Finally Illinois U Wakes Up

ryan198

snipes824 wrote:

so your saying if there was an Illini confederation currently who U of I could pay off, it would be ok if it stayed?

You cut down my argument to this one statement. The rest of my argument which provided the context for this statement was that if you aren't getting anything out of it why not sell out? I state above this that it was offensive and abusive, but if nothing was going to be done about it which has historically been the case, then what choice did they have? Because as I see it they had these two choices:
A. Get money, and be misrepresented
B. Get no money, and be misrepresented

snipes824

ryan198 wrote:

For your first comment, what peer reviewed study do you have that shows this?

For your second comment, do you have anything for freedom from oppression or is it ok to use free speech to state/create false impressions of groups of individuals? For instance the term "Redskin" has been deemed offensive, and has prevented the Washington Redskins from securing a patent on their logo...are you against this? I actually think you might be.

You're pretty obsessed with your "peer reviewed" research, which you still have yet to link for me.

As a corollary, I have been made aware of many independant polls of Native Americans who don't find it offensive or abusive. And, most students at the U of I, by a 2:1 margin, are in favor of keeping the chief and see no harm in it. Does that mean that 2/3 of the fan base of Illinois is insensitive and abusive toward Natives?

snipes824

ryan198 wrote:

B. Get no money, and be misrepresented

Edited: It seems to me that that is not an option because Chief Illiniwek has been been disbanded.

farfromglorified

ryan198 wrote:

For your first comment, what peer reviewed study do you have that shows this?

The point is that there is no study that reflects any change. Look, the burden of proof is on the people who want others to change. And when they justify the changes based on their projections of "bettering" Native American lives, they need to prove a) how those lives will actually get better and b) if and when those changes happen, that their contentions were correct.

For your second comment, do you have anything for freedom from oppression or is it ok to use free speech to state/create false impressions of groups of individuals?

Freedom from oppression is very much a moral issue. However, when others use free speech to create false impression of groups of individuals as you did when you referred to UofI fans as racists, the only person being oppressed is the speaker, by their own ignorance.

People who actively oppress others, as do some racist fans of these teams and others, are certainly immoral and deserve punishment. But I have a hard time blaming mascots for those issues as opposed to the actual perpetuators.

There's a reason why the statement is "take offense", rather than "give offense". If you're offended by mascots, that's entirely your right and it's your right to speak out about your offense. However, please do not pretend that it doesn't take two to tango in that exchange.

For instance the term "Redskin" has been deemed offensive, and has prevented the Washington Redskins from securing a patent on their logo...are you against this? I actually think you might be.

Not really, since I'm against patents all together. If whomever happens to be in control of issuing patents today decides that their logo is offensive, they have every right to withhold that patent assuming that it's within their defined rights to do so.

Perhaps you're misunderstanding me. I don't think it's great that teams like UofI or Washington have Native American mascots. If I were running a sports team, I'd much rather stick to the animal kingdom myself. However, I support Washington's right to call themselves the "Redskins", just like I would support Morehouse College's rights to call themselves the "Whities" or your right to call your team the "I hate farfromglorifieds".

inmytree

seriously, why in the hell would anyone oppose changing the name of this mascot...? I really don't get it...the fact that it can be seen as offensive should be enough...

yeah, yeah, that's PC...but so what...we live in a country that should respect others...

it's not that hard....

or is it...?

ryan198

snipes824 wrote:

You're pretty obsessed with your "peer reviewed" research, which you still have yet to link for me.

As a corollary, I have been made aware of many independant polls of Native Americans who don't find it offensive or abusive. And, most students at the U of I, by a 2:1 margin, are in favor of keeping the chief and see no harm in it. Does that mean that 2/3 of the fan base of Illinois is insensitive and abusive toward Natives?

I can send you an article through email if you PM me plus I would direct you to the work of Ellen Staurowsky, Lawrence Baca, C. Richard King, all of which is quite easy to find on the internet for more evidence. Evidence which does provide the burden of evidence farfrom is looking for.

mookie blaylock 10

inmytree wrote:

seriously, why in the hell would anyone oppose changing the name of this mascot...? I really don't get it...the fact that it can be seen as offensive should be enough...

yeah, yeah, that's PC...but so what...we live in a country that should respect others...

it's not that hard....

or is it...?

it shouldn't be that difficult to respect people. it should be as simple as you say, inmytree.

snipes824

inmytree wrote:

seriously, why in the hell would anyone oppose changing the name of this mascot...? I really don't get it...the fact that it can be seen as offensive should be enough...

yeah, yeah, that's PC...but so what...we live in a country that should respect others...

it's not that hard....

or is it...?

because its been a tradition for almost 100 years. why should they have to change it when after they change it the lives of the Native Americans still around today WILL BE NO DIFFERENT.

and you bring up the idea of political correctness. PC sucks. im a jew and if you called me a K*ke or any other name i wouldn't get offended. now dont get me wrong, im very respectful of others, have many black friends, hispanic friends, chinese friends, and i NEVER use words such as the N word of the S word or anything like that. And even though I dont, i still think PC is ridiculous. If i call you retarted is that abusive and hostile towards mentally handicapped individuals?

inmytree

snipes824 wrote:

because its been a tradition for almost 100 years. why should they have to change it when after they change it the lives of the Native Americans still around today WILL BE NO DIFFERENT.

and you bring up the idea of political correctness. PC sucks. im a jew and if you called me a K*ke or any other name i wouldn't get offended. now dont get me wrong, im very respectful of others, have many black friends, hispanic friends, chinese friends, and i NEVER use words such as the N word of the S word or anything like that. And even though I dont, i still think PC is ridiculous. If i call you retarted is that abusive and hostile towards mentally handicapped individuals?

tradition...? who gives a shit...? tradition, big deal...

I guess you could say slavery was a tradition...perhaps hitler was establishing a tradition...for some reason, I would think you would disagree...

by the way, nice backdoor "retard" move...feel free to call me what you wish...it's kinda sad that you'd want to call someone who disagreed with you "retarded"....what's that say about you...:rolleyes:

snipes824

inmytree wrote:

tradition...? who gives a shit...? tradition, big deal...

I guess you could say slavery was a tradition...perhaps hitler was establishing a tradition...for some reason, I would think you would disagree...

by the way, nice backdoor "retard" move...feel free to call me what you wish...it's kinda sad that you'd want to call someone who disagreed with you "retarded"....what's that say about you...:rolleyes:

are you fucking serious? way to read wayyy too much into something. i hadn't even thought of that "backdoor" way to call you a name. jesus relax.

and are you really comparing a halftime show to the institution of slavery? its not even worth debating with you if your going to make that link.

ryan198

my question is that why is being respectful considered PC and not just correct. I think PC implies that we think its actually correct to be an asshole.

mookie blaylock 10

snipes824 wrote:

because its been a tradition for almost 100 years. why should they have to change it when after they change it the lives of the Native Americans still around today WILL BE NO DIFFERENT.

and you bring up the idea of political correctness. PC sucks. im a jew and if you called me a K*ke or any other name i wouldn't get offended. now dont get me wrong, im very respectful of others, have many black friends, hispanic friends, chinese friends, and i NEVER use words such as the N word of the S word or anything like that. And even though I dont, i still think PC is ridiculous. If i call you retarted is that abusive and hostile towards mentally handicapped individuals?

the impact of changing the names would actually have a positive impact on the native american community. it would be a small step in righting one of the many wrongs that have been brought upon them.

100 years ago, native people had no right to choose or voice their opinions about these matters. they were not even considered people by most of society.

what is so bad about giving something back to people that is sacred to them and righting a wrong?

PC is a bullshit cliche term that helps people avoid talking about the difference between right and wrong.

Gary Carter

snipes824 wrote:

So what about Fighting Irish,

while i cant speak for all people who are irish or catholic, most of us dont really give a fuck bout the name

snipes824

mookie blaylock 10 wrote:

the impact of changing the names would actually have a positive impact on the native american community. it would be a small step in righting one of the many wrongs that have been brought upon them.

100 years ago, native people had no right to choose or voice their opinions about these matters. they were not even considered people by most of society.

what is so bad about giving something back to people that is sacred to them and righting a wrong?

PC is a bullshit cliche term that helps people avoid talking about the difference between right and wrong.

and by not letting a mascot dance at halftime we are somehow going to right all those years of wrongdoing? you can't single out 1 institution like that. if this really is a wholistic approach at dissolving all Native American affiliations from NCAA sports teams than the rest should be banned too. otherwise i call bullshit. theres just too much hypocrisy going on. why isnt that slime ball stephen kauffman doing anything about FSU's mascot which is FAR more degrading.

snipes824

metsfan531941 wrote:

while i cant speak for all people who are irish or catholic, most of us dont really give a fuck bout the name

thats my point. most people dont care. but the handful of crazies are getting their way.

mookie blaylock 10

snipes824 wrote:

and by not letting a mascot dance at halftime we are somehow going to right all those years of wrongdoing? you can't single out 1 institution like that. if this really is a wholistic approach at dissolving all Native American affiliations from NCAA sports teams than the rest should be banned too. otherwise i call bullshit. theres just too much hypocrisy going on. why isnt that slime ball stephen kauffman doing anything about FSU's mascot which is FAR more degrading.

it's a step toward righting a wrong. it doesn't instantly solve all the problems or make amends for all of the injustice suffered by native people. you can start changing the way people are viewed and mistreated with small steps like this, however.

i agree, it's not about singling out one institution. it's about getting to the point where a race of people and their heritage is no longer used in a way that is demeaning and insulting.

jlew24asu

metsfan531941 wrote:

while i cant speak for all people who are irish or catholic, most of us dont really give a fuck bout the name

im irish catholic too and I could give a fuck. its a mascot representing a sport. in sports people "fight" to win. same concept applies to Indian mascots.

mookie blaylock 10

it's unfortunate that some of you don't understand.

i am happy, haowever, that you will never have to experience being taunted or having your children taunted by people calling out "tonto", "injun", "redskin" or "hey, cheif". be thankful that you won't be subject to people making axe chopping motions with their hands, or "wah wah" sounds and dancing around you like they think an "indian" would dance. it's good that you will never have to explain to your crying child why people taunt him or her with all of these things that they have seen in movies and on tv, at sporting events and in stadiums. people see those stereotypes and they copy them, they use them to hurt people. maybe if more people stood up and said it was wrong it would be enlightening to others. less people would suffer, less people would grow up feeling hated.

i hope some day some of you will understand, but i don't wish upon any of you what some of my friends have had to go through, being treated like a joke and not knowing why.

inmytree

mookie blaylock 10 wrote:

it's unfortunate that some of you don't understand.

i am happy, haowever, that you will never have to experience being taunted or having your children taunted by people calling out "tonto", "injun", "redskin" or "hey, cheif". be thankful that you won't be subject to people making axe chopping motions with their hands, or "wah wah" sounds and dancing around you like they think an "indian" would dance. it's good that you will never have to explain to your crying child why people taunt him or her with all of these things that they have seen in movies and on tv, at sporting events and in stadiums. people see those stereotypes and they copy them, they use them to hurt people. maybe if more people stood up and said it was wrong it would be enlightening to others. less people would suffer, less people would grow up feeling hated.

i hope some day some of you will understand, but i don't wish upon any of you what some of my friends have had to go through, being treated like a joke and not knowing why.

but mookie, it's tradition...you don't want to stop that do you...?

mookie blaylock 10

inmytree wrote:

but mookie, it's tradition...you don't want to stop that do you...?

right, what was i thinking?!