yeah. i think some people just really like to hold onto 'tradition' as we see elsewhere in our culture. and it's hard for those in the power majority to see (or they just don't want to see) how others are oppressed.
there's a difference between feeling oppressed and actually being oppressed.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i have not seen the film but i have to wonder...how many people were doing these acts? are you going to extrapolate the acts of few (assumed) in the minority to the feelings of the majority? I think that's hardly fair. No one is saying that there isn't tension, but the clear majority (native americans and students / public) of people aren't offended and aren't doing those things.
i'll pm you an article which takes on the validity of your studies if you are interested.
I have argued previously that the fans of UofI are violent anti-Indian racists, watch Act of Honor or Exploitation for further illustration if you don't believe me.
Hehe...it's ironic that you stand opposed to people for making ridiculous generalizations.
Usually you are down with the balancebook, so I tried to argue with you in that vein, sorry.
Usually, I'm down with freedom and the right to own one's labor friend. You need to spend more time reading my posts than reading the rebuttals from those who think I hold the dollar as a moral absolute. I hold what's behind the dollar as a moral absolute.
I like BJ Birdie for our ball club. Ooops! Maybe Toronto should go back to using Blue Jay Birdie. :eek:
I also like our Carleton Bear for the Leafs. Even though the Leafs don't play on Carleton St. anymore. And I don't really know what a bear has to do with the Maple Leafs. But the kids just adore him. He is so snuggly!
And our Raptor for the basketball team. Well, we named a team after a movie, which was depicting a life of a dinosaur. Original??? And that mascot may just piss off the people from the bronze and iron ages. But f em!
And last but not least our Argonauts mascot, Jason. We have had a few pissed off Colchidians protest at the games but they were dispersed with tear gas and billy clubs.
So we piss off sexually repressed people with our baseball team. Real tree hugging Torotonians with a bear for our hockey club. Anyone with a pulse with our basketball club and two Colchidians with our football club.
I agree that we should not use an Indian name as a mascot.....we took the Indian's land, now we use it for sport.....it does not show respect.
I don't understand why people fight so hard to keep a mascot. It is a bit ridiculous. After all, think of all the $$$ Universities could make by selling all knew sporting items with new logos.
It is different if it is a campus with primarily American Indian studens....if they want to use their race as a mascot, that is fine. But it is silly for people to use native american's as mascots when they are not a native american school.
If a school's mascot was called the cotton-pickers, and it was a black slave woman, then that would undoubtedly be offensive, rude, insensitive, etc. What makes it different with Indian mascots?
Perhaps they should change their mascot to Mohhamed....an Middle Eastern looking guy with bombs and rocket launchers. That is offiensive, so why is it any different with Indians?
Hehe...it's ironic that you stand opposed to people for making ridiculous generalizations. Usually, I'm down with freedom and the right to own one's labor friend. You need to spend more time reading my posts than reading the rebuttals from those who think I hold the dollar as a moral absolute. I hold what's behind the dollar as a moral absolute.
farfrom, in order to prevent a bomb, could you please go back to my earlier post where I quite explicitly named a film, An Act of Honor or Exploitation, that quite explicitly shows UofI fans spitting, and acting violently towards Native Americans. I'm not generalizing here, I was actually just repeating visual evidence to people who may have never seen or heard of it. As such I argue that this mascot is not good tradition and should be changed. Given this morally correct assertion you should probably be on my side for this change since Illinois, if they do change their mascot, would be making money for a morally positive reason. Perhaps this is the first time we could actually agree on something other than to disagree.
farfrom, in order to prevent a bomb, could you please go back to my earlier post where I quite explicitly named a film, An Act of Honor or Exploitation, that quite explicitly shows UofI fans spitting, and acting violently towards Native Americans. I'm not generalizing here, I was actually just repeating visual evidence to people who may have never seen or heard of it.
I'm quite sure there are some UofI fans who spit or act violently towards Native Americans. Furthermore, I'm quite sure there are non-UofI fans who do that too. Regardless, you said this:
"I have argued previously that the fans of UofI are violent anti-Indian racists"
Nowhere in there did you indicate the fact that most UofI students are not anti-Indian racists. Furthermore, you can point to no evidence suggesting that fans of teams with Indian mascots are more likely to be racists.
As such I argue that this mascot is not good tradition and should be changed. Given this morally correct assertion you should probably be on my side for this change since Illinois, if they do change their mascot, would be making money for a morally positive reason. Perhaps this is the first time we could actually agree on something other than to disagree.
I will never be on the side of someone who wishes to make money by forcing their ideology on someone else, or someone who simply becomes what they pretend to hate in order to get their way. Sorry.
I agree that we should not use an Indian name as a mascot.....we took the Indian's land, now we use it for sport.....it does not show respect.
I don't understand why people fight so hard to keep a mascot. It is a bit ridiculous. After all, think of all the $$$ Universities could make by selling all knew sporting items with new logos.
It is different if it is a campus with primarily American Indian studens....if they want to use their race as a mascot, that is fine. But it is silly for people to use native american's as mascots when they are not a native american school.
If a school's mascot was called the cotton-pickers, and it was a black slave woman, then that would undoubtedly be offensive, rude, insensitive, etc. What makes it different with Indian mascots?
Perhaps they should change their mascot to Mohhamed....an Middle Eastern looking guy with bombs and rocket launchers. That is offiensive, so why is it any different with Indians?
Let's have the New York Hymies... or the Atlanta Tar Babies... maybe the Los Angeles Kikes... or the Drunken Irish of Notre Dame... the New Jersey Spics... the San Diego Beaners... San Francisco Chinks... Alabama Inbred Redneck Tide. They can all have cool mascots... like a Jew who runs around kissing money... or a Spear Chucker Cannibal... or a redneck with his pregnant sister/wife driving around the track in an El Camino, dragging a dead n*gger from the bumper. It'll be cute, not offensive... after all... it's only sports, right? What's the harm, right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm quite sure there are some UofI fans who spit or act violently towards Native Americans. Furthermore, I'm quite sure there are non-UofI fans who do that too. Regardless, you said this:
"I have argued previously that the fans of UofI are violent anti-Indian racists"
Nowhere in there did you indicate the fact that most UofI students are not anti-Indian racists. Furthermore, you can point to no evidence suggesting that fans of teams with Indian mascots are more likely to be racists.
I will never be on the side of someone who wishes to make money by forcing their ideology on someone else, or someone who simply becomes what they pretend to hate in order to get their way. Sorry.
Farfrom I'm sorry that I had an opinion of you that perhaps you could see that I was making an attempt at connecting with your ideological beliefs to foster positive change through this board. Instead, in all of your self-centered righteousness, you can't even seen that. Of course I don't care about the sale of goods, but you have expressed this in the past, so I tried to appeal to your sensibilities in order to demonstrate that this shift would have positive consequences for more than just some liberal ideologue (or whatever you think I am). I guess I'll go take a shit and wipe my ass with some of chief illiniwek toilet paper (yes you can buy this) b/c it's tradition baby.
Let's have the New York Hymies... or the Atlanta Tar Babies... maybe the Los Angeles Kikes... or the Drunken Irish of Notre Dame... the New Jersey Spics... the San Diego Beaners... San Francisco Chinks... Alabama Inbred Redneck Tide. They can all have cool mascots... like a Jew who runs around kissing money... or a Spear Chucker Cannibal... or a redneck with his pregnant sister/wife driving around the track in an El Camino, dragging a dead n*gger the bumper. It'll be cute, not offensive... after all... it's only sports, right? What's the harm, right?
every name you mentioned is demeaning and derogatory . being called an illini is not.
using native tribe names has always been a way for the white people to keep their "power" over a culture they have oppressed, and in many cases killed, over the history of both our countries. to see tens of thousands of people dress up in what they believe to be traditional headgear, to chant in what they believe to be "indian" chants, and to do tomohawk motions is simply disgusting. it pays no homage to anyone, and there is no place for it in this day and time. there is no learning that comes from it. people will say, well the cheifs of the tribe have gone along with it, or the tribe agrees with it. well some of them have sold their history because they have to, because they are poor, because they have been oppressed for so long that they no longer know what it feels like to be free and not mocked or ridiculed. some of the cases are merely scams.
people will say, well where does it stop? they'll throw around the term "PC" to make themselves feel better, when it has always been a case of right and wrong. you can't excuse what is wrong and stealing a people's heritage is wrong. naming teams after the colour of skin is wrong. perpetuating stereotypes on the grand scale that collegiate sports teams do is wrong.
the names should never have been used in the first place, and it's high time they were changed, but it's a joke to most people. when atlanta and cleveland played in the world series and their racist mascots and symbols were protested against by native peoples, the ACLU turned a blind eye and the protestors were mocked, recieved racial slurs, and had things thrown at them as people went inside to cheer on their teams (which there is nothing wrong with) and to mock a culture (which there is something wrong with).
every name you mentioned is demeaning and derogatory . being called an illini is not.
Yes but doing a false war dance, usuing false war music, and wearing false dress, and wearing false headress, and wearing false war paint, performed by someone who isn't even Native American is.
Farfrom I'm sorry that I had an opinion of you that perhaps you could see that I was making an attempt at connecting with your ideological beliefs to foster positive change through this board.
There's no need for an apology to me. Your mischaracterizations of me and my opinions neither harm me nor do they offend me. You attempted to convince me by pretending to care what I care about. Not only was it dishonest, it was simply incorrect. And that only harms you.
Instead, in all of your self-centered righteousness, you can't even seen that.
I completely saw that. However, you incorrectly assigned to me ideological beliefs that I don't have, in the name of change I don't consider positive.
Of course I don't care about the sale of goods, but you have expressed this in the past, so I tried to appeal to your sensibilities in order to demonstrate that this shift would have positive consequences for more than just some liberal ideologue (or whatever you think I am). I guess I'll go take a shit and wipe my ass with some of chief illiniwek toilet paper (yes you can buy this) b/c it's tradition baby.
Yes but doing a false war dance, usuing false war music, and wearing false dress, and wearing false headress, and wearing false war paint, performed by someone who isn't even Native American is.
every name you mentioned is demeaning and derogatory . being called an illini is not.
...
Okay... Mascot only. How about 'Rabbi Tax Dodger' for the Los Angeles Dodgers? Every time a Dodger hits a home run... the Kike Mascot dives into a pool of money and rolls around in it. Being called a Dodger is not derogatory, is it?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yes but doing a false war dance, usuing false war music, and wearing false dress, and wearing false headress, and wearing false war paint, performed by someone who isn't even Native American is.
So let me get this straight, you see that putting a native american symbol on toilet paper is wrong, that many fans of the UofI buy this and other goods that use this symbol, that the mascot is a complete false depiction of any native american indian tribe, that as part of the mind-numbing assault our country has had on native american culture through popular culture, and government intervention which has led to the genocide of millions, not to mention helped cultivate an ethinic grouping in which 1 in every 3 persons who are a part of it attempt suicide, and you don't want to change -even a little part- of it?
...
Okay... Mascot only. How about 'Rabbi Tax Dodger' for the Los Angeles Dodgers? Every time a Dodger hits a home run... the Kike Mascot dives into a pool of money and rolls around in it. Being called a Dodger is not derogatory, is it?
whenever you are ready to give a real example
...
let me know
jury is out on that one. is that considered a racial slur? if native americans say it is then I'll agree.
but no native americans are crying foul about the illini dancing, his face paint, or outfit. seems more like that recognize it as an honor.
Yes "Redskin" is the equivalent of "Nigger" which is why Washington, the team that represents our nation's capitol no less, can't get a patent on their logo. And, if you watch the film that I have told you about several times on this thread, you will see that people, specifically Native American students at UofI, and others have complained about the dancing, his face paint, AND outfit.
check out Honor or Exploitation, it goes through how everything is all made up...that none of it is tradition, but that the people who have the power at Illinois will keep up the misinformation to its students so that they don't have to change this "tradition".
Yes "Redskin" is the equivalent of "Nigger" which is why Washington, the team that represents our nation's capitol no less, can't get a patent on their logo. And, if you watch the film that I have told you about several times on this thread, you will see that people, specifically Native American students at UofI, and others have complained about the dancing, his face paint, AND outfit.
ok I may be with you on redskin. I am no fan of that name. but illini. not that same
wait blackface is offensive? but it was a tradition right? and apparantly if changing that tradition will make money for someone then it shouldn't be changed.
Comments
there's a difference between feeling oppressed and actually being oppressed.
Hehe...it's ironic that you stand opposed to people for making ridiculous generalizations.
Usually, I'm down with freedom and the right to own one's labor friend. You need to spend more time reading my posts than reading the rebuttals from those who think I hold the dollar as a moral absolute. I hold what's behind the dollar as a moral absolute.
I also like our Carleton Bear for the Leafs. Even though the Leafs don't play on Carleton St. anymore. And I don't really know what a bear has to do with the Maple Leafs. But the kids just adore him. He is so snuggly!
And our Raptor for the basketball team. Well, we named a team after a movie, which was depicting a life of a dinosaur. Original??? And that mascot may just piss off the people from the bronze and iron ages. But f em!
And last but not least our Argonauts mascot, Jason. We have had a few pissed off Colchidians protest at the games but they were dispersed with tear gas and billy clubs.
So we piss off sexually repressed people with our baseball team. Real tree hugging Torotonians with a bear for our hockey club. Anyone with a pulse with our basketball club and two Colchidians with our football club.
I'd like to read it.
I don't understand why people fight so hard to keep a mascot. It is a bit ridiculous. After all, think of all the $$$ Universities could make by selling all knew sporting items with new logos.
It is different if it is a campus with primarily American Indian studens....if they want to use their race as a mascot, that is fine. But it is silly for people to use native american's as mascots when they are not a native american school.
If a school's mascot was called the cotton-pickers, and it was a black slave woman, then that would undoubtedly be offensive, rude, insensitive, etc. What makes it different with Indian mascots?
Perhaps they should change their mascot to Mohhamed....an Middle Eastern looking guy with bombs and rocket launchers. That is offiensive, so why is it any different with Indians?
farfrom, in order to prevent a bomb, could you please go back to my earlier post where I quite explicitly named a film, An Act of Honor or Exploitation, that quite explicitly shows UofI fans spitting, and acting violently towards Native Americans. I'm not generalizing here, I was actually just repeating visual evidence to people who may have never seen or heard of it. As such I argue that this mascot is not good tradition and should be changed. Given this morally correct assertion you should probably be on my side for this change since Illinois, if they do change their mascot, would be making money for a morally positive reason. Perhaps this is the first time we could actually agree on something other than to disagree.
I'm quite sure there are some UofI fans who spit or act violently towards Native Americans. Furthermore, I'm quite sure there are non-UofI fans who do that too. Regardless, you said this:
"I have argued previously that the fans of UofI are violent anti-Indian racists"
Nowhere in there did you indicate the fact that most UofI students are not anti-Indian racists. Furthermore, you can point to no evidence suggesting that fans of teams with Indian mascots are more likely to be racists.
I will never be on the side of someone who wishes to make money by forcing their ideology on someone else, or someone who simply becomes what they pretend to hate in order to get their way. Sorry.
thank you for getting it.
Hail, Hail!!!
Farfrom I'm sorry that I had an opinion of you that perhaps you could see that I was making an attempt at connecting with your ideological beliefs to foster positive change through this board. Instead, in all of your self-centered righteousness, you can't even seen that. Of course I don't care about the sale of goods, but you have expressed this in the past, so I tried to appeal to your sensibilities in order to demonstrate that this shift would have positive consequences for more than just some liberal ideologue (or whatever you think I am). I guess I'll go take a shit and wipe my ass with some of chief illiniwek toilet paper (yes you can buy this) b/c it's tradition baby.
every name you mentioned is demeaning and derogatory . being called an illini is not.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=230173&highlight=cheif
using native tribe names has always been a way for the white people to keep their "power" over a culture they have oppressed, and in many cases killed, over the history of both our countries. to see tens of thousands of people dress up in what they believe to be traditional headgear, to chant in what they believe to be "indian" chants, and to do tomohawk motions is simply disgusting. it pays no homage to anyone, and there is no place for it in this day and time. there is no learning that comes from it. people will say, well the cheifs of the tribe have gone along with it, or the tribe agrees with it. well some of them have sold their history because they have to, because they are poor, because they have been oppressed for so long that they no longer know what it feels like to be free and not mocked or ridiculed. some of the cases are merely scams.
people will say, well where does it stop? they'll throw around the term "PC" to make themselves feel better, when it has always been a case of right and wrong. you can't excuse what is wrong and stealing a people's heritage is wrong. naming teams after the colour of skin is wrong. perpetuating stereotypes on the grand scale that collegiate sports teams do is wrong.
the names should never have been used in the first place, and it's high time they were changed, but it's a joke to most people. when atlanta and cleveland played in the world series and their racist mascots and symbols were protested against by native peoples, the ACLU turned a blind eye and the protestors were mocked, recieved racial slurs, and had things thrown at them as people went inside to cheer on their teams (which there is nothing wrong with) and to mock a culture (which there is something wrong with).
we are not your fucking mascots.
how about a "Redskin"...?
There's no need for an apology to me. Your mischaracterizations of me and my opinions neither harm me nor do they offend me. You attempted to convince me by pretending to care what I care about. Not only was it dishonest, it was simply incorrect. And that only harms you.
I completely saw that. However, you incorrectly assigned to me ideological beliefs that I don't have, in the name of change I don't consider positive.
I have no desire to do that, nor would I.
indeed.
Okay... Mascot only. How about 'Rabbi Tax Dodger' for the Los Angeles Dodgers? Every time a Dodger hits a home run... the Kike Mascot dives into a pool of money and rolls around in it. Being called a Dodger is not derogatory, is it?
Hail, Hail!!!
jury is out on that one. is that considered a racial slur? if native americans say it is then I'll agree.
but no native americans are crying foul about the illini dancing, his face paint, or outfit. seems more like that recognize it as an honor.
it is all false? says who?
whenever you are ready to give a real example
...
let me know
http://www.retirethechief.org/notamascot.html
exactly.
ok I may be with you on redskin. I am no fan of that name. but illini. not that same
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Keggy_the_Keg.JPG
Unless people find it offensive that it offends recovering alcoholics.
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