Religion has caused more

angelica

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Perhaps. I wonder what they would use instead of the fear of one's afterlife to get such a large base to follow and get behind them?

I agree wholeheartedly with baraka.

Many, many people make fear choices. Fear of WMD inspired the people your nation to support going to war. Fear of nuclear war can cause people to perpetuate the fear in the world in an attempt to stop it and other people's fear.

Advertising latches onto our inner sense of lack/fear and motivates us to buy. The news perpetuates fear and people gravitate to it, as their inner fears relate. I see this fear being as prevalent in non-religious as in religious people.

Fear of all kinds of things is the opposite to Love choices which inspire us to love one another, and help one another, and to share with one another. Love inspires us to flourish and grow and expand while fear drives us to contract, close off and separate.

Abookamongstthemany

angelica wrote:

Exactly.
I also don't see people dying because of the spread of religion. Do you believe God tells George Bush to bring about the deaths of thousands? I sure don't. I know Christianity does not accept killing, but rather one of it's base tenets is "thou shall not kill"

No but I don't believe in a god, he does. Could Bush believe he is doing what his god would want him to do? Perhaps. Their bible says to not accept killing but many seem to justify it anyway. I think they see it as self defense over another religon they see as a threat to their way of life.

angelica wrote:

I've heard the most degrading and belittling ways of treating the spiritual beliefs of members on this board alone. I can't overlook human ignorance/arrogance from either side. Any sense of arrogance seems to give people license to do all kinds of things in the name of ignorance and "being right".

I think that treatmant often goes both ways here. People are arrogant over many things. Some people are arrogant because they are more educated, more attractive, more talented but I don't see the amount of problems arising from these arrogances. Maybe in the lack of religon people would use these as justification for killing but I don't think that's necessarily what would inevitably happen. It's a possibility just as my thought is.

angelica

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

No but I don't believe in a god, he does. Could Bush believe he is doing what his god would want him to do? Perhaps. Their bible says to not accept killing but many seem to justify it anyway. I think they see it as self defense over another religon they see as a threat to their way of life.

I completely agree that they do justify killing, when it's clearly unjustifiable with their own ideals. I do believe George Bush looks at his options and chooses what he sees as the best options available, given the situation. I don't believe he has idealist insight that you, or baraka or I would have into a situation. I believe he is not a terribly insightful man, which is why he seems oblivious to the actual consequences of his actions. As such, he seems to more "blindly" follow his "faith". With such mass power that he holds, it's very easy to misstep, especially when one does not have the light of insight to light the way. Lack of insight is shown by uninsightful actions. Killing and war are as crude and uninsightful as I can imagine.

I think that treatmant often goes both ways here. People are arrogant over many things. Some people are arrogant because they are more educated, more attractive, more talented but I don't see the amount of problems arising from these arrogances. Maybe in the lack of religon people would use these as justification for killing but I don't think that's necessarily what would inevitably happen. It's a possibility just as my thought is.

Fair enough.

billpjbill

religion is not bad. people who use religion to kill others in the name of god are not religious, but unfortunately people who do good things in religion are not recognized as often as people who kill in the name of religion. there are good and bad sides to all well known organisations, but religion seems to be the one pointed out the most.

baraka

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I think that treatmant often goes both ways here. People are arrogant over many things. Some people are arrogant because they are more educated, more attractive, more talented but I don't see the amount of problems arising from these arrogances. Maybe in the lack of religon people would use these as justification for killing but I don't think that's necessarily what would inevitably happen. It's a possibility just as my thought is.

Then there is also the arrogance of those that are wealthier than most people, for example, let's look at some of the key players in the 14 most corrupt corporations you mentioned in another thread. Perhaps their arrogance is fueled by greed as oposed to religion. To them, their bottom-line is justification for the misfortune they might cause or have already caused others. And when there's money to be made, unfortunately many people will follow them down the same path.

decides2dream

baraka wrote:

Then there is also the arrogance of those that are wealthier than most people, for example, let's look at some of the key players in the 14 most corrupt corporations you mentioned in another thread. Perhaps their arrogance is fueled by greed as oposed to religion. To them, their bottom-line is justification for the misfortune they might cause or have already caused others. And when there's money to be made, unfortunately many people will follow them down the same path.

greed gets my vote, hands down. i said way earlier, since probably even before recorded history, humanity has been killing/pushing out others to take over more desirable territories to call their own. seriously, what we are enmeshed in right now over in iraq...what is that about exactly? hmmm...i'd say once again, greed. whether lauding power, money, resources, etc....wanting what's best is what imho has fueled the vast majority of conflicts. i think many a conflict based on greed has been masked over by being 'in the name of' religion...but yea, still greed...still trying to exert your own influence/power. it's the rare few who risk their lives to go after another unless they have something to gain. sorry, i don't think 'god's favor' motivates many, but moreso what they can get within THIS life.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

greed gets my vote, hands down. i said way earlier, since probably even before recorded history, humanity has been killing/pushing out others to take over more desirable territories to call their own. seriously, what we are enmeshed in right now over in iraq...what is that about exactly? hmmm...i'd say once again, greed. whether lauding power, money, resources, etc....wanting what's best is what imho has fueled the vast majority of conflicts. i think many a conflict based on greed has been masked over by being 'in the name of' religion...but yea, still greed...still trying to exert your own influence/power. it's the rare few who risk their lives to go after another unless they have something to gain. sorry, i don't think 'god's favor' motivates many, but moreso what they can get within THIS life.

This makes perfect sense, to me anyway. I also agree that people are motivated generally by what they can get in this life, even many so-called religious people. I find many religious people I've met split up their spiritual aspect of life and keep it far away from "practical concerns", which I've heard many a justification to be less than spiritual about.

onelongsong

billpjbill wrote:

religion is not bad. people who use religion to kill others in the name of god are not religious, but unfortunately people who do good things in religion are not recognized as often as people who kill in the name of religion. there are good and bad sides to all well known organisations, but religion seems to be the one pointed out the most.

good point. religion hasn't caused any deaths. the belief in God has never held a gun or pushed a button. it all comes down to man. when a group of people decide their beliefs are the only beliefs; and are willing to kill for their beliefs; bloodshed will follow. i don't know of any religion that condones killing. those who kill go against their religion to kill. those who wind-up their God on sundays and forget the teachings the rest of the week.

onelongsong

angelica wrote:

This makes perfect sense, to me anyway. I also agree that people are motivated generally by what they can get in this life, even many so-called religious people. I find many religious people I've met split up their spiritual aspect of life and keep it far away from "practical concerns", which I've heard many a justification to be less than spiritual about.

this brings up another point with me. what about those who fight for the "freedom" to practice what they believe? many so called holy wars were for freedom to believe and nothing was gained except that freedom. we all fight for freedom. not so much in current times; but every people have fought for freedom. the fight for freedom is different now. in the '60's blacks fought for freedom. in the '70's and '80's gays fought for acceptance; now they fight for marriage. i'm not singling any one group out; just using examples.

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

This makes perfect sense, to me anyway. I also agree that people are motivated generally by what they can get in this life, even many so-called religious people. I find many religious people I've met split up their spiritual aspect of life and keep it far away from "practical concerns", which I've heard many a justification to be less than spiritual about.

as highly developed we may be as a species...when it comes right down to it, we are still animals at the gut/instinctual level....even many animals kill/threaten/drive away other animals, even within their own species/group...to laud over the most desirable territory/feeding area/females/whatever. whatever is the envisioned 'advantage'....there was, is and probably always will be, some degree of conflict. perhaps we can at least hope, that as highly developed creatures, ever evolving...we will find better ways to even work out sharing the 'best' resources, etc...and not be motivated to harm on the baser instincts of greed, et al. so yes, while religion has played a role in many a conflict, even a truly central/pivotal role...i honestly do not believe it is THE biggest reason, and even amongst 'religious' conflicts...i think oftentimes...it was merely a handy 'excuse' to use, to mask the true reasons/desires...that honestly had nothing to do with religion or god, or anything remotely spiritual in nature. merely my own beliefs on it.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

as highly developed we may be as a species...when it comes right down to it, we are still animals at the gut/instinctual level....even many animals kill/threaten/drive away other animals, even within their own species/group...to laud over the most desirable territory/feeding area/females/whatever. whatever is the envisioned 'advantage'....there was, is and probably always will be, some degree of conflict. perhaps we can at least hope, that as highly developed creatures, ever evolving...we will find better ways to even work out sharing the 'best' resources, etc...and not be motivated to harm on the baser instincts of greed, et al. so yes, iwhile religion has played a role in many a conflict, even a truly central/pivotal role...i honestly do not believe it is THE biggest reason, and even amongst 'religious' conflicts...i think oftentimes...it was merely a handy 'excuse' to use, to maks the true reasons/desires...that honestly had nothing to do with religion or god, or anything remotely spiritual in nature. merely my own beliefs on it.

Again, I agree. I also agree religion is the "excuse", or justification as we try to rationalise our base nature that is what it is.

Byrnzie

IndianSummer wrote:

hmm... ideas, claims and suppositions... where is it supported by historical evidence and ancient records??

in any case, pre exilic judaism may well have sprung from Aten or any other source, but there is no doubt that post exilic (the "exile" in question being the babyonian captivity) judaism, and thus judaism as it has survived today, was infleunced by the religion of the Phareesees.

"..where is it supported by historical evidence and ancient records??"
In the same places where all the other historical evidence and ancient records are kept. Check it out. It's pretty interesting stuff. Akhenaten came along and outlawed the Polytheistic religion which had been in existence for ages - he worship of many gods. He instead ordered that the people of Egypt worship one god - the Aten (or sun god) and he outlawed the old religion. He and his followers were eventually driven out into the desert where he died, and the old religious order was restored. So much about his life has parallels with the life of moses.

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

Again, I agree. I also agree religion is the "excuse", or justification as we try to rationalise our base nature that is what it is.

yes.
i do think it is an interesting discussion, certainly thought over many, many times..i am sure this is not a unique discussion...sure to have crossed the minds of the great philosophers/thinkers, etc. taking it a step further...even if one were to believe religion is the root of all evils in the world, considering it also has seemed to exist in some form or another probably again, since the earliest beginnings of humanity......what does one suggest? a crusade to wipe religion from the face of the earth? i guess that is one course of action..although i think that would lead to the bloodiest/ugliest war waged ever...and i don't think it would come to fruition b/c although many are divided by their religious beliefs...it seems many DO have religious beliefs, and i don't think they'd give them up easily.

so then, while it makes for an interesting debate...i don't think any solutions lie in it...except to look further and think...what do we as a human society and global culture have in common, that can unite us, instead of focusing on all that is different and divides us...and work from there. even then, the baser instincts still exist, the greed still exists...so we still have to focus on ways to NOT engage in conflict, over ANY idea/concept/resource...and find ways to balance it all out.

so whether one agrees/disagrees with the initial thread premise..it still leaves us exactly where we are, and i personally do not believe trying to get people to change their beliefs will assist, if anything i would think it would hinder...so then...we STILL need to find solutions..whether religious, non-religious, etc....how to find the balance and stop killing each other.....for whatever 'cause' one decides is worthy.

onelongsong

decides2dream wrote:

yes.
i do think it is an interesting discussion, certainly thought over many, many times..i am sure this is not a unique discussion...sure to have crossed the minds of the great philosophers/thinkers, etc. taking it a step further...even if one were to believe religion is the root of all evils in the world, considering it also has seemed to exist in some form or another probably again, since the earliest beginnings of humanity......what does one suggest? a crusade to wipe religion from the face of the earth? i guess that is one course of action..although i think that would lead to the bloodiest/ugliest war waged ever...and i don't think it would come to fruition b/c although many are divided by their religious beliefs...it seems many DO have religious beliefs, and i don't think they'd give them up easily.

so then, while it makes for an interesting debate...i don't think any solutions lie in it...except to look further and think...what do we as a human society and global culture have in common, that can unite us, instead of focusing on all that is different and divides us...and work from there. even then, the baser instincts still exist, the greed still exists...so we still have to focus on ways to NOT engage in conflict, over ANY idea/concept/resource...and find ways to balance it all out.

so whether one agrees/disagrees with the initial thread premise..it still leaves us exactly where we are, and i personally do not believe trying to get people to change their beliefs will assist, if anything i would think it would hinder...so then...we STILL need to find solutions..whether religious, non-religious, etc....how to find the balance and stop killing each other.....for whatever 'cause' one decides is worthy.

wouldn't a war to remove religion be another religious war? like the athiest debate. they are "bothered" by religious words and symbols and fight to the supreme court to get their way. i am not bothered by a cross atop a building or the star of david. freedom to believe is also the freedom not to believe. removing these words and symbols violates my freedom to believe. i believe this is one nation "under God" yet i am not allowed to express my beliefs.
just something to think about.

decides2dream

onelongsong wrote:

wouldn't a war to remove religion be another religious war? like the athiest debate. they are "bothered" by religious words and symbols and fight to the supreme court to get their way. i am not bothered by a cross atop a building or the star of david. freedom to believe is also the freedom not to believe. removing these words and symbols violates my freedom to believe. i believe this is one nation "under God" yet i am not allowed to express my beliefs.
just something to think about.

it was all hypothetical...b/c i do not think, although of course i could be wrong, anyone is suggesting ridding the world of religion. i was merely taking it to that extreme for illustrative purposes, that no matter what....even sans religion, we'd still have most of the same problems/issues/wars/death.

i consider myself an agnostic....and again, i cannot speak for true atheists...but evenso...i don't think the issue lies with 'having a problem with' religious symbols...but moreso that they have NO place within any context of our governemnt. sure, feel free to believe this is a nation under God if you desire...but if you don't believe...why should that be on our currency?...or why swear on a bible in a court of law?....etc. THAT is ALL about what our country was supposed to be about...seperation of church and state. however, a completely different debate...and i would have to agree with the idea of seperation of church and state...religion has no place in our government if we are a TRULY free society, for ALL to follow their own beliefs...seems fair imho.

onelongsong

decides2dream wrote:

it was all hypothetical...b/c i do not think, although of course i could be wrong, anyone is suggesting ridding the world of religion. i was merely taking it to that extreme for illustrative purposes, that no matter what....even sans religion, we'd still have most of the same problems/issues/wars/death.

i consider myself an agnostic....and again, i cannot speak for true atheists...but evenso...i don't think the issue lies with 'having a problem with' religious symbols...but moreso that they have NO place within any context of our governemnt. sure, feel free to believe this is a nation under God if you desire...but if you don't believe...why should that be on our currency?...or why swear on a bible in a court of law?....etc. THAT is ALL about what our country was supposed to be about...seperation of church and state. however, a completely different debate...and i would have to agree with the idea of seperation of church and state...religion has no place in our government if we are a TRULY free society, for ALL to follow their own beliefs...seems fair imho.

i know you were taking it to the extreeme. i understood that.
as to your WHY's; because 87% of the populous believe in religion. isn't it majority rule anymore?

decides2dream

onelongsong wrote:

as to your WHY's; because 87% of the populous believe in religion. isn't it majority rule anymore?

honestly, what difference does that make? we are supposed to be a country based on religious freedom, seperation of church and state. therefore, no matter what the 'majority' practices/believes in regards to faith...is of no consequence..or shouldn't be...b/c we are supposed to keep religion and government seperate.

anyhoo......hasn't the 'majority' had it's way in any case? don't we ALL have the right to vote, and thus the majority would then have the most voice/power.....and thus why there isn't much change in that regard? as far as i know, it still says 'in god we trust' on our currency, etc. majority or minority, we ALL have the right to have our opinions heard. whether it leads to change or not, depends on a whole lot else. i don't know, to me, even if one is religious i would think they could agree what they believe and what is right for the country in regards to such matters, really should be seperate.

just an aside tho...amongst the 87%...are they all christian? believe in the bible or the 10 commandments, etc? if not, even amongst the religious...there is little to no meaning to swearing on a bible let's say.....and again, even amongst the minority....government should INCLUDE everyone, not EXCLUDE...thus religious language should not be present. religion is a CHOICE, a personal choice....government and laws are or should be seperate. merely my 2 cents.

IndianSummer

Byrnzie wrote:

So much about his life has parallels with the life of moses.

moses is pre exilic.

Byrnzie

IndianSummer wrote:

moses is pre exilic.

What the f++{~@ck are you on about? Or, maybe I should have said, what the f++{~@ck are you on?

IndianSummer

Byrnzie wrote:

What the f++{~@ck are you on about? Or, maybe I should have said, what the f++{~@ck are you on?

i maintain. zorastrianism is the origin of monotheistic religion as we know them today. ie. post-exilic (babyonian exile that is) judaism (and consequently christianity and islam) have borrowed heavily from zorastrianism. post exilic judaism can be traced directly back to the Pharisees.

read this -
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/zoroastrianism_influence.htm


and if you still cant understand, then maybe you could tell me what the fuck are you smoking.