Okay, but I don't see the part where you're gonna fix it. Obama certainly won't. Think the economy is bad now? Whoa boy, the times are changing indeed. I can't wait till Obama levies even higher taxes on corporations. I don't see how that could possibly fix the economy, without converting over to a fully socialist system. Oh, wait...
I don't agree with Obama's fiscal policy because I believe that we should be reducing spending, extremely reducing spending. With that said Obama's tax policy makes more fiscal sense than McCain's. Neither candidate is going to cut over all spending. They may slash some here and there but they will increase spending in other areas. So it can be said that spending will remain the same or increase under either candidate. With Obama's policy the government will be collecting more revenue to close the deficit gap. Under McCain's policy the government would only be widening the budget deficit and creating more debt. It is irresponsible fiscal policy to collect less than what you spend, I mean isn't that ideology what started this whole sub-prime financial meltdown.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
It is irresponsible fiscal policy to collect less than what you spend, I mean isn't that ideology what started this whole sub-prime financial meltdown.
Then why not spend less than what we collect? Why is higher taxes always the automatic response for deficit spending? Cut the fucking spending already! Obama is talking about how bad the economy is and meanwhile he wants to raise taxes on corporations. That makes NO SENSE!! McCain at least has a little bit of a record to show that he would maybe cut spending (and so does Palin). Obama has no record in that area. Odds are against it happening, but I feel McCain is more likely to do it than Obama.
Bottom line, neither party is really concerned with cutting spending. Which is sad, and also why we need new parties.
I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
-Reagan
Then why not spend less than what we collect? Why is higher taxes always the automatic response for deficit spending? Cut the fucking spending already! Obama is talking about how bad the economy is and meanwhile he wants to raise taxes on corporations. That makes NO SENSE!! McCain at least has a little bit of a record to show that he would maybe do cut spending (and so does Palin). Obama has no record in that area. Not saying McCain would, but the record is at least there.
Neither would cut spending across the board and yes I agree that reducing spending is my preferred choice, as I stated in the beginning of my post, but unfortunately that is not an option available to us from these candidates. So we can either create more debt, causing more inflation or we can try to balance the budget. To me balancing the budget is far better fiscal policy.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Neither would cut spending across the board and yes I agree that reducing spending is my preferred choice, as I stated in the beginning of my post, but unfortunately that is not an option available to us from these candidates. So we can either create more debt, causing more inflation or we can try to balance the budget. To me balancing the budget is far better fiscal policy.
McCain did say in the first debate that he would commit to a spending freeze, besides veterans' affairs; I don't think that's going to happen, and I don't think that's anywhere close to the right approach, but he did throw that out in the first debate.
McCain did say in the first debate that he would commit to a spending freeze, besides veterans' affairs; I don't think that's going to happen, and I don't think that's anywhere close to the right approach, but he did throw that out in the first debate.
That's not cutting spending, that's freezing it at it's current levels. Also with the financial crisis we are in now, with so many people loosing jobs don't you think that will also equate to more government assistance or should we just let those people fall through the cracks. Point of the matter is that McCain, nor Obama, are going to slash spending drastically or at all. So, unfortunately, if that is the case then we need to consider what would be better, less taxes = larger debt, possible inflation and weakening of the dollar or higher taxes for the top 5% = an attempt of closing the budget gap. Again I don't support either policy. My choice would be to cut spending so we could reduce taxes without creating a budget deficit.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
There's alot that's not true about that in my opinion, but on first notice you didn't even mention John McCain.
Never mind. You do mention him once. A sterling endorsement.
EDIT: Oh man, this is absolutely ridiculous. You're right; I don't know how to respond to most of this. Michelle Obama is a "bitter, angry, anti-American racist?" Is this Sean Hannity? I want to debate and discuss with people who disagree with me, but how can I do that when you avoid issues and just engage in angry, mindless rhetoric? What's the point. We're talking about voting for the next Presidental contender; who the hell cares about Nancy Pelosi and who Sweden gives the Nobel Prize to? For your talk of Michelle being bitter, this is exactly what your posts above sound like. A bitter partisan who brings no facts to the table, just some strange ax to grind with liberals. So much for a reasonable discussion.
So in short, yes you're right, there's not much to talk about.
There's alot that's not true about that in my opinion, but on first notice you didn't even mention John McCain.
Never mind. You do mention him once. A sterling endorsement.
EDIT: Oh man, this is absolutely ridiculous. You're right; I don't know how to respond to most of this. Michelle Obama is a "bitter, angry, anti-American racist?" Is this Sean Hannity? I want to debate and discuss with people who disagree with me, but how can I do that when you avoid issues and just engage in angry, mindless rhetoric? What's the point. We're talking about voting for the next Presidental contender; who the hell cares about Nancy Pelosi and who Sweden gives the Nobel Prize to? For your talk of Michelle being bitter, this is exactly what your posts above sound like. A bitter partisan who brings no facts to the table, just some strange ax to grind with liberals. So much for a reasonable discussion.
So in short, yes you're right, there's not much to talk about.
get ready for it ... I think it's only going to get worse from here on out ... I'm sure they will be calling him Barack Hussein Obama every chance they get ...
"You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
Pepper I've already expressed to you that I am a Ron Paul supporter and will undoubtably end up writing in his name come November, unless Bob Barr can some how impress me before the. As to what you said, most of it is talking points, half truths and misleading points about a political party and your reference to the cross dressing voting block is a bit insulting, not because I'm a cross dresser but because their votes count just as much as everyone else's. I agree that the Democratic party is a joke, a dismal display, but the Republican party is no better. The Republican party has lost it's way and, in my opinion, is in worse shape than the Democrats. I can at least say that the Democrats, as shitty as some of their policies are, at least have stuck to their principles for the most part. The Republicans have not. What was once the party of limited government, controlled spending and non-interventionism has now become this bloated carcass that panders to an overly righteous religious sect. The mere fact that Republicans would rush back to Washington to vote on a personal family issue like the Terri Shiavo case is enough to make me want to vomit. The fact that the Republican party, not all of them, wanted to amend our Constitution to define marriage is unthinkable. How any one who considers themselves a conservative, a true conservative not this moral majority crap, and still support this party is completely indecent.
Probably on of the best governors that my home state has had in my lifetime, Christine Todd Whitman, wrote a great book about the hijacking of the Republican party. I would recommend this book to anyone who fancies themselves a Republican or Conservative. It discuss exactly what I have just stated about the Republican party loosing it's way.
So yes the Dems are horrible but to state that the Republicans are so much better is a joke and much of what you stated simply isn't true my friend. While Obama is a very far cry from being an even half way decent Presidential candidate he is far from the worst in our lifetime.
I would also like to add that hyper-partisanship, of which I have to say you have shown here, is the true problem in this country. People are so fiercely pitted against one an other because of political party that it impedes our ability to get anything accomplished. As long as we stay divided we will never fix what is broken in Washington. As I have stated before no matter who wins this election, we the people, always loose and until we can put aside our political difference we will never even come close to winning.
Edit: Let me also add since the several times I have mentioned it no one has addressed it, the Republican support for MEK and men like Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada Carilles. These two men walk freely in this country because of the Republican party. These two men where responsible for the bombing of the Cubana Air flight in 1976 that killed over 70 people. These men where involved in the assassination of Orlando Letelier in Dupont Circle in Washington DC. Posada Carilles was responsible for a string of hotel bombings in Cuba that injured scores of people and killed one Italian tourist. These men where responsible for countless assassination attempts and bombings through out Latin American. Carilles snuck into this country illegally, was caught and detained and later released to be a free man. All this even though Venezuala was asking that he be extradited to Venezuela to face charges for crimes committed there, we have had an extradition treaty with Venezuela since 1922. If this not harboring terrorism and the worse part is that the Poasada carilles case occured after 9/11.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
ayers is a hero. i support the weathermen. I support Ayers.
Whats funny is, 3 pages into this asinine coversation, no one responded to my extremely pertinant point. How could you link Ayers, a man who is a radical activist and revolutionary in the true sense, to a man who is a career politician a man who believes in change through the system and through his being elected president? How is this fair? Obama's continuing to say "I was 8 years old" is a legimate point, Ayers isnt being judged by what he did this year. he is being judged by what he did in 1969 and 1970.
People should educate themselves before posting. Instead of being angry at Ayers, why arent you all pissed at those crooked cops? They believed ayers and the weathermen were terrorists and criminals. So they tracked them. Wiretapped them. Hunted them. Spied. Infiltrated the groups, FBI members even going as far as growing hair out, and actually becoming hippies in order to gain get information. When COINTELPRO became public, oddly enough this was right around the time when Ayers and his wife turned themselves in. Thats right, he turned himself in. But the judge ruled that the cops and investigators had investigated the whole thing in a criminal and illegal manner.
How people can suggest Obama, as a politician, who believes in capitalism and free markets, and consumerist culture, is somehow ideologically similar to Ayers is beyond me. Obama is everything ayers and his pals were raving AGAINST years ago
get ready for it ... I think it's only going to get worse from here on out ... I'm sure they will be calling him Barack Hussein Obama every chance they get ...
I don't mind that people have passionate feelings against against Obama; I understand entirely that many people may feel he's the direct wrong direction for this country. That's fine; let's talk about that. Let's talk economy. Let's talk Iraq. But just because someone's passionate like PEPPER is doesn't allow him/her or anybody else to ignore facts. The fact is that there is nothing reputable that could give Pepper the impression that Michelle Obama is a racist.
There's alot I disagree with in Pepper's most; for example, the Department of Energy, not liberal crazies, are the ones who have said the prices of gas will not be felt for thirty years. And we cannot drill our way into energy independence when we have an extremely limited supply. But let's have that argument, let's lay out those points. Issues like that aren't the point of Pepper's posts; "Michelle is a racist," "Barack Hussein Obama," the bizarre rant about Jimmy Carter and the Nobel Prize, Nancy Pelosi, I mean, who gives a shit? I ask why a McCain supporter is voting for him and I get that? False and half-truth accusations and character assassinations? I don't like it when any party or person does it, but I'm pretty sick, as I'm sure most are, at the pitiful excuse for political dialogue in this country. And most of my problems are illustrated nicely in Pepper's posts. I don't mean to call him or her out; both parties do it and many posters do it. But go back to the Michelle accusation; there's nothing to support that. At all. Why, then, would somebody believe it? Pepper, why do you believe that? It's baseless.
What's sadly ironic is that all that vile rhetoric, the Muslim stuff, Michelle is a racist, Rezko, etc...it's the same kind of political practices that brought down John McCain's incredible campaign in 2000. He's fallen so far it's hard to remember what a breath of fresh air he was then. Now it's 2008, and his supporters engage in it just the same.
I don't mind that people have passionate feelings against against Obama; I understand entirely that many people may feel he's the direct wrong direction for this country. That's fine; let's talk about that. Let's talk economy. Let's talk Iraq. But just because someone's passionate like PEPPER is doesn't allow him/her or anybody else to ignore facts. The fact is that there is nothing reputable that could give Pepper the impression that Michelle Obama is a racist.
There's alot I disagree with in Pepper's most; for example, the Department of Energy, not liberal crazies, are the ones who have said the prices of gas will not be felt for thirty years. And we cannot drill our way into energy independence when we have an extremely limited supply. But let's have that argument, let's lay out those points. Issues like that aren't the point of Pepper's posts; "Michelle is a racist," "Barack Hussein Obama," the bizarre rant about Jimmy Carter and the Nobel Prize, Nancy Pelosi, I mean, who gives a shit? I ask why a McCain supporter is voting for him and I get that? False and half-truth accusations and character assassinations? I don't like it when any party or person does it, but I'm pretty sick, as I'm sure most are, at the pitiful excuse for political dialogue in this country. And most of my problems are illustrated nicely in Pepper's posts. I don't mean to call him or her out; both parties do it and many posters do it. But go back to the Michelle accusation; there's nothing to support that. At all. Why, then, would somebody believe it? Pepper, why do you believe that? It's baseless.
What's sadly ironic is that all that vile rhetoric, the Muslim stuff, Michelle is a racist, Rezko, etc...it's the same kind of political practices that brought down John McCain's incredible campaign in 2000. He's fallen so far it's hard to remember what a breath of fresh air he was then. Now it's 2008, and his supporters engage in it just the same.
I couldn't agree more, but this is what politics has become in this country. This ridiculous hyper-partisanship is destroying this country and we are the one's doing it. The politicians are going along, business as usually, while we fight over insignificant distractions. Anything to take the focus away from what a shit job they are doing and people like Pepper, and many liberals and Democrats on this board, fall for it. They eat that shit up. They sit there and talk about Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, and witchdoctors. For fucks sake our stock market just took a fucking dive today, we just signed over $700 billion of our tax dollars with another $150 billion+ in pork and we are going to talk about Bill Ayers. It is crazy and much like you I'm tired of it. The decisions these voters make affects ME too and the fact that they are focusing on bullshit talking points instead of the issue is disdainful.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I couldn't agree more, but this is what politics has become in this country. This ridiculous hyper-partisanship is destroying this country and we are the one's doing it. The politicians are going along, business as usually, while we fight over insignificant distractions. Anything to take the focus away from what a shit job they are doing and people like Pepper, and many liberals and Democrats on this board, fall for it. They eat that shit up. They sit there and talk about Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, and witchdoctors. For fucks sake our stock market just took a fucking dive today, we just signed over $700 billion of our tax dollars with another $150 billion+ in pork and we are going to talk about Bill Ayers. It is crazy and much like you I'm tired of it. The decisions these voters make affects ME too and the fact that they are focusing on bullshit talking points instead of the issue is disdainful.
The problem I have is that your post is anti-McCain. Since you acknowledged that Obama wouldn't much different regarding spending, I think it's only fair that you include some criticism of his supporters. This is what turns people off from what you're saying because it's biased. As I've said (and I think you agree), the truth is that both parties suck.
I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
-Reagan
The problem I have is that your post is anti-McCain. Since you acknowledged that Obama wouldn't much different regarding spending, I think it's only fair that you include some criticism of his supporters. This is what turns people off from what you're saying because it's biased. As I've said (and I think you agree), the truth is that both parties suck.
I did. I mentioned that stupid witch doctor story about Palin and I specifically said many liberals and Democrats do this. So I have no idea how you can say my post was anti McCain when I didn't even criticize any of the candidates themselves.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
WASHINGTON -- By claiming that Democrat Barack Obama is "palling around with terrorists" and doesn't see the U.S. like other Americans, vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin targeted key goals for a faltering campaign.
And though she may have scored a political hit each time, her attack was unsubstantiated and carried a racially tinged subtext that John McCain himself may come to regret.
First, Palin's attack shows that her energetic debate with rival Joe Biden may be just the beginning, not the end, of a sharpened role in the battle to win the presidency.
Who knows how damaging Palin's words could be but we shall see. The debate is tomorrow and McCain has his favorite environment the town hall.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
By Dana Milbank
CLEARWATER, Fla. -- "Okay, so Florida, you know that you're going to have to hang onto your hats," Sarah Palin told a rally of a few thousand here this morning, "because from now until Election Day it may get kind of rough."
You betcha. And the person dishing out the roughest stuff at the moment is Sarah Palin.
"I was reading my copy of the New York Times the other day," she said.
"Booooo!" replied the crowd.
"I knew you guys would react that way, okay," she continued. "So I was reading the New York Times and I was really interested to read about Barack's friends from Chicago."
It was time to revive the allegation, made over the weekend, that Obama "pals around" with terrorists, in this case Bill Ayers, late of the Weather Underground. Many independent observers say Palin's allegations are a stretch; Obama served on a Chicago charitable board with Ayers, now an education professor, and has condemned his past activities.
"Now it turns out, one of his earliest supporters is a man named Bill Ayers," Palin said.
"Boooo!" said the crowd.
"And, according to the New York Times, he was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that, quote, 'launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and our U.S. Capitol,'" she continued.
"Boooo!" the crowd repeated.
"Kill him!" proposed one man in the audience.
Palin went on to say that "Obama held one of the first meetings of his political career in Bill Ayers's living room, and they've worked together on various projects in Chicago." Here, Palin began to connect the dots. "These are the same guys who think that patriotism is paying higher taxes -- remember that's what Joe Biden had said. "And" -- she paused and sighed -- "I am just so fearful that this is not a man who sees America the way you and I see America, as the greatest force for good in the world. I'm afraid this is someone who sees America as 'imperfect enough' to work with a former domestic terrorist who had targeted his own country."
"Boooo!" said the audience.
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
By Dana Milbank
CLEARWATER, Fla. -- "Okay, so Florida, you know that you're going to have to hang onto your hats," Sarah Palin told a rally of a few thousand here this morning, "because from now until Election Day it may get kind of rough."
You betcha. And the person dishing out the roughest stuff at the moment is Sarah Palin.
"I was reading my copy of the New York Times the other day," she said.
"Booooo!" replied the crowd.
"I knew you guys would react that way, okay," she continued. "So I was reading the New York Times and I was really interested to read about Barack's friends from Chicago."
It was time to revive the allegation, made over the weekend, that Obama "pals around" with terrorists, in this case Bill Ayers, late of the Weather Underground. Many independent observers say Palin's allegations are a stretch; Obama served on a Chicago charitable board with Ayers, now an education professor, and has condemned his past activities.
"Now it turns out, one of his earliest supporters is a man named Bill Ayers," Palin said.
"Boooo!" said the crowd.
"And, according to the New York Times, he was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that, quote, 'launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and our U.S. Capitol,'" she continued.
"Boooo!" the crowd repeated.
"Kill him!" proposed one man in the audience.
Palin went on to say that "Obama held one of the first meetings of his political career in Bill Ayers's living room, and they've worked together on various projects in Chicago." Here, Palin began to connect the dots. "These are the same guys who think that patriotism is paying higher taxes -- remember that's what Joe Biden had said. "And" -- she paused and sighed -- "I am just so fearful that this is not a man who sees America the way you and I see America, as the greatest force for good in the world. I'm afraid this is someone who sees America as 'imperfect enough' to work with a former domestic terrorist who had targeted his own country."
"Boooo!" said the audience.
Man this only the beginning it's going to get ugly. I guess that's why McCain wouldn't look at Obama in the first debate.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
By Dana Milbank
CLEARWATER, Fla. -- "Okay, so Florida, you know that you're going to have to hang onto your hats," Sarah Palin told a rally of a few thousand here this morning, "because from now until Election Day it may get kind of rough."
You betcha. And the person dishing out the roughest stuff at the moment is Sarah Palin.
"I was reading my copy of the New York Times the other day," she said.
"Booooo!" replied the crowd.
"I knew you guys would react that way, okay," she continued. "So I was reading the New York Times and I was really interested to read about Barack's friends from Chicago."
It was time to revive the allegation, made over the weekend, that Obama "pals around" with terrorists, in this case Bill Ayers, late of the Weather Underground. Many independent observers say Palin's allegations are a stretch; Obama served on a Chicago charitable board with Ayers, now an education professor, and has condemned his past activities.
"Now it turns out, one of his earliest supporters is a man named Bill Ayers," Palin said.
"Boooo!" said the crowd.
"And, according to the New York Times, he was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that, quote, 'launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and our U.S. Capitol,'" she continued.
"Boooo!" the crowd repeated.
"Kill him!" proposed one man in the audience.
Palin went on to say that "Obama held one of the first meetings of his political career in Bill Ayers's living room, and they've worked together on various projects in Chicago." Here, Palin began to connect the dots. "These are the same guys who think that patriotism is paying higher taxes -- remember that's what Joe Biden had said. "And" -- she paused and sighed -- "I am just so fearful that this is not a man who sees America the way you and I see America, as the greatest force for good in the world. I'm afraid this is someone who sees America as 'imperfect enough' to work with a former domestic terrorist who had targeted his own country."
"Boooo!" said the audience.
If they're at a Palin rally, they already don't like Obama anyway and have made up their minds. Fuck em.
I can't tell why I want Obama to win anymore. Because I think he's the better candidate out of the two, because I fucking hate Mccain, or because if he does I won't have to look at fucking that cancer of a woman Palin anymore. She can head back to alaska and plan the god damn secession in private and leave us fucking alone.
By Dana Milbank
CLEARWATER, Fla. -- "Okay, so Florida, you know that you're going to have to hang onto your hats," Sarah Palin told a rally of a few thousand here this morning, "because from now until Election Day it may get kind of rough."
You betcha. And the person dishing out the roughest stuff at the moment is Sarah Palin.
"I was reading my copy of the New York Times the other day," she said.
"Booooo!" replied the crowd.
"I knew you guys would react that way, okay," she continued. "So I was reading the New York Times and I was really interested to read about Barack's friends from Chicago."
It was time to revive the allegation, made over the weekend, that Obama "pals around" with terrorists, in this case Bill Ayers, late of the Weather Underground. Many independent observers say Palin's allegations are a stretch; Obama served on a Chicago charitable board with Ayers, now an education professor, and has condemned his past activities.
"Now it turns out, one of his earliest supporters is a man named Bill Ayers," Palin said.
"Boooo!" said the crowd.
"And, according to the New York Times, he was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that, quote, 'launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and our U.S. Capitol,'" she continued.
"Boooo!" the crowd repeated.
"Kill him!" proposed one man in the audience.
Palin went on to say that "Obama held one of the first meetings of his political career in Bill Ayers's living room, and they've worked together on various projects in Chicago." Here, Palin began to connect the dots. "These are the same guys who think that patriotism is paying higher taxes -- remember that's what Joe Biden had said. "And" -- she paused and sighed -- "I am just so fearful that this is not a man who sees America the way you and I see America, as the greatest force for good in the world. I'm afraid this is someone who sees America as 'imperfect enough' to work with a former domestic terrorist who had targeted his own country."
"Boooo!" said the audience.
How cute. Only a week after the Katie Couric interview, and finally Palin can name a newspaper.
The more Palin speaks, the better she helps the Democratic ticket. She is a real piece of nasty work. i think we've just found something that Palin is actually good at. Hate-mongering.
good grief ... it's like everyone who votes for the GOP are given a standard play book and they follow it ... the shit you guys source is unbelievable?? ... is there an independant thought amongst y'all!?? ...
drilling for independence!?? ... that has gotta be the most absurd solution there is out there ... applying the kevin bacon rule to obama and anyone that is remotely out of touch is like everyone's main reason not to vote for the guy ...
Ayers's wife and closest collaborator was Bernardine Dohrn, whose views were so extreme that they seemed to cross a line from ultra-leftism to Satanism.
At a meeting of the Weather Underground, she hailed the murders then recently committed by Charles Manson's demented followers. "Dig it, first they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach!" she exulted, giving a three-fingered salute to signify a fork.
Obama had his first campaign kicked off at this "lady's" house. And many of you called us sheep for following the moron that is W.
Ayers's wife and closest collaborator was Bernardine Dohrn, whose views were so extreme that they seemed to cross a line from ultra-leftism to Satanism.
At a meeting of the Weather Underground, she hailed the murders then recently committed by Charles Manson's demented followers. "Dig it, first they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach!" she exulted, giving a three-fingered salute to signify a fork.
Obama had his first campaign kicked off at this "lady's" house. And many of you called us sheep for following the moron that is W.
ok ... say the absolute worst thing you can think of associated with this relationship ... what do you actually foresee barack obama doing because he is soooo close with these two?
now - compare that with someone who has dinners and fundraisers put on by ceos of companies that build cluster bombs and patriot missles that don't work ... we already know what that resulted in: a stupid war that has resulted in the unnecessary death of hundreds of thousands of people ...
Ayers's wife and closest collaborator was Bernardine Dohrn, whose views were so extreme that they seemed to cross a line from ultra-leftism to Satanism.
At a meeting of the Weather Underground, she hailed the murders then recently committed by Charles Manson's demented followers. "Dig it, first they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach!" she exulted, giving a three-fingered salute to signify a fork.
Obama had his first campaign kicked off at this "lady's" house. And many of you called us sheep for following the moron that is W.
OK, there seems to be this strange assumption that if you defend Obama in this regard and on this issue, than that is automatically a defense of Ayers or Dohrn. So let's make this clear; I have no love for Ayers or Dorhn. They killed innocent people, and no matter how criminal the actions of the U.S. government during that time period, their actions and speech are something I refuse to stand behind. Now, you bring up W. and this is the crux of the argument. I judge the character of W. the same way I judge the character of Obama and McCain, of Biden and Palin and anyone I know. I judge them by what they've said and what they've done, the great things they've achieved and the lessons they learned from their mistakes. What I do not judge them on are the words of the wife of an associate who sits on an education charitable board with them who they've had no contact with for years (words which were, by the way, uttered over forty years ago). I judge the candidates for themselves. I judge W. by the fact that he misled a nation to war, by the fact that he was extremely incompetent with aiding a major American city in a time of crisis, and has continually engaged in a government of deception. You judge Obama by something the wife of someone he knows said forty years ago. You may find them comparable, but I don't, and I don't think many other people would either.
I love this tactic by the right/McCain camp... In Obama's 47 years, they pull out a handful of people who he has a very limited connection with, and portray it like he's some evil person.
I wasted an hour of my life the other night and watched Hannity's "History of Radicalism" Obama hit piece on Fox the other night. Now after airing that, how that network can still claim to be a "news" network is beyond me, but the show was a joke. They would spend 5 minutes talking about all of the evil things that someone has done, then spend 30 seconds "detailing" this person's relationship to Obama, which usually consisted of 10 seconds of a couple of meetings/dinners, a few campaign contributions, and 20 seconds of innuendo.
I guess people don't realize just how many people politicians even on the local level deal with every day. My uncle was a small town mayor, and between the civic boards, business/chamber meetings, constituent meetings, etc., he was busy 5 nights a week sometimes. And that's just a small town mayor. I can't imagine how many countless thousands of people a state or federal legislator deals with, and they pick out five or six and show that as "evidence" of the people he surrounds himself with?
If they're at a Palin rally, they already don't like Obama anyway and have made up their minds. Fuck em.
My thinking too... For McCain to win, he was to grab some independent voters, and this tactic will definitely not do it.
If he went negative and brought this stuff up earlier, it might make sense to go back to it now, because it might still be in the back of some people's mind. But to do it now just make him come off as desperate.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Ayers's wife and closest collaborator was Bernardine Dohrn, whose views were so extreme that they seemed to cross a line from ultra-leftism to Satanism.
At a meeting of the Weather Underground, she hailed the murders then recently committed by Charles Manson's demented followers. "Dig it, first they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach!" she exulted, giving a three-fingered salute to signify a fork.
Obama had his first campaign kicked off at this "lady's" house. And many of you called us sheep for following the moron that is W.
I am certainly not defending Ayers or his wife, nor am I defending Obama's association with them. What I am pointing out is that the Republican's and their supporters should be the last people to talk about associating with unsavory characters. While several people on this board, PEPPER Harmony and acoustic guy to name a few, have criticized the Obama campaign for this and cheered the McCain campaign and the Republicans they either are unaware or ignore the fact that Republicans have aligned themselves with known terrorists. Three Republican politicians in South Florida, all three serve in the House, who have been staunch McCain supporters have ties to Latin American terrorists and have openly supported MEK which is an Iranian terrorist organization listed on our very own State Department's list of terrorist organizations. So if they are going to insist that Bill Ayers is an issue for Obama and the Democrats then the relationship between McCain, these Congressmen and woman and these terrorist individuals should also be brought to light.
It is this type of hyper-partisanship, practiced by both parties and their supporters, that is rotting away this country.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
I'll say this much if McCain DOES NOT look at Obama in the eye tonight he's sending a clear signal to those who may want to continue their hate towards Obama.
Something is TOTALLY wrong with this, as if he's the plague. :(
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Ayers's wife and closest collaborator was Bernardine Dohrn, whose views were so extreme that they seemed to cross a line from ultra-leftism to Satanism.
At a meeting of the Weather Underground, she hailed the murders then recently committed by Charles Manson's demented followers. "Dig it, first they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach!" she exulted, giving a three-fingered salute to signify a fork.
Obama had his first campaign kicked off at this "lady's" house. And many of you called us sheep for following the moron that is W.
damn, I may have to reconsider my vote based on this 39 year old quote....
I've got a 8 year old quote for you: “I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live.”
Comments
I don't agree with Obama's fiscal policy because I believe that we should be reducing spending, extremely reducing spending. With that said Obama's tax policy makes more fiscal sense than McCain's. Neither candidate is going to cut over all spending. They may slash some here and there but they will increase spending in other areas. So it can be said that spending will remain the same or increase under either candidate. With Obama's policy the government will be collecting more revenue to close the deficit gap. Under McCain's policy the government would only be widening the budget deficit and creating more debt. It is irresponsible fiscal policy to collect less than what you spend, I mean isn't that ideology what started this whole sub-prime financial meltdown.
Then why not spend less than what we collect? Why is higher taxes always the automatic response for deficit spending? Cut the fucking spending already! Obama is talking about how bad the economy is and meanwhile he wants to raise taxes on corporations. That makes NO SENSE!! McCain at least has a little bit of a record to show that he would maybe cut spending (and so does Palin). Obama has no record in that area. Odds are against it happening, but I feel McCain is more likely to do it than Obama.
Bottom line, neither party is really concerned with cutting spending. Which is sad, and also why we need new parties.
-Reagan
Neither would cut spending across the board and yes I agree that reducing spending is my preferred choice, as I stated in the beginning of my post, but unfortunately that is not an option available to us from these candidates. So we can either create more debt, causing more inflation or we can try to balance the budget. To me balancing the budget is far better fiscal policy.
McCain did say in the first debate that he would commit to a spending freeze, besides veterans' affairs; I don't think that's going to happen, and I don't think that's anywhere close to the right approach, but he did throw that out in the first debate.
That's not cutting spending, that's freezing it at it's current levels. Also with the financial crisis we are in now, with so many people loosing jobs don't you think that will also equate to more government assistance or should we just let those people fall through the cracks. Point of the matter is that McCain, nor Obama, are going to slash spending drastically or at all. So, unfortunately, if that is the case then we need to consider what would be better, less taxes = larger debt, possible inflation and weakening of the dollar or higher taxes for the top 5% = an attempt of closing the budget gap. Again I don't support either policy. My choice would be to cut spending so we could reduce taxes without creating a budget deficit.
Never mind. You do mention him once. A sterling endorsement.
EDIT: Oh man, this is absolutely ridiculous. You're right; I don't know how to respond to most of this. Michelle Obama is a "bitter, angry, anti-American racist?" Is this Sean Hannity? I want to debate and discuss with people who disagree with me, but how can I do that when you avoid issues and just engage in angry, mindless rhetoric? What's the point. We're talking about voting for the next Presidental contender; who the hell cares about Nancy Pelosi and who Sweden gives the Nobel Prize to? For your talk of Michelle being bitter, this is exactly what your posts above sound like. A bitter partisan who brings no facts to the table, just some strange ax to grind with liberals. So much for a reasonable discussion.
So in short, yes you're right, there's not much to talk about.
get ready for it ... I think it's only going to get worse from here on out ... I'm sure they will be calling him Barack Hussein Obama every chance they get ...
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
Probably on of the best governors that my home state has had in my lifetime, Christine Todd Whitman, wrote a great book about the hijacking of the Republican party. I would recommend this book to anyone who fancies themselves a Republican or Conservative. It discuss exactly what I have just stated about the Republican party loosing it's way.
So yes the Dems are horrible but to state that the Republicans are so much better is a joke and much of what you stated simply isn't true my friend. While Obama is a very far cry from being an even half way decent Presidential candidate he is far from the worst in our lifetime.
I would also like to add that hyper-partisanship, of which I have to say you have shown here, is the true problem in this country. People are so fiercely pitted against one an other because of political party that it impedes our ability to get anything accomplished. As long as we stay divided we will never fix what is broken in Washington. As I have stated before no matter who wins this election, we the people, always loose and until we can put aside our political difference we will never even come close to winning.
Edit: Let me also add since the several times I have mentioned it no one has addressed it, the Republican support for MEK and men like Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada Carilles. These two men walk freely in this country because of the Republican party. These two men where responsible for the bombing of the Cubana Air flight in 1976 that killed over 70 people. These men where involved in the assassination of Orlando Letelier in Dupont Circle in Washington DC. Posada Carilles was responsible for a string of hotel bombings in Cuba that injured scores of people and killed one Italian tourist. These men where responsible for countless assassination attempts and bombings through out Latin American. Carilles snuck into this country illegally, was caught and detained and later released to be a free man. All this even though Venezuala was asking that he be extradited to Venezuela to face charges for crimes committed there, we have had an extradition treaty with Venezuela since 1922. If this not harboring terrorism and the worse part is that the Poasada carilles case occured after 9/11.
Whats funny is, 3 pages into this asinine coversation, no one responded to my extremely pertinant point. How could you link Ayers, a man who is a radical activist and revolutionary in the true sense, to a man who is a career politician a man who believes in change through the system and through his being elected president? How is this fair? Obama's continuing to say "I was 8 years old" is a legimate point, Ayers isnt being judged by what he did this year. he is being judged by what he did in 1969 and 1970.
People should educate themselves before posting. Instead of being angry at Ayers, why arent you all pissed at those crooked cops? They believed ayers and the weathermen were terrorists and criminals. So they tracked them. Wiretapped them. Hunted them. Spied. Infiltrated the groups, FBI members even going as far as growing hair out, and actually becoming hippies in order to gain get information. When COINTELPRO became public, oddly enough this was right around the time when Ayers and his wife turned themselves in. Thats right, he turned himself in. But the judge ruled that the cops and investigators had investigated the whole thing in a criminal and illegal manner.
How people can suggest Obama, as a politician, who believes in capitalism and free markets, and consumerist culture, is somehow ideologically similar to Ayers is beyond me. Obama is everything ayers and his pals were raving AGAINST years ago
I don't mind that people have passionate feelings against against Obama; I understand entirely that many people may feel he's the direct wrong direction for this country. That's fine; let's talk about that. Let's talk economy. Let's talk Iraq. But just because someone's passionate like PEPPER is doesn't allow him/her or anybody else to ignore facts. The fact is that there is nothing reputable that could give Pepper the impression that Michelle Obama is a racist.
There's alot I disagree with in Pepper's most; for example, the Department of Energy, not liberal crazies, are the ones who have said the prices of gas will not be felt for thirty years. And we cannot drill our way into energy independence when we have an extremely limited supply. But let's have that argument, let's lay out those points. Issues like that aren't the point of Pepper's posts; "Michelle is a racist," "Barack Hussein Obama," the bizarre rant about Jimmy Carter and the Nobel Prize, Nancy Pelosi, I mean, who gives a shit? I ask why a McCain supporter is voting for him and I get that? False and half-truth accusations and character assassinations? I don't like it when any party or person does it, but I'm pretty sick, as I'm sure most are, at the pitiful excuse for political dialogue in this country. And most of my problems are illustrated nicely in Pepper's posts. I don't mean to call him or her out; both parties do it and many posters do it. But go back to the Michelle accusation; there's nothing to support that. At all. Why, then, would somebody believe it? Pepper, why do you believe that? It's baseless.
What's sadly ironic is that all that vile rhetoric, the Muslim stuff, Michelle is a racist, Rezko, etc...it's the same kind of political practices that brought down John McCain's incredible campaign in 2000. He's fallen so far it's hard to remember what a breath of fresh air he was then. Now it's 2008, and his supporters engage in it just the same.
I couldn't agree more, but this is what politics has become in this country. This ridiculous hyper-partisanship is destroying this country and we are the one's doing it. The politicians are going along, business as usually, while we fight over insignificant distractions. Anything to take the focus away from what a shit job they are doing and people like Pepper, and many liberals and Democrats on this board, fall for it. They eat that shit up. They sit there and talk about Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, and witchdoctors. For fucks sake our stock market just took a fucking dive today, we just signed over $700 billion of our tax dollars with another $150 billion+ in pork and we are going to talk about Bill Ayers. It is crazy and much like you I'm tired of it. The decisions these voters make affects ME too and the fact that they are focusing on bullshit talking points instead of the issue is disdainful.
The problem I have is that your post is anti-McCain. Since you acknowledged that Obama wouldn't much different regarding spending, I think it's only fair that you include some criticism of his supporters. This is what turns people off from what you're saying because it's biased. As I've said (and I think you agree), the truth is that both parties suck.
-Reagan
I did. I mentioned that stupid witch doctor story about Palin and I specifically said many liberals and Democrats do this. So I have no idea how you can say my post was anti McCain when I didn't even criticize any of the candidates themselves.
Article from The Washington Post today, Analysis: Palin's words may backfire on McCain
Who knows how damaging Palin's words could be but we shall see. The debate is tomorrow and McCain has his favorite environment the town hall.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
By Dana Milbank
CLEARWATER, Fla. -- "Okay, so Florida, you know that you're going to have to hang onto your hats," Sarah Palin told a rally of a few thousand here this morning, "because from now until Election Day it may get kind of rough."
You betcha. And the person dishing out the roughest stuff at the moment is Sarah Palin.
"I was reading my copy of the New York Times the other day," she said.
"Booooo!" replied the crowd.
"I knew you guys would react that way, okay," she continued. "So I was reading the New York Times and I was really interested to read about Barack's friends from Chicago."
It was time to revive the allegation, made over the weekend, that Obama "pals around" with terrorists, in this case Bill Ayers, late of the Weather Underground. Many independent observers say Palin's allegations are a stretch; Obama served on a Chicago charitable board with Ayers, now an education professor, and has condemned his past activities.
"Now it turns out, one of his earliest supporters is a man named Bill Ayers," Palin said.
"Boooo!" said the crowd.
"And, according to the New York Times, he was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that, quote, 'launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and our U.S. Capitol,'" she continued.
"Boooo!" the crowd repeated.
"Kill him!" proposed one man in the audience.
Palin went on to say that "Obama held one of the first meetings of his political career in Bill Ayers's living room, and they've worked together on various projects in Chicago." Here, Palin began to connect the dots. "These are the same guys who think that patriotism is paying higher taxes -- remember that's what Joe Biden had said. "And" -- she paused and sighed -- "I am just so fearful that this is not a man who sees America the way you and I see America, as the greatest force for good in the world. I'm afraid this is someone who sees America as 'imperfect enough' to work with a former domestic terrorist who had targeted his own country."
"Boooo!" said the audience.
San Antonio 04/03, Raleigh 04/03, Dallas 06/03, Gorge 09/05, Vancouver 09/05, LA II 07/06, Tampa 06/08, Chicago II 08/09, ACL 10/09, Vedder solo 1&2 10/12, Dallas 11/13, ACL 10/14 1&2, OKC 2022, ATX 9/23 1&2
Man this only the beginning it's going to get ugly. I guess that's why McCain wouldn't look at Obama in the first debate.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
If they're at a Palin rally, they already don't like Obama anyway and have made up their minds. Fuck em.
I can't tell why I want Obama to win anymore. Because I think he's the better candidate out of the two, because I fucking hate Mccain, or because if he does I won't have to look at fucking that cancer of a woman Palin anymore. She can head back to alaska and plan the god damn secession in private and leave us fucking alone.
Wow. Someone in an audience she is stirring up, who yells out advocating murder? I think she should have addressed that comment.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
How cute. Only a week after the Katie Couric interview, and finally Palin can name a newspaper.
The more Palin speaks, the better she helps the Democratic ticket. She is a real piece of nasty work. i think we've just found something that Palin is actually good at. Hate-mongering.
drilling for independence!?? ... that has gotta be the most absurd solution there is out there ... applying the kevin bacon rule to obama and anyone that is remotely out of touch is like everyone's main reason not to vote for the guy ...
Ayers's wife and closest collaborator was Bernardine Dohrn, whose views were so extreme that they seemed to cross a line from ultra-leftism to Satanism.
At a meeting of the Weather Underground, she hailed the murders then recently committed by Charles Manson's demented followers. "Dig it, first they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach!" she exulted, giving a three-fingered salute to signify a fork.
Obama had his first campaign kicked off at this "lady's" house. And many of you called us sheep for following the moron that is W.
ok ... say the absolute worst thing you can think of associated with this relationship ... what do you actually foresee barack obama doing because he is soooo close with these two?
now - compare that with someone who has dinners and fundraisers put on by ceos of companies that build cluster bombs and patriot missles that don't work ... we already know what that resulted in: a stupid war that has resulted in the unnecessary death of hundreds of thousands of people ...
so ... give it your best ...
OK, there seems to be this strange assumption that if you defend Obama in this regard and on this issue, than that is automatically a defense of Ayers or Dohrn. So let's make this clear; I have no love for Ayers or Dorhn. They killed innocent people, and no matter how criminal the actions of the U.S. government during that time period, their actions and speech are something I refuse to stand behind. Now, you bring up W. and this is the crux of the argument. I judge the character of W. the same way I judge the character of Obama and McCain, of Biden and Palin and anyone I know. I judge them by what they've said and what they've done, the great things they've achieved and the lessons they learned from their mistakes. What I do not judge them on are the words of the wife of an associate who sits on an education charitable board with them who they've had no contact with for years (words which were, by the way, uttered over forty years ago). I judge the candidates for themselves. I judge W. by the fact that he misled a nation to war, by the fact that he was extremely incompetent with aiding a major American city in a time of crisis, and has continually engaged in a government of deception. You judge Obama by something the wife of someone he knows said forty years ago. You may find them comparable, but I don't, and I don't think many other people would either.
I wasted an hour of my life the other night and watched Hannity's "History of Radicalism" Obama hit piece on Fox the other night. Now after airing that, how that network can still claim to be a "news" network is beyond me, but the show was a joke. They would spend 5 minutes talking about all of the evil things that someone has done, then spend 30 seconds "detailing" this person's relationship to Obama, which usually consisted of 10 seconds of a couple of meetings/dinners, a few campaign contributions, and 20 seconds of innuendo.
I guess people don't realize just how many people politicians even on the local level deal with every day. My uncle was a small town mayor, and between the civic boards, business/chamber meetings, constituent meetings, etc., he was busy 5 nights a week sometimes. And that's just a small town mayor. I can't imagine how many countless thousands of people a state or federal legislator deals with, and they pick out five or six and show that as "evidence" of the people he surrounds himself with?
My thinking too... For McCain to win, he was to grab some independent voters, and this tactic will definitely not do it.
If he went negative and brought this stuff up earlier, it might make sense to go back to it now, because it might still be in the back of some people's mind. But to do it now just make him come off as desperate.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I am certainly not defending Ayers or his wife, nor am I defending Obama's association with them. What I am pointing out is that the Republican's and their supporters should be the last people to talk about associating with unsavory characters. While several people on this board, PEPPER Harmony and acoustic guy to name a few, have criticized the Obama campaign for this and cheered the McCain campaign and the Republicans they either are unaware or ignore the fact that Republicans have aligned themselves with known terrorists. Three Republican politicians in South Florida, all three serve in the House, who have been staunch McCain supporters have ties to Latin American terrorists and have openly supported MEK which is an Iranian terrorist organization listed on our very own State Department's list of terrorist organizations. So if they are going to insist that Bill Ayers is an issue for Obama and the Democrats then the relationship between McCain, these Congressmen and woman and these terrorist individuals should also be brought to light.
It is this type of hyper-partisanship, practiced by both parties and their supporters, that is rotting away this country.
Something is TOTALLY wrong with this, as if he's the plague. :(
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
damn, I may have to reconsider my vote based on this 39 year old quote....
I've got a 8 year old quote for you: “I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live.”
gosh, I wonder who said it...
any guesses...?