I don't discount that at all. You're absolutely correct. That, however, does not give you any right to force anyone to go to school, except perhaps your own children.
How do you explain the fact that society doesn't collapse every June?
Because its from June until September which is 3 months of 12. Paying for babysitters or to send them to camps is plausible for 3 months. However you tack on an additional 9 months for these expenses and it could add up.
I knew you would bring up summer vacation in this argument. I will also add that is when most families take there family vacations so there is 2 weeks where the kids are cared for free of charge.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Good luck getting a job if you can't read or write.
Exactly and the shittier a job a person has (or if they have no job at all) the more likely they are to rob me and take my stuff. If all it takes is a law that requires them to go to school to help prevent that then I am all for it.
Plus a parent not caring enough to make sure their kid gets an education would seem to be a form of child abuse. Since especially young kids are not smart enough to know they should go to school and if no one gets them there, then by the time they are adults and can choose for themselves, if they are not educated they are kind of screwed.
And the only way to "read or write" is to participate in a compulsory education system???
No. You can be home-schooled. That is perfectly legal in this country -- but it is still compulsory that someone be teaching these kids.
I don't think you realize how many parents there are in this nation who really don't give a shit about their kids. They can't even be bothered to talk to them, much less teach them to read and write on their own. If the schools don't do it, the kids are fucked.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Actually no it isn't. Its not really pragmatic. With such a way of thinking, the universal human rights declaration is basically useless.
I appreciate your opinion.
I'm not referring to 'human-made-ascribed human rights'...as such are about ideology which is arbitrary. I'm interested in attunement to reality...the real reality, beyond human-made constructs.
so your problem is with the term volunteering?
My problem is with coersion in the name of 'good'; with distortion of volunteering; with human-made constructs further alienating people from reality at great cost in human potential. This is what I'm putting my finger on so far...to add to what I cannot logically portray, or am not recalling this instant.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Because its from June until September which is 3 months of 12. Paying for babysitters or to send them to camps is plausible for 3 months. However you tack on an additional 9 months for these expenses and it could add up.
I knew you would bring up summer vacation in this argument. I will also add that is when most families take there family vacations so there is 2 weeks where the kids are cared for free of charge.
Well, then I guess I'll concede to your rosy view of the American education system which seems to exist solely to babysit America's youth at the cost of $100 / day.
No. You can be home-schooled. That is perfectly legal in this country -- but it is still compulsory that someone be teaching these kids.
I don't think you realize how many parents there are in this nation who really don't give a shit about their kids. They can't even be bothered to talk to them, much less teach them to read and write on their own. If the schools don't do it, the kids are fucked.
Why should they give a shit about their kids, when you'll give a shit for them?
Yeah sorry I realized that after posting, you said under 18 (which includes 15, 8 and 3!). I just find that "strange", the idea to let a kid go without education if it's the parents will. Say if the parent only wants his sons and not his daughters to get an education.
And the only way to "read or write" is to participate in a compulsory education system???
Of course not. But I have yet to hear what your alternative to Compulsory Education is?
Kids should decide what they want to do from a young age? You don't think the responses will be play the Wii and watch Sponge Bob?
You should also let them decide what they want to eat as well. Pizza and McDonalds every night it is!
Kids not only want discipline, they crave it. Kids that are allowed to run wild will do so and mess up there life. Happens all of the time because Parents are so afraid to tell there kids no.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Why should they give a shit about their kids, when you'll give a shit for them?
Now I see where you're coming from. You don't give a shit about kids.
Well, at least your point of view makes sense now.
I would say that, kids who never had anyone give a shit about them grow up to be adults who don't give a shit about anyone else. Which is pretty much the No. 1 problem facing our world and nation.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
I think without making education manditory you are just making the problem worse. I think for the most part from what I have seen in my life, the people who don't think they need to bother with school are the ones who need education the most. I mean except for a few rare exceptions if you think you can be successful in life without finishing high school, you probably aren't that smart to begin with.
Remember that I didn't come close to calling for abolishing mandatory education.
I am one of the most educated people I know. I am a high school dropout.
farfromglorified is also one of the most educated people I know..it's my understanding he did not finish high school.
Ahnimus is one of the most educated people I know. He did not finish high school.
My daughter is one of the most educated people I know. She didn't finish one year of high school.
which brings me to one huge problem with universal education systems...people are entranced by the few going accepted 'truths' and are taught that that is the way it is. They often cannot see everything else that appears all around them beyond those 'truths'...like the innumerable possibilies that lie in each pregnant moment.
Also, when you get the majority who believe their formal education is all there is, it creates stigma against others who choose other ways that are equally effective although not understood. Stigma and cultural conditioning that people widely buy into is independent of Truth.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
If you look at the history of education in this country, it wasn't til the early part of the 20th century that education was mandatory (implementing high school). Also, as time has progressed from WW2 til the present, I think it's a pretty safe assumption to make that although education has increased, learning and retaining of information has not. So what we're really dealing with is not merely implementation of education per say, it is more a representation of the education we're receiving, how much of it is actually relevent and how the society around us is either impacted or influenced but such things. I'm 31yrs old and it's very obvious to me that most people in our society have more "education" in my lifetime, yet apply less of it or retain less of what they've been taught. That says a lot about the society, expectations we have for education and kids going through the process.
I'm talking reading and writing skills for younger kids.
I'm talking critical thinking and analysis skills for older kids.
I'm talking basic social skills for kids of all ages -- how to interact with people.
I'm talking preparation for the future. How do you know you'd like to be a scientist if you've never been exposed to science?
There's nothing wrong -- and certainly much that is beneficial -- about requiring kids to go to school through a certain age.
Another point: Having some experience with the field of education, I can tell you there are a lot of worthless parents out there. I would be absolutely horrified to think what would happen if these people were the sole guardians of a kid's education. Many of them, sad to say, are highly uneducated themselves. I'm sad to report you're putting way too much faith in them to turn out well-rounded, responsible, well-functioning members of society.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Well, then I guess I'll concede to your rosy view of the American education system which seems to exist solely to babysit America's youth at the cost of $100 / day.
Of course not. I was pointing out economic factors that would exist even if I agreed with you.
My main point is that kids need to be educated either by public or private school or by home schooling.
To have any kid not receive an education would be considered tragic in my view especially if the decision came from the parent.
But I could be selfish and say I agree with you because you want to create a nation of numbnuts who won't be able to take my job in 15 years. So I appreciate what you are trying to do for my job security.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
My daughter learned to read before she started school.
Mine, too! Without any help from government instructors. Imagine that!
Because it happens 'rarely' and because it is not widely fostered or even generally considered as a valid possibility, it almost leads one to think it's not possible......almost.....unless one is able to assess possibilities and discern information beyond social norms they take to be true.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
If you look at the history of education in this country, it wasn't til the early part of the 20th century that education was mandatory (implementing high school). Also, as time has progressed from WW2 til the present, I think it's a pretty safe assumption to make that although education has increased, learning and retaining of information has not. So what we're really dealing with is not merely implementation of education per say, it is more a representation of the education we're receiving, how much of it is actually relevent and how the society around us is either impacted or influenced but such things. I'm 31yrs old and it's very obvious to me that most people in our society have more "education" in my lifetime, yet apply less of it or retain less of what they've been taught. That says a lot about the society, expectations we have for education and kids going through the process.
That all is probably true. But I don't think the answer is: Fuck it, let 5-year-old Johnny do what he wants. He doesn't want to learn to read right now? Fine. I'm sure he'll figure it out on his own eventually.
Look, can a person get by in this day and age without basic education? Sure. But why make things more difficult than they have to be?
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
I'm certainly not for dumping the educational system, but I think it needs a serios and real overhaul. It has turned more into a factory producing clone workers for the economy than a system producing minds to better help society in any way, shape or form, which is true nature of what our education system is based upon.
That all is probably true. But I don't think the answer is: Fuck it, let 5-year-old Johnny do what he wants. He doesn't want to learn to read right now? Fine. I'm sure he'll figure it out on his own eventually.
Look, can a person get by in this day and age without basic education? Sure. But why make things more difficult than they have to be?
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Well, then I guess I'll concede to your rosy view of the American education system which seems to exist solely to babysit America's youth at the cost of $100 / day.
I would rather pay for the $100/day babysitter than whatever the cost per day is to keep someone locked up in prison since I am pretty sure as education level goes down criminal activity goes up.
Yeah sorry I realized that after posting, you said under 18 (which includes 15, 8 and 3!). I just find that "strange", the idea to let a kid go without education if it's the parents will. Say if the parent only wants his sons and not his daughters to get an education.
I never said "let a kid go without education if it's the parents will".
I think every child who wants an education should be supported by society to get one.
That would have had to do with me, given my own genetics.
This same daughter also confronted me when she was in grade 4, telling me I was an alcoholic. This, incidentally, was also the same year she was told as she was in the car driving to the hospital with mommy, that mommy had taken an overdose of medication for a suicide attempt. It wasn't surprising, really, that this same daughter ended up being psychiatrically hospitalized herself in her first year of high school 6 times (she says 7), setting off the chain of events that prevented her from finishing high school herself. )(My daughter was also advised by a compassionate principal at her school that she would be best served, due to her own forms of intelligence and life experiences, in self-education and self-direction outside the school system).
Oh, and during this same period of her high school career, I was also psychiatrically hospitalized 3 times.
FYI, the concept of "good parent" is a fallacy, imo, based on people's opinions, independent of understanding of actual dynamics of a situation. Despite the above circumstances that may portray me as a "bad" parent, my unending drive to heal myself and get my life on track and to be a good parent was always my fundamental reason for existing. And despite my ongoing failure.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
But how does a 5-year-old kid know whether or not he wants an education? He's not old enough to make these decisions by himself.
I haven't known a five year old who wasn't filled with natural curiosity about everything. When left to their own devices, humans seek growth. When mutated by human-made systems, they are taught to shut down their awareness.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I haven't known a five year old who wasn't filled with natural curiosity about everything. When left to their own devices, humans seek growth. When mutated by human-made systems, they are taught to shut down their awareness.
natural curiosity and education are related, but they aren't the same thing.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
I haven't known a five year old who wasn't filled with natural curiosity about everything. When left to their own devices, humans seek growth. When mutated by human-made systems, they are taught to shut down their awareness.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Of course not. But I have yet to hear what your alternative to Compulsory Education is?
Non-compulsory education.
Kids should decide what they want to do from a young age? You don't think the responses will be play the Wii and watch Sponge Bob?
LOL...I'm not sure how you're equating non-compulsory education to a system wherein kids automatically get to play Wii and watch Sponge Bob.
You should also let them decide what they want to eat as well. Pizza and McDonalds every night it is!
If I have an 8 year old who wants to eat pizza and mcdonalds every night, they're more than welcome to buy pizza and mcdonalds for themselves every night.
Kids not only want discipline, they crave it. Kids that are allowed to run wild will do so and mess up there life. Happens all of the time because Parents are so afraid to tell there kids no.
LOL...
Are you equating education with "discipline"? Yikes.
Comments
Because its from June until September which is 3 months of 12. Paying for babysitters or to send them to camps is plausible for 3 months. However you tack on an additional 9 months for these expenses and it could add up.
I knew you would bring up summer vacation in this argument. I will also add that is when most families take there family vacations so there is 2 weeks where the kids are cared for free of charge.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Exactly and the shittier a job a person has (or if they have no job at all) the more likely they are to rob me and take my stuff. If all it takes is a law that requires them to go to school to help prevent that then I am all for it.
Plus a parent not caring enough to make sure their kid gets an education would seem to be a form of child abuse. Since especially young kids are not smart enough to know they should go to school and if no one gets them there, then by the time they are adults and can choose for themselves, if they are not educated they are kind of screwed.
No. You can be home-schooled. That is perfectly legal in this country -- but it is still compulsory that someone be teaching these kids.
I don't think you realize how many parents there are in this nation who really don't give a shit about their kids. They can't even be bothered to talk to them, much less teach them to read and write on their own. If the schools don't do it, the kids are fucked.
for the least they could possibly do
I'm not referring to 'human-made-ascribed human rights'...as such are about ideology which is arbitrary. I'm interested in attunement to reality...the real reality, beyond human-made constructs.
My problem is with coersion in the name of 'good'; with distortion of volunteering; with human-made constructs further alienating people from reality at great cost in human potential. This is what I'm putting my finger on so far...to add to what I cannot logically portray, or am not recalling this instant.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Well, then I guess I'll concede to your rosy view of the American education system which seems to exist solely to babysit America's youth at the cost of $100 / day.
Why should they give a shit about their kids, when you'll give a shit for them?
That, I'd wager, is because you're a good parent.
But not everyone is.
Again, I'm not against home-schooling, if that what someone wants to do.
I'm against no-schooling.
for the least they could possibly do
Of course not. But I have yet to hear what your alternative to Compulsory Education is?
Kids should decide what they want to do from a young age? You don't think the responses will be play the Wii and watch Sponge Bob?
You should also let them decide what they want to eat as well. Pizza and McDonalds every night it is!
Kids not only want discipline, they crave it. Kids that are allowed to run wild will do so and mess up there life. Happens all of the time because Parents are so afraid to tell there kids no.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Mine, too! Without any help from government instructors. Imagine that!
Now I see where you're coming from. You don't give a shit about kids.
Well, at least your point of view makes sense now.
I would say that, kids who never had anyone give a shit about them grow up to be adults who don't give a shit about anyone else. Which is pretty much the No. 1 problem facing our world and nation.
for the least they could possibly do
I am one of the most educated people I know. I am a high school dropout.
farfromglorified is also one of the most educated people I know..it's my understanding he did not finish high school.
Ahnimus is one of the most educated people I know. He did not finish high school.
My daughter is one of the most educated people I know. She didn't finish one year of high school.
which brings me to one huge problem with universal education systems...people are entranced by the few going accepted 'truths' and are taught that that is the way it is. They often cannot see everything else that appears all around them beyond those 'truths'...like the innumerable possibilies that lie in each pregnant moment.
Also, when you get the majority who believe their formal education is all there is, it creates stigma against others who choose other ways that are equally effective although not understood. Stigma and cultural conditioning that people widely buy into is independent of Truth.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Of course not. I was pointing out economic factors that would exist even if I agreed with you.
My main point is that kids need to be educated either by public or private school or by home schooling.
To have any kid not receive an education would be considered tragic in my view especially if the decision came from the parent.
But I could be selfish and say I agree with you because you want to create a nation of numbnuts who won't be able to take my job in 15 years. So I appreciate what you are trying to do for my job security.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That all is probably true. But I don't think the answer is: Fuck it, let 5-year-old Johnny do what he wants. He doesn't want to learn to read right now? Fine. I'm sure he'll figure it out on his own eventually.
Look, can a person get by in this day and age without basic education? Sure. But why make things more difficult than they have to be?
for the least they could possibly do
From my point of view, that is child abuse, plain and simple.
for the least they could possibly do
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I would rather pay for the $100/day babysitter than whatever the cost per day is to keep someone locked up in prison since I am pretty sure as education level goes down criminal activity goes up.
My daughter learning to read had little to do with me.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
then she was just a lil genius
for the least they could possibly do
I never said "let a kid go without education if it's the parents will".
I think every child who wants an education should be supported by society to get one.
This same daughter also confronted me when she was in grade 4, telling me I was an alcoholic. This, incidentally, was also the same year she was told as she was in the car driving to the hospital with mommy, that mommy had taken an overdose of medication for a suicide attempt. It wasn't surprising, really, that this same daughter ended up being psychiatrically hospitalized herself in her first year of high school 6 times (she says 7), setting off the chain of events that prevented her from finishing high school herself. )(My daughter was also advised by a compassionate principal at her school that she would be best served, due to her own forms of intelligence and life experiences, in self-education and self-direction outside the school system).
Oh, and during this same period of her high school career, I was also psychiatrically hospitalized 3 times.
FYI, the concept of "good parent" is a fallacy, imo, based on people's opinions, independent of understanding of actual dynamics of a situation. Despite the above circumstances that may portray me as a "bad" parent, my unending drive to heal myself and get my life on track and to be a good parent was always my fundamental reason for existing. And despite my ongoing failure.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
But how does a 5-year-old kid know whether or not he wants an education? He's not old enough to make these decisions by himself.
for the least they could possibly do
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
natural curiosity and education are related, but they aren't the same thing.
for the least they could possibly do
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Non-compulsory education.
LOL...I'm not sure how you're equating non-compulsory education to a system wherein kids automatically get to play Wii and watch Sponge Bob.
If I have an 8 year old who wants to eat pizza and mcdonalds every night, they're more than welcome to buy pizza and mcdonalds for themselves every night.
LOL...
Are you equating education with "discipline"? Yikes.