John Kerry Rips The Troops

sonicreducer

onelongsong wrote:

i agree whole heartedly. i've seen countless losers who enlisted and came out some of the highest paid and respected business people around. at least 4 of them were my cousins. they partied their lives away until they got out of high school and had nothing and nowhere to go. every one of them now make 6 figure incomes and are grateful they had that option.

okay. like always, not every story has a happy ending. this one in particular is a pretty shitty one. you could end up like some of your once loser friends. you could also end up tortured and killed.

i agree with you mostly.

my goal on this thread, originally, was to prove that recruiters do take advantage of the lower class and it isn't right.

im off to lunch.

i hope all of you have a great day in america. do something today to make it a better place.

onelongsong

surferdude wrote:

You're coming out of high school, why would you have a family to support?

You only get one life. If you've made life decisions where you have a family to support leaving high school then you've knowingly made decisions that will have a long term effect on your life. It's called consequences for your actions. When it comes to your education you basically get one chance at getting a big chunk of it done. Society can't really help you that much if you chose getting laid at 15 as more important than your future. I can't value your future more than you do.

my father worked 14 plus hour days and i gave the little i made to support the family; BEFORE i ever entered high school. i'd cut lawns; clean out stinking basements; and do what ever i had to to make any amount. someone mentioned broken homes; these kids work to support their families. supporting a family does not mean you have chiildren. it means you have people you love and want to help.
if you don't have love; you missed the whole boat entirely.

Uncle Leo

I can't watch the clip here at work so I don't know exactly what he said.

But it's tough to deny the class component to warfare, dating back to the Civil War, which you could buy your way out of for $300 (a lot of money at the time) and "Nam, which Dan Qualye and "W" were able to avoid by getting into the reserves (EVERYONE wanted in and connections helped alot).

I am upper middle-class. I was able to go to college and grad school with minimal student loans. I had it pretty easy (but don't we all have an equal opportunity for success?). I never had to make this choice. My wife still has around $50K in student loans and will be paying until she is around 50. She did that, worked, etc.

If you are like me (upper middle class with non-materialistic parents who created that college fund that most kids turn out not to have), you are on easy street.

If you are like my wife, you probably have three choices:
1. Forget college and get a job.
2. Military
3 Loans up to your eyballs.

As for the other options:
--You can apply for scolarships that will make a minor dent in the (conservatively) $50,000 to $100,000 that you will cough up for a 4-year degree. They are usually worth hundreds of dollars. I had a $250 scholorship through the grocery store I worked at. My wife, I think, had a couple grand in scolarships. And the truly elite (like the top 1%) can get huge academic scolarships, but that does not apply to many.
--Athletic scolarships? Why not just suggest they buy lottery tickets? There are patials for the non-revenue sports, but you have to be pretty elite to get a significan athletic scolarship.
--Job. Well some people have no choice but to do that. But 6 (or even 10 if someone is so lucky) bucks an hour is not going to make a dent. My option #3 (loans) still applies. Everyone with school loans has jobs while in school (actually I know one that did not, but I think he was dishonest about how much parental help he was getting).

People make their choice. My wife, for example, will be writing checks out for hers until not too long before retirement. But just because it is a "choice" does not mean that the poor (the ones NOT war profiteering) are not more vulneralbe to our leaders' whims--they are the ones that have only one cost-effictive option...

Pat Tillman's name was brought up. I have to respect the fact that part of the reason he went was that he recognizes the class component to warfare and thinks it is bullshit. He payed quite a price to make that point and, at the risk of being added to the long list of people exploiting him, I think his point is worth a bigger place in the national dialogue.

onelongsong

sonicreducer wrote:

okay. like always, not every story has a happy ending. this one in particular is a pretty shitty one. you could end up like some of your once loser friends. you could also end up tortured and killed.

i agree with you mostly.

my goal on this thread, originally, was to prove that recruiters do take advantage of the lower class and it isn't right.

im off to lunch.

i hope all of you have a great day in america. do something today to make it a better place.

i was lied to by a college recruiter so i do agree with you that some take their jobs more agressive than others.

and i can't agree more with you that everyone should try to make the world a better place every day.
have a good lunch.

callen

surferdude wrote:

They could try doing what I did and work their way through school. I know it's innovative approach that you probably feel is beyond comprehension of poor people. Why don't you try respecting these people instead of feeling sorry for them. If they've chosen the military then respect that choice. It was not their only option, they know and so should you.

I'm thinking your a white kid in the good ole USA......this line is sooo for you...

the haves have not a freakin clue.

onelongsong

Uncle Leo wrote:

I can't watch the clip here at work so I don't know exactly what he said.

But it's tough to deny the class component to warfare, dating back to the Civil War, which you could buy your way out of for $300 (a lot of money at the time) and "Nam, which Dan Qualye and "W" were able to avoid by getting into the reserves (EVERYONE wanted in and connections helped alot).

I am upper middle-class. I was able to go to college and grad school with minimal student loans. I had it pretty easy (but don't we all have an equal opportunity for success?). I never had to make this choice. My wife still has around $50K in student loans and will be paying until she is around 50. She did that, worked, etc.

If you are like me (upper middle class with non-materialistic parents who created that college fund that most kids turn out not to have), you are on easy street.

If you are like my wife, you probably have three choices:
1. Forget college and get a job.
2. Military
3 Loans up to your eyballs.

As for the other options:
--You can apply for scolarships that will make a minor dent in the (conservatively) $50,000 to $100,000 that you will cough up for a 4-year degree. They are usually worth hundreds of dollars. I had a $250 scholorship through the grocery store I worked at. My wife, I think, had a couple grand in scolarships. And the truly elite (like the top 1%) can get huge academic scolarships, but that does not apply to many.
--Athletic scolarships? Why not just suggest they buy lottery tickets? There are patials for the non-revenue sports, but you have to be pretty elite to get a significan athletic scolarship.
--Job. Well some people have no choice but to do that. But 6 (or even 10 if someone is so lucky) bucks an hour is not going to make a dent. My option #3 (loans) still applies. Everyone with school loans has jobs while in school (actually I know one that did not, but I think he was dishonest about how much parental help he was getting).

People make their choice. My wife, for example, will be writing checks out for hers until not too long before retirement. But just because it is a "choice" does not mean that the poor (the ones NOT war profiteering) are not more vulneralbe to our leaders' whims--they are the ones that have only one cost-effictive option...

Pat Tillman's name was brought up. I have to respect the fact that part of the reason he went was that he recognizes the class component to warfare and thinks it is bullshit. He payed quite a price to make that point and, at the risk of being added to the long list of people exploiting him, I think his point is worth a bigger place in the national dialogue.

excellent post. i applaud you.

jeffer96

ledvedderman wrote:

I hate to break the news to you, a lot of the jobs in poor areas aren't enough to support a family on AND go to college on. I'm not just talking about inner city kids, I'm talking kids in rural areas like where I am from. McDonalds is not anywhere to get the kind of money to live on and go to school with.

Well, I came from a poor rural area. My parents both worked full time, but didn't make enough money to send me to college. My grades were not good enough to grant me a full ride to college. I blew my hip out playing football, so that took care of any chance of me playing collegiate ball. As my parents were married, had full time jobs, and I also worked part time, that took me out of the running for most financial based scholarships. I was left with one noble option if I wanted to attend college: student loans. The lower your income, the less interest you pay. Some loans are available with no interest at all. Me, well, my parents made too much money for me to qualify for one of those types of loans, so I had to take what was available. Of course, the interest I pay on my loans is deductible every year until my loans are paid off. I managed to graduate not only from a community college, but also a University. The first one in my family to do so actually. Now I have a fairly high paying job in the corporate world. I actually make more a year now than my father did when he was my age and am in line for a promotion where I will make more than my dad did at the time he passed away three years ago at the age of 51. I'm 28. Point being, college is available to everyone: rich, middle class, and poor. Out of those three social economic classes, it is probably harder for someone of a middle class background to go to college as there are fewer options available, but it can be done.

As far as recruiters targeting only the poor: that is complete bullshit. They start calling pretty much all males around the time of their 16th birthdays. They did not stop, at least with myself and my friends - rich or poor - until we turned 18.

Uncle Leo

onelongsong wrote:

excellent post. i applaud you.

Oooh. It's not every day I get applauded. I'll have to mark the date down.

callen

surferdude wrote:

If you can't put off gratification you are pretty much doomed to being unsuccessful in life. Studies I've read say the two biggest characteristics of successful people are persistance and delay of gratification. Neither of these have anything to do with money.

Without persistance the fisrt time you fail you become a failure. Without delayed gratification you'll never be able to put in long term hard work to achieve anything or save money.

and many dont' know the path to a successful life..no ones ever told them...they've never seen anyone do it......and they know of no other way than that of the recruiter that ensures they will have a food, clothing, a car and a job.

callen

Uncle Leo wrote:

Oooh. It's not every day I get applauded. I'll have to mark the date down.

everytime you post..your signature deserves at least an honorable mention.

callen

jeffer96 wrote:

Well, I came from a poor rural area. My parents both worked full time, but didn't make enough money to send me to college. My grades were not good enough to grant me a full ride to college. I blew my hip out playing football, so that took care of any chance of me playing collegiate ball. As my parents were married, had full time jobs, and I also worked part time, that took me out of the running for most financial based scholarships. I was left with one noble option if I wanted to attend college: student loans. The lower your income, the less interest you pay. Some loans are available with no interest at all. Me, well, my parents made too much money for me to qualify for one of those types of loans, so I had to take what was available. Of course, the interest I pay on my loans is deductible every year until my loans are paid off. I managed to graduate not only from a community college, but also a University. The first one in my family to do so actually. Now I have a fairly high paying job in the corporate world. I actually make more a year now than my father did when he was my age and am in line for a promotion where I will make more than my dad did at the time he passed away three years ago at the age of 51. I'm 28. Point being, college is available to everyone: rich, middle class, and poor. Out of those three social economic classes, it is probably harder for someone of a middle class background to go to college as there are fewer options available, but it can be done.

As far as recruiters targeting only the poor: that is complete bullshit. They start calling pretty much all males around the time of their 16th birthdays. They did not stop, at least with myself and my friends - rich or poor - until we turned 18.

read my post above....you had two parents..you knew how to get out of your situation..and you had support to do it...many don't. I do commend what you did..as I did the almost exact thing....parents made just too much money,..and after community college and universityl..I'm okay...but for many..they just don't know..or believe its possible.

onelongsong

Uncle Leo wrote:

Oooh. It's not every day I get applauded. I'll have to mark the date down.

i honestly meant that leo.

onelongsong

callen wrote:

and many dont' know the path to a successful life..no ones ever told them...they've never seen anyone do it......and they know of no other way than that of the recruiter that ensures they will have a food, clothing, a car and a job.

i can't agree. the poor know the need for hard work more than others.

Uncle Leo

onelongsong wrote:

i honestly meant that leo.

I know. Thanks. I appreciate it.

surferdude

callen wrote:

I'm thinking your a white kid in the good ole USA......this line is sooo for you...

the haves have not a freakin clue.

Nice, playing the race card. Like there are no poor white people in the world. You talk about me not having a clue, yet you know nothing about me and make accusations.

callen

surferdude wrote:

Nice, playing the race card. Like there are no poor white people in the world. You talk about me not having a clue, yet you know nothing about me and make accusations.

....and I'm not playing the race card...just pointing out the fact that many people in the US scream....well I made it...why can't everyone else...well unless you were born in a slum...no dad...not white...no money...or ever had a successfull friend or acquaintance..you can't talk about how everyone can do it.....they don't know how..or have ever seen it done....and they do want better...by getting out of the situation..so they join the services...and it does work...well until some asswipe convinces the majority that they want revenge against evil muslims. I do apologize for my crudeness...I shouldn't have done it..just get frustrated when I here white people talk about how eveyone can make it....

onelongsong

surferdude wrote:

Nice, playing the race card. Like there are no poor white people in the world. You talk about me not having a clue, yet you know nothing about me and make accusations.

don't you hate when that happens; dude? my family was enslaved and killed by hitler. the surviving member came to america as a displaced person and worked on a dairy farm in northern wisconsin; sleeping in the barn and laying up against cows to stay warm. he's now 96 with a couple million in the bank. discriminated against as DPs; we all knew we had to work harder than everyone else.

callen

onelongsong wrote:

i can't agree. the poor know the need for hard work more than others.

they do know that..just not the path to do it...and they don't have the culture either....its easy to say..work hard and you'll get out....I know lots of people that work to the bone everyday...but unfortunately not in a way to change their position in society.

onelongsong

callen wrote:

am I....and I'm not playing the race card...just pointing out the fact that many people in the US scream....well I made it...why can't everyone else...well unless you were born in a slum...no dad...not white...no money...or ever had a successfull friend or acquaintance..you can't talk about how everyone can do it.....they don't know how..or have ever seen it done....and they do want better...by getting out of the situation..so they join the services...and it does work...well until some asswipe convinces the majority that they want revenge against evil muslims. I do apologize for my crudeness...I shouldn't have done it..just get frustrated when I here white people talk about how eveyone can make it....

because of a brain aneurysm; i have a slew of doctors. all but one are blacks that came from poverty. the other is a "former ussr" immigrant. they took advantage of affirmative action; (which whites don't have); and pulled themselves out of poverty.

callen

onelongsong wrote:

don't you hate when that happens; dude? my family was enslaved and killed by hitler. the surviving member came to america as a displaced person and worked on a dairy farm in northern wisconsin; sleeping in the barn and laying up against cows to stay warm. he's now 96 with a couple million in the bank. discriminated against as DPs; we all knew we had to work harder than everyone else.

point...your grandfather knew how to become successful...he knew what it took...and he more than likely had a stable family when he grew up....not what many minorities in the US face..sooo...the reason for this post...they turn to the military...get it??