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I wonder if Paul suffers the same setback as Dean did the last presidential. Carried forward by massive enthusiastic internet-backing, and not making it through the primaries when push comes to shove.
Just a thought.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I wonder if Paul suffers the same setback as Dean did the last presidential. Carried forward by massive enthusiastic internet-backing, and not making it through the primaries when push comes to shove.
Just a thought.
Peace
Dan
except this time around paul doesnt promote hate for the opposition. dean could be the biggest asshole in politics.
I wonder if Paul suffers the same setback as Dean did the last presidential. Carried forward by massive enthusiastic internet-backing, and not making it through the primaries when push comes to shove.
Just a thought.
Peace
Dan
The difference is that Dean had enough voter support to be statistically significant in the early states.
I wonder if Paul suffers the same setback as Dean did the last presidential. Carried forward by massive enthusiastic internet-backing, and not making it through the primaries when push comes to shove.
Just a thought.
Peace
Dan
Paul really isn't in the same position as Dean was in 04. He's not the front-runner anywhere and he's still considered a fringe candidate as opposed to a surpising contender. Dean was, for a while, the presumptive candidate, making his collapse appear much more dramatic than it actually was. When Ron Paul exits this race or simply fails to carry a significant number of states, no one will be surprised.
It is entirely possible that Paul really shocks some people and wins New Hampshire, but I don't see him getting very far beyond that. His candidacy simply represents an opportunity for a lot of divergent fringe groups on the right to come together, for a brief moment, under the same flag.
The nice thing about the Paul campaign is that it's already a win. Ron Paul has gotten a message out there that hasn't been heard on this kind of stage in nearly a generation. It's been awesome to see so many kids in their early twenties thinking and talking about issues that were strangely taboo when I was that age. Young people questioning both core neo-liberal and neo-conservative philosophies are exactly what this country needs right now. The next 10 years of American politics are going to be just more of the same, but the seeds being planted now will, I hope, bloom just in time.
Paul really isn't in the same position as Dean was in 04. He's not the front-runner anywhere and he's still considered a fringe candidate as opposed to a surpising contender. Dean was, for a while, the presumptive candidate, making his collapse appear much more dramatic than it actually was. When Ron Paul exits this race or simply fails to carry a significant number of states, no one will be surprised.
It is entirely possible that Paul really shocks some people and wins New Hampshire, but I don't see him getting very far beyond that. His candidacy simply represents an opportunity for a lot of divergent fringe groups on the right to come together, for a brief moment, under the same flag.
The nice thing about the Paul campaign is that it's already a win. Ron Paul has gotten a message out there that hasn't been heard on this kind of stage in nearly a generation. It's been awesome to see so many kids in their early twenties thinking and talking about issues that were strangely taboo when I was that age. Young people questioning both core neo-liberal and neo-conservative philosophies are exactly what this country needs right now. The next 10 years of American politics are going to be just more of the same, but the seeds being planted now will, I hope, bloom just in time.
You know I have never seen it in that light and it is a great point. Even if Paul fails to win the nomination it is still a win for the reasons you mentioned. Let's just hope that after Paul bows out that his message will not bow out with him and that the people who supported him and his ideals continue the fight.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
You know I have never seen it in that light and it is a great point. Even if Paul fails to win the nomination it is still a win for the reasons you mentioned. Let's just hope that after Paul bows out that his message will not bow out with him and that the people who supported him and his ideals continue the fight.
That's the interesting question -- does the message outlive the man? Part of me is pessimistic because a lot of Ron Paul's supporters are just hardline anti-statists, conspiracy theorists and anti-globalists who are cherry-picking from the philosophy and don't really understand or care about the economic and moral case Ron is making. So the question becomes, once this run is over, what happens to these people? Do they return to their basements, bunkers, and boardrooms, fixating on their niche issues, never to be heard from politically again? Or does a influential new wing of the Republican party (or a third party) start to take shape out of all this? When I think about the cherry-pickers, I tend to foresee the former. But when I see 20 year old kids actually thinking about the economic consequences and moral equivocations of the war machine and the welfare state, I tend to foresee the latter.
The nice thing about this run is that there's no natural haven for a lot of Ron's supporters outside the rather ridiculous Libertarian Party. If we look at Howard Dean's case, for instance, we see that a lot of his supporters simply had a natural and readily available alternative after Dean faded -- that alternative being just some other Democrat. But most of Paul's supporters, myself included, are certainly not going to vote for Giuliani or Thompson or Romney next November, nor are we going to align ourselves with the inept Libertarians. So, hopefully, we'll end up with a motivated and thinking base of individuals who are very hungry for change in this nation and who are not going to quickly retreat to other disparate individuals or parties who offer little change. Time will tell, I suppose. But, for now, I'll get a lot of satisfaction from the 19 year old hipster kid I met last night who denounced fiat currency and challenged the sacred cow of "public welfare" when, five years ago, he would have been demanding Universal Health Care and nation building. Small stuff, but cool stuff.
That's the interesting question -- does the message outlive the man? Part of me is pessimistic because a lot of Ron Paul's supporters are just hardline anti-statists, conspiracy theorists and anti-globalists who are cherry-picking from the philosophy and don't really understand or care about the economic and moral case Ron is making. So the question becomes, once this run is over, what happens to these people? Do they return to their basements, bunkers, and boardrooms, fixating on their niche issues, never to be heard from politically again? Or does a influential new wing of the Republican party (or a third party) start to take shape out of all this? When I think about the cherry-pickers, I tend to foresee the former. But when I see 20 year old kids actually thinking about the economic consequences and moral equivocations of the war machine and the welfare state, I tend to foresee the latter.
The nice thing about this run is that there's no natural haven for a lot of Ron's supporters outside the rather ridiculous Libertarian Party. If we look at Howard Dean's case, for instance, we see that a lot of his supporters simply had a natural and readily available alternative after Dean faded -- that alternative being just some other Democrat. But most of Paul's supporters, myself included, are certainly not going to vote for Giuliani or Thompson or Romney next November, nor are we going to align ourselves with the inept Libertarians. So, hopefully, we'll end up with a motivated and thinking base of individuals who are very hungry for change in this nation and who are not going to quickly retreat to other disparate individuals or parties who offer little change. Time will tell, I suppose. But, for now, I'll get a lot of satisfaction from the 19 year old hipster kid I met last night who denounced fiat currency and challenged the sacred cow of "public welfare" when, five years ago, he would have been demanding Universal Health Care and nation building. Small stuff, but cool stuff.
Well let's hope that the majority of Paul's supporters are not the niche thinkers but people who actually believe in his message and ideology. This way the message will definitely outlive the man. Also that is pretty impressive for a 19 year old. When I was 19 I would have never had such a profound view.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Part of me is pessimistic because a lot of Ron Paul's supporters are just hardline anti-statists, conspiracy theorists and anti-globalists who are cherry-picking from the philosophy and don't really understand or care about the economic and moral case Ron is making.
Hey, you and I agree on something. I esp agree with the 'cherry-picking from the philosophy' part.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
It sometimes seems as if someone is playing a cruel practical joke on Ron Paul. He goes to a college and delivers the same speech he's given for the past 30 years of his political career, the one espousing the Austrian school of economics. Only now the audience is packed with hundreds of kids in RON PAUL REVOLUTION T-shirts who go nuts - giving standing ovations when he drones on about getting rid of the Federal Reserve and returning to the gold standard. After a speech at Iowa State last month, when nearly half the crowd had to stand because there were only 400 seats, a hipster-looking student worked his way through the half-hour-long line to shake Paul's hand. This was surely it - the moment when the straight faces would break and Paul would be wedgied up the flagpole. "When you see Bernanke," the kid said, "will you tell him to stop cutting rates when gold hits 1,000?"
Politics might be rock 'n' roll for nerds, but the nerds aren't supposed to be quite this nerdy. The leader of the disaffected in next year's presidential election - the Howard Dean, the Ross Perot, the Pat Buchanan - is a kindly great-grandfather and obstetrician whose passion is monetary policy. Paul, a 72-year-old hard-core libertarian Republican Congressman who is against foreign intervention, subsidies and the federal income tax, is not only drawing impressive crowds (more than 2,000 at a post-debate rally at the University of Michigan last month) but also raising tons of cash. In the third quarter of 2007, Paul took in $5.3 million (just slightly less than G.O.P. rival John McCain), mostly in small, individual donations. On Oct. 22, he aired his first TV ads, $1.1 million worth in New Hampshire.
The numbers are even more impressive considering that as of early October, 72% of G.O.P. voters told Gallup pollsters they didn't know enough about Paul to form an opinion. He has been able to attract followers in the debates, where he's presented a clear, simple philosophy of personal freedom and responsibility. He bluntly refers to the U.S. as an empire. And the nerdiness lends Paul's simple message an aura of credibility, especially on a stage with more polished politicians and their nuanced positions. "He's about something that American nerd culture can get on board with: really knowing one subject and going all out on it," says Ben Darrington, a Ron Paul supporter at Yale. "For some people, it's Star Wars. For some people, it's Japanese cartoons. For Ron Paul, it's free-market commodity money."
The libertarian's traction is most apparent on the Internet, where his presence far outstrips that of any candidate from either party. His name is the most searched, his YouTube videos the most watched, his campaign the topic of songs by at least 14 bands. "The last thing I would listen to is rap," Paul says. "But there's something going on when there's a rap song about the Fed." On Tuesday, both Paul and Tom Cruise were guests on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno. The actor went to Paul's dressing room to thank him for his work on a bill fighting the forced mental screening of grade-school kids. "Go. Go. Go. Go hard," Cruise said. Paul turned to an aide and asked, "What movies has he been in?"
Paul's fans - and there were more than 100 of them in Leno's audience, many of whom had flown in from out of town - are entranced by a man who responds to surprising information with "Wowee" and a jaw-dropped smile not often seen apart from 5-year-old boys and Muppets. "It's the message. Ron isn't that exciting as himself," says Andre Marrou, who was Paul's running mate when he ran as a Libertarian in 1988. "I saw him referred to in print as semi-eccentric. He's maybe 10% eccentric. It's his ideas that are eccentric. But it's basic Americanism." Paul is such a strict constructionist that he autographs pocket Constitutions more often than Tommy Lee signs breasts.
But Paul's popularity can't necessarily be explained by a previously undetected craving for gold-standard debates on college campuses. His message, even if packaged in obscure economic lectures, is that there is something very corrupt, very Halliburton-Blackwatery going on with our military-industrial complex, and that can attract some pretty weird followers. At the Iowa State event, a student stood outside in a tricornered hat and Revolutionary War–era suit, ringing a bell. Representative Tom Tancredo, another long-shot G.O.P. candidate, tells me that after a debate in New Hampshire, one of his staffers walked up to a guy in a shark costume and asked him if he was a Ron Paul supporter. "No. They're all nuts," replied the shark. "I'm just a guy in a shark suit." There is a subset of Paul supporters who believe 9/11 was an inside job by the U.S. government. And there are anarchists as well: They've picked Nov. 5, Guy Fawkes Day, for a fund-raising drive.
"His supporters are the equivalent of crabgrass," says G.O.P. consultant Frank Luntz. "It's not the grass you want, and it spreads faster than the real stuff. They just like him because he's the most anti-Establishment of all the candidates, the most likely to look at the camera during the debates and say, 'Hey, Washington, f--- you.'"
The one place Paul hasn't become a major player is where it counts: in the polls, where he hasn't broken above 5% and has yet to pass Mike Huckabee. Paul realizes he's not a favorite among the pro-war, pro-Bush Republicans. "A lot of times at my rally, I say, 'We're diverse. We even have some Republicans,'" he jokes. (His largest Meetup.com group gathers in liberal Austin, Texas; another sizable one is in San Francisco.) And he isn't sure where all this sudden support will lead.
Paul doesn't expect that he will win the nomination, and he has no interest in running as an independent again. But he also doesn't see himself endorsing one of the other Republicans in the general election. "Those people who support me wouldn't believe it," he says. "If I said, 'Giuliani's a great guy, and he'll reduce subsidies and bring the troops home'? I couldn't do that." Even nerd revolutions don't surrender.
It sometimes seems as if someone is playing a cruel practical joke on Ron Paul. He goes to a college and delivers the same speech he's given for the past 30 years of his political career, the one espousing the Austrian school of economics. Only now the audience is packed with hundreds of kids in RON PAUL REVOLUTION T-shirts who go nuts - giving standing ovations when he drones on about getting rid of the Federal Reserve and returning to the gold standard. After a speech at Iowa State last month, when nearly half the crowd had to stand because there were only 400 seats, a hipster-looking student worked his way through the half-hour-long line to shake Paul's hand. This was surely it - the moment when the straight faces would break and Paul would be wedgied up the flagpole. "When you see Bernanke," the kid said, "will you tell him to stop cutting rates when gold hits 1,000?"
Politics might be rock 'n' roll for nerds, but the nerds aren't supposed to be quite this nerdy. The leader of the disaffected in next year's presidential election - the Howard Dean, the Ross Perot, the Pat Buchanan - is a kindly great-grandfather and obstetrician whose passion is monetary policy. Paul, a 72-year-old hard-core libertarian Republican Congressman who is against foreign intervention, subsidies and the federal income tax, is not only drawing impressive crowds (more than 2,000 at a post-debate rally at the University of Michigan last month) but also raising tons of cash. In the third quarter of 2007, Paul took in $5.3 million (just slightly less than G.O.P. rival John McCain), mostly in small, individual donations. On Oct. 22, he aired his first TV ads, $1.1 million worth in New Hampshire.
The numbers are even more impressive considering that as of early October, 72% of G.O.P. voters told Gallup pollsters they didn't know enough about Paul to form an opinion. He has been able to attract followers in the debates, where he's presented a clear, simple philosophy of personal freedom and responsibility. He bluntly refers to the U.S. as an empire. And the nerdiness lends Paul's simple message an aura of credibility, especially on a stage with more polished politicians and their nuanced positions. "He's about something that American nerd culture can get on board with: really knowing one subject and going all out on it," says Ben Darrington, a Ron Paul supporter at Yale. "For some people, it's Star Wars. For some people, it's Japanese cartoons. For Ron Paul, it's free-market commodity money."
The libertarian's traction is most apparent on the Internet, where his presence far outstrips that of any candidate from either party. His name is the most searched, his YouTube videos the most watched, his campaign the topic of songs by at least 14 bands. "The last thing I would listen to is rap," Paul says. "But there's something going on when there's a rap song about the Fed." On Tuesday, both Paul and Tom Cruise were guests on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno. The actor went to Paul's dressing room to thank him for his work on a bill fighting the forced mental screening of grade-school kids. "Go. Go. Go. Go hard," Cruise said. Paul turned to an aide and asked, "What movies has he been in?"
Paul's fans - and there were more than 100 of them in Leno's audience, many of whom had flown in from out of town - are entranced by a man who responds to surprising information with "Wowee" and a jaw-dropped smile not often seen apart from 5-year-old boys and Muppets. "It's the message. Ron isn't that exciting as himself," says Andre Marrou, who was Paul's running mate when he ran as a Libertarian in 1988. "I saw him referred to in print as semi-eccentric. He's maybe 10% eccentric. It's his ideas that are eccentric. But it's basic Americanism." Paul is such a strict constructionist that he autographs pocket Constitutions more often than Tommy Lee signs breasts.
But Paul's popularity can't necessarily be explained by a previously undetected craving for gold-standard debates on college campuses. His message, even if packaged in obscure economic lectures, is that there is something very corrupt, very Halliburton-Blackwatery going on with our military-industrial complex, and that can attract some pretty weird followers. At the Iowa State event, a student stood outside in a tricornered hat and Revolutionary War–era suit, ringing a bell. Representative Tom Tancredo, another long-shot G.O.P. candidate, tells me that after a debate in New Hampshire, one of his staffers walked up to a guy in a shark costume and asked him if he was a Ron Paul supporter. "No. They're all nuts," replied the shark. "I'm just a guy in a shark suit." There is a subset of Paul supporters who believe 9/11 was an inside job by the U.S. government. And there are anarchists as well: They've picked Nov. 5, Guy Fawkes Day, for a fund-raising drive.
"His supporters are the equivalent of crabgrass," says G.O.P. consultant Frank Luntz. "It's not the grass you want, and it spreads faster than the real stuff. They just like him because he's the most anti-Establishment of all the candidates, the most likely to look at the camera during the debates and say, 'Hey, Washington, f--- you.'"
The one place Paul hasn't become a major player is where it counts: in the polls, where he hasn't broken above 5% and has yet to pass Mike Huckabee. Paul realizes he's not a favorite among the pro-war, pro-Bush Republicans. "A lot of times at my rally, I say, 'We're diverse. We even have some Republicans,'" he jokes. (His largest Meetup.com group gathers in liberal Austin, Texas; another sizable one is in San Francisco.) And he isn't sure where all this sudden support will lead.
Paul doesn't expect that he will win the nomination, and he has no interest in running as an independent again. But he also doesn't see himself endorsing one of the other Republicans in the general election. "Those people who support me wouldn't believe it," he says. "If I said, 'Giuliani's a great guy, and he'll reduce subsidies and bring the troops home'? I couldn't do that." Even nerd revolutions don't surrender.
Latest poll shows Ron at 5%. Certainly not overwhelming support, but a good jump. Plus, looks like Ron's got another $5mil headed into the bank (http://www.ronpaul2008.com). Good stuff.
I'm intrigued by Ron Paul and its a smart move for him to run as a Republican and not an independent—he's clearly the most libertarian candidate out there. I can respect his opinions on the Iraq war issue so long as he stays aggressive against terrorism and is in favor of a strong military in general. When it comes to terrorism these days it seems like the Republicans want to combat it stupidly and the Dems don't want to combat it at all.
I'd like him to be more Pro-Life but his idea of returning that jurisdiction to the states' is probably the most practical way to go at this point in time.
So this life is sacrifice...
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
I'm intrigued by Ron Paul and its a smart move for him to run as a Republican and not an independent—he's clearly the most libertarian candidate out there. I can respect his opinions on the Iraq war issue so long as he stays aggressive against terrorism and is in favor of a strong military in general. When it comes to terrorism these days it seems like the Republicans want to combat it stupidly and the Dems don't want to combat it at all.
I'd like him to be more Pro-Life but his idea of returning that jurisdiction to the states' is probably the most practical way to go at this point in time.
There's no such thing as a war on terrorism. That's modern-day speak for extinguish the savages for profit.
I'd like him to be more Pro-Life but his idea of returning that jurisdiction to the states' is probably the most practical way to go at this point in time.
If "practical" is part of the thought process here, then you've missed the whole message that IS ron paul.
Dr. Paul, the ob\gyn, is actualy very much personaly pro-life ... he thinks its a great harm to a living being ... HOWEVER ... Ron Paul is an honest CONSTITUTIONAL man, and his decision to turn abortion rights over to the state is not rooted in his personal world view... it's rooted in the forgoten constitution of our great land!
"Federal Law" is something foreign to the constitution outside of counterfeiting, treason, and crimes upon the high seas. Ron Paul seeks to get away from Federal rule at any turn he can shake it. Abortion is no exception.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
If "practical" is part of the thought process here, then you've missed the whole message that IS ron paul.
Dr. Paul, the ob\gyn, is actualy very much personaly pro-life ... he thinks its a great harm to a living being ... HOWEVER ... Ron Paul is an honest CONSTITUTIONAL man, and his decision to turn abortion rights over to the state is not rooted in his personal world view... it's rooted in the forgoten constitution of our great land!
"Federal Law" is something foreign to the constitution outside of counterfeiting, treason, and crimes upon the high seas. Ron Paul seeks to get away from Federal rule at any turn he can shake it. Abortion is no exception.
I think both you and Ron Paul need to shake yourself of the antiquity that is the United States Constitution.
He reveres it as a holy document. I have a problem with that. It was written in such a way that those who would interpret today are as varied and numerous in their interpretation of its words as there are lawyers in America.
The law of the land has nothing to do anymore with those words written 200 some years ago.
He reveres it as a holy document. I have a problem with that. It was written in such a way that those who would interpret today are as varied and numerous in their interpretation of its words as there are lawyers in America.
The law of the land has nothing to do anymore with those words written 200 some years ago.
I think you need to get ahold of your senses, sir.
The constitution IS the goddamn law of the land.
Most of it is extremely clear. Your claims of it needing 1000s of lawyers interpretations!?!?! WHAT?
That we seem to be under the spell of the lawyers themselves, who wish you to accept whatever interpretation best suits their clients is sad, indeed.
But, that we strayed from it in so many respects is a travesty.
The fact that you say "The law of the land has nothing to do anymore with those words written 200 some years ago." is one thing.
That i get a feeling you revel in that statement is all togeather worse.
I can't believe its come to pass that not only has the entire populace been brainwashed in to complacency and idiocy.
I REALLY can't belive that EVEN the people whom i believe to be hip to REAL reality are actualy in some sort of state of resignation as well ...
aww, fuck it, man.
its only like the goddamn constitution.
WTF !??!
WTF !?!
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I think you need to get ahold of your senses, sir.
The constitution IS the goddamn law of the land.
That we strayed from it in so many respects is a travesty.
The fact that you say "The law of the land has nothing to do anymore with those words written 200 some years ago." is one thing.
That i get a feeling you revel in that statement is all togeather worse.
I can't believe its come to pass that not only has the entire populace been brainwashed in to complacency and idiocy.
I REALLY can't belive that EVEN the people whom i believe to be hip to REAL reality are actualy in some sort of state of resignation as well ...
aww, fuck it, man.
its only like the goddamn constitution.
WTF !??!
WTF !?!
Listen, man, I'm rootin for the underdog here, but I have an opinion on the man, and he aint all that much, in my opinion. Say he does win this thing and surprises the nation, and the world... how far-reaching do you think this constitution (you like to think of as your own), how far will it go in regaining any sense of constitution at all?
Listen, man, I'm rootin for the underdog here, but I have an opinion on the man, and he aint all that much, in my opinion. Say he does win this thing and surprises the nation, and the world... how far-reaching do you think this constitution (you like to think of as your own), how far will it go in regaining any sense of constitution at all?
Q: I believe that's a legitimate on-topic question, sir.
A: It's a realistic question as well. This isn't Constitutional philosophy.
Q: So, how far will it go?
I think both you and Ron Paul need to shake yourself of the antiquity that is the United States Constitution.
He reveres it as a holy document. I have a problem with that. It was written in such a way that those who would interpret today are as varied and numerous in their interpretation of its words as there are lawyers in America.
The law of the land has nothing to do anymore with those words written 200 some years ago.
Who cares about government checks and balances! and like whatever about a document that created liberty, prosperity, and freedom, really worth or have to do with us? Government doesn't need any checks and balance! They do a great job, plutocrats, monopoly, rigged markets empire!
Latest poll shows Ron at 5%. Certainly not overwhelming support, but a good jump. Plus, looks like Ron's got another $5mil headed into the bank (http://www.ronpaul2008.com). Good stuff.
He's been polling between 3-8% in NH and that was before this real first week of tv and radio ads that have been airing in NH and Boston, MA (right over the border for NH commuters and bedroom communities). His ads have been noticeable on Boston television. The only other candidate ads I have seen on Boston tv are for Mitt Romney.
Who cares about government checks and balances! and like whatever about a document that created liberty, prosperity, and freedom, really worth or have to do with us? Government doesn't need any checks and balance! They do a great job, plutocrats, monopoly, rigged markets empire!
And somehow capitalism becomes a little less plutocratic, a little less monopolized, a little less rigged with Ron Paul in the White House? Give me a fucking break!
And for your intellectual information, not one document ever created anything.
There's no such thing as a war on terrorism. That's modern-day speak for extinguish the savages for profit.
Well thanks for enlightening me! I will now change my opinion based on your incoherent, conspiritorial ramblings! Terrorism doesn't exist! You did it gue_barium, you did it!
So this life is sacrifice...
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
And for your intellectual information, not one document ever created anything.
WTF?
I agree with Boston MA.
I typed a helluva response last night, but the computer ate it.
Bottom line, the constitution is responsible for 3 branch government, the invention of the instutitutions called congress and the senate, and the creation of a supreme court.
We still follow the constitution in a whole lot of proceedural ways. Most of the operations of government still do follow the constitution. It's the places where it is not being followed that are causing the problems -- letting private banks control money supply, income tax, regulation of food and drugs. Let the states do their own fucking jobs, destruction of search and seizure laws, etc.
I mean come on gue.
You really argue that it is not the constitution that created these things?
The great fathers of our country sat down for months\years to come up with the best system possible, and the wrote it down in the constitution.
Thats what we fucking follow.
How can you argue that.
You should see the constitution all around you.
Sure parts of it have been ignored or abused, but the fundamntal constraints of our government are still very much constitutional!
And yes, as i tried to say last night, if Ron Paul was allowed to reach the presidency, things WOULD change.
The outpouring of public support for the new president would create a rally-round-the-flag effect. The message would carry over to congressional elections, and people would vote out career politicians in favor of those that would do something.
Even more, when was the last time you heard an historic State Of The Union address? Yeah, what year was that, you said? Well I think Dr. Paul would use his pulpit to relay a message of true hope and change to the people. You could add his 2009 speech to the history books, for sure.
If congress wouldn't play ball, President Paul would get on a goddamn TV prime time address and let the people know what they needed to do to put pressure on the unresponsive parts of the system -- he'd give them a plan for achieving the real & massive change that they elected him to create.
Hope is infectious, and time is running out for America and the world. 2008 has to be our showdown in the sunset or we're fucked!
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Comments
Giving the US minnows their moment
The news organisation CNN, sponsor of the latest round of presidential debates, has been criticised by some supporters of the minor candidates for failing to give their views proper weight... continued at website
holy shit its FFG. that ron paul guy sure has gained some ground since you first started talking about him....go ron.
He is picking up a lot of steam. It was only a matter of time befoire his message started reaching the masses.
Just a thought.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
except this time around paul doesnt promote hate for the opposition. dean could be the biggest asshole in politics.
The difference is that Dean had enough voter support to be statistically significant in the early states.
Paul really isn't in the same position as Dean was in 04. He's not the front-runner anywhere and he's still considered a fringe candidate as opposed to a surpising contender. Dean was, for a while, the presumptive candidate, making his collapse appear much more dramatic than it actually was. When Ron Paul exits this race or simply fails to carry a significant number of states, no one will be surprised.
It is entirely possible that Paul really shocks some people and wins New Hampshire, but I don't see him getting very far beyond that. His candidacy simply represents an opportunity for a lot of divergent fringe groups on the right to come together, for a brief moment, under the same flag.
The nice thing about the Paul campaign is that it's already a win. Ron Paul has gotten a message out there that hasn't been heard on this kind of stage in nearly a generation. It's been awesome to see so many kids in their early twenties thinking and talking about issues that were strangely taboo when I was that age. Young people questioning both core neo-liberal and neo-conservative philosophies are exactly what this country needs right now. The next 10 years of American politics are going to be just more of the same, but the seeds being planted now will, I hope, bloom just in time.
You know I have never seen it in that light and it is a great point. Even if Paul fails to win the nomination it is still a win for the reasons you mentioned. Let's just hope that after Paul bows out that his message will not bow out with him and that the people who supported him and his ideals continue the fight.
That's the interesting question -- does the message outlive the man? Part of me is pessimistic because a lot of Ron Paul's supporters are just hardline anti-statists, conspiracy theorists and anti-globalists who are cherry-picking from the philosophy and don't really understand or care about the economic and moral case Ron is making. So the question becomes, once this run is over, what happens to these people? Do they return to their basements, bunkers, and boardrooms, fixating on their niche issues, never to be heard from politically again? Or does a influential new wing of the Republican party (or a third party) start to take shape out of all this? When I think about the cherry-pickers, I tend to foresee the former. But when I see 20 year old kids actually thinking about the economic consequences and moral equivocations of the war machine and the welfare state, I tend to foresee the latter.
The nice thing about this run is that there's no natural haven for a lot of Ron's supporters outside the rather ridiculous Libertarian Party. If we look at Howard Dean's case, for instance, we see that a lot of his supporters simply had a natural and readily available alternative after Dean faded -- that alternative being just some other Democrat. But most of Paul's supporters, myself included, are certainly not going to vote for Giuliani or Thompson or Romney next November, nor are we going to align ourselves with the inept Libertarians. So, hopefully, we'll end up with a motivated and thinking base of individuals who are very hungry for change in this nation and who are not going to quickly retreat to other disparate individuals or parties who offer little change. Time will tell, I suppose. But, for now, I'll get a lot of satisfaction from the 19 year old hipster kid I met last night who denounced fiat currency and challenged the sacred cow of "public welfare" when, five years ago, he would have been demanding Universal Health Care and nation building. Small stuff, but cool stuff.
Well let's hope that the majority of Paul's supporters are not the niche thinkers but people who actually believe in his message and ideology. This way the message will definitely outlive the man. Also that is pretty impressive for a 19 year old. When I was 19 I would have never had such a profound view.
Hey, you and I agree on something.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
By JOEL STEIN
It sometimes seems as if someone is playing a cruel practical joke on Ron Paul. He goes to a college and delivers the same speech he's given for the past 30 years of his political career, the one espousing the Austrian school of economics. Only now the audience is packed with hundreds of kids in RON PAUL REVOLUTION T-shirts who go nuts - giving standing ovations when he drones on about getting rid of the Federal Reserve and returning to the gold standard. After a speech at Iowa State last month, when nearly half the crowd had to stand because there were only 400 seats, a hipster-looking student worked his way through the half-hour-long line to shake Paul's hand. This was surely it - the moment when the straight faces would break and Paul would be wedgied up the flagpole. "When you see Bernanke," the kid said, "will you tell him to stop cutting rates when gold hits 1,000?"
Politics might be rock 'n' roll for nerds, but the nerds aren't supposed to be quite this nerdy. The leader of the disaffected in next year's presidential election - the Howard Dean, the Ross Perot, the Pat Buchanan - is a kindly great-grandfather and obstetrician whose passion is monetary policy. Paul, a 72-year-old hard-core libertarian Republican Congressman who is against foreign intervention, subsidies and the federal income tax, is not only drawing impressive crowds (more than 2,000 at a post-debate rally at the University of Michigan last month) but also raising tons of cash. In the third quarter of 2007, Paul took in $5.3 million (just slightly less than G.O.P. rival John McCain), mostly in small, individual donations. On Oct. 22, he aired his first TV ads, $1.1 million worth in New Hampshire.
The numbers are even more impressive considering that as of early October, 72% of G.O.P. voters told Gallup pollsters they didn't know enough about Paul to form an opinion. He has been able to attract followers in the debates, where he's presented a clear, simple philosophy of personal freedom and responsibility. He bluntly refers to the U.S. as an empire. And the nerdiness lends Paul's simple message an aura of credibility, especially on a stage with more polished politicians and their nuanced positions. "He's about something that American nerd culture can get on board with: really knowing one subject and going all out on it," says Ben Darrington, a Ron Paul supporter at Yale. "For some people, it's Star Wars. For some people, it's Japanese cartoons. For Ron Paul, it's free-market commodity money."
The libertarian's traction is most apparent on the Internet, where his presence far outstrips that of any candidate from either party. His name is the most searched, his YouTube videos the most watched, his campaign the topic of songs by at least 14 bands. "The last thing I would listen to is rap," Paul says. "But there's something going on when there's a rap song about the Fed." On Tuesday, both Paul and Tom Cruise were guests on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno. The actor went to Paul's dressing room to thank him for his work on a bill fighting the forced mental screening of grade-school kids. "Go. Go. Go. Go hard," Cruise said. Paul turned to an aide and asked, "What movies has he been in?"
Paul's fans - and there were more than 100 of them in Leno's audience, many of whom had flown in from out of town - are entranced by a man who responds to surprising information with "Wowee" and a jaw-dropped smile not often seen apart from 5-year-old boys and Muppets. "It's the message. Ron isn't that exciting as himself," says Andre Marrou, who was Paul's running mate when he ran as a Libertarian in 1988. "I saw him referred to in print as semi-eccentric. He's maybe 10% eccentric. It's his ideas that are eccentric. But it's basic Americanism." Paul is such a strict constructionist that he autographs pocket Constitutions more often than Tommy Lee signs breasts.
But Paul's popularity can't necessarily be explained by a previously undetected craving for gold-standard debates on college campuses. His message, even if packaged in obscure economic lectures, is that there is something very corrupt, very Halliburton-Blackwatery going on with our military-industrial complex, and that can attract some pretty weird followers. At the Iowa State event, a student stood outside in a tricornered hat and Revolutionary War–era suit, ringing a bell. Representative Tom Tancredo, another long-shot G.O.P. candidate, tells me that after a debate in New Hampshire, one of his staffers walked up to a guy in a shark costume and asked him if he was a Ron Paul supporter. "No. They're all nuts," replied the shark. "I'm just a guy in a shark suit." There is a subset of Paul supporters who believe 9/11 was an inside job by the U.S. government. And there are anarchists as well: They've picked Nov. 5, Guy Fawkes Day, for a fund-raising drive.
"His supporters are the equivalent of crabgrass," says G.O.P. consultant Frank Luntz. "It's not the grass you want, and it spreads faster than the real stuff. They just like him because he's the most anti-Establishment of all the candidates, the most likely to look at the camera during the debates and say, 'Hey, Washington, f--- you.'"
The one place Paul hasn't become a major player is where it counts: in the polls, where he hasn't broken above 5% and has yet to pass Mike Huckabee. Paul realizes he's not a favorite among the pro-war, pro-Bush Republicans. "A lot of times at my rally, I say, 'We're diverse. We even have some Republicans,'" he jokes. (His largest Meetup.com group gathers in liberal Austin, Texas; another sizable one is in San Francisco.) And he isn't sure where all this sudden support will lead.
Paul doesn't expect that he will win the nomination, and he has no interest in running as an independent again. But he also doesn't see himself endorsing one of the other Republicans in the general election. "Those people who support me wouldn't believe it," he says. "If I said, 'Giuliani's a great guy, and he'll reduce subsidies and bring the troops home'? I couldn't do that." Even nerd revolutions don't surrender.
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1678661,00.html?xid=feed-yahoo-full-nation
Great article. Thanks for posting it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21646939/
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
If there's one thing I've learned from this post, its that sweetpotato has no sense of irony.
Nice to meet you
I'd like him to be more Pro-Life but his idea of returning that jurisdiction to the states' is probably the most practical way to go at this point in time.
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
There's no such thing as a war on terrorism. That's modern-day speak for extinguish the savages for profit.
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If "practical" is part of the thought process here, then you've missed the whole message that IS ron paul.
Dr. Paul, the ob\gyn, is actualy very much personaly pro-life ... he thinks its a great harm to a living being ... HOWEVER ... Ron Paul is an honest CONSTITUTIONAL man, and his decision to turn abortion rights over to the state is not rooted in his personal world view... it's rooted in the forgoten constitution of our great land!
"Federal Law" is something foreign to the constitution outside of counterfeiting, treason, and crimes upon the high seas. Ron Paul seeks to get away from Federal rule at any turn he can shake it. Abortion is no exception.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I think both you and Ron Paul need to shake yourself of the antiquity that is the United States Constitution.
He reveres it as a holy document. I have a problem with that. It was written in such a way that those who would interpret today are as varied and numerous in their interpretation of its words as there are lawyers in America.
The law of the land has nothing to do anymore with those words written 200 some years ago.
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I think you need to get ahold of your senses, sir.
The constitution IS the goddamn law of the land.
Most of it is extremely clear. Your claims of it needing 1000s of lawyers interpretations!?!?! WHAT?
That we seem to be under the spell of the lawyers themselves, who wish you to accept whatever interpretation best suits their clients is sad, indeed.
But, that we strayed from it in so many respects is a travesty.
The fact that you say "The law of the land has nothing to do anymore with those words written 200 some years ago." is one thing.
That i get a feeling you revel in that statement is all togeather worse.
I can't believe its come to pass that not only has the entire populace been brainwashed in to complacency and idiocy.
I REALLY can't belive that EVEN the people whom i believe to be hip to REAL reality are actualy in some sort of state of resignation as well ...
aww, fuck it, man.
its only like the goddamn constitution.
WTF !??!
WTF !?!
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Listen, man, I'm rootin for the underdog here, but I have an opinion on the man, and he aint all that much, in my opinion. Say he does win this thing and surprises the nation, and the world... how far-reaching do you think this constitution (you like to think of as your own), how far will it go in regaining any sense of constitution at all?
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A: It's a realistic question as well. This isn't Constitutional philosophy.
Q: So, how far will it go?
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http://www.mikecann.net/2009/02/best-smoking-song-poll.html
Vote on Our Best Smoking Poll with Pearl Jam song!
http://www.mikecann.net/2009/02/best-smoking-song-poll.html
Vote on Our Best Smoking Poll with Pearl Jam song!
And for your intellectual information, not one document ever created anything.
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Well thanks for enlightening me! I will now change my opinion based on your incoherent, conspiritorial ramblings! Terrorism doesn't exist! You did it gue_barium, you did it!
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
WTF?
I agree with Boston MA.
I typed a helluva response last night, but the computer ate it.
Bottom line, the constitution is responsible for 3 branch government, the invention of the instutitutions called congress and the senate, and the creation of a supreme court.
We still follow the constitution in a whole lot of proceedural ways. Most of the operations of government still do follow the constitution. It's the places where it is not being followed that are causing the problems -- letting private banks control money supply, income tax, regulation of food and drugs. Let the states do their own fucking jobs, destruction of search and seizure laws, etc.
I mean come on gue.
You really argue that it is not the constitution that created these things?
The great fathers of our country sat down for months\years to come up with the best system possible, and the wrote it down in the constitution.
Thats what we fucking follow.
How can you argue that.
You should see the constitution all around you.
Sure parts of it have been ignored or abused, but the fundamntal constraints of our government are still very much constitutional!
And yes, as i tried to say last night, if Ron Paul was allowed to reach the presidency, things WOULD change.
The outpouring of public support for the new president would create a rally-round-the-flag effect. The message would carry over to congressional elections, and people would vote out career politicians in favor of those that would do something.
Even more, when was the last time you heard an historic State Of The Union address? Yeah, what year was that, you said? Well I think Dr. Paul would use his pulpit to relay a message of true hope and change to the people. You could add his 2009 speech to the history books, for sure.
If congress wouldn't play ball, President Paul would get on a goddamn TV prime time address and let the people know what they needed to do to put pressure on the unresponsive parts of the system -- he'd give them a plan for achieving the real & massive change that they elected him to create.
Hope is infectious, and time is running out for America and the world. 2008 has to be our showdown in the sunset or we're fucked!
If I opened it now would you not understand?