...
I also think that it's environmental exposure... along with mob mentality. The same thing that makes basically, law abibing, god-fearing people run into the 7-11 and take whatever they can grab. They know it's wrong... but, something tells hem that since everyonearound them is doing it, it must be okay... for that specific moment. That explained all of the returned goods after the L.A. riots. Remorse.
I don't know the specifics of this incident, but I can tell you... I cannot guarantee that if I was placed in a hostile situation, I would do the right thing... in every instance. You mix anger and hatred with the death and the mutilating dismemberment of your bunkmate from an I.E.D... I challenge anyone to say they wouldn't smoke some of those fuckers if all of the right, or wrong, factors came into play. You pity the poor slob that crosses the path of pissed off Airborne.
Yep, once again tonight, I totally agree. Good points.
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...
I also think that it's environmental exposure... along with mob mentality. The same thing that makes basically, law abibing, god-fearing people run into the 7-11 and take whatever they can grab. They know it's wrong... but, something tells hem that since everyonearound them is doing it, it must be okay... for that specific moment. That explained all of the returned goods after the L.A. riots. Remorse.
I don't know the specifics of this incident, but I can tell you... I cannot guarantee that if I was placed in a hostile situation, I would do the right thing... in every instance. You mix anger and hatred with the death and the mutilating dismemberment of your bunkmate from an I.E.D... I challenge anyone to say they wouldn't smoke some of those fuckers if all of the right, or wrong, factors came into play. You pity the poor slob that crosses the path of pissed off Airborne.
I agree with all of this, but there's a huge difference between smoking some of those fuckers and coldly calculating the rape of a young girl and the slaughter of an entire family, followed by a celebratory barbeque. Guys who feel they're in immediate danger ... sure, they're going to have quick trigger fingers, you would too, so would I. I certainly wouldn't want to cross the path of a pissed off Airborne, but these guys were chilling at the base, looking for a way to have some fun, blow off a little steam ... and THIS is what they came up with?! This is way, way, way beyond the pale, regardless of how stressful their situation is.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I agree with all of this, but there's a huge difference between smoking some of those fuckers and coldly calculating the rape of a young girl and the slaughter of an entire family, followed by a celebratory barbeque. Guys who feel they're in immediate danger ... sure, they're going to have quick trigger fingers, you would too, so would I. I certainly wouldn't want to cross the path of a pissed off Airborne, but these guys were chilling at the base, looking for a way to have some fun, blow off a little steam ... and THIS is what they came up with?! This is way, way, way beyond the pale, regardless of how stressful their situation is.
...
I know.
To be honest... I don't want this to be true... I work with military people... I work on their systems.. I want them to be the good guys. i know I'm trying to justify (although it does not mean letting them off the hook)... but I just don't want the good guy to act exactly like the bad guys. This type of behaviour is exactly the same as those a-holes in hoods, beheading people. I don't want our guys to be like their guys.
and no matter what... I still blame the War for this. The War creates this shit... it HAS to.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree with all of this, but there's a huge difference between smoking some of those fuckers and coldly calculating the rape of a young girl and the slaughter of an entire family, followed by a celebratory barbeque. Guys who feel they're in immediate danger ... sure, they're going to have quick trigger fingers, you would too, so would I. I certainly wouldn't want to cross the path of a pissed off Airborne, but these guys were chilling at the base, looking for a way to have some fun, blow off a little steam ... and THIS is what they came up with?! This is way, way, way beyond the pale, regardless of how stressful their situation is.
I think Cosmo understands the difference. He's just saying what you've stated here. We're on the same page with ya.
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I really wanna to see if they will be tried & CONVICTED as if it was an American girl...hopefully life and no parole...interesting to see
You have no idea about professionalism in the military, and if someone crosses that line. You hope they get life in jail? No Saddam Hussein is so lucky to get that for murdering his people. Im sure in this case the death penalty will be the outcome.
There is no issue of political affiliation here. Nor "defending the US military". The vast majority of the US military will be deplored by the actions of this group.
Let them pay the price... not quite sure what that should be, theres rape, murder, torture and child molestation to consider.
And for those of you who say that "they are put under stress" or "how would you act in their situation": wake up, there is no excuse for it. None at all. Let these sick and twisted bastards spend the rest of their lives rotting in cells.
There needs to be more mainstream media coverage of this. If the people of the US were to be informed of this kind of thing, it would help prove yet again that no good is coming out of this war. Nothing.
my god. i just don't even know what to say about that just yet. can you imagine what that poor girl felt? the thought of someone using their power like that makes me want to vomit.
do you think this will be covered more widely?
It will probably get wide media coverage, but unless irrefutable proof of their guilt comes to light, this incident will be used by the right and the left as a political football in the war debate, instead of focusing on the atrocity of the act itself.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
Rape: American soldiers 'took turns'
Baghdad
August 9, 2006
DRUNKEN American soldiers took turns to rape a 14-year-old Iraqi girl, a military tribunal has heard. The men murdered her and her family and celebrated by grilling chicken wings.
The soldiers, from the 101st Airborne Division, were on checkpoint duty when they decided they "wanted to kill some Iraqis", the tribunal in Baghdad was told.
It was the first time that an account had been given publicly of what is alleged to have happened in Mahmudiya, south of Baghdad, on March 12.
Sergeant Paul Cortez, Specialist James Barker, Private Jesse Spielman and Private Bryan Howard are charged with conspiracy to rape and murder. A fifth man, Sergeant Anthony Yribe, is charged with not reporting the attack. Former private Steven Green faces rape and murder charges in a civilian court.
Special agent Benjamin Bierce recounted the sworn testimony Barker had given him.
After two hours of interrogation, Barker said the men had been playing cards and drinking.
Green is alleged to have raised the idea of killing some Iraqis. The men changed into black clothing and ski masks and told Howard to stand look-out.
The girl, Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi, and her father were standing outside a house. The soldiers allegedly dragged them inside and pushed the man, his wife and younger daughter, 6, into a side room where Green stood guard over them.
Barker's statement said Cortez pushed the girl to the floor and tore off her clothes as Barker held her down. She held her knees together and struggled as Cortez tried to rape her.
A gun shot came from the side room as the men switched places. More shots were heard from the side room and Green emerged with an AK-47. He allegedly said, "They're all dead," before raping the girl and shooting her several times.
Barker said her body was set alight. Green opened the house's propane tank to set it on fire.
They burnt their clothes, threw the gun into a canal and, back at the checkpoint, brought out the chicken wings.
are you suggesting I should not be allowed to post because i recognise that whatever happens in iraq is the fault of the people responsible for our being in iraq in the first place? it is astonishing that people are so in favor of war and then pretend to be so opposed to the details of war. war is disgusting. it is murder, rape, destruction...its WAR for fucking out loud!!!!!! thats kind of why the sane umong us are so OPPOSED to it. whatever happens over there is the fault of the administration that started this war..MORESO the fault of the people that put this administration in power. and chose to keep thm in power for another 4 years. the people in favor of war...... what did you think war was??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? the tortures, murders, rapes, kidnappings, pillaging....this is what you voted for. this is what some of you continue to argue in favor of. there is nothing civil or humane about it. you have to know that, yet you still support it. please someone explian to me how this is not your fault. how you are not responsible for this girls rape and murder. how am i hiding behind posting guidelines?
I am not sure it's even worth it, but here goes. I am not an American, I did not vote for Bush, and so I'll ask that you not hold me responsible for any rapes or murders, or any other crimes that you are attributing to anyone who DID vote for Bush.
Thanks.
I am not sure it's even worth it, but here goes. I am not an American, I did not vote for Bush, and so I'll ask that you not hold me responsible for any rapes or murders, or any other crimes that you are attributing to anyone who DID vote for Bush.
Thanks.
i am in no way holding you responsible. i am holding the people that voted for this administration and support this war responsible. i think it is obvious to anyone that gives this any though whatsoever that the responsibility lies with them. im sorry you took my comment to mean i was indicting you.
i am in no way holding you responsible. i am holding the people that voted for this administration and support this war responsible. i think it is obvious to anyone that gives this any though whatsoever that the responsibility lies with them. im sorry you took my comment to mean i was indicting you.
You know what is funny robbie...is that one specific pro-war supporter here made a direct comment that Lebonese citizens were a acceptable by-product for Israeli attacks because they as a nation put them in some power in their Parliament....said they also have the blood on their hands because of the support for Hezbollah...it makes me laugh because try to turn the situation on him to his pro-Iraq stance (related to your belief) and he seems to believe it is somewhat different...however it is not...I see and understand what you are getting at.....
I'd like to know who robbie voted for in the past…then I can play the same blame game too.
Exactly. The only way someone could truly avoid voting for a politician who might commit some immoral act in the future would be to use psychic powers. And since we ARE talking about politicians, even that wouldn't work .. Who would you vote for?
Exactly. The only way someone could truly avoid voting for a politician who might commit some immoral act in the future would be to use psychic powers. And since we ARE talking about politicians, even that wouldn't work .. Who would you vote for?
Or not vote.....b/c all the candidates are prone to that fate.....
Exactly. The only way someone could truly avoid voting for a politician who might commit some immoral act in the future would be to use psychic powers. And since we ARE talking about politicians, even that wouldn't work .. Who would you vote for?
Not any immoral act ... he's talking about this war in particular and he has a point. Not about the people who voted for Bush in 2000, because although there were those of us who had an inkling that he might be a bit gung-ho, there was certainly no hard evidence of it. But in '04, we were already there, things were already going awry, there were already ugly stories floating around, there was NO QUESTION as to what you were supporting with a Bush vote. I wouldn't go so far as to say "YOU raped that girl and killed her family!" to everyone who voted for Bush, but yeah, there's some level of responsibility there. This is what happens in a war, and they voted for the war and the people who were responsible for getting us into it. You can't support war and not support atrocities like this, because they ALWAYS go hand in hand.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Not any immoral act ... he's talking about this war in particular and he has a point. Not about the people who voted for Bush in 2000, because although there were those of us who had an inkling that he might be a bit gung-ho, there was certainly no hard evidence of it. But in '04, we were already there, things were already going awry, there were already ugly stories floating around, there was NO QUESTION as to what you were supporting with a Bush vote. I wouldn't go so far as to say "YOU raped that girl and killed her family!" to everyone who voted for Bush, but yeah, there's some level of responsibility there. This is what happens in a war, and they voted for the war and the people who were responsible for getting us into it. You can't support war and not support atrocities like this, because they ALWAYS go hand in hand.
Hmmm ... I guess one can make this argument in general terms ... A vote for Bush was likely to translate into ongoing U.S. participation in this bullshit Iraq war. It just seems like a stretch to me, to take it all the way down to these very specific acts commited by specific soldiers. War and atrocity do indeed go hand in hand, but that does not mean that someone who thinks a war is just also condones specific deviant acts like raping and slaughtering civilians in a foreign country. By that logic, anyone who thinks that Hitler and the Nazis needed to be defeated by force of arms in WW-II (something that many people will admit was necessary) also condones the firebombing of Dresden, and what Soviet troops did to civilians all over Germany.
Not any immoral act ... he's talking about this war in particular and he has a point. Not about the people who voted for Bush in 2000, because although there were those of us who had an inkling that he might be a bit gung-ho, there was certainly no hard evidence of it. But in '04, we were already there, things were already going awry, there were already ugly stories floating around, there was NO QUESTION as to what you were supporting with a Bush vote. I wouldn't go so far as to say "YOU raped that girl and killed her family!" to everyone who voted for Bush, but yeah, there's some level of responsibility there. This is what happens in a war, and they voted for the war and the people who were responsible for getting us into it. You can't support war and not support atrocities like this, because they ALWAYS go hand in hand.
They may often times go hand in hand, but that doesn't mean that support for the war equals support for atrocities like Abu Grahib, or mass graves in Bosnia. It's like saying that if you enjoy getting tipsy on a Saturday night, you must be an advocate of drunk driving...because the two often go hand in hand. Most of us here would agree that's not the case. And to take it a step further, it would be akin to saying that those who like to get tipsy, somehow have some amount of blood on their hands from all of the drunk driving accidents that happen everyday in this nation. After all, if you drink alcohol, then you must support drunk driving, right?
Kinda stretchin' it if you ask me.
I guess people who shoot up with heroin now have blood on their hands via the tyrannical rule of the Taliban over the last decade or so in Afghanistan. After all, those poppy plants produce a drug that could be funded by the very people in this nation that buy the product. Therefore they help support and hold some responsibility for every head chopped off, every woman victimized, and every child raised with an AK-47 in his/her hand.
The list goes on...and on...and on...
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Hmmm ... I guess one can make this argument in general terms ... A vote for Bush was likely to translate into ongoing U.S. participation in this bullshit Iraq war. It just seems like a stretch to me, to take it all the way down to these very specific acts commited by specific soldiers. War and atrocity do indeed go hand in hand, but that does not mean that someone who thinks a war is just also condones specific deviant acts like raping and slaughtering civilians in a foreign country. By that logic, anyone who thinks that Hitler and the Nazis needed to be defeated by force of arms in WW-II (something that many people will admit was necessary) also condones the firebombing of Dresden, and what Soviet troops did to civilians all over Germany.
You and I, we share the same brain! LOL! Nice post!!!
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And Hippiemom, just to be fair, I'm not saying that I don't see your point…or that you're completely wrong here either. I just don't want to see this analogy stretched out too far to the point of absurd. I know you reigned yourself in on your post, and said that you wouldn't go as far as saying that people who voted for Bush actually committed the rape, but I just want to keep some perspective here.
No harm meant.
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They may often times go hand in hand, but that doesn't mean that support for the war equals support for atrocities like Abu Grahib, or mass graves in Bosnia. It's like saying that if you enjoy getting tipsy on a Saturday night, you must be an advocate of drunk driving...because the two often go hand in hand. Most of us here would agree that's not the case. And to take it a step further, it would be akin to saying that those who like to get tipsy, somehow have some amount of blood on their hands from all of the drunk driving accidents that happen everyday in this nation. After all, if you drink alcohol, then you must support drunk driving, right?
Kinda stretchin' it if you ask me.
I guess people who shoot up with heroin now have blood on their hands via the tyrannical rule of the Taliban over the last decade or so in Afghanistan. After all, those poppy plants produce a drug that could be funded by the very people in this nation that buy the product. Therefore they help support and hold some responsibility for every head chopped off, every woman victimized, and every child raised with an AK-47 in his/her hand.
The list goes on...and on...and on...
If you get tipsy and then drive drunk then you are supporting drunk driving. How can it be alright for you but not everyone else? If you shoot up heroin and the money you spend on it goes to the Taliban, then yes, you are supporting them. I thought some of you guys were big on personal responsibility? I don't buy Coke products because my money would be supporting a corporation whose policies I don't condone. I wouldn't vote for Coke knowing that my vote would mean supporting their actions. If you're saying these things always happen in war and you voted for a guy who wanted this war, then yes, you have some guilt on your hands.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The soldiers who did this should be drawn and quartered Braveheart style...Anyone who commits rape (let alone murder) should be put to death...Ideally in a painful fashion by the victim and her family...Of course, this is only if they're known to be guilty (that's my main problem with the death penalty as it stands). On the bright side? It would free up a lot of room for the drug offenders this country loves to imprison. Maybe that sounds harsh, but I'm Sicilian...We like our revenge...
These "soldiers" have dishonored their country in a way that is inconceivable. War is hell, but there are ways to avoid inflicting that hell on innocent civilians. We need to get the hell out of there yesterday. What a sad world we live in...
"I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?"
I skimmed the story and didn't read any follow-up posts, but I have a HUGE craving for some Hooters wings now and it's only 9:30 AM. Thanks a lot.
19 Pearl Jam shows and still searching for Deep! 1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point); 2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
How come we aren't hearing about this in the news? Have I just been missing it? Or are the afraid to show it because it actually proves that shit isn't going the way they actually want it too and they can't fess up.
You have no idea about professionalism in the military, and if someone crosses that line. You hope they get life in jail? No Saddam Hussein is so lucky to get that for murdering his people. Im sure in this case the death penalty will be the outcome.
Really?
Family to a UN Commander in Bosnia....yeah I have no sense of the military....
Comments
Yep, once again tonight, I totally agree. Good points.
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I know.
To be honest... I don't want this to be true... I work with military people... I work on their systems.. I want them to be the good guys. i know I'm trying to justify (although it does not mean letting them off the hook)... but I just don't want the good guy to act exactly like the bad guys. This type of behaviour is exactly the same as those a-holes in hoods, beheading people. I don't want our guys to be like their guys.
and no matter what... I still blame the War for this. The War creates this shit... it HAS to.
Hail, Hail!!!
I think Cosmo understands the difference. He's just saying what you've stated here. We're on the same page with ya.
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????
You have no idea about professionalism in the military, and if someone crosses that line. You hope they get life in jail? No Saddam Hussein is so lucky to get that for murdering his people. Im sure in this case the death penalty will be the outcome.
Go Cubs!
i don't have a witty follow-up to that, but it merits at least this:
*sigh*
also, hugs ABATM.
((ABATM))
xoxoxoxoxox
Let them pay the price... not quite sure what that should be, theres rape, murder, torture and child molestation to consider.
And for those of you who say that "they are put under stress" or "how would you act in their situation": wake up, there is no excuse for it. None at all. Let these sick and twisted bastards spend the rest of their lives rotting in cells.
There needs to be more mainstream media coverage of this. If the people of the US were to be informed of this kind of thing, it would help prove yet again that no good is coming out of this war. Nothing.
It will probably get wide media coverage, but unless irrefutable proof of their guilt comes to light, this incident will be used by the right and the left as a political football in the war debate, instead of focusing on the atrocity of the act itself.
hell on earth
I am not sure it's even worth it, but here goes. I am not an American, I did not vote for Bush, and so I'll ask that you not hold me responsible for any rapes or murders, or any other crimes that you are attributing to anyone who DID vote for Bush.
Thanks.
i am in no way holding you responsible. i am holding the people that voted for this administration and support this war responsible. i think it is obvious to anyone that gives this any though whatsoever that the responsibility lies with them. im sorry you took my comment to mean i was indicting you.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
You know what is funny robbie...is that one specific pro-war supporter here made a direct comment that Lebonese citizens were a acceptable by-product for Israeli attacks because they as a nation put them in some power in their Parliament....said they also have the blood on their hands because of the support for Hezbollah...it makes me laugh because try to turn the situation on him to his pro-Iraq stance (related to your belief) and he seems to believe it is somewhat different...however it is not...I see and understand what you are getting at.....
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Exactly. The only way someone could truly avoid voting for a politician who might commit some immoral act in the future would be to use psychic powers. And since we ARE talking about politicians, even that wouldn't work .. Who would you vote for?
Or not vote.....b/c all the candidates are prone to that fate.....
Hmmm ... I guess one can make this argument in general terms ... A vote for Bush was likely to translate into ongoing U.S. participation in this bullshit Iraq war. It just seems like a stretch to me, to take it all the way down to these very specific acts commited by specific soldiers. War and atrocity do indeed go hand in hand, but that does not mean that someone who thinks a war is just also condones specific deviant acts like raping and slaughtering civilians in a foreign country. By that logic, anyone who thinks that Hitler and the Nazis needed to be defeated by force of arms in WW-II (something that many people will admit was necessary) also condones the firebombing of Dresden, and what Soviet troops did to civilians all over Germany.
They may often times go hand in hand, but that doesn't mean that support for the war equals support for atrocities like Abu Grahib, or mass graves in Bosnia. It's like saying that if you enjoy getting tipsy on a Saturday night, you must be an advocate of drunk driving...because the two often go hand in hand. Most of us here would agree that's not the case. And to take it a step further, it would be akin to saying that those who like to get tipsy, somehow have some amount of blood on their hands from all of the drunk driving accidents that happen everyday in this nation. After all, if you drink alcohol, then you must support drunk driving, right?
Kinda stretchin' it if you ask me.
I guess people who shoot up with heroin now have blood on their hands via the tyrannical rule of the Taliban over the last decade or so in Afghanistan. After all, those poppy plants produce a drug that could be funded by the very people in this nation that buy the product. Therefore they help support and hold some responsibility for every head chopped off, every woman victimized, and every child raised with an AK-47 in his/her hand.
The list goes on...and on...and on...
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You and I, we share the same brain! LOL! Nice post!!!
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No harm meant.
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If you get tipsy and then drive drunk then you are supporting drunk driving. How can it be alright for you but not everyone else? If you shoot up heroin and the money you spend on it goes to the Taliban, then yes, you are supporting them. I thought some of you guys were big on personal responsibility? I don't buy Coke products because my money would be supporting a corporation whose policies I don't condone. I wouldn't vote for Coke knowing that my vote would mean supporting their actions. If you're saying these things always happen in war and you voted for a guy who wanted this war, then yes, you have some guilt on your hands.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
These "soldiers" have dishonored their country in a way that is inconceivable. War is hell, but there are ways to avoid inflicting that hell on innocent civilians. We need to get the hell out of there yesterday. What a sad world we live in...
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
Really?
Family to a UN Commander in Bosnia....yeah I have no sense of the military....