is it a coincidence that threads about the middle east conflict always are a mirror image of...the middle east conflict?
"they started it"
"no, they started it"
"they are worse!"
"no, they are worse!"
that's the logic that keeps that thing going...in order to get somewhere constant mutual blame games need to stop...
needless to say, I'm playing the role of international (=ineffective to useless) diplomacy right now...;)
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
so since Israel is a stronger nation, we shouldn't talk about the bad things the weaker side does? scary logic.
How did Israel become such a strong nation? and what are the intentions of Israel?
----
The Palestinian people are an oppressed people. They are fighting back, how often do we fault an oppressed people? Did we fault the ANC when fighting against the goverment before the 90's?
Or what about the Jewish people fighting against the Nazis to higher degrees. Would you still of said 'so since the Nazis are stronger.......'and then go on about how the Jewish people had so and so faults while fighting for survival.
Blame goes onto the shoulders of Israel. If someone breaks into your home, takes it over and invites their family in....settles if you will..Then If you decided to fight back, would it make at all any sense to blame you for doing so?
How did Israel become such a strong nation? and what are the intentions of Israel?
----
The Palestinian people are an oppressed people. They are fighting back, how often do we fault an oppressed people? Did we fault the ANC when fighting against the goverment before the 90's?
Or what about the Jewish people fighting against the Nazis to higher degrees. Would you still of said 'so since the Nazis are stronger.......'and then go on about how the Jewish people had so and so faults while fighting for survival.
Blame goes onto the shoulders of Israel. If someone breaks into your home, takes it over and invites their family in....settles if you will..Then If you decided to fight back, would it make at all any sense to blame you for doing so?
I'm not defending Israel. look at what happen first in this case. rockets were fired, blockade went up. no? I fall in the camp where both sides are at fault. it seems like many around here are firmly against Israel and thats fine, I have no problem with that.
I fall in the camp where both sides are at fault. it seems like many around here are firmly against Israel and thats fine, I have no problem with that.
Would you fall into the same camp if it was apartheid South Africa? Or any other oppressed group of people Vs a powerful oppressor?
Like I said, the Palestinians are fighting back. and No, rockets were not fired than the blockade went up. That's just an Israeli excuse. Propaganda.
so since Israel is a stronger nation, we shouldn't talk about the bad things the weaker side does? scary logic.
On a parallel note, I always think that not enough attention is paid to the bad things that Jewish partisan groups and the French resistance took part in during World war II. Too much attention is paid to the crimes of the Nazis whilst forgetting the bad things that the resistance got up to. I wonder why this is? :sarcasm:
I mean, in the case of Israel/Palestine; one side is a nuclear armed state, supported by the worlds only superpower, and is equipped with a modern army which includes the worlds 2nd biggest fleet of F16's. It has been engaged in a 30 year illegal occupation, and has been accused of countless war crimes and crimes against humanity.
And the other side is largely living in abject poverty, struggles to feed itself, and is armed with nothing but crappy homemade rockets.
I sure do pity those poor Israeli's. It must be a terrible burden to have to steal someone's land, beat them, shoot them, demolish their homes, kill their children, imprison them, slowly starve them, and fire rockets and missiles at them from F16 fighter jets - all in the name of self-defense.
On a parallel note, I always think that not enough attention is paid to the bad things that Jewish partisan groups and the French resistance took part in during World war II. Too much attention is paid to the crimes of the Nazis whilst forgetting the bad things that the resistance got up to. I wonder why this is?
I mean, in the case of Israel/Palestine; one side is a nuclear armed state, supported by the worlds only superpower, and is equipped with a modern army which includes the worlds 2nd biggest fleet of F16's. It has been engaged in a 30 year illegal occupation, and has been accused of countless war crimes and crimes against humanity.
And the other side is largely living in abject poverty, struggles to feed itself, and is armed with nothing but crappy homemade rockets.
I sure do pity those poor Israeli's. It must be a terrible burden to have to steal someone's land, beat them, shoot them, demolish their homes, kill their children, and fire rockets and missiles at them from F16 fighter jets - all in the name of self-defense.
Palestinians are victims, no doubt. but to say that an organization like Hamas is innocent is down right ignorant in my opinion.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
'In a letter to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Mahmoud Zahar even mentioned the possibility of a "two-state" solution in which Palestinians have "freedom and independence side by side with our neighbors" -- despite Hamas' long-standing vow to eradicate Israel.
In his letter, Zahar [...] claimed that Israel is continuing "illegal colonial policies" and using "excessive military force."
"Israel is undertaking all these illegal measures as the world watches and listens," Zahar told Annan. "Israel continues to commit these grave violations of international law ... without any concern, acting as if it is a state above the law."
Zahar also said that the Palestinian Authority is hoping that nations threatening to withhold aid from the Palestinian Authority because of Hamas' leadership will reconsider "their positions and their hasty decisions."
"We expect the international community to respect the democratic choice of the Palestinian people and to work with this new Cabinet in order to enhance this democratic course and to protect political pluralism through the achievement of peace and stability in the region," he said.
The United States, Israel and the European Union regard Hamas as a terrorist group, and the United states and Canada have formally cut ties with the new government...'
Israel has temporarily re-opened a border crossing with the Gaza Strip to allow in essential supplies of food.
It has also allowed delivery, through a pipe line, of diesel fuel for Gaza's only power plant.
It is only the second time in three weeks that Israel has permitted aid deliveries into the territory.
It tightened its blockade of the Hamas-controlled territory earlier in November after rocket attacks by Palestinian militants.
The militants said their attacks, which caused minor damage but no serious injuries, were in retaliation for an Israeli army raid into Gaza.
UN officials say Gaza is facing a humanitarian catastrophe, and have urged Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to ease the blockade.
'Minimum impact'
Israel allowed at least 40 lorryloads of humanitarian aid and other goods into Gaza via the Kerem Shalom crossing point.
Shipments were last allowed on 17 November, also for a single day.
Future aid shipments depended on whether cross-border violence could be curbed, Israeli officials said.
But aid workers in the territory said the deliveries would have a minimum impact as reserves were already so depleted, and they needed a steady supply of aid to alleviate the shortages.
"It is just not enough," said United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNWRA) spokesman Christopher Gunness, quoted by Reuters news agency.
The Israeli authorities also opened the Nahal Oz terminal for the delivery of fuel to Gaza's power plant, for the first time since the blockade was intensified on 4 November.
Israel has temporarily re-opened a border crossing with the Gaza Strip to allow in essential supplies of food.
It has also allowed delivery, through a pipe line, of diesel fuel for Gaza's only power plant.
It is only the second time in three weeks that Israel has permitted aid deliveries into the territory.
It tightened its blockade of the Hamas-controlled territory earlier in November after rocket attacks by Palestinian militants.
The militants said their attacks, which caused minor damage but no serious injuries, were in retaliation for an Israeli army raid into Gaza.
UN officials say Gaza is facing a humanitarian catastrophe, and have urged Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to ease the blockade.
'Minimum impact'
Israel allowed at least 40 lorryloads of humanitarian aid and other goods into Gaza via the Kerem Shalom crossing point.
Shipments were last allowed on 17 November, also for a single day.
Future aid shipments depended on whether cross-border violence could be curbed, Israeli officials said.
But aid workers in the territory said the deliveries would have a minimum impact as reserves were already so depleted, and they needed a steady supply of aid to alleviate the shortages.
"It is just not enough," said United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNWRA) spokesman Christopher Gunness, quoted by Reuters news agency.
The Israeli authorities also opened the Nahal Oz terminal for the delivery of fuel to Gaza's power plant, for the first time since the blockade was intensified on 4 November.
Let's hope they now begin abiding by international law and dismantle the separation barrier, and then withdraw completely from the Occupied Territories.
'Alongside attacks by its military, Israel's government says its Gaza closure strategy aims to deter Palestinian militants from firing rockets across the border at Israeli towns.....'
<blank look>
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
A United Nations spokesman slammed the amount of international food aid Israel allowed into the Gaza Strip on Monday, amid mounting international concern over a deterioration of the humanitarian situation in the besieged, aid-dependent Palestinian territory. "It is most emphatically not enough," said UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) spokesman Chris Gunness. "This drip-drip approach will not allow UNRWA to function."
With stocks running dangerously low, UNRWA had expressed fears it would have to suspend its food distribution for the second time since Israel completely sealed off the territory at the beginning of the month.
Various UN and EU officials have denounced the effect of the siege on Gaza's population, half of whom are dependent on handouts for survival, saying the action amounts to "collective punishment of a civilian population." Such an action is illegal under international law and defined by the Fourth Geneva Convention as a war crime.
would the crossing still be opened today if rockets were not fired into Israel yesterday?
Israeli officials said they took the step after a rocket was fired at Israel late on Monday.
You think that's the right question to be asking? "Would the crossing still be open today if a rocket hadn't been fired into Israel?"
How about answering this question instead?: What right does Israel have to continue it's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and what right does it have to collectively punish 1.5 million people?
would the crossing still be opened today if rockets were not fired into Israel yesterday?
That's like asking "Would the Nazis have continued throwing scraps of bread over the wall of the Warsaw ghetto if the Jews inside hadn't started the uprising in 1943?"
What right does Israel have to continue it's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and what right does it have to collectively punish 1.5 million people?
What right does Israel have to continue it's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and what right does it have to collectively punish 1.5 million people?
That's like asking "Would the Nazis have continued throwing scraps of bread over the wall of the Warsaw ghetto if the Jews inside hadn't started the uprising in 1943?"
when it doubt, throw in a Nazi comparison. point is, the checkpoint would probably be open had Palestinians not fired a rocket yesterday.
when it doubt, throw in a Nazi comparison. point is, the checkpoint would probably be open had Palestinians not fired a rocket yesterday.
No, the point is that it's silly to talk about this one particular issue with the checkpoint like it's now the focus of the crisis in the Middle East. The Nazi comparison is totally appropriate here because it puts the whole situation in the proper perspective.
No, the point is that it's silly to talk about this one particular issue with the checkpoint like it's now the focus of the crisis in the Middle East. The Nazi comparison is totally appropriate here because it puts the whole situation in the proper perspective.
It's funny/sad actually. If the Palestinians stopped all forms of resistance tomorrow, it would only speed up how quickly Israel acquires their land and resources and gets away with it in the public eye.
In a nutshell, they want peaceful cheap labor slaves who are easier to steal from and don't make such a fuss over getting screwed over.
who wouldn't I suppose?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
It's funny/sad actually. If the Palestinians stopped all forms of resistance tomorrow, it would only speed up how quickly Israel acquires their land and resources and gets away with it in the public eye.
In a nutshell, they want peaceful cheap labor slaves who are easier to steal from and don't make such a fuss over getting screwed over.
who wouldn't I suppose?
so they should probably just continue to fire rockets into Israel. who knows they may get lucky and hit some kids on their way to school! viva la resistance! whole lot of good its doing them eh? maybe they should try a peaceful resistance.
Your point is a moot point. It's not relevant. It's just a distraction and an excuse.
it was you (and others) posting about how horrible this blockade is correct? and it is horrible. well, Israel opened the blockade, which is what you want correct? then it was closed because more rockets were fired last night.
fire no rockets, blockade remains lifted. moot my ass.
so they should probably just continue to fire rockets into Israel. who knows they may get lucky and hit some kids on their way to school! viva la resistance! whole lot of good its doing them eh? maybe they should try a peaceful resistance.
They just did. But Israel failed to stick to the terms of the truce from the outset.
Comments
"they started it"
"no, they started it"
"they are worse!"
"no, they are worse!"
that's the logic that keeps that thing going...in order to get somewhere constant mutual blame games need to stop...
needless to say, I'm playing the role of international (=ineffective to useless) diplomacy right now...;)
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
How did Israel become such a strong nation? and what are the intentions of Israel?
----
The Palestinian people are an oppressed people. They are fighting back, how often do we fault an oppressed people? Did we fault the ANC when fighting against the goverment before the 90's?
Or what about the Jewish people fighting against the Nazis to higher degrees. Would you still of said 'so since the Nazis are stronger.......'and then go on about how the Jewish people had so and so faults while fighting for survival.
Blame goes onto the shoulders of Israel. If someone breaks into your home, takes it over and invites their family in....settles if you will..Then If you decided to fight back, would it make at all any sense to blame you for doing so?
I'm not defending Israel. look at what happen first in this case. rockets were fired, blockade went up. no? I fall in the camp where both sides are at fault. it seems like many around here are firmly against Israel and thats fine, I have no problem with that.
Would you fall into the same camp if it was apartheid South Africa? Or any other oppressed group of people Vs a powerful oppressor?
Like I said, the Palestinians are fighting back. and No, rockets were not fired than the blockade went up. That's just an Israeli excuse. Propaganda.
On a parallel note, I always think that not enough attention is paid to the bad things that Jewish partisan groups and the French resistance took part in during World war II. Too much attention is paid to the crimes of the Nazis whilst forgetting the bad things that the resistance got up to. I wonder why this is? :sarcasm:
I mean, in the case of Israel/Palestine; one side is a nuclear armed state, supported by the worlds only superpower, and is equipped with a modern army which includes the worlds 2nd biggest fleet of F16's. It has been engaged in a 30 year illegal occupation, and has been accused of countless war crimes and crimes against humanity.
And the other side is largely living in abject poverty, struggles to feed itself, and is armed with nothing but crappy homemade rockets.
I sure do pity those poor Israeli's. It must be a terrible burden to have to steal someone's land, beat them, shoot them, demolish their homes, kill their children, imprison them, slowly starve them, and fire rockets and missiles at them from F16 fighter jets - all in the name of self-defense.
Palestinians are victims, no doubt. but to say that an organization like Hamas is innocent is down right ignorant in my opinion.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/04/mideast/index.html
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
'In a letter to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Mahmoud Zahar even mentioned the possibility of a "two-state" solution in which Palestinians have "freedom and independence side by side with our neighbors" -- despite Hamas' long-standing vow to eradicate Israel.
In his letter, Zahar [...] claimed that Israel is continuing "illegal colonial policies" and using "excessive military force."
"Israel is undertaking all these illegal measures as the world watches and listens," Zahar told Annan. "Israel continues to commit these grave violations of international law ... without any concern, acting as if it is a state above the law."
Zahar also said that the Palestinian Authority is hoping that nations threatening to withhold aid from the Palestinian Authority because of Hamas' leadership will reconsider "their positions and their hasty decisions."
"We expect the international community to respect the democratic choice of the Palestinian people and to work with this new Cabinet in order to enhance this democratic course and to protect political pluralism through the achievement of peace and stability in the region," he said.
The United States, Israel and the European Union regard Hamas as a terrorist group, and the United states and Canada have formally cut ties with the new government...'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7745783.stm
Israel has temporarily re-opened a border crossing with the Gaza Strip to allow in essential supplies of food.
It has also allowed delivery, through a pipe line, of diesel fuel for Gaza's only power plant.
It is only the second time in three weeks that Israel has permitted aid deliveries into the territory.
It tightened its blockade of the Hamas-controlled territory earlier in November after rocket attacks by Palestinian militants.
The militants said their attacks, which caused minor damage but no serious injuries, were in retaliation for an Israeli army raid into Gaza.
UN officials say Gaza is facing a humanitarian catastrophe, and have urged Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to ease the blockade.
'Minimum impact'
Israel allowed at least 40 lorryloads of humanitarian aid and other goods into Gaza via the Kerem Shalom crossing point.
Shipments were last allowed on 17 November, also for a single day.
Future aid shipments depended on whether cross-border violence could be curbed, Israeli officials said.
But aid workers in the territory said the deliveries would have a minimum impact as reserves were already so depleted, and they needed a steady supply of aid to alleviate the shortages.
"It is just not enough," said United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNWRA) spokesman Christopher Gunness, quoted by Reuters news agency.
The Israeli authorities also opened the Nahal Oz terminal for the delivery of fuel to Gaza's power plant, for the first time since the blockade was intensified on 4 November.
Let's hope they now begin abiding by international law and dismantle the separation barrier, and then withdraw completely from the Occupied Territories.
'Alongside attacks by its military, Israel's government says its Gaza closure strategy aims to deter Palestinian militants from firing rockets across the border at Israeli towns.....'
<blank look>
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
A United Nations spokesman slammed the amount of international food aid Israel allowed into the Gaza Strip on Monday, amid mounting international concern over a deterioration of the humanitarian situation in the besieged, aid-dependent Palestinian territory. "It is most emphatically not enough," said UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) spokesman Chris Gunness. "This drip-drip approach will not allow UNRWA to function."
With stocks running dangerously low, UNRWA had expressed fears it would have to suspend its food distribution for the second time since Israel completely sealed off the territory at the beginning of the month.
Various UN and EU officials have denounced the effect of the siege on Gaza's population, half of whom are dependent on handouts for survival, saying the action amounts to "collective punishment of a civilian population." Such an action is illegal under international law and defined by the Fourth Geneva Convention as a war crime.
http://www.dailystar.com.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7747363.stm
Gaza crossing resealed by Israel
Israel has resealed a border crossing with the Gaza Strip that it had temporarily opened to allow in a limited amount of food and fuel.
Israeli officials said they took the step after a rocket was fired at Israel late on Monday.
You think that's the right question to be asking? "Would the crossing still be open today if a rocket hadn't been fired into Israel?"
How about answering this question instead?: What right does Israel have to continue it's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and what right does it have to collectively punish 1.5 million people?
answer is yes.
That's like asking "Would the Nazis have continued throwing scraps of bread over the wall of the Warsaw ghetto if the Jews inside hadn't started the uprising in 1943?"
And what's the answer to the other question?
What right does Israel have to continue it's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and what right does it have to collectively punish 1.5 million people?
naděje umírá poslední
they don't
when it doubt, throw in a Nazi comparison. point is, the checkpoint would probably be open had Palestinians not fired a rocket yesterday.
my point remains and is true.
In a nutshell, they want peaceful cheap labor slaves who are easier to steal from and don't make such a fuss over getting screwed over.
who wouldn't I suppose?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
so they should probably just continue to fire rockets into Israel. who knows they may get lucky and hit some kids on their way to school! viva la resistance! whole lot of good its doing them eh? maybe they should try a peaceful resistance.
Your point is a moot point. It's not relevant. It's just a distraction and an excuse.
When in doubt? What is it exactly that you presume I've been in any doubt over?
it was you (and others) posting about how horrible this blockade is correct? and it is horrible. well, Israel opened the blockade, which is what you want correct? then it was closed because more rockets were fired last night.
fire no rockets, blockade remains lifted. moot my ass.
They just did. But Israel failed to stick to the terms of the truce from the outset.