Lisbon Treaty?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

Canada thinks we're ungrateful bastards thanks Canada!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080610.COSIMP10/TPStory/National

'Gratitude, it would appear, is in short supply.'

That article was a lump of shit.

Whatever arrangements the EU scrabbles together, it will be yet another time-consuming step in a constitutional process that has already dragged on too long. Remember that a bigger constitutional reform package died when the Dutch and French voted it down; now a smaller package is endangered by Ireland, with about 1 per cent of the EU's population.

In other words: "You're a small country. Suck it up, assholes."

Only Ireland is putting the new constitution, called the Lisbon Treaty, to a popular vote. It's designed, quite sensibly, to update the EU's institutions to take account of all the new members and make those institutions work better. Elsewhere, parliaments are deciding, sometimes, it should be said, because the treaty would lose were the people to decide. The German parliament recently endorsed Lisbon by an overwhelming majority.

In other words: "The governments have to choose instead of the people, because otherwise, they wouldn't be able to claim more power for themselves."

:mad:

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

That article was a lump of shit.



In other words: "You're a small country. Suck it up, assholes."



In other words: "The governments have to choose instead of the people, because otherwise, they wouldn't be able to claim more power for themselves."

:mad:

Yep :mad: but hey at least Trinidad and Tobego are with us

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's interesting to read foreign press:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3401015,00.html

'Kenny disagreed, saying it would be irresponsible and wrong for anyone to claim a "No" vote would not have adverse consequences for Ireland.

"The first victims would be the Irish," said French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner. Ireland's booming "Celtic Tiger" economy has long been lauded as an example of the benefits of EU membership.'

Nice :rolleyes:

"These are uncertain times, both in Ireland, and in the global economy," added Gilmore. "Now, more than ever, we need to know where we are going. We need to send a message that Ireland is open for business."

"In an ever more competitive global environment, it is imperative we don't give the impression that we are turning our back on Europe and the policies that have served us so well," he said.

That seems to the entire thrust of the government's campaign - "Let's not make Europe mad at us." Fuck's sake, have a backbone - France and the Netherlands had no problem with standing up for themselves 2 years ago. Can't we stick up for our own constitution without everyone thinking we're just voting no to give the rest of Europe a kick in the nads?

ADDENDUM: I hate the press.

Heineken Helen

here's what's going on in Czech republic:

http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/index_view.php?id=317265

'The Christian Democrats (KDU-CSL), a junior governing party, have announced that they will support the document even if the Constitutional Court decided that the Lisbon treaty contradicts the Czech constitutional order.

They said that in such an event the party would support changing the Czech constitution.'



If it's any consolation, I read a couple of Scottish articles where they seem to be supporting us

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

That seems to the entire thrust of the government's campaign - "Let's not make Europe mad at us." Fuck's sake, have a backbone - France and the Netherlands had no problem with standing up for themselves 2 years ago. Can't we stick up for our own constitution without everyone thinking we're just voting no to give the rest of Europe a kick in the nads?

ADDENDUM: I hate the press.

don't worry... while our government may have no backbone, I think our people have the more people tell us we HAVE to vote yes, the more I feel people will side with no.

Carlos D

I'll probably vote no but it's kind of with reluctance that I do so,I don't want to give Sinn Fein the opportunity to brag that peole are supporting their drug dealing redneck murdering scumbag party.But I think in the long run it's a small price to pay,Sinn Fein are never getting elected anways so there's no point voting yes to spite them and destroy my country in the process.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

don't worry... while our government may have no backbone, I think our people have the more people tell us we HAVE to vote yes, the more I feel people will side with no.

I can't wait for the Canadian press to slam us after we vote no. It's basically the equivalent of asking them to give up important parts of their constitution to become part of the United States. I can just imagine how well that'd fly.

But of course, they're a big country - they're not small and ungrateful like what we are.

Thank christ the Irish people are stubborn and contrary.

Heineken Helen

Carlos D wrote:

I'll probably vote no but it's kind of with reluctance that I do so,I don't want to give Sinn Fein the opportunity to brag that peole are supporting their drug dealing redneck murdering scumbag party.But I think in the long run it's a small price to pay,Sinn Fein are never getting elected anways so there's no point voting yes to spite them and destroy my country in the process.

Oh I really wish sinn fein weren't on the no side... I fear many people are voting yes for that reason and it really is silly if you think about it. Cutting off our nose despite our face!

Rhinocerous Surprise

So I done went and replied to the guy who wrote that article in the Canadian newspaper.

Mr Simpson

I read your article in the June 10 online edition of the Globe and Mail, on how Ireland's increasingly likely veto of the Lisbon Treaty is in some way "ungrateful" to the EU at large. Suffice to say, I disagree.

I will not argue that Ireland doesn't owe the EU a great deal. Our membership has led to great prosperity in the country. But to presume that this renders us beholden to agree to every new deal that comes along based on some misplaced idea of gratitude is a mistake. The Lisbon Treaty has been a shady concept since its inception.

You say:
"Only Ireland is putting the new constitution, called the Lisbon Treaty, to a popular vote. It's designed, quite sensibly, to update the EU's institutions to take account of all the new members and make those institutions work better. Elsewhere, parliaments are deciding, sometimes, it should be said, because the treaty would lose were the people to decide. The German parliament recently endorsed Lisbon by an overwhelming majority."

As if parliaments deciding these things because the people would reject them is a good thing... Aren't parliaments supposed to act in the best interests of their own people, and not the EU? That the people would not ratify the treaty in a referendum isn't a problem with the people, or with the democratic process - it's a problem with the treaty. A lot of Europeans have expressed their wishes for the Irish to vote no, because they never got the chance.

You say:
"Whatever arrangements the EU scrabbles together, it will be yet another time-consuming step in a constitutional process that has already dragged on too long. Remember that a bigger constitutional reform package died when the Dutch and French voted it down; now a smaller package is endangered by Ireland, with about 1 per cent of the EU's population."

First of all, let me say that if the EU is to be considered important by Ireland, then Ireland must be considered important by the EU, and writing off our decisions because we're not as big a country as France is not my idea of respect.

Second of all, that makes three countries who have declined to ratify this treaty in one form or another. The treaty itself is such a complex legal document that many of Ireland's own government ministers have admitted they haven't read it - but they still implore us to vote yes, despite nobody being able to really explain the ramifications of a yes vote.

You say:
"That the Irish vote might even be close is hard to fathom from a historical perspective. Joining Europe gave Ireland a chance to diversify its economy, get out from under Britain's economic shadow, subsidize massively its farmers, attract huge EU funds for infrastructure, and punch above its weight in Brussels, where Irish representatives have been constructive and well-liked.
Gratitude, it would appear, is in short supply."

Perhaps you misunderstand why a large number of people are voting no to the Lisbon Treaty. As you are aware, Ireland is the only country in the EU holding a referendum on this. The reason for this is a stipulation in our Constitution, which states that any changes to our own Constitution must be made by vote of the people, and not by the vote of the government. The Lisbon Treaty changes this - it gives our government the power to change our constitution as it sees fit, without giving the people a chance to vote. Surely you can see how this might worry some Irish citizens?

It means, for all the political talk of it not affecting our neutrality, it does give the government the chance to change our neutral stance without the will of the people. It means that any further treaties such as this would be ratified by the government, instead of the people. An Irish no vote is not a vote against the EU, it's a vote FOR Ireland. We should not be made to feel guilty or ungrateful for protecting such an important part of our own constitution.

Alan

Woo. Go meaningless protesting.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

So I done went and replied to the guy who wrote that article in the Canadian newspaper. : )



Woo. Go meaningless protesting. : D

Good for you Alan... well said Let us know if you get a reply.

Urgh... day before the vote... I'm actually getting nervous and I see FG have bought the covering pages of the metro to advertise a yes vote . I've only read the star this morning and it states all the reasons to vote yes and quotes Brian Cowan repeatedly... over 2 and half pages... and then half a page of Eamonn Dunphy telling us why we should vote no :mad: How the hell is THAT unbiased?

Heineken Helen

seems Poland thinks people are voting no cos we don't like Polish people :rolleyes:

http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/news/artykul84478_Ireland_divided_over_Lisbon_Treaty_.html

On Thursday, a large part of the Irish nation is likely to reject the Lisbon Treaty in the referendum. One of the reasons is the recent immigration from Poland, writes GAZETA WYBORCZA. Many Irish have announced, in opinion polls, that they would say ‘no’ to the treaty to prevent the influx of too many immigrants to Ireland

Heineken Helen

the times implores us to free europe from Lisbon

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4107355.ece

The “yes” camp argues that the Lisbon treaty is essential to the smooth functioning of the EU after enlargement, and that a rejection will throw the institutions into “chaos”. But the European Union is not paralysed. In the past year alone, 177 EU directives have passed into British law.

I've been wondering about that myself.

Heineken Helen

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/10/europe/union.php

"The eventuality of an Irish rejection would be a problem not only for the French presidency but for Europe," Sarkozy said. "It's for the Irish to decide on this, but what Madame Merkel and I have decided is that, whatever happens, the reaction will be a Franco-German one."

right... so the fact that an Irish NO will be reacted to by France and Germany jointly... that should convince me to change my mind and vote for this vunderful united Europe fronted by France and Germany? WTF????? :eek:

Heineken Helen

Hmm... are France already in charge? :mad:

http://euobserver.com/9/26305

"The French white paper on EU defence has been ready for release since May, but the French government are withholding it until after the Irish referendum," the MEP said, demanding that the text be released immediately.

According to the MEP, the Lisbon treaty would force member states to contribute substantial amounts of cash and military expertise to comply with the text's provision on boosting EU military capability, a provision that Paris is ready to take up on as soon as the text has been ratified by all EU member states.

French newspapers reported last month that the Irish government had explicitly asked the French government to keep its defence strategy quiet until after the 12 June referendum. The spokesperson denied knowledge of such a deal

Rhinocerous Surprise

Well, no reply from Mr. Canada yet...

Seriously, what the hell is going on with France? If we vote no, they're gonna be pissed at us? With Germany on their side? That's just trying to bully us... and our government is just playing along.

I wish there was some way to vote no twice. :mad:

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Well, no reply from Mr. Canada yet...

Seriously, what the hell is going on with France? If we vote no, they're gonna be pissed at us? With Germany on their side? That's just trying to bully us... and our government is just playing along.

I wish there was some way to vote no twice. :mad:

I don't understand how France are in charge... I know they're gonna have the presidency soon but seriously why the fuck should we care how THEY want us to vote. Besides, all this talk about how Ireland will be the first to pay... France and Holland were the first people to vote no.. but that's ok? Cos they took the vote from the people and ratified it against their wishes? :mad: URGH... I'm so annoyed at this whole thing. I found out last night that my new German housemate... his dad works for the european commissioner :eek:

JordyWordy

so. polling time is almost up. i aint posted on this thread for a while....

...i imposed a "Lisbon forum blackout" on myself you could say.

i spent my time researching thoroughly.....and this is just to let HH & Rhino know that i never crossed fully over to the "dark side"....i indeed found myself to have massive objections to the internal decision making process that would evolve out of this treaty.


Voted No. It felt right. It felt good. Time for the EU to realise it doesnt need to progress to a a higher level and come back with some integration&unity treaty that is actually about integration and not about superceeding national governments & citizens. Fuck em

Word

Rhinocerous Surprise

JordyWordy wrote:

so. polling time is almost up. i aint posted on this thread for a while....

...i imposed a "Lisbon forum blackout" on myself you could say.

i spent my time researching thoroughly.....and this is just to let HH & Rhino know that i never crossed fully over to the "dark side"....i indeed found myself to have massive objections to the internal decision making process that would evolve out of this treaty.


Voted No. It felt right. It felt good. Time for the EU to realise it doesnt need to progress to a a higher level and come back with some integration&unity treaty that is actually about integration and not about superceeding national governments & citizens. Fuck em

Word

Go Jordy! Also go me, and Hels.

Heineken Helen

JordyWordy wrote:

so. polling time is almost up. i aint posted on this thread for a while....

...i imposed a "Lisbon forum blackout" on myself you could say.

i spent my time researching thoroughly.....and this is just to let HH & Rhino know that i never crossed fully over to the "dark side"....i indeed found myself to have massive objections to the internal decision making process that would evolve out of this treaty.


Voted No. It felt right. It felt good. Time for the EU to realise it doesnt need to progress to a a higher level and come back with some integration&unity treaty that is actually about integration and not about superceeding national governments & citizens. Fuck em

Word

wow, well done for making me smile first thing in the morning.

Carlos D

I voted no,early indications say that the no vote has pretty much won...should we all be quaking in our boots now about what the big bad EU is gonna do now to us to punish us?They'll probably just make us keep voting on it til we vote Yes.