somebody blew up america

mookie9999

It may have already been saids, but I's didn't know we be owning no ocean!

NMyTree

MLC2006 wrote:

here's your quote........."throughout history the human condition has been different for white man."

so no, *I* didn't group myself with old rich white men that are ruling the world, YOU did. which is extremely racist, imo, because it follows racial stereotypes, that all people of a particular race are the exact same thing with the exact same life laid out for them.

you're right, it's the luck of the draw that we are born where we are and to who we are. so what? what the fuck does that have to do with anything whatsoever? I'm supposed to apologize or to blame my parents for me being born in a wealthy country like the US rather than some 3rd world country? fuck off.

Notice she skipped right over my previous response to him? Notice he doesn't want to address those facts?

Purple Hawk

catefrances wrote:

people people people let's not forget amiri baraka is A POET. he is not painting pretty pictures that's for sure. who knows if he expects us to read his work and take evrything he writes as gospel. but he's got us thinking and engaging with each other. and that's what it's all about.

nothing says poetry like saying...anyone that disagrees with you is a hatemongering racist hillybilly. sounds like a VERRRRRY open-minded "artist" who really wants to discuss the issues and REALLY interested in hearing the other side. sounds to me like he wants to shut down debate by painting the otherside as the epitome of evil...even though evil doesn't exist in his twisted world.

no offense..but it's a bunch of crap and it's embarrassing than anyone would think this is enlightening and getting us to "think."

bullshit like this doesn't have us thinking...we have ourselves thinking.

MLC2006

NMyTree wrote:

Notice he skipped right over my previous response to him? Notice he doesn't want to address those facts?

I always find that the most racist and backward people are the ones who are so self-righteous and "forward thinking". except for skin tone, I have nothing whatsoever in common with the Bushes and Kennedys and Bill Gates of the world. but somehow, I get lumped into the same category like I'm living on easy fucking street or something. I try to work, pay my bills, look out for my family, and because I'm not out fighting against "the man" like Baraka moron, I'm the fucking devil.

catefrances

Purple Hawk wrote:

nothing says poetry like saying...anyone that disagrees with you is a hatemongering racist hillybilly. sounds like a VERRRRRY open-minded "artist" who really wants to discuss the issues and REALLY interested in hearing the other side. sounds to me like he wants to shut down debate by painting the otherside as the epitome of evil...even though evil doesn't exist in his twisted world.

no offense..but it's a bunch of crap and it's embarrassing than anyone would think this is enlightening and getting us to "think."

bullshit like this doesn't have us thinking...we have ourselves thinking.

did you see this bit?:

who knows if he expects us to read his work and take evrything he writes as gospel.

if you're so pissed off about what he said challenge it. just like he's challenging you. for fuck's sake people, the reason i posted it was not because i agree with everything he says in the poem but because i knew the reaction it would get. so thank you all for that, on both sides.

no offense taken hawk. after all, i didn't write the poem.

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

I always find that the most racist and backward people are the ones who are so self-righteous and "forward thinking". except for skin tone, I have nothing whatsoever in common with the Bushes and Kennedys and Bill Gates of the world. but somehow, I get lumped into the same category like I'm living on easy fucking street or something. I try to work, pay my bills, look out for my family, and because I'm not out fighting against "the man" like Baraka moron, I'm the fucking devil.

it appears we have a MAJOR communication breakdown. do not think for one minute i was lumping you in with the bushes or the kennedys or the gates' of this world. that was not my intention. and until you chucked your hissy fit it never occurred to me that anyone on this board would even think that when i said the world is run by rich old white men i was addressing or including them.

where did i say you were living on easy street? where did i even imply it?where did i say ALL white men are the same?

and no i do not think you are the devil.

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

here's your quote........."throughout history the human condition has been different for white man."

so no, *I* didn't group myself with old rich white men that are ruling the world, YOU did. which is extremely racist, imo, because it follows racial stereotypes, that all people of a particular race are the exact same thing with the exact same life laid out for them.

you're right, it's the luck of the draw that we are born where we are and to who we are. so what? what the fuck does that have to do with anything whatsoever? I'm supposed to apologize or to blame my parents for me being born in a wealthy country like the US rather than some 3rd world country? fuck off.

NO, i did not lump you in with rich old white men.
and no of course you're not suppose to apologise for being born into the society you were. how could you? and why would i ask that of you? simple answer is, i wouldn't.

Purple Hawk

catefrances wrote:

did you see this bit?:

who knows if he expects us to read his work and take evrything he writes as gospel.

if you're do pissed off about what he said challenge it. just like he's challenging you. for fuck's sake people, the reason i posted it was not because i agree with everything he says in the poem but because i knew the reaction it would get. so thank you all for that, on both sides.

no offense taken hawk. after all, i didn't write the poem.

he's not challenging anyone...there is no intellecutal honesty in anything he is saying. he is not turning anyone on to a discussion. he is ripping off a bunch of distorted stereotypes to get people who are miserable to say "hell yeah." if you can point to one thing of substance that he actually says...i'll challenge it...but it's pointless to challenge vague plattitudes.

MLC2006

catefrances wrote:

it appears we have a MAJOR communication breakdown. do not think for one minute i was lumping you in with the bushes or the kennedys or the gates' of this world. that was not my intention. and until you chucked your hissy fit it never occurred to me that anyone on this board would even think that when i said the world is run by rich old white men i was addressing or including them.

where did i say you were living on easy street? where did i even imply it?where did i say ALL white men are the same?

and no i do not think you are the devil.

and again, here is your quote.............."throughout history the human condition has been different for white man."

so since I AM a "white man", I am to assume by your quote that my "human condition" has been much better than people of other races. so I would like you to explain that quote.

if you meant to say "old rich white men", then that is what you should've said instead of lumping all "white men" together. and even if you said "old rich white men", I would have to point out that some of the most powerful people in the world are Arabs and black Africans, so it is NOT just "old rich white men" that are ruling the world.

MLC2006

Purple Hawk wrote:

he's not challenging anyone...there is no intellecutal honesty in anything he is saying. he is not turning anyone on to a discussion. he is ripping off a bunch of distorted stereotypes to get people who are miserable to say "hell yeah." if you can point to one thing of substance that he actually says...i'll challenge it...but it's pointless to challenge vague plattitudes.

that's the thing, I think to attempt to "challenge" it would be a validation of it, and I choose not to. it lacks any kind of merit, so rather than validate it, I'd just call the author what he is....an ignorant racist. and though I'm no poetry expert, I don't see who this could even be viewed as "art". this is just stream of conscious from a bitter old man. if so many people didn't view him as a "genius" or if he didn't come from a time when this avant garde crap was looked on so highly, he would be viewed as nothing more than one of those demented street preachers roaming around NYC and California.

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

and again, here is your quote.............."throughout history the human condition has been different for white man."

so since I AM a "white man", I am to assume by your quote that my "human condition" has been much better than people of other races. so I would like you to explain that quote.

if you meant to say "old rich white men", then that is what you should've said instead of lumping all "white men" together. and even if you said "old rich white men", I would have to point out that some of the most powerful people in the world are Arabs and black Africans, so it is NOT just "old rich white men" that are ruling the world.

we are going to remain at an impasse if you continue to exclude arabs as being 'white'. or at least the same 'race' as whites.


have you even any idea how integral the united states economy is to the world's economy. have you any idea what happens when wall street takes a dive? do you realise how entwined your economy is to your foreign policy? are you aware that your military is used to maintain the united states' primacy in the world's economy?
who is your president again?
who is the managing director of the world bank?
who is the managing director of the IMF?
who is the director general of the WTO?

MLC2006

catefrances wrote:

we are going to remain at an impasse if you continue to exclude arabs as being 'white'. or at least the same 'race' as whites.


have you even any idea how integral the united states economy is to the world's economy. have you any idea what happens when wall street takes a dive? do you realise how entwined your economy is to your foreign policy? are you aware that your military is used to maintain the united states' primacy in the world's economy?
who is your president again?
who is the managing director of the world bank?
who is the managing director of the IMF?
who is the director general of the WTO?

Arabs AREN'T white, don't know where you came up with that. "whites", as in "white Americans", for the most part came from Europe. also, there are a lot of powerful people in China, Japan, and South America. are these people "white" as well?

I have a good idea how the US economy is linked to the world economy and how it affects foreign policy and how/why the military is used blah blah blah. why do you ask? what does this have to do with the discussion at hand? can you quote me anywhere where I said the US government is above reproach when it comes to such things? no. my point is.....people like Bush for instance, are assholes who are hellbent on maintaining their own power at any cost. ok, that's a given. but what exactly does that have to do with him being "white"???? there are just as many "white" people who are deadass broke and living in the gutter or busting their ass to make a living, and there are just as many "non-white" assholes hellbent on destruction. so in my eyes, race doesn't have anything to do with the level of assholedom in the world.

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

Arabs AREN'T white, don't know where you came up with that. "whites", as in "white Americans", for the most part came from Europe. also, there are a lot of powerful people in China, Japan, and South America. are these people "white" as well?

I have a good idea how the US economy is linked to the world economy and how it affects foreign policy and how/why the military is used blah blah blah. why do you ask? what does this have to do with the discussion at hand? can you quote me anywhere where I said the US government is above reproach when it comes to such things? no. my point is.....people like Bush for instance, are assholes who are hellbent on maintaining their own power at any cost. ok, that's a given. but what exactly does that have to do with him being "white"???? there are just as many "white" people who are deadass broke and living in the gutter or busting their ass to make a living, and there are just as many "non-white" assholes hellbent on destruction. so in my eyes, race doesn't have anything to do with the level of assholedom in the world.

well what are arabs if not white?

and yes non indigenous south americans are white. what else would they be?

MLC2006

catefrances wrote:

well what are arabs if not white?

and yes non indigenous south americans are white. what else would they be?

Arabs are Arabs. they are middle eastern descent. how do you come about the assumption that they are "white"? hell, they don't even LOOK white.

I am not a South American historian, but I believe that most of the people there are a mixture of not only Europeans, but of the indigenous people as well. so you could argue one way or another, but they aren't "white" like the "white" people who came from Europe and now live in North America. by that logic, you'd have to say that American born blacks are also "white".

Purple Hawk

MLC2006 wrote:

that's the thing, I think to attempt to "challenge" it would be a validation of it, and I choose not to. it lacks any kind of merit, so rather than validate it, I'd just call the author what he is....an ignorant racist. and though I'm no poetry expert, I don't see who this could even be viewed as "art". this is just stream of conscious from a bitter old man. if so many people didn't view him as a "genius" or if he didn't come from a time when this avant garde crap was looked on so highly, he would be viewed as nothing more than one of those demented street preachers roaming around NYC and California.

if you notice from the left...it's like pulling teeth to get their actual beliefs....b/c they know they can't win.

the poem is based on stereotypical plattitudes and that's supposed to be intellectual...

ok...how about explicitly expanding on and defending any one insinuation in that "poem" and let's debate it.

i'm no poet...but i'll tell you where i stand, and i'll defend it...not too good at disguising it with vagueries.

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

Arabs are Arabs. they are middle eastern descent. how do you come about the assumption that they are "white"? hell, they don't even LOOK white.

I am not a South American historian, but I believe that most of the people there are a mixture of not only Europeans, but of the indigenous people as well. so you could argue one way or another, but they aren't "white" like the "white" people who came from Europe and now live in North America. by that logic, you'd have to say that American born blacks are also "white".

so by white, you actually mean european, is that it?

and no there is no logic in calling black americans white. your comment is not comparable in this instance.

but i am curious as to what you call tiger woods or malcom x or bob marley.

NMyTree

catefrances wrote:

well what are arabs if not white?

and yes non indigenous south americans are white. what else would they be?

What are you talking about? Middle Easterners are not white people. They more often refered to as brown-skinned people. But they are not white. Neither are South Americans.

Where do you get these silly notions?

White people are....Irish, German, British, Scotish, French, German, Swiss, Finns, Sweedes, French-Canadians, Russians, Slovs, Italians...just to name a few.

NMyTree

catefrances wrote:

....and no there is no logic in calling black americans white. your comment is not comparable in this instance..

Uh, there is absolutely no logic whatsoever in calling middle easterners (or Arabs) and South Americans....White People. No logic at all. yet, you've convinced yourself they are white and that your logic (which you have failed to explain) is accurate.

Much like your list, which I dressed in post # 74; you are once again absolutely inaccurate and completely off base.

MLC2006

catefrances wrote:

so by white, you actually mean european, is that it?

and no there is no logic in calling black americans white. your comment is not comparable in this instance.

but i am curious as to what you call tiger woods or malcom x or bob marley.

you DO realize that there are more than just "white" and "black" people earth, right?

what do I call those people by their race? well, I believe Bob Marley was Jamaican, which is not a race, but I would call him "black". I would also call Malcolm X black, as I imagine both his parents were black. Tiger Woods is bi-racial, and that is how I see him. though I think there is some legal standard that says if one parent is black, then the "legal" status is black.

the point of this is lost on me. if we're talking about what race people are, I still don't know how you conclude that middle eastern people are "white". though "white" is a generic term, they aren't even generally close to meeting the generic standard for "white". they're closer to being Asian than white. and while I see you could make an argument for South Americans being white, I still say they aren't because their ancestors were native to that land.

I could be wrong, but I believe "Asian" is considered a race. and therefore, middle easterners would be considered "Asian", not "white.

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

Arabs are Arabs. they are middle eastern descent. how do you come about the assumption that they are "white"? hell, they don't even LOOK white.

they don't LOOK white? what do white people LOOK like exactly? how white is white? do we start measuring the width of people's nose bridges to determine whiteness?

well you know it's entirely possible that more of us have middle eastern ancestors that realise it. would that make us less white?