ok then... why doesnt god forgive those who didnt believe in him?
surely he's just building up resentment and hatred for not just one person... but many millions...
I'm not sure. You seem to know what God is thinking so you probably do not need to ask me.
When I was asking about forgiveness there, I was actually talking in part about people forgiving each other. Why harbor resentment and wish ill will upon someone? Does it do any good for you personally?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
1. makes a change from Ames or Klausen posters
2. well he was a member of the Church dude... doesnt that strike you as kinda weird? plus he was a childfucker not a motherfucker
3. no... but others do.. and those people believe that god will put people into hell if they dont believe in him... even Ghandi
member of the church doesn't mean anything to me.. it's not the first time a priest is accused of having abused of children. That's just disgusting and I think those guys deserves to suffer... for those jerks, I even think I agree taht death penalty shoudl be used. But the fact taht he's member of the church or not doens't change anything to me.
2006: Antwerp, Paris
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
No - what I'm saying is you think your own personal knowledge, experience, reasoning, etc., is so advanced that you think you can explain away God based on what you know. In other words, you're equating or putting yourself above God.
That fits the definition of an egomania precisely.
Maybe that's the way you perceive it. But I'm sure many like myself aren't putting ourselves above god. We are questioning what are rather absurd rules, considering he allegedly made us in his own image, with all our weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Yet he punishes us for being who and what we are?
That doesn't sound like an all loving, benign "God". That sounds like a sadistic, egomaniac. Which are of course the traits of character and personality......of a human being.
I'm not sure. You seem to know what God is thinking so you probably do not need to ask me.
well my belief is that god isnt thinking as there is no god.. hence why i asked you if your god was so forgiving then why not forgive those who dont believe in him.
he'll forgive murder, incest, rape, beastiality, child abuse... but not believing in him... he's goin to send you down!
When I was asking about forgiveness there, I was actually talking in part about people forgiving each other. Why harbor resentment and wish ill will upon someone? Does it do any good for you personally?
some people can forgive and some cant... we're all individuals... your religion teaches you to forgive... i have no religion to teach me forgiveness so i go with my own methods... i make up my own mind.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
I think using a religion to determine whether you may forgive or not is weak...
Saying that god has to decide whether someone will go in heaven or in hell is easy. Doing so, you don't have to give your own opinion or even think about what you really think...
2006: Antwerp, Paris
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
I think using a religion to determine whether you may forgive or not is weak...
Saying that god has to decide whether someone will go in heaven or in hell is easy. Doing so, you don't have to give your own opinion or even think about what you really think...
Notice my response on forgiveness has nothing to do with god or religion.
Notice my response on forgiveness has nothing to do with god or religion.
my post wasn't written especialy for you. It's my general point of view.
2006: Antwerp, Paris
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
since he's done something like that, I really doubt that he actually believes in God to be honest.
Exactly, I mean come on, does anyone believe that these members of the clergy who do this are generally upstanding, pious men who have fallen somewhat, or did they get into that line of work in the first place so that they are a) trusted by the community and b) have steady access to children?
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
my post wasn't written especialy for you. It's my general point of view.
As it is mine.
I was aware your comments were not directed at me. But for some reason, I thought I had the right to comment. Since, you know, this is a message board:D
Exactly, I mean come on, does anyone believe that these members of the clergy who do this are generally upstanding, pious men who have fallen somewhat, or did they get into that line of work in the first place so that they are a) trusted by the community and b) have steady access to children?
Hey Jeremy; long time no "talk" to you........hope all is well..........
I think that if we believe in God then we must also believe in Satan and his eternal battle to overtake God and His people. I believe the Catholic church is uneder huge attack after the priest molestation crisis, as I believe anyone who is trying to live for God will be overwhelmed with challenges.
To those who believe, this is understandable. To those who do not, this is crazy talk. I just wanted to tell you what I thought in response to your post.
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
I was aware your comments were not directed at me. But for some reason, I thought I had the right to comment. Since, you know, this is a message board:D
yes, of course you may comment. This place is made for that.
religion is a subject that makes me "nervous". I just can't believe in anything and I'm surprised that so many people believe in god (or whatever) and "use him" to explain things or even to justify acts.
2006: Antwerp, Paris
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
some people can forgive and some cant... we're all individuals... your religion teaches you to forgive... i have no religion to teach me forgiveness so i go with my own methods... i make up my own mind.
My question is not whether you or I choose to forgive (or are taught either way), but rather what is wrong with forgiving someone?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
My question is not whether you or I choose to forgive (or are taught either way), but rather what is wrong with forgiving someone?
if he answers, will you answer his question?
for me, i am all for forgiveness. sometimes it takes time though. and forgiveness does not mean turning a blind eye. we have jails for a reason. and maybe the initial reaction to a story like this is anger. nothing wrong with that. but forgiveness is an admirable long-term response.
but the question he's posing is a good one and one i have never heard a good answer to from any religious person. if forgiveness is so important, why can murder, rape, child abuse, or genocide be forgiven, but skepticism towards the christian dogma package cannot be?
but the question he's posing is a good one and one i have never heard a good answer to from any religious person. if forgiveness is so important, why can murder, rape, child abuse, or genocide be forgiven, but skepticism towards the christian dogma package cannot be?
It's a simple answer. Those things you mention - murder, rape, etc - are only forgiven (as I understand it), if the person truly repents of those sins and asks for forgiveness. If they don't, then they are not forgiven.
That is EXACTLY the same for the skepticism. If you truly repent and request forgiveness, then you're forgiven. Of course, you can't truly ask God for forgiveness if you do not stop the skepticism.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It's a simple answer. Those things you mention - murder, rape, etc - are only forgiven (as I understand it), if the person truly repents of those sins and asks for forgiveness. If they don't, then they are not forgiven.
That is EXACTLY the same for the skepticism. If you truly repent and request forgiveness, then you're forgiven. Of course, you can't truly ask God for forgiveness if you do not stop the skepticism.
and this all has to be done before your death bed eh?
It's a simple answer. Those things you mention - murder, rape, etc - are only forgiven (as I understand it), if the person truly repents of those sins and asks for forgiveness. If they don't, then they are not forgiven.
That is EXACTLY the same for the skepticism. If you truly repent and request forgiveness, then you're forgiven. Of course, you can't truly ask God for forgiveness if you do not stop the skepticism.
i dunno... you tell me. the question was if he can still "go to heaven." considering that he was banned from his position... i think it's a given where the church stands on his "salvation" part.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
member of the church doesn't mean anything to me.. it's not the first time a priest is accused of having abused of children. That's just disgusting and I think those guys deserves to suffer... for those jerks, I even think I agree taht death penalty shoudl be used. But the fact taht he's member of the church or not doens't change anything to me.
i wish more people thunk like you....
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Maybe that's the way you perceive it. But I'm sure many like myself aren't putting ourselves above god. We are questioning what are rather absurd rules, considering he allegedly made us in his own image, with all our weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Yet he punishes us for being who and what we are?
That doesn't sound like an all loving, benign "God". That sounds like a sadistic, egomaniac. Which are of course the traits of character and personality......of a human being.
what i'm trying to understand is why all this? why is it that this man who happens to be a priest now all of a sudden the entire church gets the blame?
the truth is i could sit down and talk to you and explain to you all these things... but you'll just go on and find many other little arguments to excuse it away. and it will never end. if it makes sense to someone... good. if it doesn't.... good. let's leave it at that and if any one commits a crime, believer or not... then let's judge them based on our own human laws.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
and this all has to be done before your death bed eh?
that's strictly between god and the individual. take for instance when jesus was on the cross... two thieves were on his both sides.
39One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? (AI)Save Yourself and us!"
40But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41"And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
42And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (AJ)Paradise."
the difference from one to another was that one of them had genuinely and most profoundly been swepted away by this man jesus that he knew his shame and accepted what was coming to him. he didn't even ask to go to heaven... he simply asked to be remembered. that's a deeply genuine human being showing response... let's hope at least you'll have that at your deathbed.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
ok then... why doesnt god forgive those who didnt believe in him?
surely he's just building up resentment and hatred for not just one person... but many millions...
hey, Dunk, what's up?
If you find the history that is out there regarding Jesus, and his death, while He is on the cross, He distinctly said, "forgive them Father, for they do not know what they do............".
He was all about the humble way of life. Those who claimed true hiarchy among others were not those He joined in His life. He always protected those persecuted and pointed out, "let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
Man had made faith and religion a club; not Jesus.
I respect what you believe; truly. But I had to say what I hold true for Jesus in my faith.
All this is our own personal stuff.............you know?
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
i dunno... you tell me. the question was if he can still "go to heaven." considering that he was banned from his position... i think it's a given where the church stands on his "salvation" part.
he did all his crimes whilst STILL being a member of the clergy... he was a vicar and abused his position and standing to fuck about with little kids.
i dont care one iota if he was banned by the church... the 'can he still go to heaven' bit is based on the fact that the guy clearly believes in god and in jesus... so he has total belief in them... so after abusing tiny kids can he still go to heaven? and the answer according to the rules is yes...
and i'm asking if forgiveness is what religion is all about then why cant the main man forgive people who dont worship him... thats where the egomania came in... god is quite happy to allow rapists and murderers enter his hallowed back yard as long as they repent and truly believe... they fuckers had the 'chance' to believe.... what if a 27 year old guy who devoted his life to the helping of the homeless got attacked by a serial killer one day? the guy just hadnt gotten around to the whole jesus/god thing... so the serial killer kills him... he dies and goes to hell (even though his life was one of goodness) and the serial killer gets to sit in a jail... think about what he's done... and quite possibly discover that he believes in god... he goes to heaven.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
says the church. so i guess tis just dogma and probably nothing to do with God.
if one can not ask forgiveness for the sin they committed(and apparently suicide is a sin. though now that i think about it murder is probably the sin in this case, not specifically that its suicide), then one can not be absolved of that sin. bit difficult to seek absolution if youre already dead.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
what i'm trying to understand is why all this? why is it that this man who happens to be a priest now all of a sudden the entire church gets the blame?
the truth is i could sit down and talk to you and explain to you all these things... but you'll just go on and find many other little arguments to excuse it away. and it will never end. if it makes sense to someone... good. if it doesn't.... good. let's leave it at that and if any one commits a crime, believer or not... then let's judge them based on our own human laws.
Well, I really wasn't focusing on the entire church. I was merely questioning and criticizing what I consider to be absurd "religion-based rules" and implying that maybe, just maybe.......these so-called rules of god, are really nothing more than rules of men. Rules designed and created by certain human beings with intentions other than concern fot your spiritual soul.
But since you bring up "The Church"......
"The Church " has spent decade after decade protecting, sheltering, denying, lying and circling the wagons regarding all the pedophilia and sexual abuse perpetrated by their Priests/Clergy.
They only finally admited it and so-called addressed the problem after it became such widespread knowledge. For decades they kept it all under lock and key. The world was a bigger place with very little forms of quick communication and alternative news sources. But the world shrunk on them and with satelite TV, digital cable and the internet; it became more and more difficult for them to shuffle their twisted phedophiles around from place to place.
The Church was complicit not only in permitting these crimes to occur, as well in covering it up and protecting criminals.
So why should "The Church " be spared of severe criticism and condemnation?
Afterall, is Religion not (any religion ) just a tool used by human beings, to manipulate the masses and condemn those who don't conform and follow?
It's very interesting that these religions create a Catch 22 and basically attempt to push people into a corner of fear; by intellectually, emotionally and spiritually handcuffing them to their religion of choice.
Hey, if you don't "Believe" you're going to hell.
Am I the only one who finds that extremely manipulative, self-serving, sadistic and outright oppressive?
What kind of all-loving God creates us in his own image, with all our genetic/character flaws, weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Yet he punishes us for being what he created?
That doesn't sound like an all-loving god. That sounds like the works and traits of human beings.
And if is in fact a God who came up with this rubbish, then, I do not praise, worship or obey anyone or any god who treats his most beloved creations like little pieces of dirt for his sadistic and vicious amusement.
Comments
I'm not sure. You seem to know what God is thinking so you probably do not need to ask me.
When I was asking about forgiveness there, I was actually talking in part about people forgiving each other. Why harbor resentment and wish ill will upon someone? Does it do any good for you personally?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
member of the church doesn't mean anything to me.. it's not the first time a priest is accused of having abused of children. That's just disgusting and I think those guys deserves to suffer... for those jerks, I even think I agree taht death penalty shoudl be used. But the fact taht he's member of the church or not doens't change anything to me.
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
Maybe that's the way you perceive it. But I'm sure many like myself aren't putting ourselves above god. We are questioning what are rather absurd rules, considering he allegedly made us in his own image, with all our weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Yet he punishes us for being who and what we are?
That doesn't sound like an all loving, benign "God". That sounds like a sadistic, egomaniac. Which are of course the traits of character and personality......of a human being.
well my belief is that god isnt thinking as there is no god.. hence why i asked you if your god was so forgiving then why not forgive those who dont believe in him.
he'll forgive murder, incest, rape, beastiality, child abuse... but not believing in him... he's goin to send you down!
some people can forgive and some cant... we're all individuals... your religion teaches you to forgive... i have no religion to teach me forgiveness so i go with my own methods... i make up my own mind.
Saying that god has to decide whether someone will go in heaven or in hell is easy. Doing so, you don't have to give your own opinion or even think about what you really think...
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
Notice my response on forgiveness has nothing to do with god or religion.
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
As it is mine.
I was aware your comments were not directed at me. But for some reason, I thought I had the right to comment. Since, you know, this is a message board:D
Hey Jeremy; long time no "talk" to you........hope all is well..........
I think that if we believe in God then we must also believe in Satan and his eternal battle to overtake God and His people. I believe the Catholic church is uneder huge attack after the priest molestation crisis, as I believe anyone who is trying to live for God will be overwhelmed with challenges.
To those who believe, this is understandable. To those who do not, this is crazy talk. I just wanted to tell you what I thought in response to your post.
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
religion is a subject that makes me "nervous". I just can't believe in anything and I'm surprised that so many people believe in god (or whatever) and "use him" to explain things or even to justify acts.
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
My question is not whether you or I choose to forgive (or are taught either way), but rather what is wrong with forgiving someone?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
if he answers, will you answer his question?
for me, i am all for forgiveness. sometimes it takes time though. and forgiveness does not mean turning a blind eye. we have jails for a reason. and maybe the initial reaction to a story like this is anger. nothing wrong with that. but forgiveness is an admirable long-term response.
but the question he's posing is a good one and one i have never heard a good answer to from any religious person. if forgiveness is so important, why can murder, rape, child abuse, or genocide be forgiven, but skepticism towards the christian dogma package cannot be?
It's a simple answer. Those things you mention - murder, rape, etc - are only forgiven (as I understand it), if the person truly repents of those sins and asks for forgiveness. If they don't, then they are not forgiven.
That is EXACTLY the same for the skepticism. If you truly repent and request forgiveness, then you're forgiven. Of course, you can't truly ask God for forgiveness if you do not stop the skepticism.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
and this all has to be done before your death bed eh?
So not believing is a sin, correct?
Yes.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
the truth is i could sit down and talk to you and explain to you all these things... but you'll just go on and find many other little arguments to excuse it away. and it will never end. if it makes sense to someone... good. if it doesn't.... good. let's leave it at that and if any one commits a crime, believer or not... then let's judge them based on our own human laws.
39One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? (AI)Save Yourself and us!"
40But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41"And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
42And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (AJ)Paradise."
the difference from one to another was that one of them had genuinely and most profoundly been swepted away by this man jesus that he knew his shame and accepted what was coming to him. he didn't even ask to go to heaven... he simply asked to be remembered. that's a deeply genuine human being showing response... let's hope at least you'll have that at your deathbed.
hey, Dunk, what's up?
If you find the history that is out there regarding Jesus, and his death, while He is on the cross, He distinctly said, "forgive them Father, for they do not know what they do............".
He was all about the humble way of life. Those who claimed true hiarchy among others were not those He joined in His life. He always protected those persecuted and pointed out, "let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
Man had made faith and religion a club; not Jesus.
I respect what you believe; truly. But I had to say what I hold true for Jesus in my faith.
All this is our own personal stuff.............you know?
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
he did all his crimes whilst STILL being a member of the clergy... he was a vicar and abused his position and standing to fuck about with little kids.
i dont care one iota if he was banned by the church... the 'can he still go to heaven' bit is based on the fact that the guy clearly believes in god and in jesus... so he has total belief in them... so after abusing tiny kids can he still go to heaven? and the answer according to the rules is yes...
and i'm asking if forgiveness is what religion is all about then why cant the main man forgive people who dont worship him... thats where the egomania came in... god is quite happy to allow rapists and murderers enter his hallowed back yard as long as they repent and truly believe... they fuckers had the 'chance' to believe.... what if a 27 year old guy who devoted his life to the helping of the homeless got attacked by a serial killer one day? the guy just hadnt gotten around to the whole jesus/god thing... so the serial killer kills him... he dies and goes to hell (even though his life was one of goodness) and the serial killer gets to sit in a jail... think about what he's done... and quite possibly discover that he believes in god... he goes to heaven.
says the church. so i guess tis just dogma and probably nothing to do with God.
if one can not ask forgiveness for the sin they committed(and apparently suicide is a sin. though now that i think about it murder is probably the sin in this case, not specifically that its suicide), then one can not be absolved of that sin. bit difficult to seek absolution if youre already dead.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yes. Good point. If you end up believing and ask for forgiveness, it would be forgivable. My mistake.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Well, I really wasn't focusing on the entire church. I was merely questioning and criticizing what I consider to be absurd "religion-based rules" and implying that maybe, just maybe.......these so-called rules of god, are really nothing more than rules of men. Rules designed and created by certain human beings with intentions other than concern fot your spiritual soul.
But since you bring up "The Church"......
"The Church " has spent decade after decade protecting, sheltering, denying, lying and circling the wagons regarding all the pedophilia and sexual abuse perpetrated by their Priests/Clergy.
They only finally admited it and so-called addressed the problem after it became such widespread knowledge. For decades they kept it all under lock and key. The world was a bigger place with very little forms of quick communication and alternative news sources. But the world shrunk on them and with satelite TV, digital cable and the internet; it became more and more difficult for them to shuffle their twisted phedophiles around from place to place.
The Church was complicit not only in permitting these crimes to occur, as well in covering it up and protecting criminals.
So why should "The Church " be spared of severe criticism and condemnation?
Afterall, is Religion not (any religion ) just a tool used by human beings, to manipulate the masses and condemn those who don't conform and follow?
It's very interesting that these religions create a Catch 22 and basically attempt to push people into a corner of fear; by intellectually, emotionally and spiritually handcuffing them to their religion of choice.
Hey, if you don't "Believe" you're going to hell.
Am I the only one who finds that extremely manipulative, self-serving, sadistic and outright oppressive?
What kind of all-loving God creates us in his own image, with all our genetic/character flaws, weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Yet he punishes us for being what he created?
That doesn't sound like an all-loving god. That sounds like the works and traits of human beings.
And if is in fact a God who came up with this rubbish, then, I do not praise, worship or obey anyone or any god who treats his most beloved creations like little pieces of dirt for his sadistic and vicious amusement.
The Church is full of crap. Has been for thousands of years. All "churchs" and all religions.
youre preaching to the choir, 'tree.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Ah-men ......;)