So we should all obey authority unquestioningly and if we don't and we end up in a situation because of it we've got no one to blame but ourselves?????
no. but we should should not shoot first and ask questions later.
However, those dead men could speak. As they would say on I think it's CSI, if those men had bullet wounds in the back could make a difference. It may show that those men were running from an armed man and NOT posing a threat.
Peace
CSI has a tricky habit of proving that even though it looks like someone was shot in the back that it's not always the case.
Yeah, but who says that wasn't his concern? Are we just all ageeing he couldn't possibly have been concerned with his neighbours because he didn't mention it to the operator?
With regard to coming into the situation armed won't it depend on his intent?
Perhaps he did intend to use the weapon, but he may not have intended to shoot DEAD the burglars and even supposing he did, can we know for certain that he was aware that the family weren't home? Perhaps his rationale was that the neighbours were already inside dead?
well jeanie if his neighbours were his primary concern why did he not mention them? if one did not in fact know whether one's neighbours were home or not would one not err on the side of caution and assume that they were and mention them? if he thought his neighbours were already dead(even though they werent home) then surely he would have mentioned that to the operator, dont you think?
his intent was to stop the burglars. it was his intent to use his weapon to accomplish this. he did that and in doing so killed them.
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CSI has a tricky habit of proving that even though it looks like someone was shot in the back that it's not always the case.
We shall see what the autopsy reports will show. BTW Sean Taylor appears to be responsive to doctors commands, however he has a long log way to go. He flatlined twice during surgery.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
However, those dead men could speak. As they would say on I think it's CSI, if those men had bullet wounds in the back could make a difference. It may show that those men were running from an armed man and NOT posing a threat.
Peace
Nothing worse than a dead man, than a undead man that you tried to make dead, but instead severely pissed off in the process! I'd be more than a bit worried and sleepless if I was this guy.
He might even end up having to pay money to this guy if he shot up his spine and he can't work. Forget about if he got paralyzed from it....$ouch$.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
So we should all obey authority unquestioningly and if we don't and we end up in a situation because of it we've got no one to blame but ourselves?????
where did i say that? and you know me better than that jeanie. this man knew what he was capable of before he set foot outside his house. he knew he had the capacity to shoot these men to stop them. therefore knowing that, he should have stayed inside as he was told to do by the emergency operator, who i am sure has been in this situation more times than this man has had to confront burglars.
and yes if someone tells us not to do something and we do it, who else is to blame for our actions but ourselves?
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Nothing worse than a dead man, than a undead man that you tried to make dead, but instead severely pissed off in the process! I'd be more than a bit worried and sleepless if I was this guy.
He might even end up having to pay money to this guy if he shot up his spine and he can't work. Forget about if he got paralyzed from it....$ouch$.
Way too many wrongs in the decision Mr. Horn made in confronting these men. He clearly could have made the choice to observe the situation from HIS house. He could have missed hit someone else or like you said paralyzed one or both of them.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Roland, couldn't you just supply your name and address for the court but not actually have to say it in the presence of the court?
I had a similar problem as a witness once and was threatened so I simply asked that I be able to supply my full name and address to the judge but not actually have to say it in the court where the guy and his cronies could hear it.
Hindsight...I know argh. Honestly though how utterly irresponsible of them to even put me in that position. My safety for a few extra seconds of court time. I swear...sooo stupid,. #%##^!!!! Maddening when I think about how little I was thought of by the legal system at the time,
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Way too many wrongs in the decision Mr. Horn made in confronting these men. He clearly could have made the choice to observe the situation from HIS house. He could have missed hit someone else or like you said paralyzed one or both of them.
Peace
Speakng of making a decision to get involved. Saturday night coming home from Thanksgiving traveling on busy 55 mph New York Ave in DC. I saw a guy in the inner lane of the 3 lane ave and I slowed and he stumbles into my middle lane and lays down in the middle of my lane 10 ft in front of my truck. If I left the scene he would have been easily been run over.
People were honking me but I put on my hazards got out and accessed the situation. He appeared to be unconscious and unresponsive but actually he was intoxicated. He spoke only Spanish, cars are whizing by and I told he's GOT get out of the street. Well, I got him to his feet then carefully walked him to the sidewalk where he collapsed.
I looked around for some help and there was a cop in his cruiser who appeared to be watching the whole thing. I hailed over and told him the situation and he said thanks he appreciated my assistance and I left.
Now I got involved mainly cause he was going to be killed if I hadn't moved him. Also, I had nowhere to go on that busy street. Mr. Horn got involved it appears cause he had a gun and maybe felt he had the upper hand and intended to make a difference with that weapon.
Would he have gotten involved had he NOT had a gun???
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
precisely. horn didn't see anyone in imminent danger. he went galloping in john wayne style to a situation he knew nothing of, and murdered 2 people. and that's wrong. period.
i'm just pointing out that a law student would clearly know the difference between burglery and home invasion. it's constantly on the news so i can't believe someone else didn't pick up on it. but a law student now knowing basic law???????????
Now let's take a look at the case of Washington Redskins player Sean Taylor. It appears in this case this was a home invasion, someone broke in Sean heard it, grabbed a machete and confronted the intruder.
Shot fired he appears to get hit in the head and is in grave condition at the moment. This is what's being reported on the DC news stations. Here's the story on AOL @ Sean Taylor.
Maybe if Mr. Horn was next door his use of deadly force could have been used in this Sean Taylor case.
Peace
there was an incident in phoenix last monday where a mexican knocked on the door of an older man; forced his way in and killed the man. his 10 year old granddaughter was in the home; but locked herself in a closet when she heard the noise. the local fox station reported that there were no clues other than someone seeing a hispanic male walking to the door.
if horn had been his neighbour; he would have stopped a killer from getting away; to live to kill another day.
a whole bunch of things he should have done? he called 911 and they told him police were on the way. im tired of people disrespecting my life by disobeying traffic laws. im gonna shoot the next guy who cuts me off, cos he might cause an accident next time he does it and i might be saving someone's life. i mean, i cant be sure, but you dont know if ive been in an accident before or if there has been a spate of deadly accidents from reckless driving lately, so you can't judge my actions.
is this the way a normal person rationalizes things? if the dog wouldn't have stopped to take a shite he would've caught the rabbit? is this why there's more traffic related shootings in states with strict gun laws than in states with liberal gun laws? is this east coast mentality? especially for a wanna-be lawyer. horn didn't shoot anyone over a traffic incident even though he clearly had a gun. but why are we talking about traffic incidents in the first place? sounds like someone is backed into a corner and doesn't know what to say. so change the subject.
he fired 3 shots into each i believe. hardly a warning. i believe he also said over the phone he was going to kill them before he'd let them get away.
i dont know whether or not he's trying to justify it, but i dont care. he was told to let the police handle it, he decided to act as judge and jury himself, and he can suffer the consequences. but then, im just a mushy east-coast liberal. i lack the balls of steel sported by real american heroes like john wayne, horn, and onelongsong.
the report says he fired 3 shots. if he shot each 3 times; were they lined up so he could shoot through the first one into the second? way to keep the facts straight counsler.
clearly you don't have the balls. in fact; i'd expect you to hide in a closet.
good neighbours look after their neighbours. i've lived in a few places and my neighbours always looked after our house when we weren't home. they watched over the kids when we weren't about. they watched over our vehicles when we couldn't see them. people are suppose to take care of eachother. horn should have kept them in the house. forget what some dizzy opperator just out of high school told him. she was advising him for his own saftey; but apparently; he could take care of himself. my neighbours here and elsewhere are like family. they attend family functions and i attend theirs. for a while; i lived next door to my sister. so horns relationship with his neighbours will effect a jury IF he's charged. so far he hasn't been. in fact; fellow texans may consider him a hero for killing 2 criminals. we don't know if the criminals had a weapon. a 911 call wouldn't have that information. when you see a weapon you shoot; you don't talk about it.
i think you lack the balls to care about others (your words); and get involved to help others; and to consider your fellow man your brother; but most of all, to take a stand against crime. horn begged the opperator to tell the police to hurry up. if he was itching to shoot someone; he never would have called 911.
if mushy east coast liberals rely on the police; crime will thrive which explains the high crime rate there. i've yet to see a crime committed in front of the police. their job is clean-up. they show up afterwards and decide if the victims need EMT or the coroner. out west we do things differently. if something should happen; my life is in my neighbours hands and his in mine. police response time is 3 to 4 hours. that's if they even find us. so yes; it takes balls to stand up and do the right thing. you have to accept that you may be shot yourself. you must also take responsability for your actions. horn not being charged makes me think the perps had a weapon(s). if they were unarmed and he shot them in the back; he would've been arrested on the spot. we clearly don't have all the facts. and without all the facts; we shouldn't judge him. without knowing who he shot; we shouldn't judge him.
killing isn't wrong; murder is.
i'm just pointing out that a law student would clearly know the difference between burglery and home invasion. it's constantly on the news so i can't believe someone else didn't pick up on it. but a law student now knowing basic law???????????
not on the news here. i don't know texas law and you acted like it didnt make a difference which it was. you never mentioned any distinction, just simply said the guy got what he deserved and horn was justified in killing him with no mention as to whether or not it was home invasion or burglary... in fact, the initial disagreement was sparked by your contention that lethal force in defense of property, even a third party's property, was justified. now, 150 posts in this thread later, you're suddenly backing down becos it's clear you're wrong and suddenly i misinterpreted you and you were just playing devil's advocate. how convenient.
how about a supposed attorney who is still utterly incapable of giving a relevant case citation for a case establishing a constitutional right to property?
is this the way a normal person rationalizes things? if the dog wouldn't have stopped to take a shite he would've caught the rabbit? is this why there's more traffic related shootings in states with strict gun laws than in states with liberal gun laws? is this east coast mentality? especially for a wanna-be lawyer. horn didn't shoot anyone over a traffic incident even though he clearly had a gun. but why are we talking about traffic incidents in the first place? sounds like someone is backed into a corner and doesn't know what to say. so change the subject.
it's called a slippery slope. at what point is lethal force no longer acceptable? you've said it's fine to gun someone down if you THINK they were robbing someone else's house. what laws do you have to think they were breaking in order to shoot them? domestic violence? rape? burglary? traffic violations? drug use? where do you stop it?
the report says he fired 3 shots. if he shot each 3 times; were they lined up so he could shoot through the first one into the second? way to keep the facts straight counsler.
my bad. must have been all your talk of double tapping. i got confused. he fired 3. YOU would have fired 3 apiece.
good neighbours look after their neighbours. i've lived in a few places and my neighbours always looked after our house when we weren't home. they watched over the kids when we weren't about. they watched over our vehicles when we couldn't see them. people are suppose to take care of eachother. horn should have kept them in the house. forget what some dizzy opperator just out of high school told him. she was advising him for his own saftey; but apparently; he could take care of himself. my neighbours here and elsewhere are like family. they attend family functions and i attend theirs. for a while; i lived next door to my sister. so horns relationship with his neighbours will effect a jury IF he's charged. so far he hasn't been. in fact; fellow texans may consider him a hero for killing 2 criminals. we don't know if the criminals had a weapon. a 911 call wouldn't have that information. when you see a weapon you shoot; you don't talk about it.
i think you lack the balls to care about others (your words); and get involved to help others; and to consider your fellow man your brother; but most of all, to take a stand against crime. horn begged the opperator to tell the police to hurry up. if he was itching to shoot someone; he never would have called 911.
if mushy east coast liberals rely on the police; crime will thrive which explains the high crime rate there. i've yet to see a crime committed in front of the police. their job is clean-up. they show up afterwards and decide if the victims need EMT or the coroner. out west we do things differently. if something should happen; my life is in my neighbours hands and his in mine. police response time is 3 to 4 hours. that's if they even find us. so yes; it takes balls to stand up and do the right thing. you have to accept that you may be shot yourself. you must also take responsability for your actions. horn not being charged makes me think the perps had a weapon(s). if they were unarmed and he shot them in the back; he would've been arrested on the spot. we clearly don't have all the facts. and without all the facts; we shouldn't judge him. without knowing who he shot; we shouldn't judge him.
killing isn't wrong; murder is.
im sniffling. really, i am. i'd start the slow clap if you could hear it. i'd like to live inside the waltons too. that would be sweet.
we will see what happens to horn. i've little hope though. this is texas we're talking about after all. we should have let them stay their own country.
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there was an incident in phoenix last monday where a mexican knocked on the door of an older man; forced his way in and killed the man. his 10 year old granddaughter was in the home; but locked herself in a closet when she heard the noise. the local fox station reported that there were no clues other than someone seeing a hispanic male walking to the door.
if horn had been his neighbour; he would have stopped a killer from getting away; to live to kill another day.
I hope you don't think I was for ALL Mr. Horn did in this incident. I totally hope he will face some punishment for this shooting.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
not on the news here. i don't know texas law and you acted like it didnt make a difference which it was. you never mentioned any distinction, just simply said the guy got what he deserved and horn was justified in killing him with no mention as to whether or not it was home invasion or burglary... in fact, the initial disagreement was sparked by your contention that lethal force in defense of property, even a third party's property, was justified. now, 150 posts in this thread later, you're suddenly backing down becos it's clear you're wrong and suddenly i misinterpreted you and you were just playing devil's advocate. how convenient.
how about a supposed attorney who is still utterly incapable of giving a relevant case citation for a case establishing a constitutional right to property?
aahhh little man. i told you i wouldn't do your research for you. i learned the difference when i was 17 and a friend got caught breaking into houses in northbrook illinois. he got 2 counts of burglery and 1 count home invasion which carries a 15 year sentence. i wanted to see how far you'd carry on.
if someone tries to rob you with a gun; can you shoot them? yes. alberry v us proves that in one way because the man was breaking into the home to STEAL PROPERTY. the same as the man using a gun to steal your property. or the many instances where an armed person tried to carjack someoone and the car owner killed that person protecting his PROPERTY. i know phoenix has several cases if you wish to look them up. as i said many times; i changed careers after my surgery. if you'd like to pay me to do research; PM me.
I hope you don't think I was for ALL Mr. Horn did in this incident. I totally hope he will face some punishment for this shooting.
Peace
not at all. in fact; i posted a texas law where it's illegal to shoot someone in the back. i said that even if the new home invasion law stuck; he'll probably be charged with shooting them in the back (as everyone seems to contend that they ran). i believe i posted that he'd be charged in the first 2 pages. someone else kept chattering on and i wanted to see how much he really knew since he didn't read my earlier posts.
i think he will be punished but not to the satisfaction of this board. i suspect his defence will be that the legislators "lit the fuse" by enacting this law without clarification. and the 911 opperator for not knowing the law better. and that he's close to his neighbours and feared for them. a nice senareo can be painted to a jury. a jury who wanted the law in the first place. i say he gets probation if he has good counsel.
aahhh little man. i told you i wouldn't do your research for you. i learned the difference when i was 17 and a friend got caught breaking into houses in northbrook illinois. he got 2 counts of burglery and 1 count home invasion which carries a 15 year sentence. i wanted to see how far you'd carry on.
if someone tries to rob you with a gun; can you shoot them? yes. alberry v us proves that in one way because the man was breaking into the home to STEAL PROPERTY. the same as the man using a gun to steal your property. or the many instances where an armed person tried to carjack someoone and the car owner killed that person protecting his PROPERTY. i know phoenix has several cases if you wish to look them up. as i said many times; i changed careers after my surgery. if you'd like to pay me to do research; PM me.
someone pointing a gun at you is self defense. your life is in danger. thus, you are justified to shoot an armed carjacker regardless of his intentions becos your life is in danger. alberry was, according to you, a home invasion where someone broke into their house. a different scenario from shooting someone you see coming out of an empty house.
im not asking you to do research for me. im asking you to write the citation down from your vaunted legal textbook on the supreme court. are there no citations? becos i cannot find a legal opinion on alberry on any legit legal research service out there. my time is also valuable. you're the one making the contentions, im asking for your sources. i don't care enough to research it myself. im also just partly curious... you retired from practice eh? did you forget what a case citation looks like when you did? i'd love to even see whether or not you're capable or typing one or have any clue what form they take. cos you always get skittish when i ask for any sort of proof of your legal training. no cases, no firms, no law schools, no rudimentary legal skills. gimme something man. something that shows more knowledge than can be gained from any redneck's copy of "supreme court gun cases."
but in the end, you're right. the texas law in the other thread says this is ok. that's fucked up.
...so horns relationship with his neighbours will effect a jury IF he's charged.
... horn begged the opperator to tell the police to hurry up. if he was itching to shoot someone; he never would have called 911.
First, he said in the call he didn't know his neighbors so that should work out just fine for him. Second, just by begging for the police to show up does not prove that he was not itching to shoot someone. He said he was not going to let them get away. And as far as the facts not being released about if the perps had weapons or not, any state that is ok with a black person being dragged behind a truck until they are decapitated, is probably ok with a couple of black guys being shot in broad daylight for petty theft. Who knows? Maybe the authorities are looking for some guns to plant on the bastards.
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First, he said in the call he didn't know his neighbors so that should work out just fine for him. Second, just by begging for the police to show up does not prove that he was not itching to shoot someone. He said he was not going to let them get away. And as far as the facts not being released about if the perps had weapons or not, any state that is ok with a black person being dragged behind a truck until they are decapitated, is probably ok with a couple of black guys being shot in broad daylight for petty theft. Who knows? Maybe the authorities are looking for some guns to plant on the bastards.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Mr. Horn is white and the 2 burglars are black? IF that's the case and this being Texas, there's NOWAY anything going to happen to Horn. Maybe he'll get a big pat on the back and a big thank from the community.
That's the way of America these days, what would really would've been interesting is if the roles were reversed how would the community have taken on this case???
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
someone pointing a gun at you is self defense. your life is in danger. thus, you are justified to shoot an armed carjacker regardless of his intentions becos your life is in danger. alberry was, according to you, a home invasion where someone broke into their house. a different scenario from shooting someone you see coming out of an empty house.
im not asking you to do research for me. im asking you to write the citation down from your vaunted legal textbook on the supreme court. are there no citations? becos i cannot find a legal opinion on alberry on any legit legal research service out there. my time is also valuable. you're the one making the contentions, im asking for your sources. i don't care enough to research it myself. im also just partly curious... you retired from practice eh? did you forget what a case citation looks like when you did? i'd love to even see whether or not you're capable or typing one or have any clue what form they take. cos you always get skittish when i ask for any sort of proof of your legal training. no cases, no firms, no law schools, no rudimentary legal skills. gimme something man. something that shows more knowledge than can be gained from any redneck's copy of "supreme court gun cases."
but in the end, you're right. the texas law in the other thread says this is ok. that's fucked up.
most everyone on this board knows i'm packed and ready to move to my nevada ranch. i'm not opening boxes to find 20+ year old crap from a career i had to give up in 1986; plus; have no interest in. the at least dozen people i know personally (and also have my CD); on this board can confirm this but it isn't necessary. i know my rights in the states i own peoperty in. that's all i care about. if this interests you so much; do some research.
if you want advice; you just missed it. always keep the other side thinking that they're winning. then smash them at the end. knowing the difference between burglery and home invasion settled the matter. i'll check the other thread but in this thread; with the information given; it was not home invasion and the law didn't apply.
First, he said in the call he didn't know his neighbors so that should work out just fine for him. Second, just by begging for the police to show up does not prove that he was not itching to shoot someone. He said he was not going to let them get away. And as far as the facts not being released about if the perps had weapons or not, any state that is ok with a black person being dragged behind a truck until they are decapitated, is probably ok with a couple of black guys being shot in broad daylight for petty theft. Who knows? Maybe the authorities are looking for some guns to plant on the bastards.
then horn is a bloody idiot. if he didn't know his neighbours; how could he know he wasn't about to shoot his neighbours. if i were itching to shoot someone; i'd have a throwaway piece (stolen gun) with me to plant on them.
then horn is a bloody idiot. if he didn't know his neighbours; how could he know he wasn't about to shoot his neighbours. if i were itching to shoot someone; i'd have a throwaway piece (stolen gun) with me to plant on them.
i can not begin to tell you what i see as wrong in that last sentence. the sentiment disappoints me greatly.
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Hindsight...I know argh. Honestly though how utterly irresponsible of them to even put me in that position. My safety for a few extra seconds of court time. I swear...sooo stupid,. #%##^!!!! Maddening when I think about how little I was thought of by the legal system at the time,
Yeah, it was incredibly irresponsible of them to put you in that situation Roland. And it makes such a mess of your life. I had to move house and put a general warning amongst my family not to tell where I was if someone should ring asking questions. I'm related to all the people in the phone book with my surname so it wouldn't have been too hard to track me down if he'd tried. I don't think he did, but he sure did threaten to. I was very lucky that the senior detective in the case I was witness to knew of the offender and was aware that he'd been making threats and when I expressed my concern about giving my personal details to all in the court he arranged for me to just lodge them for the judge. It's really crappy that you weren't afforded the same.
Yeah, it was incredibly irresponsible of them to put you in that situation Roland. And it makes such a mess of your life. I had to move house and put a general warning amongst my family not to tell where I was if someone should ring asking questions. I'm related to all the people in the phone book with my surname so it wouldn't have been too hard to track me down if he'd tried. I don't think he did, but he sure did threaten to. I was very lucky that the senior detective in the case I was witness to knew of the offender and was aware that he'd been making threats and when I expressed my concern about giving my personal details to all in the court he arranged for me to just lodge them for the judge. It's really crappy that you weren't afforded the same.
in the us; the accused has a right to face their accuser. it works most of the time; and when it doesn't; we have the witness protection program. which is basically what you two did; except you didn't get a new identy.
i think this is another reason FOR vigilante justice. the criminal in both your cases ruined your life or at least; put you in fear and made you do things you wouldn't have done.
most everyone on this board knows i'm packed and ready to move to my nevada ranch. i'm not opening boxes to find 20+ year old crap from a career i had to give up in 1986; plus; have no interest in. the at least dozen people i know personally (and also have my CD); on this board can confirm this but it isn't necessary. i know my rights in the states i own peoperty in. that's all i care about. if this interests you so much; do some research.
if you want advice; you just missed it. always keep the other side thinking that they're winning. then smash them at the end. knowing the difference between burglery and home invasion settled the matter. i'll check the other thread but in this thread; with the information given; it was not home invasion and the law didn't apply.
funny how we both say we dont care enough to do research, but we've filled an ungodly number of pages here debating it
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no. but i've got a pretty reasonable grasp of the circumstances and see nothing in these events to indicate any of the things you are imagining.
no. but we should should not shoot first and ask questions later.
CSI has a tricky habit of proving that even though it looks like someone was shot in the back that it's not always the case.
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well jeanie if his neighbours were his primary concern why did he not mention them? if one did not in fact know whether one's neighbours were home or not would one not err on the side of caution and assume that they were and mention them? if he thought his neighbours were already dead(even though they werent home) then surely he would have mentioned that to the operator, dont you think?
his intent was to stop the burglars. it was his intent to use his weapon to accomplish this. he did that and in doing so killed them.
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We shall see what the autopsy reports will show. BTW Sean Taylor appears to be responsive to doctors commands, however he has a long log way to go. He flatlined twice during surgery.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Nothing worse than a dead man, than a undead man that you tried to make dead, but instead severely pissed off in the process! I'd be more than a bit worried and sleepless if I was this guy.
He might even end up having to pay money to this guy if he shot up his spine and he can't work. Forget about if he got paralyzed from it....$ouch$.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
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where did i say that? and you know me better than that jeanie. this man knew what he was capable of before he set foot outside his house. he knew he had the capacity to shoot these men to stop them. therefore knowing that, he should have stayed inside as he was told to do by the emergency operator, who i am sure has been in this situation more times than this man has had to confront burglars.
and yes if someone tells us not to do something and we do it, who else is to blame for our actions but ourselves?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Way too many wrongs in the decision Mr. Horn made in confronting these men. He clearly could have made the choice to observe the situation from HIS house. He could have missed hit someone else or like you said paralyzed one or both of them.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Hindsight...I know argh. Honestly though how utterly irresponsible of them to even put me in that position. My safety for a few extra seconds of court time. I swear...sooo stupid,. #%##^!!!! Maddening when I think about how little I was thought of by the legal system at the time,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
(")_(")
Speakng of making a decision to get involved. Saturday night coming home from Thanksgiving traveling on busy 55 mph New York Ave in DC. I saw a guy in the inner lane of the 3 lane ave and I slowed and he stumbles into my middle lane and lays down in the middle of my lane 10 ft in front of my truck. If I left the scene he would have been easily been run over.
People were honking me but I put on my hazards got out and accessed the situation. He appeared to be unconscious and unresponsive but actually he was intoxicated. He spoke only Spanish, cars are whizing by and I told he's GOT get out of the street. Well, I got him to his feet then carefully walked him to the sidewalk where he collapsed.
I looked around for some help and there was a cop in his cruiser who appeared to be watching the whole thing. I hailed over and told him the situation and he said thanks he appreciated my assistance and I left.
Now I got involved mainly cause he was going to be killed if I hadn't moved him. Also, I had nowhere to go on that busy street. Mr. Horn got involved it appears cause he had a gun and maybe felt he had the upper hand and intended to make a difference with that weapon.
Would he have gotten involved had he NOT had a gun???
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
i'm just pointing out that a law student would clearly know the difference between burglery and home invasion. it's constantly on the news so i can't believe someone else didn't pick up on it. but a law student now knowing basic law???????????
there was an incident in phoenix last monday where a mexican knocked on the door of an older man; forced his way in and killed the man. his 10 year old granddaughter was in the home; but locked herself in a closet when she heard the noise. the local fox station reported that there were no clues other than someone seeing a hispanic male walking to the door.
if horn had been his neighbour; he would have stopped a killer from getting away; to live to kill another day.
brilliant law student; isn't he love?
i do believe soulsinging addressed this in post #237.
and well taylor's dead now. so lets just see what eventuates shall we?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
is this the way a normal person rationalizes things? if the dog wouldn't have stopped to take a shite he would've caught the rabbit? is this why there's more traffic related shootings in states with strict gun laws than in states with liberal gun laws? is this east coast mentality? especially for a wanna-be lawyer. horn didn't shoot anyone over a traffic incident even though he clearly had a gun. but why are we talking about traffic incidents in the first place? sounds like someone is backed into a corner and doesn't know what to say. so change the subject.
the report says he fired 3 shots. if he shot each 3 times; were they lined up so he could shoot through the first one into the second? way to keep the facts straight counsler.
clearly you don't have the balls. in fact; i'd expect you to hide in a closet.
good neighbours look after their neighbours. i've lived in a few places and my neighbours always looked after our house when we weren't home. they watched over the kids when we weren't about. they watched over our vehicles when we couldn't see them. people are suppose to take care of eachother. horn should have kept them in the house. forget what some dizzy opperator just out of high school told him. she was advising him for his own saftey; but apparently; he could take care of himself. my neighbours here and elsewhere are like family. they attend family functions and i attend theirs. for a while; i lived next door to my sister. so horns relationship with his neighbours will effect a jury IF he's charged. so far he hasn't been. in fact; fellow texans may consider him a hero for killing 2 criminals. we don't know if the criminals had a weapon. a 911 call wouldn't have that information. when you see a weapon you shoot; you don't talk about it.
i think you lack the balls to care about others (your words); and get involved to help others; and to consider your fellow man your brother; but most of all, to take a stand against crime. horn begged the opperator to tell the police to hurry up. if he was itching to shoot someone; he never would have called 911.
if mushy east coast liberals rely on the police; crime will thrive which explains the high crime rate there. i've yet to see a crime committed in front of the police. their job is clean-up. they show up afterwards and decide if the victims need EMT or the coroner. out west we do things differently. if something should happen; my life is in my neighbours hands and his in mine. police response time is 3 to 4 hours. that's if they even find us. so yes; it takes balls to stand up and do the right thing. you have to accept that you may be shot yourself. you must also take responsability for your actions. horn not being charged makes me think the perps had a weapon(s). if they were unarmed and he shot them in the back; he would've been arrested on the spot. we clearly don't have all the facts. and without all the facts; we shouldn't judge him. without knowing who he shot; we shouldn't judge him.
killing isn't wrong; murder is.
not on the news here. i don't know texas law and you acted like it didnt make a difference which it was. you never mentioned any distinction, just simply said the guy got what he deserved and horn was justified in killing him with no mention as to whether or not it was home invasion or burglary... in fact, the initial disagreement was sparked by your contention that lethal force in defense of property, even a third party's property, was justified. now, 150 posts in this thread later, you're suddenly backing down becos it's clear you're wrong and suddenly i misinterpreted you and you were just playing devil's advocate. how convenient.
how about a supposed attorney who is still utterly incapable of giving a relevant case citation for a case establishing a constitutional right to property?
it's called a slippery slope. at what point is lethal force no longer acceptable? you've said it's fine to gun someone down if you THINK they were robbing someone else's house. what laws do you have to think they were breaking in order to shoot them? domestic violence? rape? burglary? traffic violations? drug use? where do you stop it?
my bad. must have been all your talk of double tapping. i got confused. he fired 3. YOU would have fired 3 apiece.
i'd have stayed in my house like i was told. my neighbor's house is his own damn problem and im not going to kill or be killed over his stereo.
im sniffling. really, i am. i'd start the slow clap if you could hear it. i'd like to live inside the waltons too. that would be sweet.
we will see what happens to horn. i've little hope though. this is texas we're talking about after all. we should have let them stay their own country.
I hope you don't think I was for ALL Mr. Horn did in this incident. I totally hope he will face some punishment for this shooting.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
aahhh little man. i told you i wouldn't do your research for you. i learned the difference when i was 17 and a friend got caught breaking into houses in northbrook illinois. he got 2 counts of burglery and 1 count home invasion which carries a 15 year sentence. i wanted to see how far you'd carry on.
if someone tries to rob you with a gun; can you shoot them? yes. alberry v us proves that in one way because the man was breaking into the home to STEAL PROPERTY. the same as the man using a gun to steal your property. or the many instances where an armed person tried to carjack someoone and the car owner killed that person protecting his PROPERTY. i know phoenix has several cases if you wish to look them up. as i said many times; i changed careers after my surgery. if you'd like to pay me to do research; PM me.
not at all. in fact; i posted a texas law where it's illegal to shoot someone in the back. i said that even if the new home invasion law stuck; he'll probably be charged with shooting them in the back (as everyone seems to contend that they ran). i believe i posted that he'd be charged in the first 2 pages. someone else kept chattering on and i wanted to see how much he really knew since he didn't read my earlier posts.
i think he will be punished but not to the satisfaction of this board. i suspect his defence will be that the legislators "lit the fuse" by enacting this law without clarification. and the 911 opperator for not knowing the law better. and that he's close to his neighbours and feared for them. a nice senareo can be painted to a jury. a jury who wanted the law in the first place. i say he gets probation if he has good counsel.
someone pointing a gun at you is self defense. your life is in danger. thus, you are justified to shoot an armed carjacker regardless of his intentions becos your life is in danger. alberry was, according to you, a home invasion where someone broke into their house. a different scenario from shooting someone you see coming out of an empty house.
im not asking you to do research for me. im asking you to write the citation down from your vaunted legal textbook on the supreme court. are there no citations? becos i cannot find a legal opinion on alberry on any legit legal research service out there. my time is also valuable. you're the one making the contentions, im asking for your sources. i don't care enough to research it myself. im also just partly curious... you retired from practice eh? did you forget what a case citation looks like when you did? i'd love to even see whether or not you're capable or typing one or have any clue what form they take. cos you always get skittish when i ask for any sort of proof of your legal training. no cases, no firms, no law schools, no rudimentary legal skills. gimme something man. something that shows more knowledge than can be gained from any redneck's copy of "supreme court gun cases."
but in the end, you're right. the texas law in the other thread says this is ok. that's fucked up.
First, he said in the call he didn't know his neighbors so that should work out just fine for him. Second, just by begging for the police to show up does not prove that he was not itching to shoot someone. He said he was not going to let them get away. And as far as the facts not being released about if the perps had weapons or not, any state that is ok with a black person being dragged behind a truck until they are decapitated, is probably ok with a couple of black guys being shot in broad daylight for petty theft. Who knows? Maybe the authorities are looking for some guns to plant on the bastards.
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Mr. Horn is white and the 2 burglars are black? IF that's the case and this being Texas, there's NOWAY anything going to happen to Horn. Maybe he'll get a big pat on the back and a big thank from the community.
That's the way of America these days, what would really would've been interesting is if the roles were reversed how would the community have taken on this case???
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
most everyone on this board knows i'm packed and ready to move to my nevada ranch. i'm not opening boxes to find 20+ year old crap from a career i had to give up in 1986; plus; have no interest in. the at least dozen people i know personally (and also have my CD); on this board can confirm this but it isn't necessary. i know my rights in the states i own peoperty in. that's all i care about. if this interests you so much; do some research.
if you want advice; you just missed it. always keep the other side thinking that they're winning. then smash them at the end. knowing the difference between burglery and home invasion settled the matter. i'll check the other thread but in this thread; with the information given; it was not home invasion and the law didn't apply.
then horn is a bloody idiot. if he didn't know his neighbours; how could he know he wasn't about to shoot his neighbours. if i were itching to shoot someone; i'd have a throwaway piece (stolen gun) with me to plant on them.
i can not begin to tell you what i see as wrong in that last sentence. the sentiment disappoints me greatly.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yeah, it was incredibly irresponsible of them to put you in that situation Roland. And it makes such a mess of your life. I had to move house and put a general warning amongst my family not to tell where I was if someone should ring asking questions. I'm related to all the people in the phone book with my surname so it wouldn't have been too hard to track me down if he'd tried. I don't think he did, but he sure did threaten to. I was very lucky that the senior detective in the case I was witness to knew of the offender and was aware that he'd been making threats and when I expressed my concern about giving my personal details to all in the court he arranged for me to just lodge them for the judge. It's really crappy that you weren't afforded the same.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
in the us; the accused has a right to face their accuser. it works most of the time; and when it doesn't; we have the witness protection program. which is basically what you two did; except you didn't get a new identy.
i think this is another reason FOR vigilante justice. the criminal in both your cases ruined your life or at least; put you in fear and made you do things you wouldn't have done.
funny how we both say we dont care enough to do research, but we've filled an ungodly number of pages here debating it
not sure i get your advice?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift