One of the reasons Bin Laden attacked America on 9/11 is that we showed weakness in Mogadishu (rent Black Hawk Down). Osama saw that once times get tough America will turn and run (thanks Bill)....on 9/11 he attacked the US expecting us to curl up in a ball and fold, this didn't happened now he is running, waiting for the next person to take over and pull everyone out
This is ridiculous.
First you can't compare a helicopter in Mogadishu with the new york world trade center. Second, everyone in the whole world from Ben Laden to Bush to my 75 year old neighbour knew, at the moment they saw the footage of 9/11, that shit would hit the fan and someone would have to pay for that. Who would expect a country to back out after such an attack? Especially the us?
The main reason why Ben Laden attacked america is because there is a large hatred for America in the middle east due to their ties with Israel and such an attack would prove to be extremly popular for the group that did it.
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Sure, I have no problem with questioning things but some things have to be taken for what they are worth before pointing the finger....if one year from now it is determined VP Cheney was jet skiing out on the water and was yelling at a bunch of Navy boys "I am coming for you" then yeah, I am all for a revolution but so far it seems that a country that hates America is fucking around with our soldiers during a time of war I think all needed measures should be taken...they were not which once again shows Americas weakness.....OK now you ask why this is brought up.
One of the reasons Bin Laden attacked America on 9/11 is that we showed weakness in Mogadishu (rent Black Hawk Down). Osama saw that once times get tough America will turn and run (thanks Bill)....on 9/11 he attacked the US expecting us to curl up in a ball and fold, this didn't happened now he is running, waiting for the next person to take over and pull everyone out...I could go on forever with this but I am tired and just do not feel like debating.
....so instead I will say that Rise (demo) from Into the Wild fucking rocks
This so weak from the onset and makes no sense. If the US wants to use this as a precursor to war then we've really sunk to a new low to starting our new mantra "preemptive war".
Even drug boats get warning shots and when they don't stop the engine gets taken out. Then we close in and scoop them up. However to start a war or even talk of a war over this is TOTALLY ridiculous.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
This so weak from the onset and makes no sense. If the US wants to use this as a precursor to war then we've really sunk to a new low to starting our new mantra "preemptive war".
Even drug boats get warning shots and when they don't stop the engine gets taken out. Then we close in and scoop them up. However to start a war or even talk of a war over this is TOTALLY ridiculous.
Peace
'A new low' you say?
You mean U.S foriegn policy was above this level of scheming and lies before the recent incident with Iran? As the original thread strater pointed out - look at The Gulf of Tonkin incident for an historical precedent. Or maybe even Pearl Harbour, or 9/11 if you really wanna get your teeth into something.
Ok so now the iranians have released a video of the confritation. However, they don't show their boats confronting the US Navy ships. This leads me to believe that the videos that the US released were not fake so I want to hear everyones explanations that were saying there is no way the videos were real.
Comments of "yeah, they can produce this video but there isn't a video of the Pentagon". Well the Iranians produced a video too.
So what are the conspiracies now?
Is the US video authentic up until the point where they show the boats harassing the US ships? Or could it possibly be that the video produced is in fact what happened and thankfully cooler heads prevailed?
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
I think most here acknowledge the incident as having happened.
We just think its really lame of ole Georgie to try and use it as media fodder for a case on wiping Iran off the map, when the fact is the confrontation is a result of our antagonistic relationship with the region (face it, WE invaded and attacked the middle east for no reason other than to suit our own INTERESTS, NOT our defense) ... and now, with warships off the coast of a nation that - suprise suprise - doesn't have many good feelings towards us right now ... we end up getting a little "razzled" by little ole speedboats from said nation, and all of a sudden its "WATCH OUT! WE NEED WAR! THESE CRAZY FUCKING IRANIANS!" ...
Hell,
i mean, all we did was invade their neighbor without the consent of the UN, and in clear violation of international law, and uh ... you know ... we never really DECLARED war ... but ... or ... uh ... had proof of anything ... or whatever ... and yeah ... if germany had tried that on canada, and had their warships off the coast of maine near canada ... you think we might be a little irritated?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I think most here acknowledge the incident as having happened.
We just think its really lame of ole Georgie to try and use it as media fodder for a case on wiping Iran off the map, when the fact is the confrontation is a result of our antagonistic relationship with the region (face it, WE invaded and attacked the middle east for no reason other than to suit our own INTERESTS, NOT our defense) ... and now, with warships off the coast of a nation that - suprise suprise - doesn't have many good feelings towards us right now ... we end up getting a little "razzled" by little ole speedboats from said nation, and all of a sudden its "WATCH OUT! WE NEED WAR! THESE CRAZY FUCKING IRANIANS!" ...
Hell,
i mean, all we did was invade their neighbor without the consent of the UN, and in clear violation of international law, and uh ... you know ... we never really DECLARED war ... but ... or ... uh ... had proof of anything ... or whatever ... and yeah ... if germany had tried that on canada, and had their warships off the coast of maine near canada ... you think we might be a little irritated?
You want get an arguement from me that we shouldn't be over there, but the fact is we are there and probably for the rest of our lifetimes there will be an American presence in the Middle East. That part of the world will always be in turmoil. And as long as that is a fact of life, charging US ships with speedboats is a serious action that could be answered with force. And you say they are just speedboats as if they couldn't harm the US ship when in fact it could do substantial damage and cost lives.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
You want get an arguement from me that we shouldn't be over there, but the fact is we are there and probably for the rest of our lifetimes there will be an American presence in the Middle East. That part of the world will always be in turmoil. And as long as that is a fact of life, charging US ships with speedboats is a serious action that could be answered with force. And you say they are just speedboats as if they couldn't harm the US ship when in fact it could do substantial damage and cost lives.
why must you (US) be there? ... and why for the rst of your lives?
why must you (US) be there? ... and why for the rst of your lives?
I don't want them there. But how long has there been a US presence in the Middle East? They were in the Middle East before this bullshit war began and they will be there for a very long time to come.
The reason is oil. America and our allies, not just America, are dependent on oil from the middle east. As long as there is turmoil in the Middle East, which there always will be, and as long as we are dependent on oil there will be a presence there to protect our interests.
Do I agree with it? No fucking way. I wish there weren't any American soldiers based anywhere outside the US. But that isn't reality and this is.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
I don't want them there. But how long has there been a US presence in the Middle East? They were in the Middle East before this bullshit war began and they will be there for a very long time to come.
The reason is oil. America and our allies, not just America, are dependent on oil from the middle east. As long as there is turmoil in the Middle East, which there always will be, and as long as we are dependent on oil there will be a presence there to protect our interests.
Do I agree with it? No fucking way. I wish there weren't any American soldiers based anywhere outside the US. But that isn't reality and this is.
You don't think that maybe if we just got off everyones ass, and just traded kindly and generous with them (the A-rabs) that all would be well?
You think if we didn't procure our oil by force that they wouldn't be selling it to us oftheir on volition?
Perhaps you should think about the HUGE loss of DEMAND they would be facing if they were not SUPPLYING the US.
Ie ... their profits would DROP SUBSTANTIALY.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
You don't think that maybe if we just got off everyones ass, and just traded kindly and generous with them (the A-rabs) that all would be well?
You think if we didn't procure our oil by force that they wouldn't be selling it to us oftheir on volition?
Perhaps you should think about the HUGE loss of DEMAND they would be facing if they were not SUPPLYING the US.
Ie ... their profits would DROP SUBSTANTIALY.
No I don't think it we got off everyones ass that the A-rabs would be all well. That part of the world has had conflicts going on for over a thousand years.
If we can find some alternative energy then we can stop having them supply the US. We are getting closer to making alternative energy mainstream but we just aren't there yet, and until that time comes there will be a US presence there whether you and I like it or not. And the reason they will be there is that part of the world is unstable with or without our presence.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
it is routine for local boats to harass military ships.. happens all the time. The only thing different hear is Bush talking about it. When we patrol foreign waters and bomb their neighbors - they harass because they can get away with it.. it is simple protest. Not news worthy at all. Bush wants it to be news so he pretends its news. Anyone that listens to that ass hole has brain damage.
it is routine for local boats to harass military ships.. happens all the time. The only thing different hear is Bush talking about it. When we patrol foreign waters and bomb their neighbors - they harass because they can get away with it.. it is simple protest. Not news worthy at all. Bush wants it to be news so he pretends its news. Anyone that listens to that ass hole has brain damage.
it is routine for local boats to harass military ships.. happens all the time. The only thing different hear is Bush talking about it. When we patrol foreign waters and bomb their neighbors - they harass because they can get away with it.. it is simple protest. Not news worthy at all. Bush wants it to be news so he pretends its news. Anyone that listens to that ass hole has brain damage.
Well I don't listen to Bush so I guess I don't have brain damage.
But where is there proof that this happens all the time?
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
'A new low' you say?
You mean U.S foriegn policy was above this level of scheming and lies before the recent incident with Iran? As the original thread strater pointed out - look at The Gulf of Tonkin incident for an historical precedent. Or maybe even Pearl Harbour, or 9/11 if you really wanna get your teeth into something.
I think you've misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that Bush is using this incident like the Gulf of Tonkin, especially Pearl Harbour and 9/II to drum up meager support to attack Iran in some quick bombing sorties. In fact he's looking for ANY action to start up the war machine for action against Iran.
The speed boat actions might be real but that voice over business sounds like something totally made up.
"I'm coming for you......" Please! Sounds like something one might hear at a bad Halloween party.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Ok so now the iranians have released a video of the confritation. However, they don't show their boats confronting the US Navy ships. This leads me to believe that the videos that the US released were not fake so I want to hear everyones explanations that were saying there is no way the videos were real.
Comments of "yeah, they can produce this video but there isn't a video of the Pentagon". Well the Iranians produced a video too.
So what are the conspiracies now?
Is the US video authentic up until the point where they show the boats harassing the US ships? Or could it possibly be that the video produced is in fact what happened and thankfully cooler heads prevailed?
...
The fact is that George W. Bush's word is about as reliable as that Ahchoomeinheadadad clown... they are both lying pieces of shit.
The way you handle it... the way a U.S. President handles it... go on record via an official address to a worldwide audience and state that the U.S. will defend its warships in international waters from any threat from any nation. This is their warning shot. repeat the incidents of 06January2008 and you get ONE warning shot from the 5 inch main weapon. Failure to break off the aggressive will result in prompt and final military action by our naval personel.
...
The way a lying, bullshitting piece of shit handles it... ref. George W. Bush's response.
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U.S. war provocation against Iran: Another Tonkin Gulf?
Take Action NOW to Stop War on Iran!
The Bush Administration has initiated an extremely dangerous war provocation just off Iran's coast, in the Strait of Hormuz. With Bush on his way to the Middle East to mobilize a collection of oil-rich U.S. client states against Iran, the U.S. government is working overtime to create a public-relations incident to heighten tensions in the region and threaten a new war. We must take action now to Stop War on Iran.
On Jan. 6, the U.S. Navy alleged that a "confrontation" took place between three massive guided-missile U.S. attack vessels and five small, open Iranian speedboats at the entrance to the Persian Gulf in the world's most important and busiest sea lanes. The Navy even produced a video purporting to show the Iranian speedboats approaching the U.S. warships.
HELP BUILD A GRASSROOTS MOBILIZATION TO STOP A U.S. ATTACK ON IRAN!
NO Phony Provocations!
In the coming days, we must mobilize like never before to Stop War on Iran! We need your help to do this. Please consider making an emergency donation at http://stopwaroniran.org/donate.shtml.
But the Iranian media on Jan. 9 quoted an Iranian official as saying, “Images released by the U.S. Department of Defense about the Navy vessels were made from file pictures, and the audio was fabricated."
Nearly five years ago, the Bush Administration, with active collaboration from Congress and the media, led the U.S. into war, claiming that Iraq possessed chemical and nuclear weapons and that the people of Iraq were behind the attacks on 9/11. Now the Bush Administration is clearly grasping for some excuse - any excuse - to attack Iran. Once the National Intelligence Estimate revealed that Bush has been lying about Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons program, the hawks in his Administration have begun looking for any justification, real or fabricated, to sell a military attack they have been planning for years.
The real provocation here doesn’t come from Iran. The U.S. currently has half of its Navy off the coast of Iran, including nuclear-armed aircraft carriers, guided-missile destroyers, frigates, cruisers and submarines.
Meanwhile, Bush is spending eight days visiting Kuwait, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Saudi Arabia. The purpose of his trip is to convince these corrupt, feudal regimes, which are dependent U.S.-client states, that Iran represents a dangerous threat, in preparation for a U.S. attack.
U.S. warships a constant threat
The U.S. Navy has again and again held major war games to plan for and stage just such a confrontation with Iran. The Pentagon has announced that it has already set targets on thousands of sites in Iran.
Even the video released to the media - if looked at closely- belies the very story that is being drummed up by the Bush administration. It shows five small open-air Iranian speedboats buzzing in the distance, far from the USS Hopper. Iranian boats have every right to patrol and defend their own coastal waters.
It should be noted that, according to the Pentagon’s own description, the USS Hopper is a guided-missile destroyer. It carries an M240 machine gun that can fire 10 armor-piercing projectiles per second and is capable of carrying nuclear missiles that can destroy whole cities. This high-tech ship weighs 8,373 tons and measures 504 feet in length. It was traveling in convoy with the USS Port Royal--a guided-missile cruiser that weighs 9,600 tons fully loaded and has a length of 567 feet and is also capable of firing Tomahawk cruise missiles--and the guided-missile frigate USS Ingraham, weighing 4,100 tons and measuring 445 feet in length.
These three deadly ships are just a small part of the U.S. Navy armada arrayed off the Iranian coast.
We Must Act Now to Stop War on Iran
No New Tonkin Gulf!
Even after 16 of the top U.S. spy agencies publicly released a National Intelligence Estimate concluding that Iran has no nuclear program, at least since 2003, nor nuclear weapons, the Bush administration has continued to threaten Iran.
It is important to remember that the massive U.S. bombing of Vietnam and the Johnson administration's escalation of the war was preceded by reports of an attack on a U.S. destroyer in the Gulf of Tonkin off the coast of Vietnam - which years later was finally admitted to be phony.
On Aug. 2 and 4, 1964, the Pentagon claimed that small Vietnamese boats had fired on the USS Maddox and another destroyer in the Gulf of Tonkin. Lyndon Johnson used this "attack" as pretext for ramming a resolution through Congress giving him the power and funds to wage war on Vietnam.
Johnson's own papers later revealed it was a fraud, and later Defense Secretary Robert McNamara admitted in the film "Fog of War" that the whole incident had been phony.
Nearly all the Republicans and Democrats in both houses of Congress, including the present major contenders for the presidential nomination, voted for resolutions against Iran. In a staged or fraudulent confrontation with Iran, with wild charges from the corporate-owned media, Congressional opposition is highly unlikely. The only force that will stop an attack on a Iran is a massive, grassroots campaign.
This cannot go forward with talks of war with Iran.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
No I don't think it we got off everyones ass that the A-rabs would be all well.
I didn't say things "would be ALL WELL" ... that wasn't even the point in contention ...
You said the war is "about oil" ... thats it.
O-I-L
You can procure oil by trade!
Our money is just as good as any other nations ...
BWAH HA HA ...
ok, at least it WAS just as good as any other nations.
:rolleyes:
until we started this bullshit war,
and had to print up more "money" (cough, debt) to finance it.
Bottom line,
US economic output, which thrives on HUGE inputs of oil, is a irreplaceable commodity to the Arabs, just as that oil is irreplaceable to us.
Things being "all well" in 'arabia' is an ARAB problem, not an American problem.
And the Israelis have freaking nukes, if that is where you are about to sidebar the convo.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
US Navy threat may not have been Iranian
Article from: Agence France-Presse
Email article:Email
Print article:Print
From correspondents in Dubai
January 11, 2008 08:35am
THE US navy says there is "no way to know" if a threat radioed to US warships in the Strait of Hormuz came from Iranian speedboats, casting doubt on the earlier US version of Sunday's confrontation.
But he said "the Iranian fastboats were acting in a very provocative and aggressive manner'' towards the US warships in the strategic waterway at the time.
The Pentagon released a video and audiotape this week which it said confirmed US charges that Iranian speedboats swarmed around the US ships on Sunday and also radioed a threat to blow them up.
But overnight Iran released its own video to counter the charges, showing the crew of a speedboat contacting an American sailor via radio, asking him to identify the US vessels and state their purpose.
US Navy threat may not have been Iranian
Article from: Agence France-Presse
Email article:Email
Print article:Print
From correspondents in Dubai
January 11, 2008 08:35am
THE US navy says there is "no way to know" if a threat radioed to US warships in the Strait of Hormuz came from Iranian speedboats, casting doubt on the earlier US version of Sunday's confrontation.
But he said "the Iranian fastboats were acting in a very provocative and aggressive manner'' towards the US warships in the strategic waterway at the time.
The Pentagon released a video and audiotape this week which it said confirmed US charges that Iranian speedboats swarmed around the US ships on Sunday and also radioed a threat to blow them up.
But overnight Iran released its own video to counter the charges, showing the crew of a speedboat contacting an American sailor via radio, asking him to identify the US vessels and state their purpose.
wtf
So another fabricated, sensationalized incident....which was a huge story at first, and might just get ignored as the story implodes.
I hope this "provocation" doesn't become "fact" to the majority...like the Ahmadinejad misquote....we'll see how much play this gets in the US in the morning (and next few days)...but I'm guessing very little.
I didn't say things "would be ALL WELL" ... that wasn't even the point in contention ...
You said the war is "about oil" ... thats it.
O-I-L
You can procure oil by trade!
Our money is just as good as any other nations ...
BWAH HA HA ...
ok, at least it WAS just as good as any other nations.
:rolleyes:
until we started this bullshit war,
and had to print up more "money" (cough, debt) to finance it.
Bottom line,
US economic output, which thrives on HUGE inputs of oil, is a irreplaceable commodity to the Arabs, just as that oil is irreplaceable to us.
Things being "all well" in 'arabia' is an ARAB problem, not an American problem.
And the Israelis have freaking nukes, if that is where you are about to sidebar the convo.
I agree with most of what you are saying but you did say if "we just traded kindly and generous with them (the A-rabs) that all would be well?"
All I am trying to say is no that wouldn't solve everything because of the importance of that oil to our country.
We could have perfect trade relations with Arab countries for oil but because of the instability of the region there will always be a military presence there. As much as i hate that, I just think that is reality.
I also did hear a story on the news last night saying that the message sent over the radio could have possibly come from land and not the boats. But the previous poster was correct about this being ignored by the media. As much as people are fed up with Bush you would think a media source would run with this part of the story and say something about it but everyone keeps quiet and makes it a little blurb in their news.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
I agree with most of what you are saying but you did say if "we just traded kindly and generous with them (the A-rabs) that all would be well?"
All I am trying to say is no that wouldn't solve everything because of the importance of that oil to our country.
We could have perfect trade relations with Arab countries for oil but because of the instability of the region there will always be a military presence there. As much as i hate that, I just think that is reality.
I also did hear a story on the news last night saying that the message sent over the radio could have possibly come from land and not the boats. But the previous poster was correct about this being ignored by the media. As much as people are fed up with Bush you would think a media source would run with this part of the story and say something about it but everyone keeps quiet and makes it a little blurb in their news.
well if i said that, i apologize.
lol.
looks like i threw my OWN argument off kilt.
not sure i agree about needing a military presence, though.
Its arab oil, and they will be SELLING it to us.
Makes no sense as a buyer to have to protect a seller.
If the arabs want to continue to make money selling THEIR oil, THEY need to PROTECT it.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
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* Gareth Porter: Official Version of U.S.-Iranian Naval Incident Starts to
Unravel *
The United States has lodged a formal diplomatic protest against Iran for
its ³provocation² in the Strait of Hormuz on Sunday morning. But new
information reveals that the alleged Iranian threat to American naval
vessels may have been blown out of proportion. We speak to investigative
historian Gareth Porter.
This is a interesting read, lets see how long this situation will be perpetuated.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
That was Bush and Cheney disguised with turbins driving those speed boats.
Heh, what was it they said the verbal threat was? "we are coming to you now and you will blow up" or some shit like that? Come on... sounds like something some aide in Cheney's office came up with.
Not quite Tonkin 2, but it sure smells of it. Of course W is going to look for a provocation before he leaves office. Surprised he didnt do it a year ago.
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So called "Curveball" spy was used to start the war in Iraq and now this weak attempt to use this to start another for Smart Bomb attack on Iran.
Sad case America has become. :(
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Comments
First you can't compare a helicopter in Mogadishu with the new york world trade center. Second, everyone in the whole world from Ben Laden to Bush to my 75 year old neighbour knew, at the moment they saw the footage of 9/11, that shit would hit the fan and someone would have to pay for that. Who would expect a country to back out after such an attack? Especially the us?
The main reason why Ben Laden attacked america is because there is a large hatred for America in the middle east due to their ties with Israel and such an attack would prove to be extremly popular for the group that did it.
This so weak from the onset and makes no sense. If the US wants to use this as a precursor to war then we've really sunk to a new low to starting our new mantra "preemptive war".
Even drug boats get warning shots and when they don't stop the engine gets taken out. Then we close in and scoop them up. However to start a war or even talk of a war over this is TOTALLY ridiculous.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
'A new low' you say?
You mean U.S foriegn policy was above this level of scheming and lies before the recent incident with Iran? As the original thread strater pointed out - look at The Gulf of Tonkin incident for an historical precedent. Or maybe even Pearl Harbour, or 9/11 if you really wanna get your teeth into something.
Comments of "yeah, they can produce this video but there isn't a video of the Pentagon". Well the Iranians produced a video too.
So what are the conspiracies now?
Is the US video authentic up until the point where they show the boats harassing the US ships? Or could it possibly be that the video produced is in fact what happened and thankfully cooler heads prevailed?
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We just think its really lame of ole Georgie to try and use it as media fodder for a case on wiping Iran off the map, when the fact is the confrontation is a result of our antagonistic relationship with the region (face it, WE invaded and attacked the middle east for no reason other than to suit our own INTERESTS, NOT our defense) ... and now, with warships off the coast of a nation that - suprise suprise - doesn't have many good feelings towards us right now ... we end up getting a little "razzled" by little ole speedboats from said nation, and all of a sudden its "WATCH OUT! WE NEED WAR! THESE CRAZY FUCKING IRANIANS!" ...
Hell,
i mean, all we did was invade their neighbor without the consent of the UN, and in clear violation of international law, and uh ... you know ... we never really DECLARED war ... but ... or ... uh ... had proof of anything ... or whatever ... and yeah ... if germany had tried that on canada, and had their warships off the coast of maine near canada ... you think we might be a little irritated?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
You want get an arguement from me that we shouldn't be over there, but the fact is we are there and probably for the rest of our lifetimes there will be an American presence in the Middle East. That part of the world will always be in turmoil. And as long as that is a fact of life, charging US ships with speedboats is a serious action that could be answered with force. And you say they are just speedboats as if they couldn't harm the US ship when in fact it could do substantial damage and cost lives.
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why must you (US) be there? ... and why for the rst of your lives?
I don't want them there. But how long has there been a US presence in the Middle East? They were in the Middle East before this bullshit war began and they will be there for a very long time to come.
The reason is oil. America and our allies, not just America, are dependent on oil from the middle east. As long as there is turmoil in the Middle East, which there always will be, and as long as we are dependent on oil there will be a presence there to protect our interests.
Do I agree with it? No fucking way. I wish there weren't any American soldiers based anywhere outside the US. But that isn't reality and this is.
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You don't think that maybe if we just got off everyones ass, and just traded kindly and generous with them (the A-rabs) that all would be well?
You think if we didn't procure our oil by force that they wouldn't be selling it to us oftheir on volition?
Perhaps you should think about the HUGE loss of DEMAND they would be facing if they were not SUPPLYING the US.
Ie ... their profits would DROP SUBSTANTIALY.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
No I don't think it we got off everyones ass that the A-rabs would be all well. That part of the world has had conflicts going on for over a thousand years.
If we can find some alternative energy then we can stop having them supply the US. We are getting closer to making alternative energy mainstream but we just aren't there yet, and until that time comes there will be a US presence there whether you and I like it or not. And the reason they will be there is that part of the world is unstable with or without our presence.
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Well I don't listen to Bush so I guess I don't have brain damage.
But where is there proof that this happens all the time?
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lol...what a bullshit non story...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I think you've misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that Bush is using this incident like the Gulf of Tonkin, especially Pearl Harbour and 9/II to drum up meager support to attack Iran in some quick bombing sorties. In fact he's looking for ANY action to start up the war machine for action against Iran.
The speed boat actions might be real but that voice over business sounds like something totally made up.
"I'm coming for you......" Please! Sounds like something one might hear at a bad Halloween party.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
The fact is that George W. Bush's word is about as reliable as that Ahchoomeinheadadad clown... they are both lying pieces of shit.
The way you handle it... the way a U.S. President handles it... go on record via an official address to a worldwide audience and state that the U.S. will defend its warships in international waters from any threat from any nation. This is their warning shot. repeat the incidents of 06January2008 and you get ONE warning shot from the 5 inch main weapon. Failure to break off the aggressive will result in prompt and final military action by our naval personel.
...
The way a lying, bullshitting piece of shit handles it... ref. George W. Bush's response.
Hail, Hail!!!
This cannot go forward with talks of war with Iran.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I didn't say things "would be ALL WELL" ... that wasn't even the point in contention ...
You said the war is "about oil" ... thats it.
O-I-L
You can procure oil by trade!
Our money is just as good as any other nations ...
BWAH HA HA ...
ok, at least it WAS just as good as any other nations.
:rolleyes:
until we started this bullshit war,
and had to print up more "money" (cough, debt) to finance it.
Bottom line,
US economic output, which thrives on HUGE inputs of oil, is a irreplaceable commodity to the Arabs, just as that oil is irreplaceable to us.
Things being "all well" in 'arabia' is an ARAB problem, not an American problem.
And the Israelis have freaking nukes, if that is where you are about to sidebar the convo.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Article from: Agence France-Presse
Email article:Email
Print article:Print
From correspondents in Dubai
January 11, 2008 08:35am
THE US navy says there is "no way to know" if a threat radioed to US warships in the Strait of Hormuz came from Iranian speedboats, casting doubt on the earlier US version of Sunday's confrontation.
But he said "the Iranian fastboats were acting in a very provocative and aggressive manner'' towards the US warships in the strategic waterway at the time.
The Pentagon released a video and audiotape this week which it said confirmed US charges that Iranian speedboats swarmed around the US ships on Sunday and also radioed a threat to blow them up.
But overnight Iran released its own video to counter the charges, showing the crew of a speedboat contacting an American sailor via radio, asking him to identify the US vessels and state their purpose.
and
http://www.antiwar.com/porter/?articleid=12191
So another fabricated, sensationalized incident....which was a huge story at first, and might just get ignored as the story implodes.
I hope this "provocation" doesn't become "fact" to the majority...like the Ahmadinejad misquote....we'll see how much play this gets in the US in the morning (and next few days)...but I'm guessing very little.
I agree with most of what you are saying but you did say if "we just traded kindly and generous with them (the A-rabs) that all would be well?"
All I am trying to say is no that wouldn't solve everything because of the importance of that oil to our country.
We could have perfect trade relations with Arab countries for oil but because of the instability of the region there will always be a military presence there. As much as i hate that, I just think that is reality.
I also did hear a story on the news last night saying that the message sent over the radio could have possibly come from land and not the boats. But the previous poster was correct about this being ignored by the media. As much as people are fed up with Bush you would think a media source would run with this part of the story and say something about it but everyone keeps quiet and makes it a little blurb in their news.
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well if i said that, i apologize.
lol.
looks like i threw my OWN argument off kilt.
not sure i agree about needing a military presence, though.
Its arab oil, and they will be SELLING it to us.
Makes no sense as a buyer to have to protect a seller.
If the arabs want to continue to make money selling THEIR oil, THEY need to PROTECT it.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Unravel *
The United States has lodged a formal diplomatic protest against Iran for
its ³provocation² in the Strait of Hormuz on Sunday morning. But new
information reveals that the alleged Iranian threat to American naval
vessels may have been blown out of proportion. We speak to investigative
historian Gareth Porter.
Listen/Watch/Read
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/11/us_backs_off_claim_of_naval
This is a interesting read, lets see how long this situation will be perpetuated.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Heh, what was it they said the verbal threat was? "we are coming to you now and you will blow up" or some shit like that? Come on... sounds like something some aide in Cheney's office came up with.
Probabaly with more than a few patrol boats too.
Why is this a story..well, we know why ...but
A US Destroyer couldn't handle 4 Iranian PAtrol Boats? This entire episode is rediculous.
So called "Curveball" spy was used to start the war in Iraq and now this weak attempt to use this to start another for Smart Bomb attack on Iran.
Sad case America has become. :(
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)