no one needs to DISprove the existence of any god(s). those who believe in its/their existence have the burden of proof on THEM.
is this really a debate worth having????
if you have "faith" it means, by definition, that you don't have- NOR DO YOU NEED- "proof". just accept your faith for what it is, and let others live their lives as they see fit.
not a difficult concept, really.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
The major difference is if there are aliens then they are quiet content (so it seems) to live their own lives. Where as good religious folk feel the need to drag everyone into their lives to co-exist with their belief system.
1) Say, "Dude, I don't want to read your poem about global warming
2) Say, "Nah, I don't really give a shit about minor grammar mistakes. I don't get upset about comma splices, I have other shit to worry about."
3) Say, "The Toyota Prius is the ugliest car on the road. Hell, you can't even fit anything inside of it."
4) Say that you belong to a religion that you didn't learn about in religion class at university. Say that furthermore, your religion actually requires you to do stuff and make sacrifices, not just say that you're "spiritual" and otherwise not do anything.
In the same way that you cannot disprove the flying spaghetti monster, you cannot disprove God.
But, if God does exist, then yer screwed.
Hence, I'm a paschal man, among others.
Paschal's Wager:
If God exists and you believe in him, you will probably go to heaven.
If God exists and you do not believe in him, you will probably not go to heaven.
If God doesn't exist and you believe in him, you are no worse off for having believed in him.
If God doesn't exist and you didn't believe in him, you have the fortune of saying "I was right!" when you're dead.
Theoretically, this wager should cause you to conclude that it is advantageous to bet that God exists. You have everything to win and nothing to lose.
I am not convinced that God does not exist. I take the optimist's view: if God didn't exist, there'd be a lot more pain and suffering than there is. So God must exist, because he limits our pain and suffering. Plenty of people point to God when they say that they were healed.
I'm not a Paschal woman because I believe that if there is a god, it wouldn't play games like this. It's a game that if you profess, or even actually believe in something, it will reward you for your beliefs. I may reward you for liking me more than I reward someone for pointing out I'm biased, but that's because I'm a stinking, flawed human. Should god be as flawed--or in this case more flawed--than a human? I think not. Also, I do think that you are worse off for having believed if God doesn't exist because you will have conducted your life based on believing in this god and not in others--or none--and therefore following a set of restrictions in your life here that you would not have had there, many of them quite odd and to no actual better end than any other god's odd set of willy nilly restrictions. It is not advantageous to bet that god exists in a particular guise, imo. If you are a skeptic and force yourself to do so, you are a liar to yourself and the world. You have no integrity. Setting yourself up to be loved by a god that wants you to prostitute your integrity is believing in a very, very small "god" indeed. That is no god to me and actual "proof" there is none as stated in the books. If God didn't exist, there'd be the same amount of pain and suffering there is. It is optimistic to say otherwise, but it's not based on anything but wanting to make something not right psychologically right by stating something optimistic, but ultimately just a story you tell yourself. What god requires your pain? What god would give you pain so that you would love him because he stopped it? God healed me! That sounds twisted, not something God would do to make sure you loved him. If a human hurt you so you would love him when he stopped, you'd both be candidates for a stay in a mental institution. I love people and creatures that treat me right, not entities that require I kill my son to show my love. This is a god that wants someone who loves him so much, he's willing to commit homicide for him. I don't want a relationship with anyone or anything who wants me to love him, her or it so much that I'm ultimately willing to kill someone I love just to show I'm more willing to please it than follow my own good human instincts.
If that is god, should there be an afterlife, I want to go straight to hell, and far away from "god" because going to heaven sounds infinitely worse. I like flattery, but not enough to condemn someone else to eternal misery for not giving it to me. If someone doesn't "believe in me," so what? But with this thing, you don't believe in it and hell awaits along with the eternal torture chamber. Does it make sense I am more God-like than God? No. It doesn't. So, if there is a real god, it isn't this thing that exists in this book.
If you are implying there might be some type of god, but not the one in a literal book of rules with pages to turn and egos and political and social aims to burn, I'd be willing to go along with that. There might be. And there might be a "book," but nothing humans have had a hand in writing. You know, I look around me and I either see bountiful proof of a creator or I see bountiful proof that the natural laws are the creator--no entity involved. In either case, the "book" is the universe and all it contains...perhaps the book is even the multiverse and all it contains. All I do know is that the written books are slanted, with certain people more special than others, often depending on ethnicity and gender. And the books are based on fear. Do what I say or I will punish you horribly forever. What is that? I'll tell you what that is. That is an abusive parent talking, not God. That's an anthropomorphic take on the concept of creator based on cultural conditions dated by thousands of years. If there is a god, when it talks, its voice is different. I don't think it tells you what you dearly want to hear; I think it tells you to accept that this is what you have--good, bad and indifferent--and to work to make the very best of it for you and for your fellow passengers in this thing called life because life is short and so is your ride. I don't think It cares whether you follow the instructions or not...although it was kind enough to give you enough intelligence that you might follow the suggested steps to make the ride the best it can be. I see, if I see any at all, a very imperfect creator that makes very imperfect living creations--but is apparently much handier with nonliving creations. In that way, I do believe that God and animals might channel one another well.
"Religion was an attempt to pin down the Divine. The Divine was eternally in flux, forever moving, shifting shape. That was its nature. It was absolute, true enough: absolutely mobile. Absolutely transcendent. Abolutely flexible. Absolutely impersonal. It has its god and goddess aspects, but it was ultimately no more male or female than it was star or screwdriver. It was the sum of all those things, but that sum could never be chalked on a slate. The Divine was beyond description, beyond knowing, beyond comprehension. To say that the Divine was Creation divided by Destruction was as close as one could come to definition. But the puny of soul, the dull of wit, weren't content with that. They wanted to hang a face on the Divine. They went so far as to attribute petty human emotions (anger, jealousy, etc.) to it, not stopping to realize that if God were a being, even a supreme being, our prayers would have bored him to death long ago.
The Divine was expansive, but religion was reductive. Religion attempted to reduce the Divine to knowable quanitity with which mortals might efficiently deal, to pigeonhole it once and for all so that we never had to reevaluate it. With hammers of cant and spikes of dogma, we crucified and crucifed again, trying to nail to our stationary altars the migratory light of the world.
Thus, since religion bore false witness to the Divine, religion was blasphemy. And once it entered into its unholy alliance with politics, it became the most dangerous and repressive force that the world has ever known.
Eeena eeena, eeena-eeena ai
Eh, eh-eh, wop wop haj"
- Tom Robbins
Thus, us "advanced white people" sometimes say, "I'm spiritual but not religious."
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I'm so glad I don't know any religious people. Everyone I know are atheists as far as I know. If anyone was religious, my surrounding would consider that person weird.
I'm so glad I don't know any religious people. Everyone I know are atheists as far as I know. If anyone was religious, my surrounding would consider that person weird.
yeah, that is a huge misconception........religion is for self righteous zealots who need to be in a way that makes them feel better than other people because they can think, "well, I THINK about screwing others, but I don't actually do it" or "screw those sinners," but "we love everybody" as well....wtf??
so we are really in faith as true believers; (sorry I know I always say that), but I just think that as Jesus said that sin begins in our hearts.
I love it when I hear people say, "I have to go to church, but I don't want to!", (ok, so He knows........what's the secret??) .
We can talk until we are blue in the face but the truth pans out in our actions, so how we are inside and how that translates into how we treat others, is the true measure of faith.
I am sorry but I have come to believe that religion and God do not always meet.............
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
1) Say, "Dude, I don't want to read your poem about global warming
2) Say, "Nah, I don't really give a shit about minor grammar mistakes. I don't get upset about comma splices, I have other shit to worry about."
3) Say, "The Toyota Prius is the ugliest car on the road. Hell, you can't even fit anything inside of it."
4) Say that you belong to a religion that you didn't learn about in religion class at university. Say that furthermore, your religion actually requires you to do stuff and make sacrifices, not just say that you're "spiritual" and otherwise not do anything.
5) Say you don't like indie rock
and furthermore say, "I am the AntiP.E.T.A.!"...........right?
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
Thus, us "advanced white people" sometimes say, "I'm spiritual but not religious."
Well, you can't lose. You get to feel good about yourself spiritually, but at the same time you don't have to give up anything, do anything, make any stands, or go anywhere. It's that sweet double victory!
Well, you can't lose. You get to feel good about yourself spiritually, but at the same time you don't have to give up anything, do anything, make any stands, or go anywhere. It's that sweet double victory!
see, I am not advanced but I still say that....wow, maybe I am advanced!!!???
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
You guys are going to piss off the invisible muscular white guy that lives in the clouds with your dead pets. But don't worry, it's all just part of the plan.
"Ask an atheist if he or she believes in the existence of aliens? If they answer, "no," then ask them how do they know that? Have they gone to all the other galaxies throughout the universe? The truth is that no atheist can reasonably deny the existence of alien life. To do so would be utter ignorance. If an atheist answers, "yes," then they have contradicted their claim that there is no God. Is not God an Alien? By every definition of the word, God is an alien, i.e., He is not of this earth. For an atheist to profess believe is alien life, while simultaneously denying the existence of God, is utter hypocrisy and foolishness."
This is the most humorous thing that I've read all day. It was posted on another message board and I couldn't resist responding.
Here is my response:
Discuss.
Is that not like anybody who believes in religion knocking somebody for saying the are the next Jesus or Mohammad? There can't be anybody after them or is a religious persons mind so small that they can believe somebody can be the next after 2000 years+. Stupid question I tell you!
Using logic to prove (or disprove) God's existence is somewhat ironic. Faith is a personal matter and we all have reasons to believe or not, it's useless to try and prove others wrong, especially with logical and/or scientific arguments.
Using logic to prove (or disprove) God's existence is somewhat ironic. Faith is a personal matter and we all have reasons to believe or not, it's useless to try and prove others wrong, especially with logical and/or scientific arguments.
Because throughout history there is not one instance where religion has left the personal sphere of a particular believer and impacted upon others.....this is why it is important.
And why is it useless? Is it useless to try and show people that there political beliefs are misguided? or a number of other personal beliefs that people hold are wrong. Why not have open discussion about religion like we do for a number of other things that are also personal in some sense?
Because throughout history there is not one instance where religion has left the personal sphere of a particular believer and impacted upon others.....this is why it is important.
And why is it useless? Is it useless to try and show people that there political beliefs are misguided? or a number of other personal beliefs that people hold are wrong. Why not have open discussion about religion like we do for a number of other things that are also personal in some sense?
I don't think that Kann is saying discussing religion is pointless or irrelevant, just that faith by its very definition is impossible to prove with logic or science. It requires a belief that can't be proven right or wrong. Sure, people have converted for one reason or another, but it certainly isn't because someone came up with an equation that proves one religion is the only correct one. Faith is based on what we're told and our personal experience, not by scientific proof and bonafide facts.
Paul
'06 - London, Dublin, Reading
'07 - Katowice, Wembley, Dusseldorf, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
'09 - London, Manchester, London
'12 - Manchester, Manchester, Berlin, Stockholm, Copenhagen
I like hearing people answer the question of Adam & Eve, they had 2 son's and the Son's each started there own family.....................................................
THEY HAD CHILDREN WITH THERE MOTHER??? WTF????
WASN'T ANY OTHER WOMAN AROUD, THAT IS JUST WRONG!!!
I like hearing people answer the question of Adam & Eve, they had 2 son's and the Son's each started there own family.....................................................
THEY HAD CHILDREN WITH THERE MOTHER??? WTF????
WASN'T ANY OTHER WOMAN AROUD, THAT IS JUST WRONG!!!
actually adam and eve had 3 sons. abel cain and seth.
youll notice in the bible that there was a lot of begatting with hardly, if any mention of woman. i have been told that just cause women arent/hardly ever mentioned doesnt mean they werent there. just another example of patriarchy at work.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Because throughout history there is not one instance where religion has left the personal sphere of a particular believer and impacted upon others.....this is why it is important.
I didn't say it religion isn't important. The repeated mistake of trying to explain and spread our personal faith is important enough that we learn from it.
And why is it useless? Is it useless to try and show people that there political beliefs are misguided? or a number of other personal beliefs that people hold are wrong. Why not have open discussion about religion like we do for a number of other things that are also personal in some sense?
I'm not talking of religion but faith as fowls said. Mixing religion and politics is another big mistake perpetrated by man. It is my opinion that faith should be something kept for oneself, you may challenge this opinion with facts and logic, unlike my faith (or lack of).
Comments
is this really a debate worth having????
if you have "faith" it means, by definition, that you don't have- NOR DO YOU NEED- "proof". just accept your faith for what it is, and let others live their lives as they see fit.
not a difficult concept, really.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
but seriously... people are still having this "argument?"
All you need to know is,
THE DEAD ARE LAUGHING AT US
Do you mean the Dead in the Thriller video? Zombies?
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
1) Say, "Dude, I don't want to read your poem about global warming
2) Say, "Nah, I don't really give a shit about minor grammar mistakes. I don't get upset about comma splices, I have other shit to worry about."
3) Say, "The Toyota Prius is the ugliest car on the road. Hell, you can't even fit anything inside of it."
4) Say that you belong to a religion that you didn't learn about in religion class at university. Say that furthermore, your religion actually requires you to do stuff and make sacrifices, not just say that you're "spiritual" and otherwise not do anything.
5) Say you don't like indie rock
I'm not a Paschal woman because I believe that if there is a god, it wouldn't play games like this. It's a game that if you profess, or even actually believe in something, it will reward you for your beliefs. I may reward you for liking me more than I reward someone for pointing out I'm biased, but that's because I'm a stinking, flawed human. Should god be as flawed--or in this case more flawed--than a human? I think not. Also, I do think that you are worse off for having believed if God doesn't exist because you will have conducted your life based on believing in this god and not in others--or none--and therefore following a set of restrictions in your life here that you would not have had there, many of them quite odd and to no actual better end than any other god's odd set of willy nilly restrictions. It is not advantageous to bet that god exists in a particular guise, imo. If you are a skeptic and force yourself to do so, you are a liar to yourself and the world. You have no integrity. Setting yourself up to be loved by a god that wants you to prostitute your integrity is believing in a very, very small "god" indeed. That is no god to me and actual "proof" there is none as stated in the books. If God didn't exist, there'd be the same amount of pain and suffering there is. It is optimistic to say otherwise, but it's not based on anything but wanting to make something not right psychologically right by stating something optimistic, but ultimately just a story you tell yourself. What god requires your pain? What god would give you pain so that you would love him because he stopped it? God healed me! That sounds twisted, not something God would do to make sure you loved him. If a human hurt you so you would love him when he stopped, you'd both be candidates for a stay in a mental institution. I love people and creatures that treat me right, not entities that require I kill my son to show my love. This is a god that wants someone who loves him so much, he's willing to commit homicide for him. I don't want a relationship with anyone or anything who wants me to love him, her or it so much that I'm ultimately willing to kill someone I love just to show I'm more willing to please it than follow my own good human instincts.
If that is god, should there be an afterlife, I want to go straight to hell, and far away from "god" because going to heaven sounds infinitely worse. I like flattery, but not enough to condemn someone else to eternal misery for not giving it to me. If someone doesn't "believe in me," so what? But with this thing, you don't believe in it and hell awaits along with the eternal torture chamber. Does it make sense I am more God-like than God? No. It doesn't. So, if there is a real god, it isn't this thing that exists in this book.
If you are implying there might be some type of god, but not the one in a literal book of rules with pages to turn and egos and political and social aims to burn, I'd be willing to go along with that. There might be. And there might be a "book," but nothing humans have had a hand in writing. You know, I look around me and I either see bountiful proof of a creator or I see bountiful proof that the natural laws are the creator--no entity involved. In either case, the "book" is the universe and all it contains...perhaps the book is even the multiverse and all it contains. All I do know is that the written books are slanted, with certain people more special than others, often depending on ethnicity and gender. And the books are based on fear. Do what I say or I will punish you horribly forever. What is that? I'll tell you what that is. That is an abusive parent talking, not God. That's an anthropomorphic take on the concept of creator based on cultural conditions dated by thousands of years. If there is a god, when it talks, its voice is different. I don't think it tells you what you dearly want to hear; I think it tells you to accept that this is what you have--good, bad and indifferent--and to work to make the very best of it for you and for your fellow passengers in this thing called life because life is short and so is your ride. I don't think It cares whether you follow the instructions or not...although it was kind enough to give you enough intelligence that you might follow the suggested steps to make the ride the best it can be. I see, if I see any at all, a very imperfect creator that makes very imperfect living creations--but is apparently much handier with nonliving creations. In that way, I do believe that God and animals might channel one another well.
The Divine was expansive, but religion was reductive. Religion attempted to reduce the Divine to knowable quanitity with which mortals might efficiently deal, to pigeonhole it once and for all so that we never had to reevaluate it. With hammers of cant and spikes of dogma, we crucified and crucifed again, trying to nail to our stationary altars the migratory light of the world.
Thus, since religion bore false witness to the Divine, religion was blasphemy. And once it entered into its unholy alliance with politics, it became the most dangerous and repressive force that the world has ever known.
Eeena eeena, eeena-eeena ai
Eh, eh-eh, wop wop haj"
- Tom Robbins
Thus, us "advanced white people" sometimes say, "I'm spiritual but not religious."
that and "there are no athiests in the foxhole".................
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
yeah, that is a huge misconception........religion is for self righteous zealots who need to be in a way that makes them feel better than other people because they can think, "well, I THINK about screwing others, but I don't actually do it" or "screw those sinners," but "we love everybody" as well....wtf??
so we are really in faith as true believers; (sorry I know I always say that), but I just think that as Jesus said that sin begins in our hearts.
I love it when I hear people say, "I have to go to church, but I don't want to!", (ok, so He knows........what's the secret??) .
We can talk until we are blue in the face but the truth pans out in our actions, so how we are inside and how that translates into how we treat others, is the true measure of faith.
I am sorry but I have come to believe that religion and God do not always meet.............
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkhQLt1vbWU
Where is this indie rock that you speak of?
Same here...
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
and furthermore say, "I am the AntiP.E.T.A.!"...........right?
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
Well, you can't lose. You get to feel good about yourself spiritually, but at the same time you don't have to give up anything, do anything, make any stands, or go anywhere. It's that sweet double victory!
see, I am not advanced but I still say that....wow, maybe I am advanced!!!???
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
Checkmate!
LOL! Edward Current's videos are usually pretty funny, this is definitely one of those. Kudos.
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
Is that not like anybody who believes in religion knocking somebody for saying the are the next Jesus or Mohammad? There can't be anybody after them or is a religious persons mind so small that they can believe somebody can be the next after 2000 years+. Stupid question I tell you!
Because throughout history there is not one instance where religion has left the personal sphere of a particular believer and impacted upon others.....this is why it is important.
And why is it useless? Is it useless to try and show people that there political beliefs are misguided? or a number of other personal beliefs that people hold are wrong. Why not have open discussion about religion like we do for a number of other things that are also personal in some sense?
'06 - London, Dublin, Reading
'07 - Katowice, Wembley, Dusseldorf, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
'09 - London, Manchester, London
'12 - Manchester, Manchester, Berlin, Stockholm, Copenhagen
THEY HAD CHILDREN WITH THERE MOTHER??? WTF????
WASN'T ANY OTHER WOMAN AROUD, THAT IS JUST WRONG!!!
http://www.myspace.com/lizardkings1
(This Post May Have Been Edited By AT&T)
actually adam and eve had 3 sons. abel cain and seth.
youll notice in the bible that there was a lot of begatting with hardly, if any mention of woman. i have been told that just cause women arent/hardly ever mentioned doesnt mean they werent there. just another example of patriarchy at work.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I'm not talking of religion but faith as fowls said. Mixing religion and politics is another big mistake perpetrated by man. It is my opinion that faith should be something kept for oneself, you may challenge this opinion with facts and logic, unlike my faith (or lack of).