An historical day for Ireland

gaz

redrock wrote:

Suspicious of motive or timing?

You have to think their timing is a bit convenient,why now?It's been almost 87 years not usually a noteworthy anniversary,is it?So why?

Heineken Helen

gaz wrote:

You have to think their timing is a bit convenient,why now?It's been almost 87 years not usually a noteworthy anniversary,is it?So why?

Because maybe the timing is right. Relations are pretty good right now and things have calmed down significantly in the past few years. Why not now??

gaz

Heineken Helen wrote:

Because maybe the timing is right. Relations are pretty good right now and things have calmed down significantly in the past few years. Why not now??

Maybe you're right,why not now?They should'nt have left it for so long,though.

Heineken Helen

gaz wrote:

Maybe you're right,why not now?They should'nt have left it for so long,though.

No, of course they shouldn't have, and I don't believe ANY government doesn't do anything out of the good of their hearts... but considering the steps we've made recently, I think it's their turn. I think maybe we're showing them up a bit and there's a danger they could look even more stubborn than they have done. There's no reason for them NOT to apologise, everyone knows that, maybe it's time they see that too.

Also I think we're big enough now to ACCEPT the apology... well I hope.

Heineken Helen

One thing that shocked me yesterday is that my ex (who is a protestant from the North, not political though) didn't know people actually DIED in Croke Park :eek: . What do people think the big deal is all about? Do they just think it's cos it's such a great stadium? Or do they just think we're making a fuss about nothing? I was surprised the first time I heard that they don't actually teach Irish history in England . I actually got asked once buy an English guy 'what I want to know is what exactly did the English do on the Irish?' as if there was nothing!

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

I was surprised the first time I heard that they don't actually teach Irish history in England

They teach some aspects of it.

I know Scotland had Irish History as part of its History curriculum.

do you get any UK countries history as part of the Irish History Curriculum? (not arguing, actually wondering )

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

They teach some aspects of it.

I know Scotland had Irish History as part of its History curriculum.

do you get any UK countries history as part of the Irish History Curriculum? (not arguing, actually wondering )

Yep, we get the whole 800 years of when they invaded us and other stuff going on at the time in Britain, we also learn about the British empire and stuff like that... quite a bit of British history to be honest. I only say it because I think surely it would be beneficial for them to know why SOME Irish people may be a little bit bitter towards them.

gaz

Heineken Helen wrote:

One thing that shocked me yesterday is that my ex (who is a protestant from the North, not political though) didn't know people actually DIED in Croke Park :eek: . What do people think the big deal is all about? Do they just think it's cos it's such a great stadium? Or do they just think we're making a fuss about nothing? I was surprised the first time I heard that they don't actually teach Irish history in England . I actually got asked once buy an English guy 'what I want to know is what exactly did the English do on the Irish?' as if there was nothing!

Im sorry to say,I'm not surprised in the least by the English chap,but I fuckin am surprised that someone from this island,regardless of religion or backround did'nt know anything about bloody sunday.What did you say to him?

Heineken Helen

gaz wrote:

Im sorry to say,I'm not surprised in the least by the English chap,but I fuckin am surprised that someone from this island,regardless of religion or backround did'nt know anything about bloody sunday.What did you say to him?

well I don't hold anybody's education against them... I blame the system for something like that. How can you hold something against somebody for not knowing something? He's far from a loyalist or a unionist if that's what you're thinking and he hates the whole political thing. There's no point getting disgusted, I told him about it and he can no longer say he doesn't know what happened in Croke park. All it takes is for people to be told and to understand peoples reasons.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

I only say it because I think surely it would be beneficial for them to know why SOME Irish people may be a little bit bitter towards them.

you cant teach kids the "bad history" though


i'm of the opinion that people shouldnt be bitter to a country that maybe did some bad shit to them 400 odd years ago... if i was bitter then i'd have a lot of England hating to do, but i just cant be arsed... why feel bitter about it when it happened years ago, and was done by some men in suits who are long dead...

the world would be a better place without kids growing up holding grudges towards countries methinks.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

you cant teach kids the "bad history" though


i'm of the opinion that people shouldnt be bitter to a country that maybe did some bad shit to them 400 odd years ago... if i was bitter then i'd have a lot of England hating to do, but i just cant be arsed... why feel bitter about it when it happened years ago, and was done by some men in suits who are long dead...

the world would be a better place without kids growing up holding grudges towards countries methinks.

ah but see, and this is the conversation I DIDN'T want to get into, if it ended 400 years ago then yes, you would have a point. But it didn't, I'm sure siochan can tell you a lot about her growing up and this isn't too long ago. Bloody sunday 1 was in 1920, the other in the 60s, the Dublin/Monaghan bombings (which we now know the British government knew about and helped) were in the 70s. People who were around in the 60s and 70s aren't all that old now dunk, it's a very recent thing a lot of it and yes, the bitterness is still there for lots. On the other side you've had the IRA bombings as late as 1998.

I believe kids should NOT grow up holding grudges but that's up to the parents. Two kids go to the same class, one buys a gun, the other runs for government. But we need to know our history. One day we'll be able to look back on it AS history and understand where we and our culture came from (I mean are the English still bitter towards the Romans?) but right now, it's still all too recent for a lot of people.

gaz

Heineken Helen wrote:

well I don't hold anybody's education against them... I blame the system for something like that. How can you hold something against somebody for not knowing something? He's far from a loyalist or a unionist if that's what you're thinking and he hates the whole political thing. There's no point getting disgusted, I told him about it and he can no longer say he doesn't know what happened in Croke park. All it takes is for people to be told and to understand peoples reasons.

Did I mention him being a Loyalist or Unionist or anything else for that matter?No,I did'nt.I simply said I could'nt believe that somebody who grew up in the 32 counties did'nt know about Bloody sunday.That is all I said,ok?I'm glad you told him what happened,now he knows the significance of yesterday in all it's forms and that's a good thing.

Heineken Helen

gaz wrote:

Did I mention him being a Loyalist or Unionist or anything else for that matter?No,I did'nt.I simply said I could'nt believe that somebody who grew up in the 32 counties did'nt know about Bloody sunday.That is all I said,ok?I'm glad you told him what happened,now he knows the significance of yesterday in all it's forms and that's a good thing.

Ok, sorry for taking you up wrong. I do agree with you, I just don't necessarily blame him but it is a bad thing. One thing that makes it easier to deal with though is maybe yesterday DID go the way it was supposed to go and those women and kids who died in Croke park are laughing from wherever they are

moho

I think it isn't fair to centralise the Loyalist/Nationalist thing in this debate at all. Sport is sport and yes Croker being opened up for rugby and soccer should have happened before now, it has played host to American football, boxing and concert but the tradition of soccer and rugby being 'foreign' games is now finally put behind us and hopefully this political aspect need not arise in sport on this island again.

gaz

moho wrote:

I think it isn't fair to centralise the Loyalist/Nationalist thing in this debate at all. Sport is sport and yes Croker being opened up for rugby and soccer should have happened before now, it has played host to American football, boxing and concert but the tradition of soccer and rugby being 'foreign' games is now finally put behind us and hopefully this political aspect need not arise in sport on this island again.

I totally agree,well said!

moho

gaz wrote:

I totally agree,well said!

'Merci!'...... as the french number 14 said to John Hayes as he sidestepped him in the last forty seconds of yesterdays match.

Heineken Helen

Yep, I read in the back of the independant today that Peter Hain may lay a wreath and somebody may apologise . I'm really not sure I could see it happening but if it does this would be HUGE! :eek:

darkcrow

the old enemy have been dispatched once again and the world is shown who are the men and who are the boys.
farrell should go back to his pussy league.
ahhh what a great game. boss's try at the end was just the perfect icing. if this performance has clearly cemented our top 2/3 position in the world. possibly the only team that cna beat the all blacks. i can just smell that tripple crown

Heineken Helen

darkcrow wrote:

the old enemy have been dispatched once again and the world is shown who are the men and who are the boys.
farrell should go back to his pussy league.
ahhh what a great game. boss's try at the end was just the perfect icing. if this performance has clearly cemented our top 2/3 position in the world. possibly the only team that cna beat the all blacks. i can just smell that tripple crown

Wasn't it just amazing??? I'm so glad it all passed off peacefully, I knew the majority wouldn't boo the anthem but I thought there's bound to be one or two small pockets of people who let us all down... but no, the crowd did us proud, the team... well there are no words . I'm just feeling soooooooo smug. There was no slagging in the pub afterwards, I felt so sorry for the English fans and, in fairness, we were there two weeks ago . We've got the triple crown hopefully, the championship is still a possibility but I can't see France tripping up. Regarding the world cup, I'll be happy to see us top the group. We certainly ARE the 2nd best team in the world right now, a 20 second lapse in concentration against France says otherwise but I think it's time for us to do something special.