What was provided were a couple of soundbites taken out of context. There IS no discussion without context. It's like when the news media airs one carefully selected sentence taken from an hour long interview and completely changes the meaning of a person's statements. Its an old trick that means nothing.
You asked for one passage from a religious text that condoned killing. A few were provided. You didn't say anything about context.
In fact, if you're asking for one passage, you're specifically asking for something out of context.
Killing is condoned by passages in the Bible. There's no getting around that.
The thing is, us "unbelievers" understand context, and many do look at the Bible in an historical frame. However, and I'm not sure cornifer has ever done this or not, we will also throw out passages like that when similar measures are used against us. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are ripe for these types of back-and-forths:
CRAZED BELIEVER: Gays are an abomonation!!
FROTHING UNBELIEVER: SO ARE SHELLFISH!!!
CRAZED BELIEVER: Women must be subservient to their husbands!!
FROTHING UNBELIEVER: Or be stoned to death!!
And on and on for eternity. From my end, it's more a comment on why individual passages shouldn't be used to push a belief.
Except for my response to cornifer. That was more of a logic thing.
yeah, but you're taking it to the extreme though. i'm sure there's people that stand out in public saying radical things like "gays are an abomonation" and "women are men's slaves" but the majority of people don't. i'm sure you're aware of it and i know you're just making a point.
but what i am saying is throwing these things as "back and forth" really holds no challenge to what we believe. if you read the bible as you say you do then you should understand that in the days of God's covenant with Abraham it was a completely different mindset. all the killings, and pillages were based on the choices the Israelites made. this is a very deep discussion... so i'm not going further... i'm just saying whhy these arguments don't mean a single cent to me, or to someone that really reads the bible. you could read it simply as a piece of literature and come up with the same thing. or maybe not... it depends. but other than that i completely understand where you're coming from.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
The thing is, us "unbelievers" understand context, and many do look at the Bible in an historical frame. However, and I'm not sure cornifer has ever done this or not, we will also throw out passages like that when similar measures are used against us. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are ripe for these types of back-and-forths:
CRAZED BELIEVER: Gays are an abomonation!!
FROTHING UNBELIEVER: SO ARE SHELLFISH!!!
CRAZED BELIEVER: Women must be subservient to their husbands!!
FROTHING UNBELIEVER: Or be stoned to death!!
And on and on for eternity. From my end, it's more a comment on why individual passages shouldn't be used to push a belief.
Except for my response to cornifer. That was more of a logic thing.
In which case the "crazed-believer" is equally guilty. Changes nothing.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
They all ask you to suspend reason and submit your life to the elite who write the religion.
So... yes.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
yeah, but you're taking it to the extreme though. i'm sure there's people that stand out in public saying radical things like "gays are an abomonation" and "women are men's slaves" but the majority of people don't. i'm sure you're aware of it and i know you're just making a point.
Oh, I see them. I used to see them almost every day. As I'm sure many know, prior to the storm New Orleans was a prime destination for crazed weirdos. Not all of them were crazed heathen weirdos, though.
but what i am saying is throwing these things as "back and forth" really holds no challenge to what we believe. if you read the bible as you say you do then you should understand that in the days of God's covenant with Abraham it was a completely different mindset. all the killings, and pillages were based on the choices the Israelites made. this is a very deep discussion... so i'm not going further... i'm just saying whhy these arguments don't mean a single cent to me, or to someone that really reads the bible. you could read it simply as a piece of literature and come up with the same thing. or maybe not... it depends. but other than that i completely understand where you're coming from.
Well, see, now you're just endorsing moral relativism.
Same old tired rhetoric. *yawn*
Allow me to ask, yet again. Maybe, although i really doubt it, you'll be the first to answer. Can you point to one passage, in any "religious" holy book, that condones killing?
in the 619 commandments (you know the top 10); the true translation is
"thou shat not murder". killing for a good reason is ok. just as you would kill a rabid dog; you must also kill men that cannot live among men. sure; you think it's better to lock them up in cages so small you'd be arrested for animal cruelty if you kept an animal in them. but killing them allows them to be born again.
if an atheist was persecuted for his beliefs; he would strike back as so many have on this board. a reasonable person would fight for their freedom.
Well, not really. Sound bite references from the Old testament book of Leviticus aren't nearly enough to make a case that the the Bible or Bible based faith encourages and condones ruthless killing. i guess we're forgetting that "thou shalt not kill" part.
Furthermore when placed in context of history and geography when and where folks were banging anything that moved, man, woman or beast, and when mixed in with the fact that the Bible also makes the claim that the wages of ALL sin is death, not just sexual debauchery, and we have a bit more context and perspective. Factor in the concept of Old and New covenant (i don't want to get to deep into theology) and what you end up with likens citing a couple of Leviticus verses to randomly, with eyes shut, putting a finger down on one sentence from chapter five of "War and Peace" and using it to summarize the entire works of Tolstoy.
You're going to have to butress an argument with a little more than that to convince any rational person that the Bible encourages cold hearted killing.
In summation... *yawn*.
edit: i've not encountered one SERIOUS bible teaching church or synogogue that encourages members of congregation to go forth and stone an adultress.
..
Let's recap:
Cornnifer Asks the question:
"Can you point to one passage, in any "religious" holy book, that condones killing?"
Cosmo answers by giving one passage... no, two passages. and includes the full context of another.
Cornnifer's panties roll up the butt.
...
You asked... i answered... you back peddle.
...
and IF... as you claim... those Old Testaments chapters are invalid in today's world... WHY even bother with them? You are basically saying the Old Testament is old laws that are still on the books.
But... isn't Exodus and Leviticus where the Ten Commandments come from? How can the Old Testament be invalid, yet vital to Christianity? Or... do the Ten Commandments get tossed out, too?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If they are removing them from a time, place, yawn, etc. Then why exactly are you telling me about a book from at least 2000 years ago that has no relevence or bearing on the modern world what so ever. Maybe your boy Jesus needs to come back and revamp it then if the teachings don't hold water when you are in the discussion.
...................
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Oh, I see them. I used to see them almost every day. As I'm sure many know, prior to the storm New Orleans was a prime destination for crazed weirdos. Not all of them were crazed heathen weirdos, though.
Well, see, now you're just endorsing moral relativism.
i don't know what i'm endorsing.... cause i don't shiiiit!
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
..
...
and IF... as you claim... those Old Testaments chapters are invalid in today's world... WHY even bother with them? You are basically saying the Old Testament is old laws that are still on the books.
But... isn't Exodus and Leviticus where the Ten Commandments come from? How can the Old Testament be invalid, yet vital to Christianity? Or... do the Ten Commandments get tossed out, too?
cosmo this is a religious discussion....please don't bring logic into this.....thanx....;)
..
Let's recap:
Cornnifer Asks the question:
"Can you point to one passage, in any "religious" holy book, that condones killing?"
Cosmo answers by giving one passage... no, two passages. and includes the full context of another.
Cornnifer's panties roll up the butt.
...
You asked... i answered... you back peddle.
...
and IF... as you claim... those Old Testaments chapters are invalid in today's world... WHY even bother with them? You are basically saying the Old Testament is old laws that are still on the books.
But... isn't Exodus and Leviticus where the Ten Commandments come from? How can the Old Testament be invalid, yet vital to Christianity? Or... do the Ten Commandments get tossed out, too?
no... see the ten commandments were fulfilled in us who have believed in Jesus Christ. therefore, we don't need to follow the old laws because they were already accomplished and it's all due to Jesus.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
what? religions were written by the impoverished. i don't recall Jesus driving a rolls royce.
All you know of Jesus comes from the Bible, and all you know about its authors from the Bible as well. So you really don't know if you are being had.
If you take other evidence into consideration then you are definitely being had.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
In which case the "crazed-believer" is equally guilty. Changes nothing.
You're right, it doesn't.
However, you asked for one passage. By the very nature of the request, you're asking for something to be provided out of context. You can't then turn around and say "that doesn't count. It's out of context."
in the 619 commandments (you know the top 10); the true translation is
"thou shat not murder". killing for a good reason is ok. just as you would kill a rabid dog; you must also kill men that cannot live among men. sure; you think it's better to lock them up in cages so small you'd be arrested for animal cruelty if you kept an animal in them. but killing them allows them to be born again.
if an atheist was persecuted for his beliefs; he would strike back as so many have on this board. a reasonable person would fight for their freedom.
I'm sorry, but that's a pretty weak religious argument in favor of the death penalty.
no... see the ten commandments were fulfilled in us who have believed in Jesus Christ. therefore, we don't need to follow the old laws because they were already accomplished and it's all due to Jesus.
...
The Ten Commandments fulfilled by Jesus... That's another thing i will never understand... Jesus takes the rap for everyone that believes in Him... and nullifies the basics set into play by the Old Testament.
Does this mean Thou CAN Kill? Thou CAN steal? And Jesus takes the blame?
NO. But, the laws in the Old Testament are still in the books. They are still laws that modern societies 'CHOOSE' to ignore.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
what? religions were written by the impoverished. i don't recall Jesus driving a rolls royce.
You're right. If I remember my hymns correctly, it was a Ford.
I have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He was driving down the highway in a green and yellow Ford.
One hand on the bottle and the other on the throttle,
His Truth is marching on.......
yeah, it is... but if someone killed a beloved of mine i wouldn't know how i'd react... i might change my mind about the death penalty. God forbid.
I would want that person to die. If I caught the person in the act, I might do it myself.
But the things I want aren't always what's right.
Besides, the thing with the death penalty is that it's a penalty. A punishment carried out by the State. One that can't be undone. It's not just the death - it's the death by the State that I don't like.
If they are removing them from a time, place, yawn, etc. Then why exactly are you telling me about a book from at least 2000 years ago that has no relevence or bearing on the modern world what so ever. Maybe your boy Jesus needs to come back and revamp it then if the teachings don't hold water when you are in the discussion.
to 87% of the world; 2000 and 4000 year old texts are relevent today. they had to be written as they were to keep that relevance through out time. you can nit-pick anything to death. look at this board. it's done with every subject. just because you look and see nothing; doesn't mean there's nothing there. what you're saying is a 2000 year old document is not relevent although it has proven the test of time for 2000 years and a majority of the population find the relevence.
i think what you should be saying is YOU don't/cannot/will not see the relevence.
Jesus and his lawyer are coming back; but why should he revamp anything for you? most of the population sees. thus no need to revamp.
I'm gonna suggest he never existed at all, he's a mythical character, an anthropormophism of some twisted ideology.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
...
The Ten Commandments fulfilled by Jesus... That's another thing i will never understand... Jesus takes the rap for everyone that believes in Him... and nullifies the basics set into play by the Old Testament.
Does this mean Thou CAN Kill? Thou CAN steal? And Jesus takes the blame?
NO. But, the laws in the Old Testament are still in the books. They are still laws that modern societies 'CHOOSE' to ignore.
it's been accomplished... therefore we don't worry about doing good... goodness is already inside of us. if you focus on the life of Jesus and his words goodness becomes you. it's no more of jumping through hoops to get to happiness... it's simply on one thing only.... Jesus.
but if any man sins(which are basically the same things that you and i consider wrong, give or take a few other things)... Jesus will still be there to forgive you of your acts.
the "laws still being in the book" are vital and necessary for us to understand the plan of God. if all of a sudden the book had begun with Matthew... we wouldn't have understood them or known the reasons why.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
it's been accomplished... therefore we don't worry about doing good... goodness is already inside of us. if you focus on the life of Jesus and his words goodness becomes you. it's no more of jumping through hoops to get to happiness... it's simply on one thing only.... Jesus.
but if any man sins(which are basically the same things that you and i consider wrong, give or take a few other things)... Jesus will still be there to forgive you of your acts.
the "laws still being in the book" are vital and necessary for us to understand the plan of God. if all of a sudden the book had begun with Matthew... we wouldn't have understood them or known the reasons why.
Find any other human being, it could be a member of your congregation, or the person you respect the very most. Get into conversation about every moral issue you can possibly think of and eventually you will disagree. You will find that agreeance is ultimately arrived at by reason, not Jesus.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm sorry, but that's a pretty weak religious argument in favor of the death penalty.
i'm not arguing for the death penalty. simply answering a question posed. i do believe in culling the herd though. say i had a buffalo that was nothing but trouble. if i put it in an 5 foot by 8 foot pen i'd serve more jail time than if i killed a person. however; by killing the rouge buffalo; i'm simply culling the herd which is acceptable in our society.
Find any other human being, it could be a member of your congregation, or the person you respect the very most. Get into conversation about every moral issue you can possibly think of and eventually you will disagree. You will find that agreeance is ultimately arrived at by reason, not Jesus.
you're right... but i'm not talking about that. regardless if we disagree with certain issues... eventually it is the mindset of christ that will bring us in agreeance. please don't make me explain that. after all, you're an atheist.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
What was provided were a couple of soundbites taken out of context. There IS no discussion without context. It's like when the news media airs one carefully selected sentence taken from an hour long interview and completely changes the meaning of a person's statements. Its an old trick that means nothing.
...
See... this is EXACTLY what turns me away from Christianity. People who claim to be followers of Jesus and act like this.
This 'Old Trick' you speak of is EXACTLY what Christians use to justify their actions as sanctioned by the Bible:
Death penalty = "An eye for an eye".
Gay Marriage = "An abomination" (from Leviticus)
War = "I come not in Peace, but with the sword" - Jesus
and on and on and on and on...
...
Every example... one line, taken out of context. And old trick I learned back in my days as a Christian.
...
I didn't like the hypocracy back then... and i still don't like it. I'll find God along my own way.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
In fact, if you're asking for one passage, you're specifically asking for something out of context.
Killing is condoned by passages in the Bible. There's no getting around that.
HAS to be.
but what i am saying is throwing these things as "back and forth" really holds no challenge to what we believe. if you read the bible as you say you do then you should understand that in the days of God's covenant with Abraham it was a completely different mindset. all the killings, and pillages were based on the choices the Israelites made. this is a very deep discussion... so i'm not going further... i'm just saying whhy these arguments don't mean a single cent to me, or to someone that really reads the bible. you could read it simply as a piece of literature and come up with the same thing. or maybe not... it depends. but other than that i completely understand where you're coming from.
So... yes.
Well, see, now you're just endorsing moral relativism.
in the 619 commandments (you know the top 10); the true translation is
"thou shat not murder". killing for a good reason is ok. just as you would kill a rabid dog; you must also kill men that cannot live among men. sure; you think it's better to lock them up in cages so small you'd be arrested for animal cruelty if you kept an animal in them. but killing them allows them to be born again.
if an atheist was persecuted for his beliefs; he would strike back as so many have on this board. a reasonable person would fight for their freedom.
Let's recap:
Cornnifer Asks the question:
"Can you point to one passage, in any "religious" holy book, that condones killing?"
Cosmo answers by giving one passage... no, two passages. and includes the full context of another.
Cornnifer's panties roll up the butt.
...
You asked... i answered... you back peddle.
...
and IF... as you claim... those Old Testaments chapters are invalid in today's world... WHY even bother with them? You are basically saying the Old Testament is old laws that are still on the books.
But... isn't Exodus and Leviticus where the Ten Commandments come from? How can the Old Testament be invalid, yet vital to Christianity? Or... do the Ten Commandments get tossed out, too?
Hail, Hail!!!
...................
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
what? religions were written by the impoverished. i don't recall Jesus driving a rolls royce.
cosmo this is a religious discussion....please don't bring logic into this.....thanx....;)
All you know of Jesus comes from the Bible, and all you know about its authors from the Bible as well. So you really don't know if you are being had.
If you take other evidence into consideration then you are definitely being had.
However, you asked for one passage. By the very nature of the request, you're asking for something to be provided out of context. You can't then turn around and say "that doesn't count. It's out of context."
The Ten Commandments fulfilled by Jesus... That's another thing i will never understand... Jesus takes the rap for everyone that believes in Him... and nullifies the basics set into play by the Old Testament.
Does this mean Thou CAN Kill? Thou CAN steal? And Jesus takes the blame?
NO. But, the laws in the Old Testament are still in the books. They are still laws that modern societies 'CHOOSE' to ignore.
Hail, Hail!!!
I have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He was driving down the highway in a green and yellow Ford.
One hand on the bottle and the other on the throttle,
His Truth is marching on.......
But the things I want aren't always what's right.
Besides, the thing with the death penalty is that it's a penalty. A punishment carried out by the State. One that can't be undone. It's not just the death - it's the death by the State that I don't like.
to 87% of the world; 2000 and 4000 year old texts are relevent today. they had to be written as they were to keep that relevance through out time. you can nit-pick anything to death. look at this board. it's done with every subject. just because you look and see nothing; doesn't mean there's nothing there. what you're saying is a 2000 year old document is not relevent although it has proven the test of time for 2000 years and a majority of the population find the relevence.
i think what you should be saying is YOU don't/cannot/will not see the relevence.
Jesus and his lawyer are coming back; but why should he revamp anything for you? most of the population sees. thus no need to revamp.
you mean he did drive a rolls???
I'm gonna suggest he never existed at all, he's a mythical character, an anthropormophism of some twisted ideology.
but if any man sins(which are basically the same things that you and i consider wrong, give or take a few other things)... Jesus will still be there to forgive you of your acts.
the "laws still being in the book" are vital and necessary for us to understand the plan of God. if all of a sudden the book had begun with Matthew... we wouldn't have understood them or known the reasons why.
Find any other human being, it could be a member of your congregation, or the person you respect the very most. Get into conversation about every moral issue you can possibly think of and eventually you will disagree. You will find that agreeance is ultimately arrived at by reason, not Jesus.
i'm not arguing for the death penalty. simply answering a question posed. i do believe in culling the herd though. say i had a buffalo that was nothing but trouble. if i put it in an 5 foot by 8 foot pen i'd serve more jail time than if i killed a person. however; by killing the rouge buffalo; i'm simply culling the herd which is acceptable in our society.
See... this is EXACTLY what turns me away from Christianity. People who claim to be followers of Jesus and act like this.
This 'Old Trick' you speak of is EXACTLY what Christians use to justify their actions as sanctioned by the Bible:
Death penalty = "An eye for an eye".
Gay Marriage = "An abomination" (from Leviticus)
War = "I come not in Peace, but with the sword" - Jesus
and on and on and on and on...
...
Every example... one line, taken out of context. And old trick I learned back in my days as a Christian.
...
I didn't like the hypocracy back then... and i still don't like it. I'll find God along my own way.
Hail, Hail!!!