but person no...big difference in my book......using dogs post...acorns are alive...just as a newly impregnated egg....I know I'm using terrible terminoligy...please excuse.
:rolleyes:
makes no difference. you don't need religion to feel that there is a person at conception and i know MANY people who feel exactly that way. there, corrected. let's not play semantics.
Well, when I read the article I was thinking "masters of the obvious." Because of course all of the intent required in adoption is generally going to add up to more invested, responsible parenting. I suppose that may be true whether the child in question was concieved intentionally or accidentally.
What about those parents that go though years of invasive infertility treatments? Are they as good at parenting as the adoptive parents?
The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
Well, when I read the article I was thinking "masters of the obvious." Because of course all of the intent required in adoption is generally going to add up to more invested, responsible parenting. I suppose that may be true whether the child in question was concieved intentionally or accidentally.
What about those parents that go though years of invasive infertility treatments? Are they as good at parenting as the adoptive parents?
I actually believe that article has a political objective. I simply used it in an argument I don't believe they intended for it to be.
"Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
makes no difference. you don't need religion to feel that there is a person at conception and i know MANY people who feel exactly that way. there, corrected. let's not play semantics.
okay..now I'm getting what your saying...soooory for being slow......and I wasn't playing the semantics game.....life and person being two totally different concepts....but I still don't understand from a logical point of veiw how a person would equate a newly fertilized eggs with a few cells as being a human without having some religious influence....and I understand there will be the exception..you being one obviously.....I know of no one else personally that feels this way. Well except my religious freinds....god bless their souls (-:
I must say, reading back through the whole thing, this has been an excellently conducted discussion. Almost everyone has added interesting, thoughtful comment regardless of what side of the debate they sit at.
And I have to say, having watched this divisive subject keenly over the years, it's no small feat that this has occured. So well done to everyone who contributed in this spirit.
Dog Loyal, I have to say that I agree with you the most. As well as the thread starter, of course, which I think I mentioned previously.
Thank you girl, for providing what I could not. A well rounded, consistent, unemotional opinion. It really has done me the world of good to see someone so eloquently put forward the views that you have amidst the chorus of disapproval which I'm sure you knew was coming. I'm so very sorry for your loss and the trauma it must have been for you. It's a credit to you that you honor your child in this way. Thank you so much for sharing.
Thumbing, thanks for the link on adoption. It is an interesting theory, one that I had questions about the validity of the study on, or should I say questions regarding bias. But an interesting article. Thank you.
bee_boy it's VERY refreshing to be able to read a reasoned, non-emotive, friendly discussion from someone who is religious. You are to be congratulated on your efforts.
Soulsinging, I really appreciate the way you have contributed to this discussion.
my fellow australian ( ithink, is gotham city in aussie?) i drive past an abortion clinic every morning... see people praying...
i was always pro choice until i had my daughter ....
people should have the right to choose... but i dont agree with it... i dont get the abortion debate... people can choose,... let them... but i wouldnt want it... now for the clincher
i think its ok if someone is raped and fall pregnant by the bastard that did it
does thaqt make me a hypocrite?
Gotham = Melbourne, my fellow aussie!! Must be a Melbourne/Sydney joke, but I thought everybody knew that Melbourne's skyline looked like Gotham?
I used to work for a large women's health organization, and was actually on the phone to the FCC here in Melbourne the day that they were attacked by a pro life extremist and the security guard was killed. I really don't understand the necessity for people to be protesting by loitering outside the clinics. If they are so convinced that praying is the answer then a more appropriate place is probably the way to go. Just my opinion.
I guess having children might make your view change. But I don't know Dinghy. I love kids and I completely believe that ALL children should be cared for with love and commitment. It doesn't change my view on abortion though. If a woman feels she cannot have the child then I believe she should be able to avail herself of competent health services. Interestingly, I've read statistics that indicate that a high number of women having abortions already have children or go on to have other children. So I'd say maybe that the circumstances are just not right for them to carry that particular child to term. It's interesting that your views changed after your daughter was born.
I'm sure she's a really special little person.
I guess that's my view too. It should be available for women, should they need to make that choice. And others should probably buy right out of it if it doesn't concern them.
I don't know about a hypcrite. It's how you see it. And fair enough too.
I guess you believe in pro life but with certain exceptions. That's cool.
aaaah now i know.. melbourne... it was my first contact with australia in Dec 05... holidayed in toorak (of all goddamn places) on the no. 8 tram line (i think).
yeah they can pray wherever they like i reckon, does it matter whether they're out the feckin front or not?
its not about prof life or pro chocie... its not a s simple as that...
i saw my daughter as a person from when we knew she existed... and her conception was pretty memorable too so its hard for me to fathom (A) what it feels like to get pregannt and thn (B) deciding to end it
a world where we dont need abortions... thats what we need
Dinghy I truly believe that most women see their pregnancy that way too. But I think that circumstances are not such that they wish to make their child suffer by being born into the circumstances as they are at that present time. Which is what makes it such a difficult decision for so many women.
Imagine knowing you were pregnant, being excited by it, overwhelmed with love for your child and knowing that you simply could not allow it to suffer, choosing to abort over choosing life. An excrutiating decision to make. And not one taken lightly.
I completely agree that a world where abortion was not necessary would be a wonderful place to be.
Dinghy I truly believe that most women see their pregnancy that way too. But I think that circumstances are not such that they wish to make their child suffer by being born into the circumstances as they are at that present time. Which is what makes it such a difficult decision for so many women.
Imagine knowing you were pregnant, being excited by it, overwhelmed with love for your child and knowing that you simply could not allow it to suffer, choosing to abort over choosing life. An excrutiating decision to make. And not one taken lightly.
I completely agree that a world where abortion was not necessary would be a wonderful place to be.
The potential suffering argument is the lamest, most illogical position to take with regard to being pro abortion. If there was any credibility to it, then it would be justifiable to kill your already-born children if it turns out that they had some unforeseen suffering that you hadn't anticipated when they were alive in your womb.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The potential suffering argument is the lamest, most illogical position to take with regard to being pro abortion. If there was any credibility to it, then it would be justifiable to kill your already-born children if it turns out that they had some unforeseen suffering that you hadn't anticipated when they were alive in your womb.
Well know1 I'm not going to be arguing with you about this.
My opinion is that abortion should be available to women. It is. End of story.
I firmly believe that my parent's life would have been better if they had chosen to abort me. So it's not like I can't see all sides of the situation dispassionately. And if I wasn't here then so be it.
I don't believe in life above all else. I believe in quality of life.
I will not watch or allow suffering under my nose and if I had to, if I saw someone I loved suffering, in excrutiating pain, then maybe I could end their suffering should they ask it of me. I wouldn't allow an animal to suffer, I'm hardly going to watch it happen to people that I love. BUT that is all irrelevant, because ultimately, that is MY decision based on the circumstances I MAY find myself in. and I completely accept that other people a) don't share my views and b) may never be in the circumstance where they have to make that decision.
Comments
:rolleyes:
makes no difference. you don't need religion to feel that there is a person at conception and i know MANY people who feel exactly that way. there, corrected. let's not play semantics.
and I don't want to loose this title...so am posting sparingly....
What about those parents that go though years of invasive infertility treatments? Are they as good at parenting as the adoptive parents?
I actually believe that article has a political objective. I simply used it in an argument I don't believe they intended for it to be.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
okay..now I'm getting what your saying...soooory for being slow......and I wasn't playing the semantics game.....life and person being two totally different concepts....but I still don't understand from a logical point of veiw how a person would equate a newly fertilized eggs with a few cells as being a human without having some religious influence....and I understand there will be the exception..you being one obviously.....I know of no one else personally that feels this way. Well except my religious freinds....god bless their souls (-:
Thanks DL, I'll take a look now.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Cool! Taking a look now.
And yes, it's 10.30am Saturday morning here.
And you are on Friday night there right?
Catch up!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
And I have to say, having watched this divisive subject keenly over the years, it's no small feat that this has occured. So well done to everyone who contributed in this spirit.
Dog Loyal, I have to say that I agree with you the most. As well as the thread starter, of course, which I think I mentioned previously.
Thank you girl, for providing what I could not. A well rounded, consistent, unemotional opinion.
Thumbing, thanks for the link on adoption. It is an interesting theory, one that I had questions about the validity of the study on, or should I say questions regarding bias. But an interesting article. Thank you.
bee_boy it's VERY refreshing to be able to read a reasoned, non-emotive, friendly discussion from someone who is religious. You are to be congratulated on your efforts.
Soulsinging, I really appreciate the way you have contributed to this discussion.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I disagree, but you know that already. You are of course entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine.
I completely agree.
That's life. Actions and consequences. We ALL have to deal with consequences.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Gotham = Melbourne, my fellow aussie!!
I used to work for a large women's health organization, and was actually on the phone to the FCC here in Melbourne the day that they were attacked by a pro life extremist and the security guard was killed. I really don't understand the necessity for people to be protesting by loitering outside the clinics. If they are so convinced that praying is the answer then a more appropriate place is probably the way to go. Just my opinion.
I guess having children might make your view change. But I don't know Dinghy. I love kids and I completely believe that ALL children should be cared for with love and commitment. It doesn't change my view on abortion though. If a woman feels she cannot have the child then I believe she should be able to avail herself of competent health services. Interestingly, I've read statistics that indicate that a high number of women having abortions already have children or go on to have other children. So I'd say maybe that the circumstances are just not right for them to carry that particular child to term. It's interesting that your views changed after your daughter was born.
I'm sure she's a really special little person.
I guess that's my view too. It should be available for women, should they need to make that choice. And others should probably buy right out of it if it doesn't concern them.
I don't know about a hypcrite. It's how you see it. And fair enough too.
I guess you believe in pro life but with certain exceptions. That's cool.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Dinghy I truly believe that most women see their pregnancy that way too. But I think that circumstances are not such that they wish to make their child suffer by being born into the circumstances as they are at that present time. Which is what makes it such a difficult decision for so many women.
Imagine knowing you were pregnant, being excited by it, overwhelmed with love for your child and knowing that you simply could not allow it to suffer, choosing to abort over choosing life. An excrutiating decision to make. And not one taken lightly.
I completely agree that a world where abortion was not necessary would be a wonderful place to be.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
(shit, i don't know how to quote two people)
hehe, the reason why he is calling you a son, is cause he thinks or he is a preacher
that's what preachers do, they either call you a son or daughter.
The potential suffering argument is the lamest, most illogical position to take with regard to being pro abortion. If there was any credibility to it, then it would be justifiable to kill your already-born children if it turns out that they had some unforeseen suffering that you hadn't anticipated when they were alive in your womb.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Why don't you go find a child of a drug addict and ask them if they want to be killed and let me know what they say?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Me too. And that's just one reason it makes no sense to kill a baby just because it might suffer.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
So sue your parents.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Well know1 I'm not going to be arguing with you about this.
My opinion is that abortion should be available to women. It is. End of story.
I firmly believe that my parent's life would have been better if they had chosen to abort me. So it's not like I can't see all sides of the situation dispassionately. And if I wasn't here then so be it.
I don't believe in life above all else. I believe in quality of life.
I will not watch or allow suffering under my nose and if I had to, if I saw someone I loved suffering, in excrutiating pain, then maybe I could end their suffering should they ask it of me. I wouldn't allow an animal to suffer, I'm hardly going to watch it happen to people that I love. BUT that is all irrelevant, because ultimately, that is MY decision based on the circumstances I MAY find myself in. and I completely accept that other people a) don't share my views and b) may never be in the circumstance where they have to make that decision.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Me too some days gue.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift