North Korea and War

Byrnzie

chopitdown wrote:

Good grief, this guy is a nut job...is he just looking for a fight or is it just about respect?

Are you referring to Kim Jong-il or Bush here?

chopitdown

polaris wrote:

well ... your current administration backed out a nuclear non-proliferation treaty and are in the process of developing mini-nukes ... what do you expect the rest of the world to do?

i know the US has them and I know they are the only country to use them. I also think we won't use them again unless provoked by an equivocal force. Think about it, if we were so war hungy and interesetd in showing our nuke capabilities we could have gone to iraq, afghanistan and dropped some bombs and started this whole thing over. I agree with your earlier statement about him trying to show his people that he has strength and needs to be respected...but I hope he doesn't get too whiny and too aggressive trying to show his might.

polaris

dg1979us wrote:

THe axis of evil speech was stupid, I will certainly agree with you on that, as it did give Kim Jong Il the ability to say the US was a threat to them. But was he not seeking nukes during the Clinton administration? This isnt simply because of Bush. Anyone who has to tell his people he was born on the top of a mystical mountain, just so he can appear god like or like a mythical being, is a a little insecure in himself. And when you are insecure, and you run the type of government he runs, then he most certainly is concerned with a coup from his own military. By shaking his fist in the face of the US he probably feels he gets, and he probably does get more respect from his people, and is looked at as being a stronger leader than he really is.

from the accounts i've heard (ex s. korean pm, previous chinese diplomats) - kim jong il is a very smart person who is quick to make decisions ... i won't disagree with your assessment of him but at the end of the day - north korea had inspectors and were part of a non-proliferation agreement with china, japan and s. korea ... but pulled out after bush's rhetoric and actions ...

chopitdown

Byrnzie wrote:

Are you referring to Kim Jong-il or Bush here?

that's right, i forgot there were people on here who think that Bush is the only dipshit in the world. I was referring to Kim Jong-il.

polaris

chopitdown wrote:

i know the US has them and I know they are the only country to use them. I also think we won't use them again unless provoked by an equivocal force. Think about it, if we were so war hungy and interesetd in showing our nuke capabilities we could have gone to iraq, afghanistan and dropped some bombs and started this whole thing over. I agree with your earlier statement about him trying to show his people that he has strength and needs to be respected...but I hope he doesn't get too whiny and too aggressive trying to show his might.

but do you think the US would have gone into either country if they had nukes? ... why is pakistan a "friend" of the US? ...

obviously no one wants them to be used but maybe the US could stop dropping DU laced munitions - that would also be a start ...

polaris

jlew24asu wrote:

because the kim jong il is a fucking nut job. he is the worst dictator the world has ever seen.

here is a lil look into the way he treats his people.

Human rights
Main article: Human rights in North Korea

Amnesty International and other human rights organizations accuse North Korea of having one of the worst human rights records of any nation, severely restricting most freedoms, including freedom of speech and freedom of movement, both inside the country and abroad.

North Korean exiles have testified as to the existence of detention camps with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates, and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder and forced labour. [18] [19] Japanese television aired what it said was footage of a prison camp [20]. In some of the camps, US officials and former inmates say the annual mortality rate approaches 20% to 25% [21]. An estimated two million civilians have been killed by the government[7] A former prison guard and army intelligence officer said that in one camp, chemical weapons were tested on prisoners in a gas chamber [22]. According to a former prisoner, pregnant women inside the camps are often forced to have abortions or the newborn child is killed [23]. A recent TIME magazine article documents a young woman's forced abortion in a prison camp and subsequent escape from North Korea. The government of North Korea refuses to admit independent human rights observers to the state.

The government of North Korea has also been implicated in terrorist attacks in South Korea [24] (Wahn Kihl 1983: 106) as well as assassinations of dissidents in nearby states [25]

well ... just as long as you look at the rest of amnesty int'l write ups on other countries and hold it to the same esteem ... it's easy to paste this ... but what about other countries?

Given to...

polaris wrote:

from the accounts i've heard (ex s. korean pm, previous chinese diplomats) - kim jong il is a very smart person who is quick to make decisions ... i won't disagree with your assessment of him but at the end of the day - north korea had inspectors and were part of a non-proliferation agreement with china, japan and s. korea ... but pulled out after bush's rhetoric and actions ...

What is the response from NK's closest neighbors. They are the ones who must truly walk on the razors edge when condemning the case.

chopitdown

polaris wrote:

but do you think the US would have gone into either country if they had nukes? ... why is pakistan a "friend" of the US? ...

obviously no one wants them to be used but maybe the US could stop dropping DU laced munitions - that would also be a start ...

don't know if they would have or not...i agree that nukes are great deterrants but in the hands of some they don't wish to use them as deterrants rather they want to further a cause. And I'm not sure where I put N Korea.

polaris

jaamfaan wrote:

What is the response from NK's closest neighbors. They are the ones who must truly walk on the razors edge when condemning the case.

they are joining the arms race of course ... guess who's gonna be happy about that?

polaris

chopitdown wrote:

don't know if they would have or not...i agree that nukes are great deterrants but in the hands of some they don't wish to use them as deterrants rather they want to further a cause. And I'm not sure where I put N Korea.

everyone has a cause ... not too many are virtuous or moral in nature ...

truroute

Byrnzie wrote:

Are you referring to Kim Jong-il or Bush here?

Huh, good one.

As I was saying, most peoples opinions on here are only created out of spite for all thing US.

truroute

polaris wrote:

but do you think the US would have gone into either country if they had nukes? ... why is pakistan a "friend" of the US? ...

obviously no one wants them to be used but maybe the US could stop dropping DU laced munitions - that would also be a start ...

comon man,

We dont need a shameless plug for another beat-up thread topic.

redrock

truroute wrote:

As I was saying, most peoples opinions on here are only created out of spite for all thing US.

Because we all wish we could be more like the US...

polaris

truroute wrote:

comon man,

We dont need a shameless plug for another beat-up thread topic.

well ... you simplify everyone's responses by saying that all we care about is bashing the US ... if that isn't beat up or tired ... i dunno what is ...

rebornFixer

truroute wrote:

How are we threatening them? Unless I've missed something, the US hasent provoked them at all, especially by nukes. Its been assured many times that an attack by US will not happen if unprovoked. So please enlighten me as to whene NK has been "threatened by a nuclear power."


On anohter note. do the ppl here honestly beleive its OK for NK to have nukes? Or is it only out of spite for all things America that ppl say "they're defending themselves."

I've said it before, but the whole "US has them, so why not NK" does not hold A SINGLE shred of logic.

In fact, the U.S. has said on numerous occasions that a diplomatic solution will always be the first approach tried with North Korea.
I agree .. . No logic whatsoever. Its just anti-American rhetoric. Even someone as backward and dangerous as Kim will garner sympathy from these folks.

truroute

redrock wrote:

Because we all wish we could be more like the US...

Yup, and I insinuated or hinted at this where?

Byrnzie

truroute wrote:

Huh, good one.

As I was saying, most peoples opinions on here are only created out of spite for all thing US.

All things U.S? Or the U.S government? Or do you believe that the U.S and the Bush Administration are the same thing?

lgt

chopitdown wrote:

Again, I didn't say he shouldn't WORRY, but the fact that he'd consider any sanction an ACT OF WAR is lunacy.

I don't want pakistan or israel to have one. I don't want N Korea to have one b/c of the leader who is a whack job and considers economic sanctions an act of war. And he's not exactly someone the international community can work with. At least Pakistan and Israel are somewhat receptive to the international community.

Pakistan *has* nuclear capability, btw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons

truroute

polaris wrote:

well ... you simplify everyone's responses by saying that all we care about is bashing the US ... if that isn't beat up or tired ... i dunno what is ...

When do people stop looking at the US as the cause for all things fucked up on this planet, and start actually looking at "a" problem.

ie: demented fuckwad(s) claiming to have nukes and have no beef in using them at the drop of a hat.

When asked about this, the only response involves the US. So of course Im going to simplify your and everyone else's response because it really does not note anything abouy THE problem, but only blames the US.

polaris

reborncareerist wrote:

In fact, the U.S. has said on numerous occasions that a diplomatic solution will always be the first approach tried with North Korea.
I agree .. . No logic whatsoever. Its just anti-American rhetoric. Even someone as backward and dangerous as Kim will garner sympathy from these folks.

yeah ... we just hate america therefore we have no logic ... :rolleyes: ... one could discuss the topic or one could dismiss with this kind of reasoning ...