Socialized Healthcare?

prism

lazymoon13 wrote:

so people can try and find work at an employer who offers health coverage? cool

and with fewer employers offering health coverage would that make it less likey that they will find it.

and none of it even accounts for those uninsured that are self-employed and can not get approved for or afford to buy their own health insurance

_

lazymoon13 wrote:

he admitted to not paying taxes.

That doesn't mean we know his circumstances. Life is complex. It's not divided into black and white - who pays taxes and who doesn't.

He could be quadriplegic now for all we know. He could be staying home to take care of his sick mother or children - or any number of things.

_

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

So...as stated...You DO come from privilege!

Anyone who pays for an entire life of private school in a country where they don't need to...and who intentionally bypasses the Stafford Loans...MUST come from a lot more of a privileged background than you believe you do.

So THAT explains your egocentric attitude.

It's yours...so you might as well own it!

Maybe he's got such an attitude because he feels guilty about his own privilege and doesn't know how to own/deal with it. It's a theory anyway... It's hard to tell when he refuses to let us know anything about him - or whether he even is a him.

_

lazymoon13 wrote:

I can make up numbers and %'s too.

scb wrote:

49% of pregnancies in the US are unintended.

Finer LB, Henshaw SK. Disparities in rates of unintended pregnancy in the United States, 1994 and 2001. Perspect Sex Reprod Health. 2006;38:90-96.

scb wrote:

One of the primary reasons the US has one of the highest (most shameful) rates of unintended pregnancies in the developed world is because of our lack of universal health care

Espey E, Cosgrove E, Ogburn T. Family planning American style: why it's so hard to control birth in the US. Obstet Gynecol Clin North Am. 2007;34:1-17, vii.

scb wrote:

while unintended pregnancy was decreasing by 20% among wealthier women, it was increasing by 29% among poorer women.

Finer LB, Henshaw SK. Disparities in rates of unintended pregnancy in the United States, 1994 and 2001. Perspect Sex Reprod Health. 2006;38:90-96.

scb wrote:

pills are $30/month

Stevens A. Sticker Shock. Ms. 2007;17:12-13.

scb wrote:

EC is $40 a pop

Walgreens. (505) 881-5210

scb wrote:

IUDs are $400

(Up to $800)

Planned Parenthood. (505) 265-3722

scb wrote:

89% of women who are at risk for unintended pregnancy use birth control.

Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health, Guttmacher Institute. An Overview of Abortion in the United States. January 2008. http://www.guttmacher.org/presentations/ab_slides.html.

scb wrote:

BIRTH CONTROL FAILS. Even tubal ligations and vasectomies fail.

http://www.reproductiveaccess.org/contraception/contra_info.htm

Baill IC, Cullins VE, Pati S. Counseling issues in tubal sterilization. Am Fam Physician. 2003;67:1287-94,1301-2.

Jamieson DJ, Costello C, Trussell J, Hillis SD, Marchbanks PA, Peterson HB. The risk of pregnancy after vasectomy. Obstet Gynecol. 2004;103:848-50.

potluck

lazymoon13 wrote:

see, my only concern about UHC is that the quality of care will fall. thats makes me passionate about fellow humans right? I support a system somewhere inbetween UHC and the current system. what I do NOT want is the dumbfuck government to have complete control of the system. and sadly, people are simply lazy. take commy for example, he doesnt pay taxes, yet demands he should get free healthcare. WHY?

socialized anything breeds lazyness. Work force motivation lacks in countries with social governments. UHC is the beginning of a long slippery sloap.

potluck

hello?

Kann

potluck wrote:

socialized anything breeds lazyness. Work force motivation lacks in countries with social governments. UHC is the beginning of a long slippery sloap.

would you mind explaining your thought? And do add examples please.

farfromglorified

scb wrote:

But isn't this what makes us a society? You know, the social contract and all that good stuff.

What makes us a society is a willingness to work together to tackle common challenges. Absent that willingness, you do not have a "society", per se, you have slave quarters.

My value: Don't kill people.

Good value.

Government: We'll use force to keep you from killing people.

Potentially dangerous ideology.

You can't say everyone shares this value, and yet they are being forced to live by it. That's just one example, of course.

Everyone does not share that value -- you're very correct. Yet they're not being "forced to live by it". There is simply a law against killing people. You're still free to kill anyone you'd like. A person who is willing to kill someone cannot complain about enforcement of a law against their actions -- they've demostrated by their actions that they have no respect for human life or rights. Enforcing a law against murder is not the initiation of force. It is a response to force.

Many other laws, however, do not work this way. To forcefully detain someone because you think they might harm someone else is an intitiation of force, not a response to force. Forcing someone to pay for your healthcare is an initiation of force, not a response to it.

Wise societies eschew force, as opposed to embracing it.

RockinInCanada

potluck wrote:

socialized anything breeds lazyness. Work force motivation lacks in countries with social governments. UHC is the beginning of a long slippery sloap.

Bullshit.....provide me with something that dictates how a democratic country with UHC (Canada, many European countries) breeds laziness....this is a fear mongering statement along the lines of the "government will tell you who you can/cannot see"....this comment really pisses me of because you have no idea what you are talking about....lets see proof to this comment....

_

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Bullshit.....provide me with something that dictates how a democratic country with UHC (Canada, many European countries) breeds laziness....this is a fear mongering statement along the lines of the "government will tell you who you can/cannot see"....this comment really pisses me of because you have no idea what you are talking about....lets see proof to this comment....

Amen.

potluck

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Bullshit.....provide me with something that dictates how a democratic country with UHC (Canada, many European countries) breeds laziness....this is a fear mongering statement along the lines of the "government will tell you who you can/cannot see"....this comment really pisses me of because you have no idea what you are talking about....lets see proof to this comment....

european states have higher education rates than the United States, yet there unemployment rates are higher than ours. Places like India have just as high of education rates as Europe but with capitalism have been able to provide themselves with a much more efficient dollar and work force. I personally chalk it up to the power of competition/ aka not socialism. when u give up one liberty you run the risk of giving up all freedoms. I personally dont want the gov to have anything to do with my life besides building my roads and schools. I can police myself and provide for my own health. oh yeah.... and you, yeah....... you liberal, leave me and my country alone!

_

potluck wrote:

I can... provide for my own health.

Seriously? Are you a doctor?

potluck wrote:

oh yeah.... and you, yeah....... you liberal, leave me and my country alone!

Whose country? I believe the country belongs just as much to the liberals as to the conservatives, no?

mammasan

potluck wrote:

socialized anything breeds lazyness. Work force motivation lacks in countries with social governments. UHC is the beginning of a long slippery sloap.

I'm not a huge fan of socialized healthcare, but your comment is simply ridiculous. You have no proof to back up that statement.

Commy

mammasan wrote:

I'm not a huge fan of socialized healthcare, but your comment is simply ridiculous. You have no proof to back up that statement.

In fact the opposite is true. In a way. The motivation in a socialist society is actually very high, in the labor force, in theory, as the workers tend to see the immediate results of their labor, in the local community. The motivation changes, from that of the individual to that of the community, as the labor and resources actually benefit the local communities as opposed to some far away minority.

Hoon

You know potlucks thread got me to thinking. Perhaps "Socilized Healthcare" is a horrible idea. So I did some research and found a solution!

Single Payer, Not For Profit, Universal Health Care!

It can be found in HR676

Here is an explanation of the Health Insurance problem and how it will be fixed with Health Care: Universal Health Care

Abookamongstthemany

Hoon wrote:

You know potlucks thread got me to thinking. Perhaps "Socilized Healthcare" is a horrible idea. So I did some research and found a solution!

Single Payer, Not For Profit, Universal Health Care!

It can be found in HR676

Here is an explanation of the Health Insurance problem and how it will be fixed with Health Care: Universal Health Care

Hmmmm

You just might be on to something!

RockinInCanada

potluck wrote:

european states have higher education rates than the United States, yet there unemployment rates are higher than ours. Places like India have just as high of education rates as Europe but with capitalism have been able to provide themselves with a much more efficient dollar and work force. I personally chalk it up to the power of competition/ aka not socialism. when u give up one liberty you run the risk of giving up all freedoms. I personally dont want the gov to have anything to do with my life besides building my roads and schools. I can police myself and provide for my own health. oh yeah.... and you, yeah....... you liberal, leave me and my country alone!

Regardless of you being sarcastic or not where did I ever say I was "liberal"...did we talk somewhere...fucking sick of the generalizations people make based on ONE opinion...for matter of fact I have heavily left leaning in regards to social issues....however I am more right/moderate when it comes to fiscal issues....

One should know that the majority of Conservatives in Canada support UHC...has nothing to do with being Liberal....it is helping your fellow man...

RockinInCanada

potluck wrote:

european states have higher education rates than the United States, yet there unemployment rates are higher than ours. Places like India have just as high of education rates as Europe but with capitalism have been able to provide themselves with a much more efficient dollar and work force. I personally chalk it up to the power of competition/ aka not socialism. when u give up one liberty you run the risk of giving up all freedoms. I personally dont want the gov to have anything to do with my life besides building my roads and schools. I can police myself and provide for my own health. oh yeah.... and you, yeah....... you liberal, leave me and my country alone!

Okay how is UHC assocaited with giving up freedom?

I can see any doctor I choose no matter where they are.

What is the average income tax rate in States....I am curious about something..and would appreciate if I could get a number from someone....also the average health insurance costs.

Thanks if anyone can provide me with this.

potluck

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Okay how is UHC assocaited with giving up freedom?

I can see any doctor I choose no matter where they are.

What is the average income tax rate in States....I am curious about something..and would appreciate if I could get a number from someone....also the average health insurance costs.

Thanks if anyone can provide me with this.

i dont pay state income tax.


also, im just saying UHC inhibits the free market. you cant say it doesnt. canada's model prohibits insurance companies....giving up freedom. If i were canadian i wouldnt be free to conduct business as i pleased. it's as simple as that.

dmitry

Commy wrote:

In fact the opposite is true. In a way. The motivation in a socialist society is actually very high, in the labor force, in theory, as the workers tend to see the immediate results of their labor, in the local community. The motivation changes, from that of the individual to that of the community, as the labor and resources actually benefit the local communities as opposed to some far away minority.

"No fire and no water" apparently led to motivation problems in the USSR.

PBS's "Commanding Heights" is an interesting series:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/lo/story/ch_menu_02.html

Skip to about 6:00 of the chapter 3 video for the "no fire and no water" comment.