a "radical." That way, I'm pulling on a government that's already on my side of the river - and I won't have to drown them to get them closer to where I stand.
I hear what you're saying...I said the same things with Kerry. But this time I'm voting my conscience and staying true to my ideals...it's that simple. I'm not strategically compromising myself again. Obama's stance on war, his support for moderates over progressives, his support of nuclear energy, the credit card cap vote, among other things...I can see he's not for me. To me, there seems to be TOO much compromise from his behalf and this is only campaign time...in office will only get worse. But to each their own.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
and that is what we are saying...ppl say they support him but don't know why?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
and i call bullshit...he's taken political hits in his congressional elections over his stances and alwasy stayed firm
in the end maybe the abortion issue is what decides it for you or someone else, not me...i will take his stances on the war in iraq, his voting against capping credit card interest rated at 30%, his stance on nuclear energy, having ppl as top advisors that are high up in citigroup, ppl who helped craft and push NAFTA thru then argued a year or 2 ago that the WTO needs to be escalated...maybe those stances don't matter to you...and that's fine, but they matter to me and that is why i will not support obama even if he were to win the democratic nomination. you can ignore it all you want and say kucinich's stance on abortion is the same, to you it could be, to me it's not
it's ok to disagree
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
ok, my bad, maybe it's the way i'm taking it, but it seems like you get hyper defensive and highly annoyed whenever anyone is critical of obama, now if it was what you think is something was 'misleading' i could understand that, but it seems like it goes beyond that
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
uhh ... what are you calling bullshit to?
to:
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Actually, Ralph Nader has as much said he'll run if Hillary gets the nod. So it's President Republican-Yet-to-be-Named, then.
I'm just joshin' ya. If Obama doesn't get the nod, I'll likely be voting Nader myself.
I have a feeling I'll be voting for Nader, too.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
dont even fucking joke about that :(
i think you misread the context ... you'll have to see the whole conversation i was having with angelica ... i'm not saying kucinich or paul would resort to anythng petty - simply that the game they are playing is rigged ...
if either of them have a decent chance of winning - you can be sure the powers that be will start spreading false rumours and go on a smear campaign to discredit these candidates ...
it's not the people - it's the game they are playing ... it's flawed
not me, i am righting in Edward Vedder. i bet we can get him about 1,000 votes if we tried
FEAR MORE YEARS!
FEAR MORE YEARS!!
FEAR MORE YEARS!!!
http://www.answers.com/topic/dennis-kucinich
His congressional voting record has also leaned toward a pro-life stance, although he noted that he has never supported a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion altogether. In 2003, however, he began describing himself as pro-choice and said he had shifted away from his earlier position on the issue.[10] Press releases have indicated that he is pro-choice but also wants to initiate a series of reforms, such as ending the "abstinence-only" policy of sex education and increasing the use of contraception in hopes of making abortion "less necessary" over time.
the flag burning thing i have no clue about, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion and personally i would rather someone vote for a ban on flag desecration than vote to reauthorize the patriot act like obama did.
why i won't vote for or support obama is not b/c he's the popular guy it's b/c
-he voted to reauthorize the patriot act
-voted against capping credit card interest rates at 30%
Obama, in one of his earliest Senate votes, departed with his own party and voted for class action “reform” legislation. The bill, as Ken Silverstein wrote for Harper’s, was “lobbied for aggressively by financial firms, which constitute Obama’s second biggest single bloc of donors.” An amendment to the legislation, which the senator opposed, would have capped credit card interest rates at 30%. Obama, unfortunately, didn’t see a need for any cap on such predatory lending.
-his support for an attack on iran if they built a nuke "all options are on the table" does that mean using nukes ourselves against them?
-has as top economic and trade advisors a guy high up in citigroup and another guy who helped craft and push NAFTA through advised Mexico on NAFTA dealings and argued for escalting the WTO just 1-2 years ago, a credit card lobbyist and big oil poponent
**note, here's what wikipedia has to say of obama's man from citigroup:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rubin#Citigroup_and_post-political_career
He sparked controversy in 2001 when he contacted an acquaintance at the Treasury Department and asked if the department could convince bond-rating agencies not to downgrade the corporate debt of Enron, a debtor of Citigroup. Rubin wanted Enron creditors to loan money to the troubled company for a restructuring of its debt; a collapse of the energy giant might have serious consequences for financial markets and energy distribution.
also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citigroup#Business_Issues
Citigroup was accused of helping Enron and other companies hide their losses by loaning money to those companies in a special way that would reduce liabilities visible on the balance sheet.
that link has other scandals involving citigroup while rubin was an exec, some violating SEC regulations
-thinks nuclear power is 'green' energy source
Barack Obama believes nuclear power is “green” and told the Senate Committee on Environment & Public Works, of which Barack is a member, that Congress should allow “nuclear power to remain on the table for consideration”. Employees of Exelon, which is the nation’s largest nuclear power plant operator, have donated over $159,000 to Obama’s presidential campaign as of March 31, 2007. That amount has likely increased since the first public tallying of campaign contributions two months ago.
-previously stated we needed to stay in iraq until the insurgency was defeated adn even then we keep a permanent presence there to let iran and syria know we are serious
-didn't really support any of the actual progressives in their campaigns (sorry, vg, but i don't see raising money 2 years earlier while you go out on a publicity tour is really supporting the actual person...if dick cheney won the democratic primary he would've gotten the money, too. if john lee malvo won the primary he'd get the money, too...instead he put any actual support behind hawks like joe lieberman
now, to some of you maybe kucinich saying he is against abortion personally but supports a person's right to choice is too big of an issue or the flag desecration act....but to me, just the handful of reasons i have of why i won't back obama faaaaaaaaaaaar outweigh those 2 things for me. if you all are fine w/ that then support away, it just seems to be contradictory, far more so than those 2 kucinich issues, compared w/ previous posts but everyone is entitled to change their minds.
i'm not trying to attack anyone or start a fight, but come on, picking the president is a pretty big thing and i take these issues i listed very seriously, they do not embody what i believe, in fact they are pretty much in direct contradiction w/ my view. maybe 'the world' isn't ready for my view...oh well, i'm not gonna wait around for it to be, i'll stand behind what i believe and not compromise any more on certain things, especially these...it always seems we have to compromise to suit the status quo, i say, for me, no more, i'm stepping out of your line
if you don't think those issues are important fine, but don't act like they are misleading if you won't back up how or why they are
this, to me, looks far better to my world view:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kucinich#2008_Presidential_campaign
to me, i look at obama's list above and think 'same old shit'
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Now, VG...comvince me your candidate is the one I should be voting for.
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you're doing a lot of "righting" lately. Every time you post, all that "righting" in your signature makes me have to scroll over to see the whole page.
fix that, dammit.
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Well really, that was a joke. Here are the reasons I support him.
http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/
And that's not counting the fact that I just like him. I JUST LIKE HIM. When it boils right down to it I'm going to go with my gut and pick the person who I think is the nicest person. I'd like a nice person in the office next term, please! Not a self serving ego maniac.
Peace and Love
Deni
Barack has written two books about himself.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.