Atheists and religious kill people. However religion can make people kill who normally would not.
so can drugs and political ideology and hate for religion.
How do you know that those people would not normally kill? If people allow themselves to buy into a specific dogma and commit an act of murder they are acting normal for them, I would agree it's not normal from societal standards, but they may be acting perfectly normal for them.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Atheists and religious kill people. However religion can make people kill who normally would not.
Same old tired rhetoric. *yawn*
Allow me to ask, yet again. Maybe, although i really doubt it, you'll be the first to answer. Can you point to one passage, in any "religious" holy book, that condones killing?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Same old tired rhetoric. *yawn*
Allow me to ask, yet again. Maybe, although i really doubt it, you'll be the first to answer. Can you point to one passage, in any "religious" holy book, that condones killing?
Well, you can take this for what it's worth (and there's plenty more - Joshua's a fun one, too):
Numbers 31: 16-18
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Now, this doesn't say "Killing" is O.K. in general (i.e. Murder); but you can certainly see how someone who believes they are on the side of God might take it.
Well, you can take this for what it's worth (and there's plenty more - Joshua's a fun one, too):
Numbers 31: 16-18
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Now, this doesn't say "Killing" is O.K. in general (i.e. Murder); but you can certainly see how someone who believes they are on the side of God might take it.
And it's not just the books, but the big players in organized religion. Maybe it is not "religion" but "organized religion" that promotes killing.
People kill in the name of religion all the time. Muslims do it every single day. Without religion, would these people be killing in the name of something else anyway? Maybe not, but maybe those that are kept moral be the fear would be killing. Maybe it's a wash?
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
That is a good point. Do most modern day Christians follow a strict intrepretation of the bible and believe all non-believers will go to hell? Do they believe this is justified? To punish someone eternally for thinking differently? Or do they believe more tolerance will be permitted by God and that the bible is a bit off on this? Very interesting.
Catholics believe (I think) that some folks are not held wholly accountable to the idea that Christ died for them. Those would be good moral folks who were raised in other religions, cultures, etc, who never got to know that Christ is the Son of God and culturally wouldn't ever accept it because it's such a foreign concept to them. Perhaps someone who is an informed Catholic could help me out here.
I am a Christian, but not Catholic, but I tend to agree with this as well. I don't think a God so compassionate as to sacrific His own Son would condemn the (in this context) unknowing to an eternity in hell. I could be wrong, but I guess it makes me feel better to think that way. Plus it makes sense to me.
Catholics believe (I think) that some folks are not held wholly accountable to the idea that Christ died for them. Those would be good moral folks who were raised in other religions, cultures, etc, who never got to know that Christ is the Son of God and culturally wouldn't ever accept it because it's such a foreign concept to them. Perhaps someone who is an informed Catholic could help me out here.
I am a Christian, but not Catholic, but I tend to agree with this as well. I don't think a God so compassionate as to sacrific His own Son would condemn the (in this context) unknowing to an eternity in hell. I could be wrong, but I guess it makes me feel better to think that way. Plus it makes sense to me.
I certainly can appreciate this. I just cannot believe that the unknowing would go to hell.
But I am curious whether other Christians would have anything to say about Fanch's Christianity here. Is he a "poor Christian"? Does the bible directly contradict what he thinks? I am trying to be a smartass to nobody here. I really am curious.
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
Catholics believe (I think) that some folks are not held wholly accountable to the idea that Christ died for them. Those would be good moral folks who were raised in other religions, cultures, etc, who never got to know that Christ is the Son of God and culturally wouldn't ever accept it because it's such a foreign concept to them. Perhaps someone who is an informed Catholic could help me out here.
I am a Christian, but not Catholic, but I tend to agree with this as well. I don't think a God so compassionate as to sacrific His own Son would condemn the (in this context) unknowing to an eternity in hell. I could be wrong, but I guess it makes me feel better to think that way. Plus it makes sense to me.
well..... actually........
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God." Romans 1:20, 21
not unless of course, not every scripture is taken literally
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I certainly can appreciate this. I just cannot believe that the unknowing would go to hell.
But I am curious whether other Christians would have anything to say about Fanch's Christianity here. Is he a "poor Christian"? Does the bible directly contradict what he thinks? I am trying to be a smartass to nobody here. I really am curious.
who is Fanch?
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Same old tired rhetoric. *yawn*
Allow me to ask, yet again. Maybe, although i really doubt it, you'll be the first to answer. Can you point to one passage, in any "religious" holy book, that condones killing?
...
Leviticus 20
10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11: And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them
Deuteronomy 13
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
There are MANY more references... if you need them.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Leviticus 20
10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11: And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them
well, these really make an entirely different point... but i see what you're saying.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
well, these really make an entirely different point... but i see what you're saying.
...
I'm NOT saying Christians are murderers. I'm simply saying that Holy Text DO include passages saying it is okay to kill people who violate their texts. That simply pretending these words do not exist doesn't make them go away.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Leviticus 20
10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11: And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them
Deuteronomy 13
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
There are MANY more references... if you need them.
Well from where I sit, I think the yawn has been answered.
...
I'm NOT saying Christians are murderers. I'm simply saying that Holy Text DO include passages saying it is okay to kill people who violate their texts. That simply pretending these words do not exist doesn't make them go away.
no, i mean, i totally agree with you. you're absolutely right.
although of course these texts were written for other reasons than most think.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Well from where I sit, I think the yawn has been answered.
...
I think people don't understand me. Yeah... i am a Heathen... someone with no religion. That's because I WAS a Christian and I had all of these questions....whose answers lead to only more confusion. I guess the whole trip is to keep you confused so you simply accept the canned interpretation.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
In other words, do the larger world religions basically ask the same of people and, if followed in a positive way, do they result in essentially the same thing?
yes; all rivers lead to the sea. the problem here is a few thousand years ago; people talked and taught differently. the best way to pass information was to create a story so it could be told and handed down. very few knew how to read and write so this was the only way to communicate.
oh... ok, that cleared up a lot of confusion from your original question which was... does the bible contradict fanch's beliefs? which my answer was, well, yes.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Well from where I sit, I think the yawn has been answered.
Well, not really. Sound bite references from the Old testament book of Leviticus aren't nearly enough to make a case that the the Bible or Bible based faith encourages and condones ruthless killing. i guess we're forgetting that "thou shalt not kill" part.
Furthermore when placed in context of history and geography when and where folks were banging anything that moved, man, woman or beast, and when mixed in with the fact that the Bible also makes the claim that the wages of ALL sin is death, not just sexual debauchery, and we have a bit more context and perspective. Factor in the concept of Old and New covenant (i don't want to get to deep into theology) and what you end up with likens citing a couple of Leviticus verses to randomly, with eyes shut, putting a finger down on one sentence from chapter five of "War and Peace" and using it to summarize the entire works of Tolstoy.
You're going to have to butress an argument with a little more than that to convince any rational person that the Bible encourages cold hearted killing.
In summation... *yawn*.
edit: i've not encountered one SERIOUS bible teaching church or synogogue that encourages members of congregation to go forth and stone an adultress.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Well, not really. Sound bite references from the Old testament book of Leviticus aren't nearly enough to make a case that the the Bible or Bible based faith encourages and condones ruthless killing. i guess we're forgetting that "thou shalt not kill" part.
Furthermore when placed in context of history and geography when and where folks were banging anything that moved, man, woman or beast, and when mixed in with the fact that the Bible also makes the claim that the wages of ALL sin is death, not just sexual debauchery, and we have a bit more context and perspective. Factor in the concept of Old and New covenant (i don't want to get to deep into theology) and what you end up with likens citing a couple of Leviticus verses to randomly, with eyes shut, putting a finger down on one sentence from chapter five of "War and Peace" and using it to summarize the entire works of Tolstoy.
You're going to have to butress an argument with a little more than that to convince any rational person that the Bible encourages cold hearted killing.
In summation... *yawn*.
edit: i've not encountered one SERIOUS bible teaching church or synogogue that encourages members of congregation to go forth and stone an adultress.
He used the same old technique of pulling a copule of well worn old testament verses, completely removing them from time, place and context in an effort to make ridiculous claims.
*yawn... can't... keep... eyes... open...*
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
He used the same old technique of pulling a copule of well worn old testament verses, completely removing them from time, place and context in an effort to make ridiculous claims.
*yawn... can't... keep... eyes... open...*
not to sound like a dick... but yeah, a lot of "unbelievers" always use that "technique" as if it will mean anything. i can't think of a nicer way to say that it doesn't matter.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Well no wonder you can't see the passages in the Bible that condone killing.
You asked for one example. More than that was provided. If you want to discuss context and interpretation, that's one thing; but you cannot deny that there are passages, many passages, in the Bible that state exactly what you claimed it didn't state.
Well no wonder you can't see the passages in the Bible that condone killing.
You asked for one example. More than that was provided. If you want to discuss context and interpretation, that's one thing; but you cannot deny that there are passages, many passages, in the Bible that state exactly what you claimed it didn't state.
you're absolutely right about that though
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
He used the same old technique of pulling a copule of well worn old testament verses, completely removing them from time, place and context in an effort to make ridiculous claims.
*yawn... can't... keep... eyes... open...*
If they are removing them from a time, place, yawn, etc. Then why exactly are you telling me about a book from at least 2000 years ago that has no relevence or bearing on the modern world what so ever. Maybe your boy Jesus needs to come back and revamp it then if the teachings don't hold water when you are in the discussion.
Well no wonder you can't see the passages in the Bible that condone killing.
You asked for one example. More than that was provided. If you want to discuss context and interpretation, that's one thing; but you cannot deny that there are passages, many passages, in the Bible that state exactly what you claimed it didn't state.
What was provided were a couple of soundbites taken out of context. There IS no discussion without context. It's like when the news media airs one carefully selected sentence taken from an hour long interview and completely changes the meaning of a person's statements. Its an old trick that means nothing.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
The thing is, us "unbelievers" understand context, and many do look at the Bible in an historical frame. However, and I'm not sure cornifer has ever done this or not, we will also throw out passages like that when similar measures are used against us. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are ripe for these types of back-and-forths:
CRAZED BELIEVER: Gays are an abomonation!!
FROTHING UNBELIEVER: SO ARE SHELLFISH!!!
CRAZED BELIEVER: Women must be subservient to their husbands!!
FROTHING UNBELIEVER: Or be stoned to death!!
And on and on for eternity. From my end, it's more a comment on why individual passages shouldn't be used to push a belief.
Except for my response to cornifer. That was more of a logic thing.
Comments
so can drugs and political ideology and hate for religion.
How do you know that those people would not normally kill? If people allow themselves to buy into a specific dogma and commit an act of murder they are acting normal for them, I would agree it's not normal from societal standards, but they may be acting perfectly normal for them.
Same old tired rhetoric. *yawn*
Allow me to ask, yet again. Maybe, although i really doubt it, you'll be the first to answer. Can you point to one passage, in any "religious" holy book, that condones killing?
Numbers 31: 16-18
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Now, this doesn't say "Killing" is O.K. in general (i.e. Murder); but you can certainly see how someone who believes they are on the side of God might take it.
And it's not just the books, but the big players in organized religion. Maybe it is not "religion" but "organized religion" that promotes killing.
People kill in the name of religion all the time. Muslims do it every single day. Without religion, would these people be killing in the name of something else anyway? Maybe not, but maybe those that are kept moral be the fear would be killing. Maybe it's a wash?
Catholics believe (I think) that some folks are not held wholly accountable to the idea that Christ died for them. Those would be good moral folks who were raised in other religions, cultures, etc, who never got to know that Christ is the Son of God and culturally wouldn't ever accept it because it's such a foreign concept to them. Perhaps someone who is an informed Catholic could help me out here.
I am a Christian, but not Catholic, but I tend to agree with this as well. I don't think a God so compassionate as to sacrific His own Son would condemn the (in this context) unknowing to an eternity in hell. I could be wrong, but I guess it makes me feel better to think that way. Plus it makes sense to me.
I certainly can appreciate this. I just cannot believe that the unknowing would go to hell.
But I am curious whether other Christians would have anything to say about Fanch's Christianity here. Is he a "poor Christian"? Does the bible directly contradict what he thinks? I am trying to be a smartass to nobody here. I really am curious.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God." Romans 1:20, 21
not unless of course, not every scripture is taken literally
Leviticus 20
10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11: And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them
Deuteronomy 13
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
There are MANY more references... if you need them.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm NOT saying Christians are murderers. I'm simply saying that Holy Text DO include passages saying it is okay to kill people who violate their texts. That simply pretending these words do not exist doesn't make them go away.
Hail, Hail!!!
Well from where I sit, I think the yawn has been answered.
although of course these texts were written for other reasons than most think.
The person you responded to in post 39
(Fanch75)
I think people don't understand me. Yeah... i am a Heathen... someone with no religion. That's because I WAS a Christian and I had all of these questions....whose answers lead to only more confusion. I guess the whole trip is to keep you confused so you simply accept the canned interpretation.
Hail, Hail!!!
yes; all rivers lead to the sea. the problem here is a few thousand years ago; people talked and taught differently. the best way to pass information was to create a story so it could be told and handed down. very few knew how to read and write so this was the only way to communicate.
Well, not really. Sound bite references from the Old testament book of Leviticus aren't nearly enough to make a case that the the Bible or Bible based faith encourages and condones ruthless killing. i guess we're forgetting that "thou shalt not kill" part.
Furthermore when placed in context of history and geography when and where folks were banging anything that moved, man, woman or beast, and when mixed in with the fact that the Bible also makes the claim that the wages of ALL sin is death, not just sexual debauchery, and we have a bit more context and perspective. Factor in the concept of Old and New covenant (i don't want to get to deep into theology) and what you end up with likens citing a couple of Leviticus verses to randomly, with eyes shut, putting a finger down on one sentence from chapter five of "War and Peace" and using it to summarize the entire works of Tolstoy.
You're going to have to butress an argument with a little more than that to convince any rational person that the Bible encourages cold hearted killing.
In summation... *yawn*.
edit: i've not encountered one SERIOUS bible teaching church or synogogue that encourages members of congregation to go forth and stone an adultress.
He pointed it out. Period.
To make a lighter point, I remember in a lit class in college we read soem story about a woman being stoned to death for adultery.
During the discussion, this stoner chick raised her hand and says:
"I can think of a better way to get stoned!"
True story. I couldn't make up something like that if I tried.
*yawn... can't... keep... eyes... open...*
You asked for one example. More than that was provided. If you want to discuss context and interpretation, that's one thing; but you cannot deny that there are passages, many passages, in the Bible that state exactly what you claimed it didn't state.
If they are removing them from a time, place, yawn, etc. Then why exactly are you telling me about a book from at least 2000 years ago that has no relevence or bearing on the modern world what so ever. Maybe your boy Jesus needs to come back and revamp it then if the teachings don't hold water when you are in the discussion.
What was provided were a couple of soundbites taken out of context. There IS no discussion without context. It's like when the news media airs one carefully selected sentence taken from an hour long interview and completely changes the meaning of a person's statements. Its an old trick that means nothing.
CRAZED BELIEVER: Gays are an abomonation!!
FROTHING UNBELIEVER: SO ARE SHELLFISH!!!
CRAZED BELIEVER: Women must be subservient to their husbands!!
FROTHING UNBELIEVER: Or be stoned to death!!
And on and on for eternity. From my end, it's more a comment on why individual passages shouldn't be used to push a belief.
Except for my response to cornifer. That was more of a logic thing.
My boy Jesus already DID that.