So let me get this straight, you see that putting a native american symbol on toilet paper is wrong
Not really, no. I think it's silly and ridiculous. But "wrong"??? Maybe that word is a bit too strong for me and carries different connotations than it does for you.
that many fans of the UofI buy this and other goods that use this symbol, that the mascot is a complete false depiction of any native american indian tribe, that as part of the mind-numbing assault our country has had on native american culture through popular culture, and government intervention which has led to the genocide of millions, not to mention helped cultivate an ethinic grouping in which 1 in every 3 persons who are a part of it attempt suicide, and you don't want to change -even a little part- of it?
If you think getting rid of Chief Illiniwek is going to "change the culture" or pull anyone off the noose, I'm not sure we can have anything approaching a reasonable discussion.
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Okay... Mascot only. How about 'Rabbi Tax Dodger' for the Los Angeles Dodgers? Every time a Dodger hits a home run... the Kike Mascot dives into a pool of money and rolls around in it. Being called a Dodger is not derogatory, is it?
And the rest of us could say that we see nothing wrong with it while others complain.
whenever you are ready to give a real example
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let me know
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It's the same thing. If only the Jews complained... so what, why listen to them? Native Americans have been complaining about the Redskins (who represent the Nation's Capitol)... and people claim heritage for the team, disregarding heritage for a people.
If non-Jews complained... well, they're just bleeding heart Political Correctness nuts and who cares what they think... they get offended by everything.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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It's the same thing. If only the Jews complained... so what, why listen to them? Native Americans have been complaining about the Redskins (who represent the Nation's Capitol)... and people claim heritage for the team, disregarding heritage for a people.
If non-Jews complained... well, they're just bleeding heart Political Correctness nuts and who cares what they think... they get offended by everything.
we arent talking about the redskins. like I said, I'm no fan of that name.
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we are takling about the illini. which in no way is offensive unlike your cute jew example.
Not really, no. I think it's silly and ridiculous. But "wrong"??? Maybe that word is a bit too strong for me and carries different connotations than it does for you. If you think getting rid of Chief Illiniwek is going to "change the culture" or pull anyone off the noose, I'm not sure we can have anything approaching a reasonable discussion.
So if I had a team called the Ayn Rand's, and I had Ayn Rand toilet paper where I wiped shit on her face you'd be cool with that? Actually you probably wouldn't have a problem with it b/c there are positive depictions of Ayn Rand in popular and general culture, so you had alternatives to go to. Native American's simply don't have those alternatives, or very few anyway. Secondly, I'm not saying people are going to stop committing suicide in that community just because racist mascots are disbanded, I'm just saying that by removing these false and negative depictions of their culture we can create alternative, and more positive forms than we have now...which could then help change the culture.
Anyway, you're argument style is always the same, you see something you disagree with then simplify and stupidify the argument b/c you don't like it. In addition to just being wrong, you also frustrate people like me who actually take time and put thought into their posts. You aren't open to alternative views, and just cause fights. Conversely, I just had a great PM/Email convo with chopitdown, b/c even though he disagrees with me, and probably will continue to, at least is taking the time to read some of the evidence I've used to shape my opinion on Native American Mascots...to me that's respectable, and respectful disagreement - which is the aim of this board.
we arent talking about the redskins. like I said, I'm no fan of that name.
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we are takling about the illini. which in no way is offensive unlike your cute jew example.
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It is any people who are depicted as stereo-types, here... not just the name. The 'Dodgers' is just a name, just like the 'Illini'... yeah, nothing offensive with either. It's the mascot the Illini use... the Indian... that is the center of this. Just as if the Dodgers picked a Jew or a black or Hispanic as their mascot and had them run through stero-typical routines.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
So if I had a team called the Ayn Rand's, and I had Ayn Rand toilet paper where I wiped shit on her face you'd be cool with that? Actually you probably wouldn't have a problem with it b/c there are positive depictions of Ayn Rand in popular and general culture, so you had alternatives to go to. Native American's simply don't have those alternatives, or very few anyway. Secondly, I'm not saying people are going to stop committing suicide in that community just because racist mascots are disbanded, I'm just saying that by removing these false and negative depictions of their culture we can create alternative, and more positive forms than we have now...which could then help change the culture.
Anyway, you're argument style is always the same, you see something you disagree with then simplify and stupidify the argument b/c you don't like it. In addition to just being wrong, you also frustrate people like me who actually take time and put thought into their posts. You aren't open to alternative views, and just cause fights. Conversely, I just had a great PM/Email convo with chopitdown, b/c even though he disagrees with me, and probably will continue to, at least is taking the time to read some of the evidence I've used to shape my opinion on Native American Mascots...to me that's respectable, and respectful disagreement - which is the aim of this board.
very well said ryan 198. some people see the issue as something small or petty, but they fail to realize that it is something that is part of a greater wrong. they fail to recognize that is a small step in the right direction toward equality and respect.
very well said ryan 198. some people see the issue as something small or petty, but they fail to realize that it is something that is part of a greater wrong. they fail to recognize that is a small step in the right direction toward equality and respect.
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Stanford University used to be called the Stanford Indians... Jim Plunkett graduated as an Indian, but by the time John Elway graduated, they were the Cardinal... not the Cardinal bird or the Catholic Cardinals... the color Cardinal. They didn't want to offend the Catholics or the birds.
Their mascot... the Stanford Tree. The one and only true mascot that should be in existance. http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2001/0314/photo/s_cardtree_i.jpg
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Stanford University used to be called the Stanford Indians... Jim Plunkett graduated as an Indian, but by the time John Elway graduated, they were the Cardinal... not the Cardinal bird or the Catholic Cardinals... the color Cardinal. They didn't want to offend the Catholics or the birds.
Their mascot... the Stanford Tree. The one and only true mascot that should be in existance. http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2001/0314/photo/s_cardtree_i.jpg
PETT (People for the Ethical Treatment of Trees) is going to be pissed.
This is gross exploitation.
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I'm glad it finally worked out for you Ryan. Mascots absolutely do not have any impact on my own cultural understanding but I can see how this is a large issue for many people.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
Chief Illiniwek danced his last racist dance. Could it be that Illinois realized it was acting in a ridiculous manner by allowing an offensive mascot to survive for 81 years, or was it the threat of NCAA sanctions that have ended this minstrel act performed in red-face? Either way it's a step in the right direction, and hopefully others will follow suit.
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Stanford University used to be called the Stanford Indians... Jim Plunkett graduated as an Indian, but by the time John Elway graduated, they were the Cardinal... not the Cardinal bird or the Catholic Cardinals... the color Cardinal. They didn't want to offend the Catholics or the birds.
Their mascot... the Stanford Tree. The one and only true mascot that should be in existance. http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2001/0314/photo/s_cardtree_i.jpg
n February 2006, then-Tree **** ******* was suspended until the end of her term as the Tree after her breathalyzer blood-alcohol level was measured at 0.157 (almost twice the legal driving limit in California) during a men's basketball game between Stanford and Cal. UC Berkeley police observed her drinking from a flask during the game and cited her for public drunkenness
the tree is also a lush evidently.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
n February 2006, then-Tree **** ******* was suspended until the end of her term as the Tree after her breathalyzer blood-alcohol level was measured at 0.157 (almost twice the legal driving limit in California) during a men's basketball game between Stanford and Cal. UC Berkeley police observed her drinking from a flask during the game and cited her for public drunkenness
the tree is also a lush evidently.
That is classic. Maybe it was just sap?
I also enjoy when the two mascots go toe to toe over the fact that they couldn't make the cheerleader squad and get their agression out on each other.
n February 2006, then-Tree **** ******* was suspended until the end of her term as the Tree after her breathalyzer blood-alcohol level was measured at 0.157 (almost twice the legal driving limit in California) during a men's basketball game between Stanford and Cal. UC Berkeley police observed her drinking from a flask during the game and cited her for public drunkenness
the tree is also a lush evidently.
That is funny...as long as she wasn't driving. From what I am gathering she was caught by rival Cal doing this during the game? My only question is, why didn't she hide the flask in her leaves?
jlew what sort of information are you bringing to the table that forms your opinion? I'm basing mine on several years of research conducted by multiple academics, and lawmembers, who have tracked the e/affects of native american mascots. I can link you to or direct you to several different peer reviewed articles which explicitly outline the negatives of native american masconts. Failing that, several times, I have suggested watching the film Act of Honor or Exploitation, which breaks down the falsity of the Chief Illiniwek mascot, as well as, depicts what it is like for a Native American to confront those who celebrate the mascot specifically at UofI. Somehow, however, I am extremely uniformed and have an opinion that holds no water. Given that statement I would like to see information that you have gathered that has not been created by the University of Illinois (which is NOT peer reviewed), or its fan constituency.
jlew what sort of information are you bringing to the table that forms your opinion? I'm basing mine on several years of research conducted by multiple academics, and lawmembers, who have tracked the e/affects of native american mascots. I can link you to or direct you to several different peer reviewed articles which explicitly outline the negatives of native american masconts. Failing that, several times, I have suggested watching the film Act of Honor or Exploitation, which breaks down the falsity of the Chief Illiniwek mascot, as well as, depicts what it is like for a Native American to confront those who celebrate the mascot specifically at UofI. Somehow, however, I am extremely uniformed and have an opinion that holds no water. Given that statement I would like to see information that you have gathered that has not been created by the University of Illinois (which is NOT peer reviewed), or its fan constituency.
Comments
thats twice. how long have you been a cheerleader? feel free to add to the discussion at any time.
Not really, no. I think it's silly and ridiculous. But "wrong"??? Maybe that word is a bit too strong for me and carries different connotations than it does for you.
If you think getting rid of Chief Illiniwek is going to "change the culture" or pull anyone off the noose, I'm not sure we can have anything approaching a reasonable discussion.
And the rest of us could say that we see nothing wrong with it while others complain.
read the thread...and the other one i cited.
It's the same thing. If only the Jews complained... so what, why listen to them? Native Americans have been complaining about the Redskins (who represent the Nation's Capitol)... and people claim heritage for the team, disregarding heritage for a people.
If non-Jews complained... well, they're just bleeding heart Political Correctness nuts and who cares what they think... they get offended by everything.
Hail, Hail!!!
we arent talking about the redskins. like I said, I'm no fan of that name.
...
we are takling about the illini. which in no way is offensive unlike your cute jew example.
Anyway, you're argument style is always the same, you see something you disagree with then simplify and stupidify the argument b/c you don't like it. In addition to just being wrong, you also frustrate people like me who actually take time and put thought into their posts. You aren't open to alternative views, and just cause fights. Conversely, I just had a great PM/Email convo with chopitdown, b/c even though he disagrees with me, and probably will continue to, at least is taking the time to read some of the evidence I've used to shape my opinion on Native American Mascots...to me that's respectable, and respectful disagreement - which is the aim of this board.
It is any people who are depicted as stereo-types, here... not just the name. The 'Dodgers' is just a name, just like the 'Illini'... yeah, nothing offensive with either. It's the mascot the Illini use... the Indian... that is the center of this. Just as if the Dodgers picked a Jew or a black or Hispanic as their mascot and had them run through stero-typical routines.
Hail, Hail!!!
very well said ryan 198. some people see the issue as something small or petty, but they fail to realize that it is something that is part of a greater wrong. they fail to recognize that is a small step in the right direction toward equality and respect.
Stanford University used to be called the Stanford Indians... Jim Plunkett graduated as an Indian, but by the time John Elway graduated, they were the Cardinal... not the Cardinal bird or the Catholic Cardinals... the color Cardinal. They didn't want to offend the Catholics or the birds.
Their mascot... the Stanford Tree. The one and only true mascot that should be in existance.
http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2001/0314/photo/s_cardtree_i.jpg
Hail, Hail!!!
That may offend Rastas.
PETT (People for the Ethical Treatment of Trees) is going to be pissed.
This is gross exploitation.
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I'm glad it finally worked out for you Ryan. Mascots absolutely do not have any impact on my own cultural understanding but I can see how this is a large issue for many people.
He DOES exhibit disturbing behavior for a tree.
http://cache.deadspin.com/sports/tree.jpg
http://www.strangesports.com/images/content/3321.jpg
Hail, Hail!!!
thanks for the info cosmo.
n February 2006, then-Tree **** ******* was suspended until the end of her term as the Tree after her breathalyzer blood-alcohol level was measured at 0.157 (almost twice the legal driving limit in California) during a men's basketball game between Stanford and Cal. UC Berkeley police observed her drinking from a flask during the game and cited her for public drunkenness
the tree is also a lush evidently.
i can assure you he is extremely well informed.
your comment holds as much water as his
That is classic. Maybe it was just sap?
I also enjoy when the two mascots go toe to toe over the fact that they couldn't make the cheerleader squad and get their agression out on each other.
tell him why then
you certainly are quite a little gnat.
i had a nice PM conversation with ryan 198 and i can see now why he is so well informed, that's all.
it must've been that Canadian sap...the american stuff can't do that to ya.
I wasnt talking about you.
thats nice.