Rape and Chicken Wings

hippiemom

VictoryGin wrote:

my god. i just don't even know what to say about that just yet. can you imagine what that poor girl felt? the thought of someone using their power like that makes me want to vomit.

do you think this will be covered more widely?

I can't begin to imagine :( Fourteen years old, and her last moments on this earth were spent being raped and listening to her family being slaughtered. I don't have words for this.

I've been avoiding the news lately ... I needed a break ... I come back and see this. Heartbreaking :(

kenny olav

shit like this makes me wanna be a feminazi

dharma69

I know that most of us here are grown-ups...we all know that horrid things have happened in the past and will continue to happen in the future.

Or maybe not. None of us can do anything, other than talk, about those past horrors of war. Because of that, I'm not touching or discussing them. We're living in this mess now. Those guys got down to a level so low I cannot even begin to understand it.

It's way past time for everyone to come home. Republican, Democrat, Green, regardless. Once we get to the point where we have to put our own people on trial for war crimes (which has been going on for a while now), we're almost useless to the people we were trying to help.

Truthmonger

hippiemom wrote:

I am in NO WAY defending the American military here. I'm aware of our many transgressions and totally agree with you. My only point is that it's not limited to the American military. Look at what the Cambodian military did, the German military in WWII, look at what Israel is doing right now. Military culture makes people do things they would not do on their own. It does it in our country, and it does it elsewhere. As Americans, our primary concern is of course what is being done in our name and with our money, but it's hardly a uniquely American phenomenon.

Fair enough. But I don't recall ever saying it was an exclusively American phenomenon. What i said was that Americans seem to have a penchant for it, to the point of it being disproportionate. I remember reading somewhere last year that in the town of Okinawa alone, there were something like several hundred crimes perpetarted by american servicemen in a span of 20-30 years. Thats just one town !!

Moreover, the examples you cite relate to times of all-out war. That being the case, how do you explain the actions of American perpetrators who were merely stationed in places like Okinawa in times of complete peace ? There was no antagonism. There was no stress. It was as far from an Iraq experience as one could get - yet heinous crimes were being perpetrated in unusual numbers. And it was happening all over the world in similar, relatively-peaceful circumstances.

hippiemom

Truthmonger wrote:

Fair enough. But I don't recall ever saying it was an exclusively American phenomenon. What i said was that Americans seem to have a penchant for it, to the point of it being disproportionate. I remember reading somewhere last year that in the town of Okinawa alone, there were something like several hundred crimes perpetarted by american servicemen in a span of 20-30 years. Thats just one town !!

Moreover, the examples you cite relate to times of all-out war. That being the case, how do you explain the actions of American perpetrators who were merely stationed in places like Okinawa in times of complete peace ? There was no antagonism. There was no stress. It was as far from an Iraq experience as one could get - yet heinous crimes were being perpetrated in unusual numbers. And it was happening all over the world in similar, relatively-peaceful circumstances.

I think that has more to do with the fact that our military is all over the damn place in a way that no other military is, than it does with American soldiers per se, although American arrogance certainly plays a part. There have been MANY cases of atrocities committed by other military organizations in relatively peaceful times, although they tend to be committed against citizens of their own countries because it's the only place many militaries operate. That is why I say that the colossal mind-fuck that is military training here and elsewhere is the main causal factor.

Again, not defending them in any way ... on the contrary, as others have mentioned in this thread, I'd like to see these guys and others punished the way they would be if they attacked Americans.

rebornFixer

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

Time out.

I really do not want this thread closed. So how ever feels like responding to Robbie, how bout we leave out personal attacks and all that happy shit so the folks who want to discuss this openly have the chance too. Thank you.

Time in.

People who post that kind of stuff should NOT be allowed to hide behind the posting guidelines.

rebornFixer

hippiemom wrote:

I think that has more to do with the fact that our military is all over the damn place in a way that no other military is, than it does with American soldiers per se, although American arrogance certainly plays a part. There have been MANY cases of atrocities committed by other military organizations in relatively peaceful times, although they tend to be committed against citizens of their own countries because it's the only place many militaries operate. That is why I say that the colossal mind-fuck that is military training here and elsewhere is the main causal factor.

Well said, I agree.
I'd also add that people in America are simply more likely to hear about such atrocities when they are commited by American troops.
Do you know how many countries in the world use government-sanctioned torture on prisoners, political or otherwise? The number is well over 100. And these are STATE-SANCTIONED atrocities. Saying that Americans have a special penchant for this is absurd.

VictoryGin

Kenny Olav wrote:

shit like this makes me wanna be a feminazi

I can show you the secret handshake.

VictoryGin

hippiemom wrote:

I can't begin to imagine :( Fourteen years old, and her last moments on this earth were spent being raped and listening to her family being slaughtered. I don't have words for this.

I've been avoiding the news lately ... I needed a break ... I come back and see this. Heartbreaking :(

i just wonder how a person can get to that place where that seems like a good idea. i'm sure some are traumatized during war, but how much does it take to get there?

rebornFixer

VictoryGin wrote:

i just wonder how a person can get to that place where that seems like a good idea. i'm sure some are traumatized during war, but how much does it take to get there?

Depends on the person ... Some people are more vulnerable to posttraumatic stress reactions than others.

rarghrargh-brownstar

MrBrian wrote:

grill some chicken wings?

wow
another one who i hope is OVER 20.

if not, truly sad indeed.

Truthmonger

hippiemom wrote:

I think that has more to do with the fact that our military is all over the damn place in a way that no other military is, than it does with American soldiers per se, although American arrogance certainly plays a part. There have been MANY cases of atrocities committed by other military organizations in relatively peaceful times, although they tend to be committed against citizens of their own countries because it's the only place many militaries operate. That is why I say that the colossal mind-fuck that is military training here and elsewhere is the main causal factor.

Again, not defending them in any way ... on the contrary, as others have mentioned in this thread, I'd like to see these guys and others punished the way they would be if they attacked Americans.

Ya, I'd like to see the American military punish their servicemen as well (or allow other authorities to do it). Unfortunately, the US military has a history of doing just the opposite. In Okinawa, for example, the U.S. military hadn't released a single American/perpetrator to the Japanese authorities for crimes committed until 1995 !! For some 40 years it would only release them if the japanese authorities made formal indictments. The U.S. servicemen would run back to the bases after committing crimes and hide behind the securtity of American protection. And those crimes happened often - according to this article, from 1972 to 2002, Americans perpetrated some 5000 crimes in the Okinawa area, of which 500 + were deemed to be felonies. The rates of criminal offences in places like Okinawa were sometimes several times what the rates were for domestic US bases.

http://hnn.us/articles/2867.html

Here's an interesting excerpt:

"The governor's petition included the information that, according to Okinawan prefectural police records, during the thirty-year period since Okinawa reverted to Japan's administration (1972-2002), American troops, Pentagon civilians, and military dependents committed 5,157 crimes in Okinawa, of which 533 were the "heinous" crimes of murder and rape. This works out to 17.7 heinous crimes per year or 1.5 per month.15 In a famous study comparing rates of military sexual assault leading to court martial around the world from 1988 to 1994, the Dayton Daily News found that Okinawa had a rate of 4.12 per 1,000 U.S. military personnel compared with Camp Pendleton's 2.0, Camp Lejeune's 1.75, San Diego's 1.09, and Norfolk, Virginia's 0.80. Inamine stressed that this situation has not changed. In fact, since fiscal year 1996, just after the major Okinawan rape incident, the number of crimes committed by servicemen grew at a rate of 1.3 times per year.16 "

robbie

reborncareerist wrote:

People who post that kind of stuff should NOT be allowed to hide behind the posting guidelines.

are you suggesting I should not be allowed to post because i recognise that whatever happens in iraq is the fault of the people responsible for our being in iraq in the first place? it is astonishing that people are so in favor of war and then pretend to be so opposed to the details of war. war is disgusting. it is murder, rape, destruction...its WAR for fucking out loud!!!!!! thats kind of why the sane umong us are so OPPOSED to it. whatever happens over there is the fault of the administration that started this war..MORESO the fault of the people that put this administration in power. and chose to keep thm in power for another 4 years. the people in favor of war...... what did you think war was??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? the tortures, murders, rapes, kidnappings, pillaging....this is what you voted for. this is what some of you continue to argue in favor of. there is nothing civil or humane about it. you have to know that, yet you still support it. please someone explian to me how this is not your fault. how you are not responsible for this girls rape and murder. how am i hiding behind posting guidelines?

hailhailkc

hippiemom wrote:

I am in NO WAY defending the American military here. I'm aware of our many transgressions and totally agree with you. My only point is that it's not limited to the American military. Look at what the Cambodian military did, the German military in WWII, look at what Israel is doing right now. Military culture makes people do things they would not do on their own. It does it in our country, and it does it elsewhere. As Americans, our primary concern is of course what is being done in our name and with our money, but it's hardly a uniquely American phenomenon.

I couldn't agree with you more. You have my total support and understanding on this one. When you put young men into a volatile situation, put them under severe stress, don't teach them how to handle the stress (as if anyone can teach anyone how to handle war), expose them to the horrors of war, and then arm them…you ARE taking some risks. Some people are bound to to do sick shit like this.

And like you, I'm not excusing it at all. It's wrong, sick, and just plain horrible. However, it's a problem we often see arise in military culture.

hailhailkc

VictoryGin wrote:

i just wonder how a person can get to that place where that seems like a good idea. i'm sure some are traumatized during war, but how much does it take to get there?

I think people like that have always, truly, been close to "getting there" for a long, long time. War simply brings it out in them, and gives them an "excuse" to do as they please.

Abookamongstthemany

hailhailkc wrote:

I couldn't agree with you more. You have my total support and understanding on this one. When you put young men into a volatile situation, put them under severe stress, don't teach them how to handle the stress (as if anyone can teach anyone how to handle war), expose them to the horrors of war, and then arm them…you ARE taking some risks. Some people are bound to to do sick shit like this.

And like you, I'm not excusing it at all. It's wrong, sick, and just plain horrible. However, it's a problem we often see arise in military culture.

So how do we go about fixing this problem? I think the first step should be to quit brainwashing these young people into thinking that killing=good.

hailhailkc

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

So how do we go about fixing this problem? I think the first step should be to quit brainwashing these young people into thinking that killing=good.

I don't think this problem can be fixed. I think the average soldier doesn't look upon killing as "good", but they rather view it as something that might be...might be...necessary in accordance with their job. Many soldiers feel guilt after they kill the enemy.

Like any other area of life, or career, I think you will always have a certain percentage who are unstable, unhealthy, and ready to do harm to others if given an excuse. War exacerbates that though, and pours fuel on the fire of these people who are mentally ill.

I don't think you can weed these people out though. I think they're the same kind of people who shoot up a school like Columbine, or kill people at the Post Office. They're just messed up…and one day they snap and act out.

Cosmo

hailhailkc wrote:

I think people like that have always, truly, been close to "getting there" for a long, long time. War simply brings it out in them, and gives them an "excuse" to do as they please.

...
I have to disagree. Remember, these guys were playing in your little Leagues, going to you high schools, going to your churches and in your Boy Scouts. I think that the military trainning, which is basically to kill or be killed, creates this incredible bond between soldiers. If you fail, you die... and take your teammates with you... sames goes for them... they fail, you die.
These specific guys were Airborne. They are trainned to kill, not to police. same goes for tankers, artillery gunners and Infantry... soldiers that we want to have a killer instinct. They are never supposed to look at the enemy are humans... they there were Krauts and Japs and Gooks and Commies and Sand Niggers.
We should be held partly to blame for putting soldiers in the role of policemen and expecting to use their warfare trainning into the tasks of cops... it does not work unless we train our soldiers to be cops... which we don't. We want the Airborne to kill the enemy... they are 'Death From Above'. In this current environment, the civilians and the enemy all look the same... there is no uniform to shoot at... no insignias to differentiate civilian from combatant.
we should have known this going in... but, since we didn't, we SHOULD doing those things to prepare our soldiers to be cops (which will be a mistake because we still need soldiers that kill).

hailhailkc

Cosmo wrote:

...
I have to disagree. Remember, these guys were playing in your little Leagues, going to you high schools, going to your churches and in your Boy Scouts. I think that the military trainning, which is basically to kill or be killed, creates this incredible bond between soldiers. If you fail, you die... and take your teammates with you... sames goes for them... they fail, you die.
These specific guys were Airborne. They are trainned to kill, not to police. same goes for tankers, artillery gunners and Infantry... soldiers that we want to have a killer instinct. They are never supposed to look at the enemy are humans... they there were Krauts and Japs and Gooks and Commies and Sand Niggers.
We should be held partly to blame for putting soldiers in the role of policemen and expecting to use their warfare trainning into the tasks of cops... it does not work unless we train our soldiers to be cops... which we don't. We want the Airborne to kill the enemy... they are 'Death From Above'. In this current environment, the civilians and the enemy all look the same... there is no uniform to shoot at... no insignias to differentiate civilian from combatant.
we should have known this going in... but, since we didn't, we SHOULD doing those things to prepare our soldiers to be cops (which will be a mistake because we still need soldiers that kill).

Actually, I think that's a good point, and I agree with you 100%. Well said. However, I don't think this "training and mentality" encompasses EVERY soldier or situation, because if it did, we would see this type of behavior from most of our troops.

I think it's fair to say that this type of training and behavior modification, coupled with the exposure to war horrors and soldiers who have some mental illnesses / sick minds to begin with are the type of people who are most likely to do these things.

I think both elements play into it quite a bit.

In simpleton terms. The guys that do this shit are the kids you used to know in grade school who actually smiled and laughed when they stuck a cherry bomb up a cat's ass and lit it. Put THOSE guys in THIS situation, then give them Airborne training, long boring days in Iraq, weapons and a guerilla war…and you have a real cluster fuck on your hands.

Cosmo

hailhailkc wrote:

Actually, I think that's a good point, and I agree with you 100%. Well said. However, I don't think this "training and mentality" encompasses EVERY soldier or situation, because if it did, we would see this type of behavior from most of our troops.

I think it's fair to say that this type of training and behavior modification, coupled with the exposure to war horrors and soldiers who have some mental illnesses / sick minds to begin with are the type of people who are most likely to do these things.

I think both elements play into it quite a bit.

In simpleton terms. The guys that do this shit are the kids you used to know in grade school who actually smiled and laughed when they stuck a cherry bomb up a cat's ass and lit it. Put THOSE guys in THIS situation, then give them Airborne training, long boring days in Iraq, weapons and a guerilla war…and you have a real cluster fuck on your hands.

...
I also think that it's environmental exposure... along with mob mentality. The same thing that makes basically, law abibing, god-fearing people run into the 7-11 and take whatever they can grab. They know it's wrong... but, something tells hem that since everyonearound them is doing it, it must be okay... for that specific moment. That explained all of the returned goods after the L.A. riots. Remorse.
I don't know the specifics of this incident, but I can tell you... I cannot guarantee that if I was placed in a hostile situation, I would do the right thing... in every instance. You mix anger and hatred with the death and the mutilating dismemberment of your bunkmate from an I.E.D... I challenge anyone to say they wouldn't smoke some of those fuckers if all of the right, or wrong, factors came into play. You pity the poor slob that crosses the path of pissed off Airborne.