Joining the army

Binaural

This has always puzzled me. I have known a few people who have joined the army and I have never understood, or indeed supported them in, their decision. I have never understood how the majority of people can do it. There are a number of stereotypical reasons for joining; "They're paying for my degree", "The money is good", "I'll get to see the world" or the classic "I'm defending my country". The reason I find it hard to understand these reasons is because in most cases people take for granted the fact that at some point in their army career they may have to kill someone and that is such a huge thing. I mean how you do agree to be potentially responsible for taking a life and be so blase about the agreement? How can you be prepared to kill a stranger for a stranger? I'm half venting, half trying to generate discussion. Anyone got any experiences of this or any thoughts?



PEACE

kenny olav

I wouldn't join the United States military at the present time. But if there was a justiafiable war for freedom, I would fight it. Classic example: The Battle of Stirling Bridge (and accompanying battles in the wars for Scottish independence). Oh yeah, and World War II.

Binaural

Kenny Olav wrote:

I wouldn't join the United States military at the present time. But if there was a justiafiable war for freedom, I would fight it. Classic example: The Battle of Stirling Bridge (and accompanying battles in the wars for Scottish independence). Oh yeah, and World War II.

I know but even WWII for example wasn't what it has been painted as in school history books. It is taken for granted that it was 'to fight evil' when instead it was more about keeping the powerful in power. Britain was well aware of Hitlers views and those of his party a long time before war broke out yet did they act? Even in those cases the reasons for the war were wrong, people fighting were being lied to.




PEACE

hippiemom

Binaural wrote:

I know but even WWII for example wasn't what it has been painted as in school history books. It is taken for granted that it was 'to fight evil' when instead it was more about keeping the powerful in power. Britain was well aware of Hitlers views and those of his party a long time before war broke out yet did they act? Even in those cases the reasons for the war were wrong, people fighting were being lied to.




PEACE

Whatever the primary motivations of the Allied leaders, I think it's impossible to argue that the world would be a better place with Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito in power. People were being lied to, as they always are, but I do think that was a war that needed to be fought. And honestly, I don't know how much of the lies the soldiers even paid attention to. Japan attacked us, Hitler declared war ... those are facts, and they were the reason most soldiers signed up.

Puck78

hippiemom wrote:

Japan attacked us, Hitler declared war ... those are facts, and they were the reason most soldiers signed up.

are you sure that it was not for the wage? Or to obtain the US citizenship?
Anyway, we're in 2006, let's stop talking about WW2 in every topic and let's face the current situation

chopitdown

Binaural wrote:

This has always puzzled me. I have known a few people who have joined the army and I have never understood, or indeed supported them in, their decision. I have never understood how the majority of people can do it. There are a number of stereotypical reasons for joining; "They're paying for my degree", "The money is good", "I'll get to see the world" or the classic "I'm defending my country". The reason I find it hard to understand these reasons is because in most cases people take for granted the fact that at some point in their army career they may have to kill someone and that is such a huge thing. I mean how you do agree to be potentially responsible for taking a life and be so blase about the agreement? How can you be prepared to kill a stranger for a stranger? I'm half venting, half trying to generate discussion. Anyone got any experiences of this or any thoughts?



PEACE

i'm sure it's not easy signing up for the army. I think it's important to realize that the people who sign up for the army understand they may have to do kill someone. If I was in the army I would have a hard time killing a stranger, until i realized that the stranger was trying to kill me...it would suddenly become much easier. The bottom line is not everyone holds the same value on human life, which is sad, yet it is reality. The fact that people can join the army, get education paid for, make money, have a career is no reason NOT to join it. People aren't duped into joining the army; they realize they may be asked to fight and die...for the most part they just hope they aren't asked to do that.

Paint a Picture....

Binaural wrote:

This has always puzzled me. I have known a few people who have joined the army and I have never understood, or indeed supported them in, their decision. I have never understood how the majority of people can do it. There are a number of stereotypical reasons for joining; "They're paying for my degree", "The money is good", "I'll get to see the world" or the classic "I'm defending my country". The reason I find it hard to understand these reasons is because in most cases people take for granted the fact that at some point in their army career they may have to kill someone and that is such a huge thing. I mean how you do agree to be potentially responsible for taking a life and be so blase about the agreement? How can you be prepared to kill a stranger for a stranger? I'm half venting, half trying to generate discussion. Anyone got any experiences of this or any thoughts?



PEACE

Im currently serving as a soldier in the British Army, tho only for another month or so, and the reasons i joined were 2 fold.

1 Because my country was built by my ancestors, hard working people with a healthy respect for human life, and i feel lucky to live in a country where my children wont starve if i cant work, where my mum will get medical attention if shes ill, where if i think it and i have the energy and drive i can do it, where i can say what i want about whatever i like on any street corner without being arrested and tortured and where democracy means something. I wanted to pay back into that.

and

2 Because i possess all the tools of a strong man, and i wanted to use those tools to fight and kill those with the same tools who use them to subjegate (?) and live off those with a gentler nature.

NOW....

I realise things are different in the current climate (and have been for who knows how long?) and fighting and dieing for my ideals does not necessarily mean fighting alongside the powers that be.

I speak only for myself, the majority of people join the forces because it is they're best or only option. Some because they love they status. And some because they need to be in a pack to feel strong.

hippiemom

Puck78 wrote:

are you sure that it was not for the wage? Or to obtain the US citizenship?
Anyway, we're in 2006, let's stop talking about WW2 in every topic and let's face the current situation

I grew up surrounded by WWII vets (grandfathers, uncles, etc.) and every single one of them lost money by joining the armed forces. They were all employed and doing just fine when the U.S. entered the war, and none of them waited to be drafted, they all joined willingly. I'm sure there were those that joined for money, or to obtain citizenship, or whatever, but huge numbers joined because they felt it was their duty.

bootlegger10

Puck78 wrote:

are you sure that it was not for the wage? Or to obtain the US citizenship?

How the puck are you so sure?

(Pun intended)

bgivens33

Binaural wrote:

This has always puzzled me. I have known a few people who have joined the army and I have never understood, or indeed supported them in, their decision. I have never understood how the majority of people can do it. There are a number of stereotypical reasons for joining; "They're paying for my degree", "The money is good", "I'll get to see the world" or the classic "I'm defending my country". The reason I find it hard to understand these reasons is because in most cases people take for granted the fact that at some point in their army career they may have to kill someone and that is such a huge thing. I mean how you do agree to be potentially responsible for taking a life and be so blase about the agreement? How can you be prepared to kill a stranger for a stranger? I'm half venting, half trying to generate discussion. Anyone got any experiences of this or any thoughts?



PEACE

So, Just so I am understanding you correctly, I wanted to clarify that you are saying you don't support the army/military at all? Or just people that you know joining the army? If it's the former, then how would you suggest responding to outside attacks? I've never had someone point a gun at me, but if that were to be the case, I would have absolutely no problem killing them.

I guess I'm just a bit confused by what you are saying. I think sometimes people get caught up in the policy that is behind the war, they forget about the people fighting it. The people fighting it don't decided policies, nor are they even asked. They always will have my support, maybe that's just me though.

bgivens33

chopitdown wrote:

The fact that people can join the army, get education paid for, make money, have a career is no reason NOT to join it.

What would you say is a good reason to join it?

sapperskunk

I joined for all the typical reasons, nothing special here, but it was hands down the best thing I've ever done for myself. For a stupid punk rocker who barely graduated high school to now be attending a great university today is a drastic change for myself. Don't discourage your buddy, it's a huge decision that he has to think hard about. And who says he's going to kill anyone, he can become a supply clerk, or a finance specialist. Atleast this is the US army I'm talking about.

You can never be prepared to kill anyone, technically yes, emotionally no.

Remember combat arms isn't for everybody.
Tell your boy to check out the SAPPERS. It's worth the hell, you'll grow hair on your chest and back and shoulders and ears and elbows and kneecaps and forehead. Weird huh?

chopitdown

bgivens33 wrote:

What would you say is a good reason to join it?

those are good reasons, definding your country is a good reason. I don't think there's nec one right or good reason for joining.

Paint a Picture....

sapperskunk wrote:

I joined for all the typical reasons, nothing special here, but it was hands down the best thing I've ever done for myself. For a stupid punk rocker who barely graduated high school to now be attending a great university today is a drastic change for myself. Don't discourage your buddy, it's a huge decision that he has to think hard about. And who says he's going to kill anyone, he can become a supply clerk, or a finance specialist. Atleast this is the US army I'm talking about.

You can never be prepared to kill anyone, technically yes, emotionally no.

Remember combat arms isn't for everybody.
Tell your boy to check out the SAPPERS. It's worth the hell, you'll grow hair on your chest and back and shoulders and ears and elbows and kneecaps and forehead. Weird huh?

<<Royal Engineers, u guys called sappers too?! thats cool as fuck, i've never worked with the us army, wish i had tho evryone gets cool trades!

SweetHarmonics

It seems like they prey on the downtrodden and unemployed, obviously. A theory on the correlation between the circumstances (relatively high unemployment and the start of the War On Terror) isn't exactly groundbreaking but it's hugely relevant to the discussion.

Some conspiracy theorists might go as far to accuse them of manufacturing such a scenario.

know1

Binaural wrote:

This has always puzzled me. I have known a few people who have joined the army and I have never understood, or indeed supported them in, their decision. I have never understood how the majority of people can do it. There are a number of stereotypical reasons for joining; "They're paying for my degree", "The money is good", "I'll get to see the world" or the classic "I'm defending my country". The reason I find it hard to understand these reasons is because in most cases people take for granted the fact that at some point in their army career they may have to kill someone and that is such a huge thing. I mean how you do agree to be potentially responsible for taking a life and be so blase about the agreement? How can you be prepared to kill a stranger for a stranger? I'm half venting, half trying to generate discussion. Anyone got any experiences of this or any thoughts?



PEACE

I totally agree. The fact is, you are agreeing to kill someone if you are ordered to do so and I could NEVER do that.

sapperskunk

Paint a Picture.... wrote:

<<Royal Engineers, u guys called sappers too?! thats cool as fuck, i've never worked with the us army, wish i had tho evryone gets cool trades!

Hillarious, I'm pretty sure the Russians use something along the same lines, SAPPIREH. Or something like that. I also always wanted to work with the BRITS but never got the chance, just the Russians in Kosovo, who are pretty shady charachters and the Macedonians in Iraq, who I think beat out any insurgent or terrorist on a scary-as-fuck scale.

sapperskunk

SweetHarmonics wrote:

It seems like they prey on the downtrodden and unemployed, obviously.

I know, doesn't that suck. Rich and educated people, whites or socially prominent individuals don't have to serve their country, isn't that a bitch.

Wouldn't you say it's a way to get out of the ghetto though, or be the first person in your family to go to College, or maybe even to become a US citizen.

Do you think it's kind of weird that foreign nationals are willing to sacrifice their lives in the US army, because they love and desire to become members of our country so badly? The questions rhetorical, I've met every sort of individual described above. It's Veterans day weekend, go talk to some recently seperated vets for some good info why they joined.

DCGARDEN

Binaural wrote:

I know but even WWII for example wasn't what it has been painted as in school history books. It is taken for granted that it was 'to fight evil' when instead it was more about keeping the powerful in power. Britain was well aware of Hitlers views and those of his party a long time before war broke out yet did they act? Even in those cases the reasons for the war were wrong, people fighting were being lied to.




PEACE

Maybe you should check out some readings on your own that are independent of your school books. Yes Britain was aware of Hitler's views - but Britain was also aware of it's limitations at that time - Churchill wanted to take Hitler
out way before he actually got the chance to - He wanted the United States to fully commit herself to the war -

The night of Pearl Harbor, Churchill supposedly said, " We just won the war "


As for your main question on why someone would serve, as sick as it sounds to you, some people are actually able to put their country above themselves - People sign up to become Cops - The chances of shooting another person are probably greater in that field ( maybe not this day & age) but overall - yes - it's just that there's a lot of war currently so it makes it seem crazier to you -

redrock

I'm talking a long time ago but my dad joined the army because he was 16, had finished university (yes, university) and couldn't find a job. He wanted to travel as well. He had to wait for his 17th birthday to enlist and he promptly went to Japan where he stayed for four years. He was in the army for 26 years... it was a job. He was never in combat though he was in vietnam twice (front line as well, but working with communications/computers).

I think a lot of people who enlisted a few years back (before all this terrorist and lets go topple governments shit), did so in 'peace' time and never thought they would see active duty. I know a few who did, they did so for good job, good wages....

Sonja_S

My dad also joined the army when he was 17 because he could not get a job. It's different in Austria though, we are neutral, so the chances of actually using the knowledge was zero then (now our soldiers go on UN peacekeeping missions). He was a test-driver for tanks, so basically little Kurt was having fun driving big toys through the Austrian countryside until he quit when my older sister was on her way.

The Illinoisemakers

sapperskunk wrote:

I joined for all the typical reasons, nothing special here, but it was hands down the best thing I've ever done for myself. For a stupid punk rocker who barely graduated high school to now be attending a great university today is a drastic change for myself. Don't discourage your buddy, it's a huge decision that he has to think hard about. And who says he's going to kill anyone, he can become a supply clerk, or a finance specialist. Atleast this is the US army I'm talking about.

You can never be prepared to kill anyone, technically yes, emotionally no.

Remember combat arms isn't for everybody.
Tell your boy to check out the SAPPERS. It's worth the hell, you'll grow hair on your chest and back and shoulders and ears and elbows and kneecaps and forehead. Weird huh?

Did the army turn you into a sasquatch?

qtegirl

Binaural wrote:

This has always puzzled me. I have known a few people who have joined the army and I have never understood, or indeed supported them in, their decision. I have never understood how the majority of people can do it. There are a number of stereotypical reasons for joining; "They're paying for my degree", "The money is good", "I'll get to see the world" or the classic "I'm defending my country". The reason I find it hard to understand these reasons is because in most cases people take for granted the fact that at some point in their army career they may have to kill someone and that is such a huge thing. I mean how you do agree to be potentially responsible for taking a life and be so blase about the agreement? How can you be prepared to kill a stranger for a stranger? I'm half venting, half trying to generate discussion. Anyone got any experiences of this or any thoughts?



PEACE

I joined because I found myself pregnant in high school, my husband (yes, I married the guy) and I were working fast food and I didn't think I could go to college. I finished HS, but he didn't. We barely made enough money to survive and didn't have any health insurance for our baby.

Now, this was 1994 and thank God I never go deployed and I never had to face any of the horrors that soldiers have to face now. All and all, it was the right decision at the time. I finished my enlistment and went to college and now I have a degree in engineering, bought my own house, and my daughter has a much better life than I could've given her if I hadn't done those things.

I didn't want to go to war and I don't know what I would've done if that had happened. It was always in the back of my mind... especially when I had to qualify with my M-16. I couldn't believe I was shooting a gun, even if it was just at a target. I'm just glad I never had to shoot at any person.

Anyway, that's why I joined. I wouldn't encourge anyone to join right now... cuz I wouldn't do it myself. But overall, it was good experience, both in a professional and personal level.

Binaural

bgivens33 wrote:

So, Just so I am understanding you correctly, I wanted to clarify that you are saying you don't support the army/military at all? Or just people that you know joining the army? If it's the former, then how would you suggest responding to outside attacks? I've never had someone point a gun at me, but if that were to be the case, I would have absolutely no problem killing them.

I guess I'm just a bit confused by what you are saying. I think sometimes people get caught up in the policy that is behind the war, they forget about the people fighting it. The people fighting it don't decided policies, nor are they even asked. They always will have my support, maybe that's just me though.

I think people take the notion of the army for granted. If someone was pointing a gun at me and I knew they'd shoot me I would probably shoot them. However by VOLUNTEERING for the army YOU put YOURSELF in that situation.




PEACE

Binaural

DCGARDEN wrote:

Maybe you should check out some readings on your own that are independent of your school books. Yes Britain was aware of Hitler's views - but Britain was also aware of it's limitations at that time - Churchill wanted to take Hitler
out way before he actually got the chance to - He wanted the United States to fully commit herself to the war -

The night of Pearl Harbor, Churchill supposedly said, " We just won the war "


As for your main question on why someone would serve, as sick as it sounds to you, some people are actually able to put their country above themselves - People sign up to become Cops - The chances of shooting another person are probably greater in that field ( maybe not this day & age) but overall - yes - it's just that there's a lot of war currently so it makes it seem crazier to you -

First of all, I was not sarcastic or rude and you show yourself as an ass for wording your response in the way that you have. What about when Churchill visted Germany early early on and praised Hitler? Funny how things changed once Hitler made Germany powerful enough to challenge Britain eh? But as somene said earlier in the thread, let's not get sidetracked.
You seem to be under the impression that the army and the police force are positive things. Sure in their ideal they are positive however in reality they are far from it. Do they do good? Yeah they do, but there are also many negatives. I only tried to generate discussion. Not a bickering match.




PEACE

audome25

SweetHarmonics wrote:

It seems like they prey on the downtrodden and unemployed, obviously. A theory on the correlation between the circumstances (relatively high unemployment and the start of the War On Terror) isn't exactly groundbreaking but it's hugely relevant to the discussion.

Some conspiracy theorists might go as far to accuse them of manufacturing such a scenario.

not sure you can "prey" on something that has to volunteer.

audome25

DCGARDEN wrote:

Yes Britain was aware of Hitler's views - but Britain was also aware of it's limitations at that time - Churchill wanted to take Hitler
out way before he actually got the chance to

pre emptive is also considered war mongering, a lesson being learned now. the next time powers will wait late than they should.

wash, rinse, repeat.

Binaural

audome25 wrote:

not sure you can "prey" on something that has to volunteer.

How does that work then?





PEACE

gabers

Recruiters go after the easiest targets. They have goals they have to meet. It is much easier to recruit a guy that could barely graduate high school and has no valuable job skills than a kid from the suburbs that has good grades and plans on getting a degree. I was actually the latter and served in the Army for four years. I joined as the original Gulf War was petering out. I had no desire to go to war. I never wanted to kill anyone. I wanted to see the world, challenge myself, and get money for college. I knew all along that war, and in turn shooting someone was a possibility but I believed at that time that if that time came it was for a legitimate reason and instincts would take over. I'm proud to have served and proud of the job the troops (most of them) are doing. I just despise this administration and the chickenhawks who so readily sent our troops to fight an unjust war while avoiding actually ever fighting in a war themselves.

Cosmo

Even at this ripe old age, I would definately join the fight and kill or be killed if I have to, in order to protect the Principles of our Constitution from foriegn armies. I will not participate in our economic expansion or adventures in acclaimation to our way of life onto other cultures and/or societies by means of our military. I see the latter as a wreckless abuse of our military resource. If someone asks us to help free them, then I can see the nobility in our aid to end oppresion. I do not see spreading our form of society by the business end of our guns.
If there were Arabic Armies in Orange County, California trying to 'Spread Theocracy' in America to make us closer to God (Allah) and further from our current decadent, sexual/monetary based way of life... I would surely be blowing up the sonzabitches and going after treasonous 'Americans' collaborating with these foriegn invaders. Nothing to do with sex and money... everything to do with them telling me what is good for me. Their governments and Al Jazzera would call me a 'terrorist', but seriously, I wouldn't give a shit.

Ebizzie

SweetHarmonics wrote:

It seems like they prey on the downtrodden and unemployed, obviously. A theory on the correlation between the circumstances (relatively high unemployment and the start of the War On Terror) isn't exactly groundbreaking but it's hugely relevant to the discussion.

Some conspiracy theorists might go as far to accuse them of manufacturing such a scenario.

Do the downtrodden and unemployed have many other opportunities to climb the societal ladder? I'd venture to say that the US Armed Services are the ONLY TRUE equal opportunity employer in the nation.

Also, I would be willing to be that, academically, students at Westpoint are probably stronger than those at most Ivy League schools. Some of the sharpest minds in this nation commit themselves to the service each and every year.