Chief Illiniwek danced his last racist dance. Could it be that Illinois realized it was acting in a ridiculous manner by allowing an offensive mascot to survive for 81 years, or was it the threat of NCAA sanctions that have ended this minstrel act performed in red-face? Either way it's a step in the right direction, and hopefully others will follow suit.
Most of the tribes support the use of their names as college mascots!!!!
"Everyone is a patriot in some form or another.... i prefer the intelligent ones."
i never thought i'd see the day. well hopefully they pick something good to replace it. years ago they tossed around the idea of 'prairie fire' and that's just awful.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
you seem to be more concerned about the people being spit on that the actual use of an Indian mascot.
You got it. My point is that if Indian mascots were so deferential, and invoked such pride and reverence towards real Native Americans in the white people that depict them and "celebrate" them through mascots like the Chief, then wouldn't these people be more respectful in listening to the complaints posed by actual Native American Indians? What I'm pointing out is the irony that the very people who argue that the Chief is a source of pride, are the same individuals who would attack a real person, thus rendering their claims that the Chief is a form of respect towards Native American's is completely illogical.
You got it. My point is that if Indian mascots were so deferential, and invoked such pride and reverence towards real Native Americans in the white people that depict them and "celebrate" them through mascots like the Chief, then wouldn't these people be more respectful in listening to the complaints posed by actual Native American Indians? What I'm pointing out is the irony that the very people who argue that the Chief is a source of pride, are the same individuals who would attack a real person, thus rendering their claims that the Chief is a form of respect towards Native American's is completely illogical.
yeah. i think some people just really like to hold onto 'tradition' as we see elsewhere in our culture. and it's hard for those in the power majority to see (or they just don't want to see) how others are oppressed.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Another example of PC liberalism gone too far. Its a freaking Mascot that danced around!
Its not like they had the mascot walk around and recreate the trail of tears.
Miller would you like it if at the next International event when Venezuela is there if they had a team mascot called "the American". The mascot would come out to some rock music like Bushleaguer and be dressed in a corporate business suit and would have a W mask, and would dance around pretending to take money from the minorities in the crowd, and randomly shooting a fake gun at everyone who represented a country other than the U.S. Then other teams would have pep-rally hanging "the American" in effigy, and sing songs about how they were going to kill the American, etc. That's what happens when teams use Native American Mascots to represent them, so it's not a stretch to think that this could happen.
You got it. My point is that if Indian mascots were so deferential, and invoked such pride and reverence towards real Native Americans in the white people that depict them and "celebrate" them through mascots like the Chief, then wouldn't these people be more respectful in listening to the complaints posed by actual Native American Indians? What I'm pointing out is the irony that the very people who argue that the Chief is a source of pride, are the same individuals who would attack a real person, thus rendering their claims that the Chief is a form of respect towards Native American's is completely illogical.
so do you support or not support the use of such names like.....
What I don't get is that the Chief wasn't do anything dis-respectful. He would go do a native dance during halftime. If I were an American Indian I would be far more upset about the Cleveland Indians (name and stupid smiling logo) and the Washington Redskins. That's disrespectful.
The feeling at U of I games when the chief is out isn't "look at the moron dancing'' it's very respectful.
in that case you confuse condescension with empathy.
Hehehe....there's nothing "empathetic" about your position. It flies in the face of the way most people view this issue. You're pretending to put yourself in someone else's shoes which is, effectively, no different than what these stupid mascots are doing. Furthermore, you're standing opposed to people who are supporting those mascots for harmless reasons of tradition and identification and have probably never even considered their viewpoints and instead just branded them as racist or ignorant or insensitive.
Miller would you like it if at the next International event when Venezuela is there if they had a team mascot called "the American". The mascot would come out to some rock music like Bushleaguer and be dressed in a corporate business suit and would have a W mask, and would dance around pretending to take money from the minorities in the crowd, and randomly shooting a fake gun at everyone who represented a country other than the U.S. Then other teams would have pep-rally hanging "the American" in effigy, and sing songs about how they were going to kill the American, etc. That's what happens when teams use Native American Mascots to represent them, so it's not a stretch to think that this could happen.
Honestly it doesnt bother me one bit...but i think your going to the extreme here.
so do you support or not support the use of such names like.....
dallas cowboys, Illini, florida Seminoles
if not. why?
Given the current state of affairs I would say no...look at the posts that I put up previously for why not. Mascots are not a form respect if it does not lead you to treat the actual people that the mascots are representing with respect. If there were a bunch of cowboys, or irish people opposing their mascots getting spit on and abused, then I would feel similarly toward removing their mascots - it just doesn't happen. I would surmise that it doesn't happen for those two teams b/c the people who came up with these mascots represent the body of fans who follow them. Contrarily in the case of the Redskins, Indians, Illinis, it is predominantly white fans who are celebrating a mascot of a different ethnic make-up.
Honestly it doesnt bother me one bit...but i think your going to the extreme here.
How am I going to the extreme here? How many actual Indians wear war paint, do the tomohawk chop, make up "victory dances", or perform various forms of war whooping? Not many, yet most teams with a Native American mascot have individuals or fans who perform these rituals. Moreover, when oppenents play these teams they often (ab)use the mascot for who they are playing. This isn't extreme it's reality, and it would be the same thing if a team came out and was named the Americans.
Miller would you like it if at the next International event when Venezuela is there if they had a team mascot called "the American". The mascot would come out to some rock music like Bushleaguer and be dressed in a corporate business suit and would have a W mask, and would dance around pretending to take money from the minorities in the crowd, and randomly shooting a fake gun at everyone who represented a country other than the U.S. Then other teams would have pep-rally hanging "the American" in effigy, and sing songs about how they were going to kill the American, etc. That's what happens when teams use Native American Mascots to represent them, so it's not a stretch to think that this could happen.
You made "the American" a villain. Mascots represent who the fans cheer for not against. People that love a team usually love their mascot. You explain "the American" as if he were the mascot for the team that's playing against the Iranian Globetrotters... someone that's created/used just to be hated. That's not how it really works. Sure, Buckeyes fans hang the Illini mascot and Illini fans hang the Buckeye, why doesn't anyone care about the nut?
Hehehe....there's nothing "empathetic" about your position. It flies in the face of the way most people view this issue. You're pretending to put yourself in someone else's shoes which is, effectively, no different than what these stupid mascots are doing. Furthermore, you're standing opposed to people who are supporting those mascots for harmless reasons of tradition and identification and have probably never even considered their viewpoints and instead just branded them as racist or ignorant or insensitive.
tradition and identification are not always "harmless". I mean slavery was tradition for many years, as was preventing women from voting, as well as many other quite harmful things. Besides, if you are looking to make money, no team/school that has changed their mascot ever lost money on that shift.
What I don't get is that the Chief wasn't do anything dis-respectful. He would go do a native dance during halftime. If I were an American Indian I would be far more upset about the Cleveland Indians (name and stupid smiling logo) and the Washington Redskins. That's disrespectful.
The feeling at U of I games when the chief is out isn't "look at the moron dancing'' it's very respectful.
Watch act of honor or exploitation, you'll see that the dance is quite disrespectful to the people it's supposed to be representing...that's all I'm saying. Moreover, Cleveland, Washington, etc. aren't any better, they are all pretty bad to be honest.
How am I going to the extreme here? How many actual Indians wear war paint, do the tomohawk chop, make up "victory dances", or perform various forms of war whooping? Not many, yet most teams with a Native American mascot have individuals or fans who perform these rituals. Moreover, when oppenents play these teams they often (ab)use the mascot for who they are playing. This isn't extreme it's reality, and it would be the same thing if a team came out and was named the Americans.
Ive seen cowboys be abused by indians...i didnt call for it to be stopped. Its a mascot; it doesnt stand for anything allegorical.
Ive seen cowboys be abused by indians...i didnt call for it to be stopped. Its a mascot; it doesnt stand for anything allegorical.
Besides cowboys being abused by indians, in what other ways are white men invoked in popular culture? Hundreds...Thousands...Millions? Some are good, some are bad, some both, but there are alternatives right? Now how many ways have you ever seen an Indian depicted in popular culture?
perhaps we should change the St Louis Cardinals mascot to a real roman catholic cardinal...and the mascot could be an old man who chases the bat boys around the field....
Besides cowboys being abused by indians, in what other ways are white men invoked in popular culture? Hundreds...Thousands...Millions? Some are good, some are bad, some both, but there are alternatives right? Now how many ways have you ever seen an Indian depicted in popular culture?
I watched Geronimo and sometimes i gamble at the casinos
perhaps we should change the St Louis Cardinals mascot to a real roman catholic cardinal...and the mascot could be an old man who chases the bat boys around the field....
lol Thats hysterical. Or we can have a liberal mascot, who cries constantly and hugs trees.
tradition and identification are not always "harmless".
I never said they were always harmless. In this case, however, they are. If Chief Illiniwick was scalping people or was turning U of I students into violent anti-Indian racists, then we could have a serious discussion about reconsidering his position.
I mean slavery was tradition for many years, as was preventing women from voting, as well as many other quite harmful things. Besides, if you are looking to make money, no team/school that has changed their mascot ever lost money on that shift.
I don't care about monetary losses or gains associated with mascots. You're talking about moral issues here and balancebook can't be used to justify a morality.
I never said they were always harmless. In this case, however, they are. If Chief Illiniwick was scalping people or was turning U of I students into violent anti-Indian racists, then we could have a serious discussion about reconsidering his position. I don't care about monetary losses or gains associated with mascots. You're talking about moral issues here and balancebook can't be used to justify a morality.
I have argued previously that the fans of UofI are violent anti-Indian racists, watch Act of Honor or Exploitation for further illustration if you don't believe me. Usually you are down with the balancebook, so I tried to argue with you in that vein, sorry.
i think it's ridiculous to care about something like this...i have never identified a team with their mascot...people are stupid for thinking that this is a big deal...or that it matters even a slight amount.
I watched Geronimo and sometimes i gamble at the casinos
So gambling, drinking, scalping, and war-like, are the popular depictions of Native American's that I'm gathering from you. Do you not see a trend here?
i think it's ridiculous to care about something like this...i have never identified a team with their mascot...people are stupid for thinking that this is a big deal...or that it matters even a slight amount.
Just because you don't, or haven't, does not mean other people don't or haven't. Furthermore, everything matters a slight amount. If you don't believe me I have an academic article written in 2002 that refutes many of the "polls" that have come out "clearly showing" that Native Americans don't care if you are interested.
Chief Innikiwik is extremely offensive. They act like the dance he does is authentic. its not authentic. Its a made up dance. No native Americans danced like that.
It is a dance that anger and upsets many Native Americans and rightly so. Imagine if someone made a halftime show where they made fun of Christianity. Do you think a mascot that made fun of Christians would have been tolerated for this long? Hell no.
Native Americans shouldnt be mascots. Plain and simple. They are people. Human beings with feelings, and are not caricatures, or stereotypes or anything else.
What amazes me, is that when the Native American community voiced its opposition long ago to this mascot, the University didnt even raise an eyebrow. One has to understand everything in that part of town has that Native American figure, chief illiniwik on it. Everything, from stores, to clothes etc... And instead of listening to the concerns of these people, the university silenced them.
Illinois U, should be ashamed of itself, it should have heard and listened to the concerns long ago.
At the University of Oregon, a similar situation exists, when a few years ago mass students protested the university, because it was being funded by Nike and Phil Knight, who donates generously to the University. Instead of getting into debates and talking, the University refused to listen to the students concern, after all alot of the Universities funding comes from Phil Knight.
One can imagine, or maybe one cant imagine, the pain, the awful pain, these native Americans must feel, when seeing their culture mocked and stepped on like this, and thats what Chief illiniwik is, its mocking culture. It taunts. The clothes he dresses in are advertised as authentic, and his dance is called authentic, but both are not authentic. They are made up.
Indeed anyone who continues to think the mascot should be used, they are racist and complete idiots. The Native Americans dont like the mascot, that should be enough to warrant this thing from being used again.
Its amazing, how fickle people are. The University is more concerned about revenue, and it doesnt want to lose face and admit that the mascot they use, and the dances and clothes it wears is fake and false. The fans of illinios dont want to have things change. They seem to think if the mascot changes then something awful is occuring.
No one seems to want to listen and understand the Native American perspective.
As I said before, cultures shouldnt be mascots. Native Americans are heros, and important people. We stole their land, killed most of their population, killed off the buffallo, we introduced fire water to them, we introduced small pox to them, we introduced 401 treaties and not one was honored by us, we forced them off their land to live in poverty on reservations, and many continue to rot in jail for crimes they didnt commit an example being Leonard Peltier.
The least we can do is change the mascot.
I am so sick of people acting like their actions have no effect on people. If you mocked the Natives, what the hell did you think would happen?
i'm not trying to cheapen anything but when you look at the intentions of the group and find that a majority of people aren't offended by it, it really makes you wonder if people are making too much out of it.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
The link is all well and good, but if you want to see the filmed reality of it watch the film that I posted. It actually shows what people in the coalition against the use of mascots go through, particularly at the UofI. They show that the Illini tribe was all made up, and that the dress is inauthentic and made up for show as well. Then, there's the spitting, and the threats of sex and violence that end up on their answering machines. If people at the UofI are so reverent towards their mascot, why aren't they so respectful of actual Indians is my question?
i have not seen the film but i have to wonder...how many people were doing these acts? are you going to extrapolate the acts of few (assumed) in the minority to the feelings of the majority? I think that's hardly fair. No one is saying that there isn't tension, but the clear majority (native americans and students / public) of people aren't offended and aren't doing those things.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Comments
Most of the tribes support the use of their names as college mascots!!!!
"She fell funny"
"Klaus Daimler, 40, engineer, calm, collected, German"
cross the river to the eastside
Its not like they had the mascot walk around and recreate the trail of tears.
yeah. i think some people just really like to hold onto 'tradition' as we see elsewhere in our culture. and it's hard for those in the power majority to see (or they just don't want to see) how others are oppressed.
cross the river to the eastside
so do you support or not support the use of such names like.....
dallas cowboys, Illini, florida Seminoles
if not. why?
The feeling at U of I games when the chief is out isn't "look at the moron dancing'' it's very respectful.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Hehehe....there's nothing "empathetic" about your position. It flies in the face of the way most people view this issue. You're pretending to put yourself in someone else's shoes which is, effectively, no different than what these stupid mascots are doing. Furthermore, you're standing opposed to people who are supporting those mascots for harmless reasons of tradition and identification and have probably never even considered their viewpoints and instead just branded them as racist or ignorant or insensitive.
Honestly it doesnt bother me one bit...but i think your going to the extreme here.
Why should i feel bad for being white?
You made "the American" a villain. Mascots represent who the fans cheer for not against. People that love a team usually love their mascot. You explain "the American" as if he were the mascot for the team that's playing against the Iranian Globetrotters... someone that's created/used just to be hated. That's not how it really works. Sure, Buckeyes fans hang the Illini mascot and Illini fans hang the Buckeye, why doesn't anyone care about the nut?
Ive seen cowboys be abused by indians...i didnt call for it to be stopped. Its a mascot; it doesnt stand for anything allegorical.
I watched Geronimo and sometimes i gamble at the casinos
lol Thats hysterical. Or we can have a liberal mascot, who cries constantly and hugs trees.
I never said they were always harmless. In this case, however, they are. If Chief Illiniwick was scalping people or was turning U of I students into violent anti-Indian racists, then we could have a serious discussion about reconsidering his position.
I don't care about monetary losses or gains associated with mascots. You're talking about moral issues here and balancebook can't be used to justify a morality.
that wouldn't make sense...
from my window to yours
It is a dance that anger and upsets many Native Americans and rightly so. Imagine if someone made a halftime show where they made fun of Christianity. Do you think a mascot that made fun of Christians would have been tolerated for this long? Hell no.
Native Americans shouldnt be mascots. Plain and simple. They are people. Human beings with feelings, and are not caricatures, or stereotypes or anything else.
What amazes me, is that when the Native American community voiced its opposition long ago to this mascot, the University didnt even raise an eyebrow. One has to understand everything in that part of town has that Native American figure, chief illiniwik on it. Everything, from stores, to clothes etc... And instead of listening to the concerns of these people, the university silenced them.
Illinois U, should be ashamed of itself, it should have heard and listened to the concerns long ago.
At the University of Oregon, a similar situation exists, when a few years ago mass students protested the university, because it was being funded by Nike and Phil Knight, who donates generously to the University. Instead of getting into debates and talking, the University refused to listen to the students concern, after all alot of the Universities funding comes from Phil Knight.
One can imagine, or maybe one cant imagine, the pain, the awful pain, these native Americans must feel, when seeing their culture mocked and stepped on like this, and thats what Chief illiniwik is, its mocking culture. It taunts. The clothes he dresses in are advertised as authentic, and his dance is called authentic, but both are not authentic. They are made up.
Indeed anyone who continues to think the mascot should be used, they are racist and complete idiots. The Native Americans dont like the mascot, that should be enough to warrant this thing from being used again.
Its amazing, how fickle people are. The University is more concerned about revenue, and it doesnt want to lose face and admit that the mascot they use, and the dances and clothes it wears is fake and false. The fans of illinios dont want to have things change. They seem to think if the mascot changes then something awful is occuring.
No one seems to want to listen and understand the Native American perspective.
As I said before, cultures shouldnt be mascots. Native Americans are heros, and important people. We stole their land, killed most of their population, killed off the buffallo, we introduced fire water to them, we introduced small pox to them, we introduced 401 treaties and not one was honored by us, we forced them off their land to live in poverty on reservations, and many continue to rot in jail for crimes they didnt commit an example being Leonard Peltier.
The least we can do is change the mascot.
I am so sick of people acting like their actions have no effect on people. If you mocked the Natives, what the hell did you think would happen?
i'm not trying to cheapen anything but when you look at the intentions of the group and find that a majority of people aren't offended by it, it really makes you wonder if people are making too much out of it.
i have not seen the film but i have to wonder...how many people were doing these acts? are you going to extrapolate the acts of few (assumed) in the minority to the feelings of the majority? I think that's hardly fair. No one is saying that there isn't tension, but the clear majority (native americans and students / public) of people aren't offended and aren't doing those things.