People are taught behavior, ideas and beliefs. I'm sure your child albeit figuring out lots on his own, got much of his patterns from you and others - correct? That is no-more "infriging" than a program aimed at the same outcome.
No matter what my 'programming', or that of the school, society or what have you, the inherent contradiction with coercive volunteering exists. Even when many don't see or understand it.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I agree that 'compulsory volunteerism' is an oxymoron, although I'm not sure this is what Obama is proposing. I do have a question, though. Is there anyone here that believes in the abolition of compulsory education for children (those under 18)?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I really don't have a strong opinion either way ... except for I'm kind of against the government forcing anybody to do anything. Also, I'm not really clear on the specifics of the Obama plan. However ...
1989-1990
President George H.W. Bush creates the Office of National Service in the White House and the Points of Light Foundation to foster volunteering.
"Fostering" volunteerism and "forcing" volunteerism are two different things. if I recall correctly, the 1000 pts of light program basically just recognized people for the good works they performed of their own accord. Not the same thing as (apparently) Obama is proposing.
1990
President Bush signs the National and Community Service Act of 1990 into law. The legislation authorizes grants to schools to support service-learning through Serve America (now known as Learn and Serve America) and demonstration grants for national service programs to youth corps, nonprofits, and colleges and universities.
This is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's the same as what Obama is proposing either. Here, the government is offering grants -- that's extra money -- to schools in order to assist with these projects. These projects aren't mandatory. The Obama plan -- if I'm reading correctly, and it's possible that I'm not -- would actually WITHHOLD funding from schools that didn't force their kids to perform these kind of services. There's a difference.
1992
A bipartisan group of Senators drafts legislation to create the National Civilian Community Corps as a way to explore how to use post-Cold War military resources to help solve problems here at home.
I don't see what this has to do with this thread at all.
The Maryland State Board of Education adopts a mandatory service requirement to graduate from high school.
This is the state board of education, not the federal government.
1993
The Association of Supervision and Curriculum Development endorses the importance of linking service with learning.
Again, this is "endorsing" service. Not forcing. Plus, I'm not sure what the Association of Supervision and Curriculum Development is in the first place. Is it affiliated with the federal government at all?
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
I agree that 'compulsory volunteerism' is an oxymoron, although I'm not sure this is what Obama is proposing. I do have a question, though. Is there anyone here that believes in the abolition of compulsory education for children (those under 18)?
No. As I said earlier, I am generally against the government forcing people to do much of anything.
But I think basic education is important enough that the government should be allowed to require it.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Is there anyone here that believes in the abolition of compulsory education for children (those under 18)?
I personally accept 'what is' as is. I certainly don't believe in imposing my beliefs on anyone, so therefore I am not behind any sweeping movements for anyone.
It's obvious that as our systems evolve to more and more healthy, functioning levels, things will look dramatically different in all levels of human systems. And for me, it's obvious that this evolution will include the falling by the wayside of much that occurs at this point in time, including what goes down in the school systems.
I do believe that most of our human systems, as is, consistently contribute to humans being disconnected from life.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I agree that 'compulsory volunteerism' is an oxymoron, although I'm not sure this is what Obama is proposing. I do have a question, though. Is there anyone here that believes in the abolition of compulsory education for children (those under 18)?
The problem I see is that our nation is already getting dumber and more lazy as our technology increases. There is no reason to learn math or science when we have the internet and computers to figure everything out for us. No time to read when we have 500 digital channels to watch.
Making school not a requirement will just facilitate this process in my view.
A lot of people think we have a nation of sheep as it is, how will keeping them uneducated help matters???
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
The problem I see is that our nation is already getting dumber and more lazy as our technology increases. There is no reason to learn math or science when we have the internet and computers to figure everything out for us. No time to read when we have 500 digital channels to watch.
Making school not a requirement will just facilitate this process in my view.
A lot of people think we have a nation of sheep as it is, how will keeping them uneducated help matters???
Let me see if I understand your chronology here:
1. NATION MAKES EDUCATION COMPULSORY
2. PEOPLE DONT LEARN MATH AND SCIENCE
3. NATION REPEALS COMPULSORY EDUCATION
4. PEOPLE CONTINUE TO NOT LEARN MATH AND SCIENCE
You're suggesting #3 is bad because of #4, even though #2 is the same as #4 and #2 preceded #3?
The problem I see is that our nation is already getting dumber and more lazy as our technology increases.
This is key...we're getting dumber and lazier as our technology increases, and when in full swing with forced education. I'm not sure adding more of the same is the solution....
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
So we shouldn't force kids to go to school or volunteer. That's fine.
What are kids supposed to do all day? How are middle class families who have both parents work supposed to care for there kids if they have no where to go.
What are the solutions to mandatory education?
I would love to hear some ideas because the way I see it the kids would be home all day and parents would either have to pay for day care or they would leave the kids home alone and left to there own devices.
If you have some sort of day center set up then that would be paid with tax dollars.
And what about the kids that do want an education. The gov't doesn't spend enough on education as it is, how would that improve if it wasn't even mandatory.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
1. NATION MAKES EDUCATION COMPULSORY
2. PEOPLE DONT LEARN MATH AND SCIENCE
3. NATION REPEALS COMPULSORY EDUCATION
4. PEOPLE CONTINUE TO NOT LEARN MATH AND SCIENCE
You're suggesting #3 is bad because of #4, even though #2 is the same as #4 and #2 preceded #3?
I learned math and science because I enjoyed going to school. Some kids will not have some knowledge stick as easily as me and will struggle through High School. But that struggle can still prepare them for a successful life because they accomplished something that didn't come natural to them.
If you think that kids wouldn't cause trouble if they didn't have to go to school then I want some of what you're smoking especially since I'm dry for a couple of days...
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
What are kids supposed to do all day? How are middle class families who have both parents work supposed to care for there kids if they have no where to go.
Are you suggesting that the American public is paying $827 billion per year for babysitters?
Anyway, there is a little-known event that occurs each year known as "summer vacation". It is arguably more educational than its counterpart and people somehow find a way to prevent their children from turning into looting and killing hordes during this period.
What are the solutions to mandatory education?
Non-madatory education.
I would love to hear some ideas because the way I see it the kids would be home all day and parents would either have to pay for day care or they would leave the kids home alone and left to there own devices.
LOL...
I don't think anyone is suggesting doing away with schools.
If you have some sort of day center set up then that would be paid with tax dollars.
Why "tax dollars"?
And what about the kids that do want an education. The gov't doesn't spend enough on education as it is, how would that improve if it wasn't even mandatory.
We, today, spend $10,000 per child per year on so-called "education". I would hesitate to suggest that isn't "enough". What I would suggest is that it's not spent correctly.
ooh wee..........well, you are lucky that I have to go to a doctor's appointment.;) But I do have one more question, since you raised your hand and all, do you also believe in the abolition of all child-specific laws, like those against child labor and child sex?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
This is key...we're getting dumber and lazier as our technology increases, and when in full swing with forced education. I'm not sure adding more of the same is the solution....
I think without making education manditory you are just making the problem worse. I think for the most part from what I have seen in my life, the people who don't think they need to bother with school are the ones who need education the most. I mean except for a few rare exceptions if you think you can be successful in life without finishing high school, you probably aren't that smart to begin with.
I learned math and science because I enjoyed going to school. Some kids will not have some knowledge stick as easily as me and will struggle through High School. But that struggle can still prepare them for a successful life because they accomplished something that didn't come natural to them.
I don't discount that at all. You're absolutely correct. That, however, does not give you any right to force anyone to go to school, except perhaps your own children.
If you think that kids wouldn't cause trouble if they didn't have to go to school then I want some of what you're smoking especially since I'm dry for a couple of days...
How do you explain the fact that society doesn't collapse every June?
Ok, but here's the main issue: How much of actually what kids are taught in school is so necessary that they can't function in society? And to what extent? The average human being doesn't need most of the science, math, history and many other areas taught to them past the basics because it isn't mandatory to function in society. So with that said, you're realistically talking about educating kids the absolute basics of the core subjects which is pretty much done by 6-8th grade at the absolute max.
important enough as in "can't function in society without it."
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I would love to hear some ideas because the way I see it the kids would be home all day and parents would either have to pay for day care or they would leave the kids home alone and left to there own devices.
This is why I'm not for implementing more sweeping change to correct imbalance, when we'll merely shift the imbalance. I'm for resolving imbalance.
And the only true solution in resolving imbalance is happening at all times, independent of our basic and complete ignorance of it....evolution continues on at all times. The true 'flaw' is in our human based ideology that we project onto nature as we try to overcome nature or move beyond it.
We're building this metaphorical ladder to God...we're eating of the apple, thinking we can gain knowledge and overcome reality. And really, as we grow and progress and actually resolve the contradictions - the 'higher' we climb - we find that when we just open our eyes, we're in the midst of a Garden of Eden all along.
The necessarily changes will happen individually within humans and will not come from external rule.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
ooh wee..........well, you are lucky that I have to go to a doctor's appointment.;) But I do have one more question, since you raised your hand and all, do you also believe in the abolition of all child-specific laws, like those against child labor and child sex?
I do not believe there should be child labor laws outside of those protecting children from forced labor.
I'm not sure what you mean by "child sex" laws. If you mean removing any legal age limit on sexual activity, yes. If you mean removing laws that protect children from rape or any kind of sexual assault, no.
No matter what my 'programming', or that of the school, society or what have you, the inherent contradiction with coercive volunteering exists. Even when many don't see or understand it.
Ok, but here's the main issue: How much of actually what kids are taught in school is so necessary that they can't function in society? And to what extent? The average human being doesn't need most of the science, math, history and many other areas taught to them past the basics because it isn't mandatory to function in society. So with that said, you're realistically talking about educating kids the absolute basics of the core subjects which is pretty much done by 6-8th grade at the absolute max.
I'm talking reading and writing skills for younger kids.
I'm talking critical thinking and analysis skills for older kids.
I'm talking basic social skills for kids of all ages -- how to interact with people.
I'm talking preparation for the future. How do you know you'd like to be a scientist if you've never been exposed to science?
There's nothing wrong -- and certainly much that is beneficial -- about requiring kids to go to school through a certain age.
Another point: Having some experience with the field of education, I can tell you there are a lot of worthless parents out there. I would be absolutely horrified to think what would happen if these people were the sole guardians of a kid's education. Many of them, sad to say, are highly uneducated themselves. I'm sad to report you're putting way too much faith in them to turn out well-rounded, responsible, well-functioning members of society.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Comments
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
"Fostering" volunteerism and "forcing" volunteerism are two different things. if I recall correctly, the 1000 pts of light program basically just recognized people for the good works they performed of their own accord. Not the same thing as (apparently) Obama is proposing.
This is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's the same as what Obama is proposing either. Here, the government is offering grants -- that's extra money -- to schools in order to assist with these projects. These projects aren't mandatory. The Obama plan -- if I'm reading correctly, and it's possible that I'm not -- would actually WITHHOLD funding from schools that didn't force their kids to perform these kind of services. There's a difference.
I don't see what this has to do with this thread at all.
This is the state board of education, not the federal government.
Again, this is "endorsing" service. Not forcing. Plus, I'm not sure what the Association of Supervision and Curriculum Development is in the first place. Is it affiliated with the federal government at all?
for the least they could possibly do
No. As I said earlier, I am generally against the government forcing people to do much of anything.
But I think basic education is important enough that the government should be allowed to require it.
for the least they could possibly do
It's obvious that as our systems evolve to more and more healthy, functioning levels, things will look dramatically different in all levels of human systems. And for me, it's obvious that this evolution will include the falling by the wayside of much that occurs at this point in time, including what goes down in the school systems.
I do believe that most of our human systems, as is, consistently contribute to humans being disconnected from life.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
:raises hand:
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
LOL...
Can you define "important enough"?
The problem I see is that our nation is already getting dumber and more lazy as our technology increases. There is no reason to learn math or science when we have the internet and computers to figure everything out for us. No time to read when we have 500 digital channels to watch.
Making school not a requirement will just facilitate this process in my view.
A lot of people think we have a nation of sheep as it is, how will keeping them uneducated help matters???
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Let me see if I understand your chronology here:
1. NATION MAKES EDUCATION COMPULSORY
2. PEOPLE DONT LEARN MATH AND SCIENCE
3. NATION REPEALS COMPULSORY EDUCATION
4. PEOPLE CONTINUE TO NOT LEARN MATH AND SCIENCE
You're suggesting #3 is bad because of #4, even though #2 is the same as #4 and #2 preceded #3?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
What are kids supposed to do all day? How are middle class families who have both parents work supposed to care for there kids if they have no where to go.
What are the solutions to mandatory education?
I would love to hear some ideas because the way I see it the kids would be home all day and parents would either have to pay for day care or they would leave the kids home alone and left to there own devices.
If you have some sort of day center set up then that would be paid with tax dollars.
And what about the kids that do want an education. The gov't doesn't spend enough on education as it is, how would that improve if it wasn't even mandatory.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
important enough as in "can't function in society without it."
for the least they could possibly do
I learned math and science because I enjoyed going to school. Some kids will not have some knowledge stick as easily as me and will struggle through High School. But that struggle can still prepare them for a successful life because they accomplished something that didn't come natural to them.
If you think that kids wouldn't cause trouble if they didn't have to go to school then I want some of what you're smoking especially since I'm dry for a couple of days...
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Are you suggesting that the American public is paying $827 billion per year for babysitters?
Anyway, there is a little-known event that occurs each year known as "summer vacation". It is arguably more educational than its counterpart and people somehow find a way to prevent their children from turning into looting and killing hordes during this period.
Non-madatory education.
LOL...
I don't think anyone is suggesting doing away with schools.
Why "tax dollars"?
We, today, spend $10,000 per child per year on so-called "education". I would hesitate to suggest that isn't "enough". What I would suggest is that it's not spent correctly.
Yet countless societies, including our own, functioned without it.
ooh wee..........well, you are lucky that I have to go to a doctor's appointment.;) But I do have one more question, since you raised your hand and all, do you also believe in the abolition of all child-specific laws, like those against child labor and child sex?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I think without making education manditory you are just making the problem worse. I think for the most part from what I have seen in my life, the people who don't think they need to bother with school are the ones who need education the most. I mean except for a few rare exceptions if you think you can be successful in life without finishing high school, you probably aren't that smart to begin with.
I don't discount that at all. You're absolutely correct. That, however, does not give you any right to force anyone to go to school, except perhaps your own children.
How do you explain the fact that society doesn't collapse every June?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Good luck getting a job if you can't read or write.
for the least they could possibly do
And the only true solution in resolving imbalance is happening at all times, independent of our basic and complete ignorance of it....evolution continues on at all times. The true 'flaw' is in our human based ideology that we project onto nature as we try to overcome nature or move beyond it.
We're building this metaphorical ladder to God...we're eating of the apple, thinking we can gain knowledge and overcome reality. And really, as we grow and progress and actually resolve the contradictions - the 'higher' we climb - we find that when we just open our eyes, we're in the midst of a Garden of Eden all along.
The necessarily changes will happen individually within humans and will not come from external rule.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I do not believe there should be child labor laws outside of those protecting children from forced labor.
I'm not sure what you mean by "child sex" laws. If you mean removing any legal age limit on sexual activity, yes. If you mean removing laws that protect children from rape or any kind of sexual assault, no.
I'm talking reading and writing skills for younger kids.
I'm talking critical thinking and analysis skills for older kids.
I'm talking basic social skills for kids of all ages -- how to interact with people.
I'm talking preparation for the future. How do you know you'd like to be a scientist if you've never been exposed to science?
There's nothing wrong -- and certainly much that is beneficial -- about requiring kids to go to school through a certain age.
Another point: Having some experience with the field of education, I can tell you there are a lot of worthless parents out there. I would be absolutely horrified to think what would happen if these people were the sole guardians of a kid's education. Many of them, sad to say, are highly uneducated themselves. I'm sad to report you're putting way too much faith in them to turn out well-rounded, responsible, well-functioning members of society.
for the least they could possibly do
Healing comes from within. When doctors are successful in facilitating healing, it is because they activate the natural healing we possess within.
True education is to educe, or beckon forth from within individuals, what they already know.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Changing the number won't lower my hand.
And the only way to "read or write" is to participate in a compulsory education system???