A question about Jesus.
binger
Posts: 179
Was he the son of God, or a man? The Bible contradicts itself claiming both things. An apple is never an orange and an orange is never an apple. So which is right?
Christ's claim to divinity is usually attributed to being born of the stock of David. Joseph being descended from David. Not Mary.
or
Christ was born of the Virgin Mary, having never known any man. Which defies the laws of the universe.
My belief, he was a man who was schooled by a lost arcaine order in metaphysics and had learned how to master the body's energies. Using those energies for the purpose of good, he was before his time, and the people living during those times were still not ready for his word. His message that we all, being lesser parts of a greater divine being, had the capacity to talk to "God" individually and tap into that source personally, not through the church. By deciding to be crucified, for it was the people who named him king if the Jews, not him, he did not do anything other than fulfill a prophecy, which in essence borught his teachings to light. Hence Christianity. Otherwise he would not have been any different than other crucified of the day.
Saved through Christ, but really through the teachings of Christ you find salvation. No one should expect to be forgiven just because they believe in Jesus. If saving is what we are all looking for, we should be looking towards bettering our own lives, righting our own wrongs, making amends when we are able to and looking at every moment as a moral test. We are the makers and deciders of our own fate. Jesus cannot save you anymore than he could save himself. But in dying on the cross, he lived in his word...
We turned him into the solar diety of the age. No different than the Greek's Dyonisis, or Egypt's Osiris and many others. Great leaders of the past, many having 12 followers, performing miracles, walking on water, turning water into wine, healing the sick, resurrection on the 3rd day.
There is only one small place in the entire Bible that mentions the trinity. And the word trinity is never used.
1 John 5:7-8
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
When you compare older translations of the Bible, there is no mention of "son"
There is the original Greek text, then the Latin trascrription after many years to satisfy the needs of the Catholic church, where in translation, punctuation and words were changed.
I do believe in the concept of the trinity, though admittedly my viewpoint is not the mainstream veiw. I have been researching many books on metaphysics and have found many references to the trinity. None having to do with a "son" who by praying for forgiveness in his name, will save me.
Peace
My apologies if this was posted before. I'm curious how deeply religious people who follow the Bible can rectify this one in their heads? And am interested in amy answers.
Christ's claim to divinity is usually attributed to being born of the stock of David. Joseph being descended from David. Not Mary.
or
Christ was born of the Virgin Mary, having never known any man. Which defies the laws of the universe.
My belief, he was a man who was schooled by a lost arcaine order in metaphysics and had learned how to master the body's energies. Using those energies for the purpose of good, he was before his time, and the people living during those times were still not ready for his word. His message that we all, being lesser parts of a greater divine being, had the capacity to talk to "God" individually and tap into that source personally, not through the church. By deciding to be crucified, for it was the people who named him king if the Jews, not him, he did not do anything other than fulfill a prophecy, which in essence borught his teachings to light. Hence Christianity. Otherwise he would not have been any different than other crucified of the day.
Saved through Christ, but really through the teachings of Christ you find salvation. No one should expect to be forgiven just because they believe in Jesus. If saving is what we are all looking for, we should be looking towards bettering our own lives, righting our own wrongs, making amends when we are able to and looking at every moment as a moral test. We are the makers and deciders of our own fate. Jesus cannot save you anymore than he could save himself. But in dying on the cross, he lived in his word...
We turned him into the solar diety of the age. No different than the Greek's Dyonisis, or Egypt's Osiris and many others. Great leaders of the past, many having 12 followers, performing miracles, walking on water, turning water into wine, healing the sick, resurrection on the 3rd day.
There is only one small place in the entire Bible that mentions the trinity. And the word trinity is never used.
1 John 5:7-8
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
When you compare older translations of the Bible, there is no mention of "son"
There is the original Greek text, then the Latin trascrription after many years to satisfy the needs of the Catholic church, where in translation, punctuation and words were changed.
I do believe in the concept of the trinity, though admittedly my viewpoint is not the mainstream veiw. I have been researching many books on metaphysics and have found many references to the trinity. None having to do with a "son" who by praying for forgiveness in his name, will save me.
Peace
My apologies if this was posted before. I'm curious how deeply religious people who follow the Bible can rectify this one in their heads? And am interested in amy answers.
I want to point out that people who seem to have no power, whether working people, people of color, or women -- once they organize and protest and create movements -- have a voice no government can suppress. Howard Zinn
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Comments
but then when they kill his ass.. he doesn't come and show everybody that "he is risen"
bullshit
"but he will return"
my ass
christians and muslims are wrong about that fucker
jews are wrong about everything else
god is for idiots
carry on
Look Busy
Not sure who you are, but peace to you. I was sort of hoping for a better dialogue. Personally I do believe in a Supreme Spirit, who I call God for lack of a better name at this time. Others call it something else. There is really only one source. From that, came everything else. Again, Peace to you my friend.
man i thought i had heard everything...
and then this was posted. im impressed that 2 people i never saw before could make such a sudden impression on me.
anyway, my take:
jesus was a jew with some pretty liberal/reformative ideas about the faith's practices. he was a man who advocated serious changes that upset the status quo and was executed when his ideas started to catch fire among the young and poor.
I believe our lives are ruled by the forces of Karma, Fate and Destiny and we choose how we interact with those forces throughout our lives, not ever realizing the true intent. That every moment is a test. And we choose whether we fail or pass. I fail all the time. And I pick myself up and go on.
Nothing of what I have to say should be interpreted as negativity toward any other person. I only am looking for understanding. When 2 systems tend to clash with one another, I try to find the commonality and bring them together.
Of course I could be completely wrong. Doubt and uncertainty has it's place. Without either, hope is lost. I have great hope.
I am also a Christian...yet my own faith is quite different then that preached of the modern church. I think the idea of a trinity is confusing..and unneccessary.
Its funny as i was talking w/ a women of native american decent yesterday about their beliefs on God..and she said...she is spiritual...yet not religious..because in most major religions...they try to put the spirit into a box and tell people what it is...yet that is impossible...because it is different for everyone...and each has to follow their own path.
i thought that was cool. i honestly believe...that if you follow your conscience and try to do good overall...you will be quite alright. That voice inside of you nudging your conscience is the divinity inside of you...the spark of the true spirit that unites us all!
-Big Fish
No contradiction, if you have ever studied a shred of theology (or been to a Sunday school class at least once before). Its called the Incarnation, which I'm sure you knew. But in case you need a refresher, it basically means that Jesus, whom always existed with the Father, took on flesh, or became man, in other words. (John 1)
Hmm...that's a new one on me. Reccomned any books (scholarly) that I might read to investigate that theory further?
There is another half to the New Testament (you know, like Paul...) ,and why we should overlook those books is unclear. But, if you want Christ's own words, try John 14:6,
Yeah, so? I use several translations, including the King James, which you just quoted. That is in no way the only verse that supports the trinity, a doctrine that theologians do not take from a single verse.
Hope this helped.
Signed,
A deeply religous person who follows the Bible
Wow...How to respond......Well, not much substance here. A brief history lesson, and perhaps an argument or two, the "bullshit" and "my ass" arguments, which I'm not sure are that strong. I might be offended by the fact Jesus is referred to here as a "fucker" (which may or may not add to the strength of the arguments just mentioned).
Uh, what else is there to do after a post like that? It really didn't inspire too much philosophical reflection...
this sounds like buddhism?
thats such a fucking maze i wanna puke
love is love
and hate is hate
all this winding intelligence
look paul terri bryce dewey frank etc
suck it bitches
dreamer in my dream
we got the guns
i love you,but im..............callin out.........callin out
We mere mortals cannot answer this.................
Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
Are you like in the same philosophy class as brocabulary?
none deserve any acceptance .
god is for idiots
God is for idiots? Why? Has this always been the case? Is being an idiot a necessary condition for believing in God?
Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
I just realized I misread your statement, so ignore this comment...
Sorry!
sounds like your beliefs have lead you to a place of happiness....
-Big Fish
I agree, but to be fair to brocabulary, there are many idiots who believe in him as well. I don't think I am one....
not really. How smart can they really be to believe that ghost 'n goblins shit ?
yes .. if you believe that there is some fucker in the sky... you are an idiot
Huh? What is "ghost 'n goblins shit"? Do you mean belief in God? Jesus? Specific Christian claims like the resurrection?
I don't believe that at all...What a silly misrepresentation of Christian theology!
You have not made it entirely clear as to why belief in God makes one an idiot...you just keep calling everything a "fucker". I don't think that alone is helping your case...
Exactly.
Seems to be making a case that non-believers are dumb.
Seriously, when you cuss a lot you just sound dumb.
Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
The trinity I believe in and here is a snippet of the things that are in my book.
Interpret them as you want to, but know that there are many meanings, hidden and directly implied. The book is called the Kolbrin. I have been studying from it daily for almost a year and a half, only recently starting to study the other books that complement this book. It is hailed as a book of Celtic and Egyptian wisdom that was hidden for years brought by the followers of christ to Glastonbury, Scotland where it was housed at a church later burned to destroy these books, scrolls and tablets. They ended up being stored in a different area and was held by a group of druid priests for hundreds of years before being published out of New Zealand. I have the original first printing of the book. Which now need replaced because it's binding has fallen apart. The wisdom inside has changed my life. Where it comes from is of no interest to me, but you asked so...
Here is what it has to say about the Trinity. They are not my words and copied as far as I can tell completely and exactly.
"These things, which follow, are found in the Book of Recitals
There are three adornment of life: Love, Truth and Beauty.
There are three things of which God is the source: Life, Wisdom and Power.
There are three things which men must get from living: The greatest benefit, the greatest knowledge, and the greatest experience.
There are three causes in which it is fitting that men should risk their lives: In establishing Truth, in upholding Justice, and in seeking Liberty.
There are three paramount qualities to which all else should be subordinate: Love, Truth, and Good.
There are Three things men should put above themselves: Their faith, their race, and humankind.
There are three things a man should value above his life and possessions: His family, his honour and his reputation.
There are three principles of government: Effective security of life and person, security of possessions and dwelling, and security of personal rights.
There are three things which a government must hold inviolate: A man's family, his dignity and his opinion.
There are three things government must provide: Education, Justice, and safety.
There are three pillars of the state: The questing scholar, the diligent craftsman, and the incorruptible official.
There are three unities: One God, One Truth and One Creation.
There are three things for which the Earth exists: The development of souls, the fulfilment of the destiny of man, and the manifestation of life.
There are three things man must give to life: Beauty, Stability and Harmony.
There are three things women must give to life: Love, Goodness, and Compassion.
There are three things only God can do: Constantly renew himself in the infinate Circle of Eternity, remain unchanging while impregnating every state of changability, and encompass everything existing.
There are three things required of men: The ability to change what is changeable, to accept that which is unchangeable, and to know the difference.
There are three virtues of maidenhood: Prudence, Modesty, and Decorum.
There are three virtues of wifehood: Faithfulness, Industriousness, and Motherliness.
There are three graces: Faith, Hope, and Love.
There are three things to know about God: He must be sought for, He cannot be given anything by man which increases His Greatness and he dwells within His own law.
There are three rights of man: Freedom to move, to enjoy privacy, and to speak his mind.
There are three things God requires of man: Effort, Courage, and Reverence for the sacred.
There are three duties of woman: To reproduce the race, to inspire man, and beautify life.
There are three duties of man: To protect the race, strive for progress, and elevate humankind.
There are three things which distort the soul: Malice, Deceit, and Sensuality.
There are three things which govern a man's relationship with others: What he requires in another, what he forbids in another, and what he regards with indifference as being entirely the concern of another.
There are three things which shatter a man's life: An unfaithful wife, invasion by foriegners, and crippling disease.
There are three principles of greatness: Obediance to the law, concern for the welfare of the community, and the ability to suffer with fortitude all the blows of fate.
There are three states of being: That of God in the Great Circle, that of Spirit in the Outer Circle, and that of matter in the Inner Circle.
There are three duties of parenthood: To protect, to cherish, and to educate the child.
There are three duties of a child toward it's parents: Obedience, Respect and Loyalty.
There are three qualities of a husband: Consideration, Protectiveness, and Care.
There are three essientials of manhood: Courage, Fortitude, and Honour.
There are three qualities of womanhood: Loyalty, Decency, and Gentleness.
There are three jewels of womanhood: Modesty, Decorum, and Circumspection.
There are three prime qualities of the real man: The ability to maintain self-control, the ability to remain calm under stress and provication, and the ability to not stand too rigidly on his rights.
There are three things in men that other men hate:Saying one thing with the mouth while holding something quite different in the heart, withholding evidence in favour of another to the detriment of another, and spreading scandal and gossip.
There are three things that hold the state in cohesion: Effective protection for everyone and their property, just punishment when due, and a proper blend of punishment and mercy.
There are three obligations of men in war: To kill and not be killed, to destroy the enemy and his possessions, and to survive the onslaught.
There are three types of persons who cannot bear arms: A bondsman, a boy under fifteen, and a public idiot.
There are three kinds of stone for which removal is death: A council stone, a session stone, and a guide stone.
There are three things for which the punishment shall be greater than death: Killing a kinsman, killing a child or virgin, and killing an idiot.
There are three things for which the trumpet sounds three times: The counting of heads and the numbering of families, the horns of harvest and the horns of war.
There are three persons who can demand hospitality: The traveller from afar, the afflicted or orphan, and the bard.
There are three groups entitled to freedom of movement and maintenence: Chiefs of tribes and their retinue, druids and their followers, and judges and the retainers of their courts.
There are three types who can claim citizenship: Those who bring new land under cultivation, those who work with metals, and those who bear arms.
There are three basic protections: Protection of life and persons, protection of possessions and dwelling and protection of natural privileges.
There are three types of persons who forfeit life: One who betrays his country, race, or kindred, one who kills another through visciousness, lust or gain, and one who injures a child for life.
There are three things which are indivisible and unghangeable: The Supreme Being, Truth and Reality.
There is one God, Truth and Reality.
There are three necessities of man: Change, Suffering, and Choice.
There are three tests to determine a free man: He has equal rights with every other man, he has no more obligation to the government than it has to him, and he has the freedom to come and go.
There are three things essiential to a united nationhood: The same language, the same rights for all and the same race.
There are three things which are private, untouchable, and sacred to every man: his wife, his children and his tools of trade.
There are three persons in the family exempt from menial or heavy work: The small child, the aged man or woman, and the sick and afflicted.
There are three civil birthrights: The right to free movement, the right of protection for family, possessions and liberty, and the right to equality in privilege and restriction.
There are three requirements for social stability: Security of life and limb, security of family and possessions, and security of traditions and culture.
There are three foundations of the nation: National solidarity, national courage and national pride.
There are three things a man can be legally compelled to do: Fulfil his family obligations, attend a law court and serve in the military in times of national peril.
There are three things for which a man can be called a traitor: Aiding the enemy, meekly submitting to an enemy, adn betraying his race.
There are three things no law can deny: Water from a spring, river, or lake, wood from a decayed or naturally fallen tree or branch, and unused stone.
There are three forms of sonship: A son born within a marriage, a son born outside a marriage but publically accknowledged by the father, and a son by adoption.
There are three types of thieves not to be punished: A woman compelled to steal by her father or husband, a young child and a starving person who steal to eat.
There are three things which must remain open and free to all: Rivers, roads and places of worship.
Here are some online links to the book
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/kolbrin01.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/kolbrin02.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/kolbrin03.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/kolbrin04.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/kolbrin05.htm
Roman gods and goddesses = saints
Communion at altar = human sacrifice
Holy Trinity could fit in this way as well, as Christianity spread into Egypt.
Nuclear fission
The virgin birth is not impossible because Mary never had sex, on a vary rare chance Mary could have had a virgin birth, but since Mary only has X chromosomes, she could have only given a virgin birth to a female child. Men have XY configuration.