Firstly, if you honestly believe that "forced" volunteerism is comparable to slavery, you seriously need your head examined. Get a grip and come back to reality.
Secondly, however you want to designate such a program - whether forced or a new way to help society by acclimating kids to help those around them in some manner. Do you not recognize all the good things that an come from this? Is our society that "on track" where instituting such a program, where teenagers put down video game controllers, turn off their ipods, tvs, computers, and similar to help less fortunate people and issues in our nation? Consider it an internship into the reality of our society in which they'll gain experience and have their eyes opened to the larger world around them through a particular issue, cause, belief while become more socially responsible citizens. Isn't that the kind of nation we want to become? So why wouldn't we embrace something that promotes such core values and morals?
This is all good and fine. It just misses the point.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Secondly, however you want to designate such a program - whether forced or a new way to help society by acclimating kids to help those around them in some manner. Do you not recognize all the good things that an come from this? Is our society that "on track" where instituting such a program, where teenagers put down video game controllers, turn off their ipods, tvs, computers, and similar to help less fortunate people and issues in our nation? Consider it an internship into the reality of our society in which they'll gain experience and have their eyes opened to the larger world around them through a particular issue, cause, belief while become more socially responsible citizens. Isn't that the kind of nation we want to become? So why wouldn't we embrace something that promotes such core values and morals?
So as long as the end is paradise, the means can be compulsion and that is ok?
To answer your last 2 questions:
No; and whose values and morals?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
But they are different. The very definition of volunteer displays that. You can't force someone to do something that is defined as "performing a service voluntarily" and then label it volunteer work; that is more like forced servitude.
You start forcing people to volunteer as a requirement to pass to the next grade and then it becomes something else; it is no longer volunteer work.
That's fine, so are you saying if they called it something other than volunteering you would be ok with it. They had that at my high school when I was a kid and I believe they called it community service. The service I did was way better than a lot of the other crap I had to do for homework, it taught me a lot about paying my dues and gave me the experience so that it turned into an actual job by the summer.
I understand many of you feel it's "forced" and object. But what is the point - is it not to help build a better, more responsible society? Many of you argue that because this is forced, it misses the point, yet couldn't you make the same exact case of the educational system we have? We force children to go to school in which case many of them are taught or learning things they have zero interest in and more importantly have zero chance of every applying in life or adding to society. Is that a bad system too? Fact is we have our education system setup (in theory) because it is supposed to help society in the end - the very same thing this new program offers.
This is all good and fine. It just misses the point.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
So as long as the end is paradise, the means can be compulsion and that is ok?
To answer your last 2 questions:
No; and whose values and morals?
So having a nation of socially responsible people isn't something that we should strive for?
And as far as whos morals, my idea of this sort of service program would leave that up to the kids/parents. If working in a homeless shelter is something that fits in with your morals, then great... if that doesn't do it for you and you'd rather help clean up a nature area, then great too... if it means helping with a church program to spend time with elderly members of the congregation, then that qualifies too...
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
So as long as the end is paradise, the means can be compulsion and that is ok?
To answer your last 2 questions:
No; and whose values and morals?
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Hi! I just had to chime in here with my two cents.
My parents made me "volunteer" at a hospital as a candy striper when I was in high school. I hated them for it, but looking back it was a great experience and even at the time felt like I was contributing to society. Not only that but it gave me some knowledge about pain, suffering and poverty..which, growing up in a white upper-middle class lifestyle, I had never known.
And then later I was able to put it on a resume.
This is the greatest band in the world -- Ben Harper
That's fine, so are you saying if they called it something other than volunteering you would be ok with it. They had that at my high school when I was a kid and I believe they called it community service.
In my view, it's much more than dressing it up with different rhetoric. For example, here, where it's mandatory to complete 40 'volunteer' hours before a high school diploma is given, they must access placements that ARE volunteer. It need to be assessed as volunteer work or it doesn't count. Therefore to just change the name at the school end will come off as disingenuous, when it's really the same thing as if it were called 'volunteer'.
Kids are very smart.
Which is why my son tells me many of his friends have falsified their hours in order to graduate. It is not the act of honour those in authority would like to impose on them and that it looks like in theory...forcing kids to volunteer. It's something very different.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I understand many of you feel it's "forced" and object. But what is the point - is it not to help build a better, more responsible society? Many of you argue that because this is forced, it misses the point, yet couldn't you make the same exact case of the educational system we have? We force children to go to school in which case many of them are taught or learning things they have zero interest in and more importantly have zero chance of every applying in life or adding to society. Is that a bad system too? Fact is we have our education system setup (in theory) because it is supposed to help society in the end - the very same thing this new program offers.
from your point of view, as you define it, that may be the point.
creating responsible human beings is very, very different than what I see here, and with this proposed dynamic...a dynamic that already exists where I live.
While arguing against the point, the point continues to be missed.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
well, i'd like to just say "no further questions" and leave it at that.
however, this whole notion of "cherry picking" and accusing me of being focused on issues that are sub-issues of sub-issues is infuriating!
with this attitude, it seems like you are saying that we the people should just lay down and take every transgression that is threatened against our constitution.
LOL...
Dude, you can cherry pick all you'd like. If this plan infuriates you, that's fine with me. Your reaction, however, amuses me, and your attempts to link this to "slavery" are silly -- and that's from someone who believes a lot of government plans amount to slavery.
I mean, fuck it, right?
Yes. Of COURSE the DOE is unconstitutional and all of public education is fundamentaly a farce.
The DOE absolutely could be believed to be unconstitutional, but the Supreme Court (the body the Constitution designates as its interpreter) does not. So you need to be a bit more careful with these kinds of statements.
But this assumption that because the system is broken already, we should therefore allow policy makers to come along and absolutely SHATTER it, is simply absurd.
LOL...this plan "shatters" nothing. It's just yet another tax credit for behavior the federal government wishes to subsidize.
Why is it silly to attempt to stand up against, and more importantly explain to and warn others against, such bad and unconstitutinal policies?
Shit, most people here have NO idea waht the fuck i am saying.
They have ZERO understanding of the constitutionality of this issue, or how it simply serves to further degrade their supreme law, and set bad precedent.
And here you stand, accusing me of "cherry picking" and being asinine for it.
All i want is for people to think criticaly about their options; to understand what the supreme law of the land IS; and to hopefuly be motivated to defend it -- regardless of how fluffly and lovely some new legislation sounds.
No offense, but you have no monopoly on "understanding what the supreme law of the land IS", nor are you defending much except for your ego and your distaste for Obama.
Your point of view is a broad philosophical, legal, and political statement. Applying it to such a small issue makes you look worse than the issue itself. If you have a broad beef with federal excercises in education financing (which is a very good beef), then you'd be wiser to actually debate this through the context of the DoE's existence, the vast amount of money and influence they wield, and the poor results they've achieved relative to tax payer returns and student potential. Doing it like this simply makes you look like you have a hard-on for Obama.
The 13th Admendment describes the difference between “free labor and unfree labor.” The Obama plan is not free labor. It includes expanding existing programs like AmeriCorps by three-fold, and the Peace Corps, among others. Secondly, it offers college students a $4,000 tax credit for 100 hours of community service. Obama would set a goal of 50 hours for high school and middle school students. The plan does not make that a requirement. He is essentially offering a tax credit to students if they volunteer their time. Sounds like a good idea.
Involuntary Servitude http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/1581fin.htm
Refers to a person held by actual force, threats of force, or threats of legal Coercion in a condition of slavery – compulsory service or labor against his or her will. This also includes the condition in which people are compelled to work against their will by a "climate of fear" evoked by the use of force, the threat of force, or the threat of legal coercion (i.e., suffer legal consequences unless compliant with demands made upon them) which is sufficient to compel service against a person's will. The first U.S. Supreme Court case to uphold the ban against involuntary servitude was Bailey v. Alabama (1911).
Forced Labor http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/1581fin.htm
Labor or service obtained by threats of serious harm or physical restraint; by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause a person to believe they would suffer serious harm or physical restraint if they did not perform such labor or services:by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process.
“Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened.”
...yet couldn't you make the same exact case of the educational system we have? We force children to go to school in which case many of them are taught or learning things they have zero interest in and more importantly have zero chance of every applying in life or adding to society. Is that a bad system too? Fact is we have our education system setup (in theory) because it is supposed to help society in the end - the very same thing this new program offers.
Oh, and for the record, all of our contrived human systems that are designed from ego, and our ideas of 'bettering' humanity and life, are seriously and deeply flawed. Like the school systems. Unfortunately, most people are so entrenched in the views of such systems that they are entirely unable to grasp this, much less understand how flawed they are and to what great cost of human potential.
And yet, that's a whole other story, beyond the inherent flaws in forced volunteering.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Not really worth a response because it's like comparing apples and platypuses...
Requiring high school kids to do some sort of community service (this plan says 50 hours, so like an hour a week) as part of their education isn't even remotely comparable to buying and forcing people into grueling labor based on race.
Of course it's comparable. It's not the same, but it's comparable. Anytime you force a human being to labor for you, it's slavery. It doesn't matter what your intentions are or your justications are, nor do the conditions or labor need to be the same as in 19th century america.
So having a nation of socially responsible people isn't something that we should strive for?
Having a nation of people who are conditioned by their governments to behave in an officially sanctioned socially responsible manner isn't something we should strive for.
Having a nation of people who willingly help one another is.
And as far as whos morals, my idea of this sort of service program would leave that up to the kids/parents. If working in a homeless shelter is something that fits in with your morals, then great... if that doesn't do it for you and you'd rather help clean up a nature area, then great too... if it means helping with a church program to spend time with elderly members of the congregation, then that qualifies too...
I LOVE the idea of volunteering, and my kids and I do it. I LOVE the idea of helping build a better community, helping people out of tough situations, etc...
I HATE any notion of government forcing me to do those things. Some of you seem quite comfortable having the ends justify the means. I put just as much emphasis on the means.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I understand many of you feel it's "forced" and object. But what is the point - is it not to help build a better, more responsible society? Many of you argue that because this is forced, it misses the point, yet couldn't you make the same exact case of the educational system we have? We force children to go to school in which case many of them are taught or learning things they have zero interest in and more importantly have zero chance of every applying in life or adding to society. Is that a bad system too? Fact is we have our education system setup (in theory) because it is supposed to help society in the end - the very same thing this new program offers.
"A better, more responsible society" to whom??? Stop implying universal values where they don't exist. Human beings will seek out and work for value. If the things you talk about had such universal values, people would not need to be forced en masse into them.
Compulsory education is, in itself, a form of slavery even if, in your opinion, it makes "a better, more responsible society".
So having a nation of socially responsible people isn't something that we should strive for?
It's certainly something you should strive for, yes. There are many things you should strive for. Something's existence as a desirable, however, does not justify any means you use to reach it.
Having a nation of people who are conditioned by their governments to behave in an officially sanctioned socially responsible manner isn't something we should strive for.
Having a nation of people who willingly help one another is.
Very nice!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Maybe FFG can jump in here and explain where such an arrangement is provided for in the grant of federal powers within the constitution. I mean, since he seems to be so convinced that this is an exchange of labor for benefit, and is all hunky-dorey.
Also, like i said, it is specifically in contradiction with the principle of GENERAL welfare. You have now moved to a society which provides for the SELECTED welfare of a "voluntary" few.
I maintain that this is above the mandates provided for federal government, and therefore not okay.
again, regardless of any benefit.
and accuse me of biased partisan bullshit all you want.
no one in this thread has addressed the fundamental concernt that such an act is not within the constitutional limits of government authority.
:(
Because its optional. How don't you get that? If you don't want to spend 100 hours of your life for community service then don't.
If you do you get a $4000 credit towards tuition.
Seems very simple to understand. It's still the freedom of choice we've always had in this country.
10/31/2000 (****)
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10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
I think the main point is that though. If it helps kids and parents in varying aspects what's the harm? And aren't curriculums and needs to graduate different in many, many places as well? I never had something like this in school and albeit kids may not love it, in the long term would hopefully recognize it's importance as would responsible adults.
I keep hearing from many, that they don't argue the impact, but instead don't like being "forced" to do so. But let me ask this, how much of the mandatory things in children's schools are absolutely necessary, yet you have no complaints about them being mandatory? Does a child really need certain levels of math above the norm which aren't applied unless your a doctor or scientist or similar? Should a child be forced to read specific books and told what the meaning is supposed to be? All these things are totally unnessary and arbitrary at best when it comes down to the facts, yet something like this which directly impacts society for the better is an issue?
from your point of view, as you define it, that may be the point.
creating responsible human beings is very, very different than what I see here, and with this proposed dynamic...a dynamic that already exists where I live.
While arguing against the point, the point continues to be missed.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I can't believe that we are debating an oped written by a neoconservative who tends to take the extreme point of view only to get attention. The assertion that Barack's program initiative violates the 13th amendment is ludicrous.
“Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened.”
So are you saying we should undo the educational system in our society because it is forced?
We live in a world where money rules all. People are forced to go to school and then forced into the workplace to make ends meat. This is the society and civilization we have not only taken on, but embrace and push onto others. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is what we currently employee. If adjusting graduation requirements to include mandatory work time for the betterment of society then it's a step in the right direction for everyone. In college, these are called "internships". They aim to acclimate students to the real world. It's obvious internships aren't mandatory in all fields, mostly they are optional at best. So what is wrong with offering or employing such a program which helps the kids grow and gain experience, while it's a benefit to them, their family and society?
"A better, more responsible society" to whom??? Stop implying universal values where they don't exist. Human beings will seek out and work for value. If the things you talk about had such universal values, people would not need to be forced en masse into them.
Compulsory education is, in itself, a form of slavery even if, in your opinion, it makes "a better, more responsible society".
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Because its optional. How don't you get that? If you don't want to spend 100 hours of your life for community service then don't.
If you do you get a $4000 credit towards tuition.
Seems very simple to understand. It's still the freedom of choice we've always had in this country.
Apparently i am not allowed to explain this to you, because, according to FFG i am just acting on my ego and am displaying a very limited understanding of the constitution.
In MY OPINION, offering credits to SOME people based on their actions goes against the principles of our constitution. It violates the concept of providing for the GENERAL welfare, and instead provides for the SELECTED welfare.
However, FFG has "rightly" explained to me that i am "cherry picking" and that, unless i am willing to devote all my efforts to the immediate task of shutting down the Department of Education -- which he reminds me the Supreme Court approves of -- i should just shut up.
I had no idea that my point of view was just a broad philosophical, legal, and political statement. That defending such "broad philospohical, and legal" concepts such as that of our constitution some how makes me come off as a pompous arrogant egotistical brat.
Further, FFG now has me confused, because he originaly railed me (twice no less) for calling this slavery. I see now, he seems to be calling it slavery.
??? WTF ???
Any way.
I'm done here.
Let the Obama-bators carry this thread in to the oblivion of obscure value judging and unsubstantiated expression of opinion.
:(
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I think the main point is that though. If it helps kids and parents in varying aspects what's the harm?
What I see is that this is the nice/nice people tell themselves, while the actual dynamic is nefarious, coercive and infringing.
And aren't curriculums and needs to graduate different in many, many places as well? I never had something like this in school and albeit kids may not love it, in the long term would hopefully recognize it's importance as would responsible adults.
I totally support my son recognizing the inherent contradiction in compulsory volunteering. I support him feeling his feelings of opposition to this situation. On the other hand, I'm the volunteering/compassion queen. He knows this. My son is also one of the most idealist and intelligent people I know. He knows the concept of helping people, of selfless service, etc. It is very different than being coerced to do something nice. Even if we can get 70% of kids on board with a mindless adherence to authority, the principle cannot be justified. In the meantime, we create a majority of children who are being taught a distorted view of 'selfless service'...one that is not selfless service at all, but instead service in order to get something for self in return, and for fear of threat on some level.
I keep hearing from many, that they don't argue the impact, but instead don't like being "forced" to do so. But let me ask this, how much of the mandatory things in children's schools are absolutely necessary, yet you have no complaints about them being mandatory? Does a child really need certain levels of math above the norm which aren't applied unless your a doctor or scientist or similar? Should a child be forced to read specific books and told what the meaning is supposed to be? All these things are totally unnessary and arbitrary at best when it comes down to the facts, yet something like this which directly impacts society for the better is an issue?
I've already answered this. Comparing one bad system to another and using that as justification for the first bad system is a flawed premise.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The 13th Admendment describes the difference between “free labor and unfree labor.” The Obama plan is not free labor. It includes expanding existing programs like AmeriCorps by three-fold, and the Peace Corps, among others. Secondly, it offers college students a $4,000 tax credit for 100 hours of community service. Obama would set a goal of 50 hours for high school and middle school students. The plan does not make that a requirement. He is essentially offering a tax credit to students if they volunteer their time. Sounds like a good idea.
Involuntary Servitude http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/1581fin.htm
Refers to a person held by actual force, threats of force, or threats of legal Coercion in a condition of slavery – compulsory service or labor against his or her will. This also includes the condition in which people are compelled to work against their will by a "climate of fear" evoked by the use of force, the threat of force, or the threat of legal coercion (i.e., suffer legal consequences unless compliant with demands made upon them) which is sufficient to compel service against a person's will. The first U.S. Supreme Court case to uphold the ban against involuntary servitude was Bailey v. Alabama (1911).
Forced Labor http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/1581fin.htm
Labor or service obtained by threats of serious harm or physical restraint; by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause a person to believe they would suffer serious harm or physical restraint if they did not perform such labor or services:by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process.
don't be talking sensibly now...;)
far too many articles lately, with not full content, out of context. glad others at least later post in entirety, and/or a link...for full disclosure and information.
i am against 'forced' service, but i like options and encouragement. so i think thus far, sounds good. certainly not a bad idea, at all.
So are you saying we should undo the educational system in our society because it is forced?
LOL...no. I'm saying you should remove the force in your forced systems. Then you'll find out their true value.
We live in a world where money rules all. People are forced to go to school and then forced into the workplace to make ends meat. This is the society and civilization we have not only taken on, but embrace and push onto others. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is what we currently employee. If adjusting graduation requirements to include mandatory work time for the betterment of society then it's a step in the right direction for everyone. In college, these are called "internships". They aim to acclimate students to the real world. It's obvious internships aren't mandatory in all fields, mostly they are optional at best.
"Forced volunteering", something this plan does not amount to, wherein you are criminalizing the act of saying no, is actual force and, in the event that labor is taking place, amounts to slavery. To say that "people are forced to go to school" fits that standard. Criminal penalties exist for the act of not going to school or, more aptly, not sending your kids to school.
People are not "forced into the workplace" as there is no criminalization of not working. Millions of people don't work. Many have never worked. Any attempt, however, to criminalize not working, would then mean that people were in fact "forced into the workplace".
So what is wrong with offering or employing such a program which helps the kids grow and gain experience, while it's a benefit to them, their family and society?
There's nothing wrong with "kids growing and gaining experience, while it benefits them, their family and society". That's a great thing. Employing a tax credit to achieve this is not a terrible approach, but it's not a) a great approach as you have people doing it for poor reasons and b) it's an approach better left to the states.
Actually employing criminal penalties for not "volunteering" is absolutely insane and violates nearly every decent principle of American thought. To suggest that children, college students, or adults somehow have an obligation to your definition of "benefits" or "betterment" is to suggest that you have little regard for human freedoms, alternative perspectives, or humility.
Further, FFG now has me confused, because he originaly railed me (twice no less) for calling this slavery. I see now, he seems to be calling it slavery.
This plan, as Obama proposes it, it not slavery. The arguments of some here seem to be, however, as they propose compulsory community service without a connection to direct benefit or actual choice.
People are taught behavior, ideas and beliefs. I'm sure your child albeit figuring out lots on his own, got much of his patterns from you and others - correct? That is no-more "infriging" than a program aimed at the same outcome. Our educational system isn't going to change, but we can change some aspects of it in order to help benefit society and those being educated in the process. That's all this program aims to do and can do. Also, installing a program that reinforces view of selfless-service or similar is silly. Everyone and everywhere in society already has that well instilled - blaming this kind of program certainly wouldn't be the guilty party. I'm also pretty certain that if someone is a responsible parent, they install these things into their children on their own and don't look to government and school as moral teachers in shaping such important ideas in their children. Perhaps that's the problem in itself?
What I see is that this is the nice/nice people tell themselves, while the actual dynamic is nefarious, coercive and infringing.
I totally support my son recognizing the inherent contradiction in compulsory volunteering. I support him feeling his feelings of opposition to this situation. On the other hand, I'm the volunteering/compassion queen. He knows this. My son is also one of the most idealist and intelligent people I know. He knows the concept of helping people, of selfless service, etc. It is very different than being coerced to do something nice. Even if we can get 70% of kids on board with a mindless adherence to authority, the principle cannot be justified. In the meantime, we create a majority of children who are being taught a distorted view of 'selfless service'...one that is not selfless service at all, but instead service in order to get something for self in return, and for fear of threat on some level.
I've already answered this. Comparing one bad system to another and using that as justification for the first bad system is a flawed premise.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I disagree with much of what you stated and won't keep going back and forth as we'll begin to repeat ourselves.
But I would like to make this one comment in response to this: "To suggest that children, college students, or adults somehow have an obligation to your definition of "benefits" or "betterment" is to suggest that you have little regard for human freedoms, alternative perspectives, or humility."
Have a look around our society. We are no longer the bastion of hope, pillar of freedoms and experts of humility and similar. Generically speaking (collectively), we are a selfish, self-interested society filled with people looking out for themselves, while the government sets the climate. Most people are more concerned about their own bs, then helping out their fellow citizens and similar. This fact is apparent in just about every aspect of our daily lives. We see it on the news, read about it in the papers... it's who we are (either because we believe it or enable it). It is who we are because we have been taught to be and act this way, mostly because it is how to be the most successful in our civilization. There's no undoing this notion without creating a new system (something most do not want to do). But something we can alter, are ways to enact the same type of characteristics and benefits which bold well towards the way we want our society and civilization to be. Whether it's something small like volunteering (which this program addresses) or basic tenets of being a good, responsible citizen and person (things we could all easily agree on).
LOL...no. I'm saying you should remove the force in your forced systems. Then you'll find out their true value.
"Forced volunteering", something this plan does not amount to, wherein you are criminalizing the act of saying no, is actual force and, in the event that labor is taking place, amounts to slavery. To say that "people are forced to go to school" fits that standard. Criminal penalties exist for the act of not going to school or, more aptly, not sending your kids to school.
People are not "forced into the workplace" as there is no criminalization of not working. Millions of people don't work. Many have never worked. Any attempt, however, to criminalize not working, would then mean that people were in fact "forced into the workplace".
There's nothing wrong with "kids growing and gaining experience, while it benefits them, their family and society". That's a great thing. Employing a tax credit to achieve this is not a terrible approach, but it's not a) a great approach as you have people doing it for poor reasons and b) it's an approach better left to the states.quote]
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Funny how a Bush Sr. policy that has been around for more than 15 years all of sudden has been transformed into an Obama is Pro Slavery policy. The same mandatory community service policy that has endured and been expanded upon throughout both the Clinton and Bush Jr. administrations.
1989-1990
President George H.W. Bush creates the Office of National Service in the White House and the Points of Light Foundation to foster volunteering.
1990
President Bush signs the National and Community Service Act of 1990 into law. The legislation authorizes grants to schools to support service-learning through Serve America (now known as Learn and Serve America) and demonstration grants for national service programs to youth corps, nonprofits, and colleges and universities.
1992
A bipartisan group of Senators drafts legislation to create the National Civilian Community Corps as a way to explore how to use post-Cold War military resources to help solve problems here at home.
The Maryland State Board of Education adopts a mandatory service requirement to graduate from high school.
1993
The Association of Supervision and Curriculum Development endorses the importance of linking service with learning.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Comments
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
So as long as the end is paradise, the means can be compulsion and that is ok?
To answer your last 2 questions:
No; and whose values and morals?
That's fine, so are you saying if they called it something other than volunteering you would be ok with it. They had that at my high school when I was a kid and I believe they called it community service. The service I did was way better than a lot of the other crap I had to do for homework, it taught me a lot about paying my dues and gave me the experience so that it turned into an actual job by the summer.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
So having a nation of socially responsible people isn't something that we should strive for?
And as far as whos morals, my idea of this sort of service program would leave that up to the kids/parents. If working in a homeless shelter is something that fits in with your morals, then great... if that doesn't do it for you and you'd rather help clean up a nature area, then great too... if it means helping with a church program to spend time with elderly members of the congregation, then that qualifies too...
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
My parents made me "volunteer" at a hospital as a candy striper when I was in high school. I hated them for it, but looking back it was a great experience and even at the time felt like I was contributing to society. Not only that but it gave me some knowledge about pain, suffering and poverty..which, growing up in a white upper-middle class lifestyle, I had never known.
And then later I was able to put it on a resume.
Kids are very smart.
Which is why my son tells me many of his friends have falsified their hours in order to graduate. It is not the act of honour those in authority would like to impose on them and that it looks like in theory...forcing kids to volunteer. It's something very different.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
creating responsible human beings is very, very different than what I see here, and with this proposed dynamic...a dynamic that already exists where I live.
While arguing against the point, the point continues to be missed.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
LOL...
Dude, you can cherry pick all you'd like. If this plan infuriates you, that's fine with me. Your reaction, however, amuses me, and your attempts to link this to "slavery" are silly -- and that's from someone who believes a lot of government plans amount to slavery.
The DOE absolutely could be believed to be unconstitutional, but the Supreme Court (the body the Constitution designates as its interpreter) does not. So you need to be a bit more careful with these kinds of statements.
LOL...this plan "shatters" nothing. It's just yet another tax credit for behavior the federal government wishes to subsidize.
No offense, but you have no monopoly on "understanding what the supreme law of the land IS", nor are you defending much except for your ego and your distaste for Obama.
Your point of view is a broad philosophical, legal, and political statement. Applying it to such a small issue makes you look worse than the issue itself. If you have a broad beef with federal excercises in education financing (which is a very good beef), then you'd be wiser to actually debate this through the context of the DoE's existence, the vast amount of money and influence they wield, and the poor results they've achieved relative to tax payer returns and student potential. Doing it like this simply makes you look like you have a hard-on for Obama.
Involuntary Servitude http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/1581fin.htm
Refers to a person held by actual force, threats of force, or threats of legal Coercion in a condition of slavery – compulsory service or labor against his or her will. This also includes the condition in which people are compelled to work against their will by a "climate of fear" evoked by the use of force, the threat of force, or the threat of legal coercion (i.e., suffer legal consequences unless compliant with demands made upon them) which is sufficient to compel service against a person's will. The first U.S. Supreme Court case to uphold the ban against involuntary servitude was Bailey v. Alabama (1911).
Forced Labor http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/1581fin.htm
Labor or service obtained by threats of serious harm or physical restraint; by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause a person to believe they would suffer serious harm or physical restraint if they did not perform such labor or services:by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process.
And yet, that's a whole other story, beyond the inherent flaws in forced volunteering.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Of course it's comparable. It's not the same, but it's comparable. Anytime you force a human being to labor for you, it's slavery. It doesn't matter what your intentions are or your justications are, nor do the conditions or labor need to be the same as in 19th century america.
Having a nation of people who are conditioned by their governments to behave in an officially sanctioned socially responsible manner isn't something we should strive for.
Having a nation of people who willingly help one another is.
I LOVE the idea of volunteering, and my kids and I do it. I LOVE the idea of helping build a better community, helping people out of tough situations, etc...
I HATE any notion of government forcing me to do those things. Some of you seem quite comfortable having the ends justify the means. I put just as much emphasis on the means.
"A better, more responsible society" to whom??? Stop implying universal values where they don't exist. Human beings will seek out and work for value. If the things you talk about had such universal values, people would not need to be forced en masse into them.
Compulsory education is, in itself, a form of slavery even if, in your opinion, it makes "a better, more responsible society".
It's certainly something you should strive for, yes. There are many things you should strive for. Something's existence as a desirable, however, does not justify any means you use to reach it.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Because its optional. How don't you get that? If you don't want to spend 100 hours of your life for community service then don't.
If you do you get a $4000 credit towards tuition.
Seems very simple to understand. It's still the freedom of choice we've always had in this country.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
I keep hearing from many, that they don't argue the impact, but instead don't like being "forced" to do so. But let me ask this, how much of the mandatory things in children's schools are absolutely necessary, yet you have no complaints about them being mandatory? Does a child really need certain levels of math above the norm which aren't applied unless your a doctor or scientist or similar? Should a child be forced to read specific books and told what the meaning is supposed to be? All these things are totally unnessary and arbitrary at best when it comes down to the facts, yet something like this which directly impacts society for the better is an issue?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
We live in a world where money rules all. People are forced to go to school and then forced into the workplace to make ends meat. This is the society and civilization we have not only taken on, but embrace and push onto others. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is what we currently employee. If adjusting graduation requirements to include mandatory work time for the betterment of society then it's a step in the right direction for everyone. In college, these are called "internships". They aim to acclimate students to the real world. It's obvious internships aren't mandatory in all fields, mostly they are optional at best. So what is wrong with offering or employing such a program which helps the kids grow and gain experience, while it's a benefit to them, their family and society?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Apparently i am not allowed to explain this to you, because, according to FFG i am just acting on my ego and am displaying a very limited understanding of the constitution.
In MY OPINION, offering credits to SOME people based on their actions goes against the principles of our constitution. It violates the concept of providing for the GENERAL welfare, and instead provides for the SELECTED welfare.
However, FFG has "rightly" explained to me that i am "cherry picking" and that, unless i am willing to devote all my efforts to the immediate task of shutting down the Department of Education -- which he reminds me the Supreme Court approves of -- i should just shut up.
I had no idea that my point of view was just a broad philosophical, legal, and political statement. That defending such "broad philospohical, and legal" concepts such as that of our constitution some how makes me come off as a pompous arrogant egotistical brat.
Further, FFG now has me confused, because he originaly railed me (twice no less) for calling this slavery. I see now, he seems to be calling it slavery.
??? WTF ???
Any way.
I'm done here.
Let the Obama-bators carry this thread in to the oblivion of obscure value judging and unsubstantiated expression of opinion.
:(
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I totally support my son recognizing the inherent contradiction in compulsory volunteering. I support him feeling his feelings of opposition to this situation. On the other hand, I'm the volunteering/compassion queen. He knows this. My son is also one of the most idealist and intelligent people I know. He knows the concept of helping people, of selfless service, etc. It is very different than being coerced to do something nice. Even if we can get 70% of kids on board with a mindless adherence to authority, the principle cannot be justified. In the meantime, we create a majority of children who are being taught a distorted view of 'selfless service'...one that is not selfless service at all, but instead service in order to get something for self in return, and for fear of threat on some level.
I've already answered this. Comparing one bad system to another and using that as justification for the first bad system is a flawed premise.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
don't be talking sensibly now...;)
far too many articles lately, with not full content, out of context. glad others at least later post in entirety, and/or a link...for full disclosure and information.
i am against 'forced' service, but i like options and encouragement. so i think thus far, sounds good. certainly not a bad idea, at all.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
LOL...no. I'm saying you should remove the force in your forced systems. Then you'll find out their true value.
"Forced volunteering", something this plan does not amount to, wherein you are criminalizing the act of saying no, is actual force and, in the event that labor is taking place, amounts to slavery. To say that "people are forced to go to school" fits that standard. Criminal penalties exist for the act of not going to school or, more aptly, not sending your kids to school.
People are not "forced into the workplace" as there is no criminalization of not working. Millions of people don't work. Many have never worked. Any attempt, however, to criminalize not working, would then mean that people were in fact "forced into the workplace".
There's nothing wrong with "kids growing and gaining experience, while it benefits them, their family and society". That's a great thing. Employing a tax credit to achieve this is not a terrible approach, but it's not a) a great approach as you have people doing it for poor reasons and b) it's an approach better left to the states.
Actually employing criminal penalties for not "volunteering" is absolutely insane and violates nearly every decent principle of American thought. To suggest that children, college students, or adults somehow have an obligation to your definition of "benefits" or "betterment" is to suggest that you have little regard for human freedoms, alternative perspectives, or humility.
This plan, as Obama proposes it, it not slavery. The arguments of some here seem to be, however, as they propose compulsory community service without a connection to direct benefit or actual choice.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
But I would like to make this one comment in response to this: "To suggest that children, college students, or adults somehow have an obligation to your definition of "benefits" or "betterment" is to suggest that you have little regard for human freedoms, alternative perspectives, or humility."
Have a look around our society. We are no longer the bastion of hope, pillar of freedoms and experts of humility and similar. Generically speaking (collectively), we are a selfish, self-interested society filled with people looking out for themselves, while the government sets the climate. Most people are more concerned about their own bs, then helping out their fellow citizens and similar. This fact is apparent in just about every aspect of our daily lives. We see it on the news, read about it in the papers... it's who we are (either because we believe it or enable it). It is who we are because we have been taught to be and act this way, mostly because it is how to be the most successful in our civilization. There's no undoing this notion without creating a new system (something most do not want to do). But something we can alter, are ways to enact the same type of characteristics and benefits which bold well towards the way we want our society and civilization to be. Whether it's something small like volunteering (which this program addresses) or basic tenets of being a good, responsible citizen and person (things we could all easily agree on).
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
1989-1990
President George H.W. Bush creates the Office of National Service in the White House and the Points of Light Foundation to foster volunteering.
1990
President Bush signs the National and Community Service Act of 1990 into law. The legislation authorizes grants to schools to support service-learning through Serve America (now known as Learn and Serve America) and demonstration grants for national service programs to youth corps, nonprofits, and colleges and universities.
1992
A bipartisan group of Senators drafts legislation to create the National Civilian Community Corps as a way to explore how to use post-Cold War military resources to help solve problems here at home.
The Maryland State Board of Education adopts a mandatory service requirement to graduate from high school.
1993
The Association of Supervision and Curriculum Development endorses the importance of linking service with learning.
http://www.nationalservice.gov/about/role_impact/history_timeline.asp