keep killing each other mentalists.. i'm outta this thread... i have to go read a guidebook on "How to set up your own Funeral Business in America"
i think i could make a fortune
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
OK, glad we put the first point to bed... :rolleyes:
You can't buy whatever you want, that's anarchy talk again... there are restrictions on certain things for good reasons, like they are dangerous and not in the best interest of society as a whole to be available to all. Yes I know the world isn't perfect and this is abused but you don't solve this by taking away all the restrictions you do it by fixing the system.
I can buy whatever I want, so long as I have the money for it. Your "fixing the system" just means deciding when you're going to commit violence against me for doing so. Your paragraph above implies some universal social purpose. Unfortunately, I don't care about universal social purpose nor do I believe it to exists.
There will always be guns yes I accept that but they shouldn't be widely available to the general public, the whole point of a civilised society is that people are put in positions of responsibility for the good of the rest of society. You apparently distrust yours so much that you feel the need to be protected from them or use this as an excuse to arm yourself.
I already told you that trust isn't an issue here. I don't trust my government, but that has nothing to do with why I own a gun.
Nit-picking again, you claim the only way for you to give up guns is for "others" to have them and then use that as the very argument for keeping yours, sorry but circular, if it's not, show me the circumstances in which you would give up your gun...
Telling me what my argument is doesn't make it so. Stop pretending that I'm telling you I want a gun to protect me from yours. That isn't why I want a gun.
huh? there is no reason for guns to be used against the government. why would there be?
In your defence should your government point a gun at you and tell you what to do...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
You can't have it both ways. Basically you're saying, well, it was wrong for the government to do, but what the hell, they were no good anyway. And you are also inferring that (since they were no good anyway), deadly force with firearms was ok, too.
I can buy whatever I want, so long as I have the money for it. Your "fixing the system" just means deciding when you're going to commit violence against me for doing so. Your paragraph above implies some universal social purpose. Unfortunately, I don't care about universal social purpose nor do I believe it to exists.
I already told you that trust isn't an issue here. I don't trust my government, but that has nothing to do with why I own a gun.
Telling me what my argument is doesn't make it so. Stop pretending that I'm telling you I want a gun to protect me from yours. That isn't why I want a gun.
Nice lack of social conscience...
So tell us, why do you want a gun and in what circumstances would you give this up...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
but could you define "target"...? do you mean the store...or a skeet, or a dog, or person, a desired goal, or A railroad signal that indicates the position of a switch by its color, position, and shape, or The sliding sight on a surveyor's leveling rod, or An object of criticism or attack...
you see, "target" can mean several things, please be more clear...
As far as gun control is concerned I'm kind of on the fence. I don't think that personal fire arms should be banned. The majority of gun owners are responsible people who use them for sport. On the other hand I find it troubling that this kid was able to buy a weapon so easily. From what reports have ststed the background check to a couple of minutes and then he is off. A criminal background check can be completed in that amount of time but what about education of gun safety and determining if the buyer is psychologically sound. In New York state there is a waiting period and you need letters from community members to determine you character. A process like this would have probably prevented this kid from purchasing the guns.
I don't think though that icidents like this school shooting could be easly remedied by simply imposing stricter gun laws. Maybe in this case it might have but then again people have the option of turning to the black market.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I think you made it clear another time that firearms aren't entirely banned in Scotland. There is still the traditional hunting.
Since people seem very keen on Wiki, here is the position in the UK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom
There have been a couple of shootings in the UK (wiki mentions them) but at least each time, something has been done to avoid these kind of crimes escalating like in the US. Two incidents since 1987 compared at least 2 a year for the past ten years in the US..
Note this: "Since 1946, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a gun."
Perhaps. Or perhaps someone weilding a knife, club, crowbar, broken bottle, etc..
Then let's escalate it even further then :rolleyes: to defend yourselves against all the guns that are out there let's make it easier to get hold of any other weapons you desire...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
As far as gun control is concerned I'm kind of on the fence. I don't think that personal fire arms should be banned. The majority of gun owners are responsible people who use them for sport. On the other hand I find it troubling that this kid was able to buy a weapon so easily. From what reports have ststed the background check to a couple of minutes and then he is off. A criminal background check can be completed in that amount of time but what about education of gun safety and determining if the buyer is psychologically sound. In New York state there is a waiting period and you need letters from community members to determine you character. A process like this would have probably prevented this kid from purchasing the guns.
I don't think though that icidents like this school shooting could be easly remedied by simply imposing stricter gun laws. Maybe in this case it might have but then again people have the option of turning to the black market.
It's been pretty well established that Virginia is one of the states easiest to buy firearms in.
Then let's escalate it even further then :rolleyes: to defend yourselves against all the guns that are out there let's make it easier to get hold of any other weapons you desire...
Why do I need to escalate? Nobody is calling for escalation except you.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Why do I need to escalate? Nobody is calling for escalation except you.
I was taking your stance one step further...
You want to defend against broken bottles with a gun, this is an escalation, why stop there...?
irony... hence the rolleyes :rolleyes: no? not grasping that concept?
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
There have been a couple of shootings in the UK (wiki mentions them) but at least each time, something has been done to avoid these kind of crimes escalating like in the US.
This argument sounds the same as those who defend wiretaps to lessen the chance of another terrorist attack.
Since people seem very keen on Wiki, here is the position in the UK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom
There have been a couple of shootings in the UK (wiki mentions them) but at least each time, something has been done to avoid these kind of crimes escalating like in the US. Two incidents since 1987 compared at least 2 a year for the past ten years in the US..
Note this: "Since 1946, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a gun."
I skimmed it quick and bookmarked it. Thanks.
I've taken note of your "note". That's an excellent point, and one that I am keen to. In a civilized society, and I do believe that America is civilized (though i'm sure we sound whacky as hell it is overwhelmingly peaceable here almost wherever you go), it (the self-defense argument) seems to propogate a place that is mostly dangerous, all the time.
The problem is that 99% of handgun owners think that they own a gun to protect themselves when they are more often than not putting themselves in more danger than if they didn't own the gun. Most car owners don't think of the car as a means of defence or aggression. Comparing guns to cars is a poor attempt that is regularly used to justify gun ownership.
It is not necessarily incorrect to compare a gun to a car. I've seen this mentioned a few times here and people need to realize that when they say "guns should be illegal because 10,000 people are killed each year by guns", they've said:
X NUMBER OF PEOPLE ARE KILLED EACH YEAR BY OBJECT Y, THEREFORE OBJECT Y SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM SOCIETY
That certainly allows for a comparison between guns and anything else that contribute to murder, death, or violence. If you don't want people to compare cars and guns, make your arguments more complete.
Taking away rights in "the interest of society" is never a very good idea. At least in my mind.
"Sometimes" it is, just a matter of balance, "never" is ridiculous, do you honestly believe you have the right to do anything you want currently?
Surely you don't believe you should have the right to do anything you want to anyone else? how about rape? murder? should you have the "right" to do this? of course not...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
You want to defend against broken bottles with a gun, this is an escalation, why stop there...?
irony... hence the rolleyes :rolleyes: no? not grasping that concept?
Your own country is proof that guns aren't needed to kill people. Other weapons can be used for that. If I believe some asshole is about to kill me with a broken bottle, I will use deadly force to stop deadly force being used against me.
What would you do? Cower in the corner wimpering while you bleed out, all the while patting yourself on the back that you didn't have to resort to using a scary gun?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Taking away rights in "the interest of society" is never a very good idea. At least in my mind.
What rights are you talking about... your incredible freedom and right to do what you want, when you want, to whom you want? This has been talked about before.. your 'rights' are taken away or limited all the time 'in the interest of society'.. those are laws.... you are subjected to them every day, all the time.
"Sometimes" it is, just a matter of balance, "never" is ridiculous, do you honestly believe you have the right to do anything you want currently?
Surely you don't believe you should have the right to do anything you want to anyone else? how about rape? murder? should you have the "right" to do this? of course not...
There cannot be a "right to rape" or a "right to murder". Those actions invalidate the rights of others, which invalidates the rights of self. It's like saying "I cannot be free to be unfree".
"Sometimes" it is, just a matter of balance, "never" is ridiculous, do you honestly believe you have the right to do anything you want currently?
Surely you don't believe you should have the right to do anything you want to anyone else? how about rape? murder? should you have the "right" to do this? of course not...
No but ownership and freedom to do as I please are not doing anything to anyone else. It was not legal to murder people before Monday and should not be legal today. It was legal to own firearms though and should remain so.
your 'rights' are taken away or limited all the time 'in the interest of society'.. those are laws.... you are subjected to them every day, all the time.
Hehe...you sound proud of that.
Maybe we should have kept slavery. We had it before, right? If anything, I guess we should have made more people slaves.
What rights are you talking about... your incredible freedom and right to do what you want, when you want, to whom you want? This has been talked about before.. your 'rights' are taken away or limited all the time 'in the interest of society'.. those are laws.... you are subjected to them every day, all the time.
I never called for the right to do anything to anyone. I am speaking about owning a firearm.
I skimmed it quick and bookmarked it. Thanks.
I've taken note of your "note". That's an excellent point, and one that I am keen to. In a civilized society, and I do believe that America is civilized (though i'm sure we sound whacky as hell it is overwhelmingly peaceable here almost wherever you go), it (the self-defense argument) seems to propogate a place that is mostly dangerous, all the time.
I am american (well.. half), I have lived and worked in america.. All I can say is that I am happy I am not raising my daughter there. As much as americans clamour about freedom, rights, etc. I believe Europe (well.. let's say the UK because I live here and raise my daughter here), is much more 'civilized' and 'free' than the US. We have a lot less constraints and paranoia... This is not America bashing.. just an observation..
Your own country is proof that guns aren't needed to kill people. Other weapons can be used for that. If I believe some asshole is about to kill me with a broken bottle, I will use deadly force to stop deadly force being used against me.
What would you do? Cower in the corner wimpering while you bleed out, all the while patting yourself on the back that you didn't have to resort to using a scary gun?
Of course people will always kill each other but why arm them with the most effective one on one killing machine ever invented?
Don't try and make yourself out to be macho by carrying a gun, it's pathetic, and of course I would defend myself, your comments are ridiculous, grow up...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
Comments
i think i could make a fortune
I can buy whatever I want, so long as I have the money for it. Your "fixing the system" just means deciding when you're going to commit violence against me for doing so. Your paragraph above implies some universal social purpose. Unfortunately, I don't care about universal social purpose nor do I believe it to exists.
I already told you that trust isn't an issue here. I don't trust my government, but that has nothing to do with why I own a gun.
Telling me what my argument is doesn't make it so. Stop pretending that I'm telling you I want a gun to protect me from yours. That isn't why I want a gun.
In your defence should your government point a gun at you and tell you what to do...
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
Umm....the ratio between life and death is always 1:1, guns or no guns.
I think you made it clear another time that firearms aren't entirely banned in Scotland. There is still the traditional hunting.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Did I mention firearms in my post?
Nice lack of social conscience...
So tell us, why do you want a gun and in what circumstances would you give this up...
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
but could you define "target"...? do you mean the store...or a skeet, or a dog, or person, a desired goal, or A railroad signal that indicates the position of a switch by its color, position, and shape, or The sliding sight on a surveyor's leveling rod, or An object of criticism or attack...
you see, "target" can mean several things, please be more clear...
Perhaps. Or perhaps someone weilding a knife, club, crowbar, broken bottle, etc..
I don't think though that icidents like this school shooting could be easly remedied by simply imposing stricter gun laws. Maybe in this case it might have but then again people have the option of turning to the black market.
There have been a couple of shootings in the UK (wiki mentions them) but at least each time, something has been done to avoid these kind of crimes escalating like in the US. Two incidents since 1987 compared at least 2 a year for the past ten years in the US..
Note this: "Since 1946, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a gun."
Then let's escalate it even further then :rolleyes: to defend yourselves against all the guns that are out there let's make it easier to get hold of any other weapons you desire...
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
It's been pretty well established that Virginia is one of the states easiest to buy firearms in.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Why do I need to escalate? Nobody is calling for escalation except you.
I was taking your stance one step further...
You want to defend against broken bottles with a gun, this is an escalation, why stop there...?
irony... hence the rolleyes :rolleyes: no? not grasping that concept?
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
I thought he bought them in another state. I guess that's besides the point. It just seems that a quick two minute background check is not sufficient.
This argument sounds the same as those who defend wiretaps to lessen the chance of another terrorist attack.
What are you on about? It's more like trying to define the cause and roots of a terrorist attack and work on that level...
Seems like it does work to some extent since we're not having shootouts like there's no tomorrow...
I skimmed it quick and bookmarked it. Thanks.
I've taken note of your "note". That's an excellent point, and one that I am keen to. In a civilized society, and I do believe that America is civilized (though i'm sure we sound whacky as hell it is overwhelmingly peaceable here almost wherever you go), it (the self-defense argument) seems to propogate a place that is mostly dangerous, all the time.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Taking away rights in "the interest of society" is never a very good idea. At least in my mind.
It is not necessarily incorrect to compare a gun to a car. I've seen this mentioned a few times here and people need to realize that when they say "guns should be illegal because 10,000 people are killed each year by guns", they've said:
X NUMBER OF PEOPLE ARE KILLED EACH YEAR BY OBJECT Y, THEREFORE OBJECT Y SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM SOCIETY
That certainly allows for a comparison between guns and anything else that contribute to murder, death, or violence. If you don't want people to compare cars and guns, make your arguments more complete.
"Sometimes" it is, just a matter of balance, "never" is ridiculous, do you honestly believe you have the right to do anything you want currently?
Surely you don't believe you should have the right to do anything you want to anyone else? how about rape? murder? should you have the "right" to do this? of course not...
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
What would you do? Cower in the corner wimpering while you bleed out, all the while patting yourself on the back that you didn't have to resort to using a scary gun?
What rights are you talking about... your incredible freedom and right to do what you want, when you want, to whom you want? This has been talked about before.. your 'rights' are taken away or limited all the time 'in the interest of society'.. those are laws.... you are subjected to them every day, all the time.
There cannot be a "right to rape" or a "right to murder". Those actions invalidate the rights of others, which invalidates the rights of self. It's like saying "I cannot be free to be unfree".
No but ownership and freedom to do as I please are not doing anything to anyone else. It was not legal to murder people before Monday and should not be legal today. It was legal to own firearms though and should remain so.
Hehe...you sound proud of that.
Maybe we should have kept slavery. We had it before, right? If anything, I guess we should have made more people slaves.
I never called for the right to do anything to anyone. I am speaking about owning a firearm.
I am american (well.. half), I have lived and worked in america.. All I can say is that I am happy I am not raising my daughter there. As much as americans clamour about freedom, rights, etc. I believe Europe (well.. let's say the UK because I live here and raise my daughter here), is much more 'civilized' and 'free' than the US. We have a lot less constraints and paranoia... This is not America bashing.. just an observation..
Of course people will always kill each other but why arm them with the most effective one on one killing machine ever invented?
Don't try and make yourself out to be macho by carrying a gun, it's pathetic, and of course I would defend myself, your comments are ridiculous, grow up...
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...