AMT: Firearms Education Class

69charger

Jeremy1012 wrote:

What's your point?

Read your own question.

Jeremy1012

69charger wrote:

Read your own question.

I never said it was constitutionally possible, I offered a hypothesis.

69charger

Jeremy1012 wrote:

And yet statistically you're far more likely to be murdered than me. Funny that.

I truly hope the day never comes when people like you are able to walk around with a gun on your person, just in case someone attacks you.

Wrong.

There were 14,000 crimes per 100,000 people in London 1999-2000.

I live in rural America with a rate of 2,306 per 100,000 people.

That's for all types of crime.

Have fun being a victim.

69charger

Jeremy1012 wrote:

I never said it was constitutionally possible, I offered a hypothesis.

Why bother. It becomes irrelevant to this conversation as it is not allowed.

Bring space aliens into this discussion if you want but it will not serve to move the discussion forward.

Jeremy1012

69charger wrote:

Again ladies and gents this line of argument is moot as we have the right to keep and bear arms and it isn't going away.

My point is to educate and expose people to the facts about firearms, to make then less scary. Do you know the difference between semi-automatic and fully-automatic? Do you judge firearms based on appearance? Do you know the four rules of safe firearm handling? Do you know where to get triaing in your community?

These are constructive questions and could actually help someone.

So far Jeanie was the only one with a practical question.

Moot or not, we are all entitled to our opinions and you asked for them openly in the first post. You even invited blanket anti-gun statements

Of course, in your opinion, anti-gun sentiment could only be born of ignorance, huh? I mean, us non-American liberals have probably never even held a gun right? We need to be educated right?

I've fired many different types of guns, I'm extremely familiar with the L85A1 IW and L85AI LSW assault rifles, I have fired them on several ranges, in competition, with real live ammo, I could have turned to my left or right and blown a person's head off. I can strip one to its composite parts and reassemble it with a blindfold on. I know how it works, I understand it. I still don't see any reason why a gun should exist in a person's home or on their person. The fact that your government affords you the right does not make it right.

Jeremy1012

69charger wrote:

Wrong.

There were 14,000 crimes per 100,000 people in London 1999-2000.

I live in rural America with a rate of 2,306 per 100,000 people.

That's for all types of crime.

Have fun being a victim.

We're not talking about all types of crime. We're talking about guns. Find me a statistic that says I'm more likely to be shot than you.

69charger

Jeremy1012 wrote:

The fact that your government affords you the right does not make it right.

Fine, you stated you position and debating whether is it is right or not is not the point of this thread. Start your own or keep derailing the line of this discussion. Free country, right?

BTW, we won our freedom with firearms.

69charger

Jeremy1012 wrote:

We're not talking about all types of crime. We're talking about guns. Find me a statistic that says I'm more likely to be shot than you.

You opened that up with all your 'hypotheticals'. So why are Londoners so violent?

Jeremy1012

69charger wrote:

You opened that up with all your 'hypotheticals'. So why are Londoners so violent?

Why are any people violent? It's a complex issue and I'm sure a thousand opinions could be offered and little concensus be agreed on. The violent crime in London is primarily youth-based and primarily knife-based. With a few exceptions, the vast majority of victims are young black males from inner-city areas, placed plagued by gangs etc. Places where the murder rate would no doubt skyrocket if guns were legalised. These are fairly concentrated incidents.

At the same time though, it is massive news, all over every channel, when one person is killed, it is a running story that so many youths have been killed this year in London. As many people are offed in one fell swoop in school shootings in America and no one seems to think maybe there's a problem. In London initiatives are taken to prevent it. Knives amnesties give people a chance to hand in their weapons and police receive THOUSANDS. Meanwhile America clings to its little old piece of paper declaring their rights desperately, so sure that it's nothing to do with guns, it's just people. People will always kill each other. You can reduce it though.

69charger

Jeremy1012 wrote:

People will always kill each other. You can reduce it though.

Not at the expense of leaving law abiding citizens defenseless. Solve the social problems, don't create an entire poplulace of victims.

Medicated-Genius

"Absolutely!"
Why?

69charger wrote:

If your asking what makes America a violent society, again I think you have to factor in the 'urban' factor. Violent crime overall occurs at a rate 5.4 times greater per 100,000 in urban centers (pop. 250,000+) than in rural areas.

Black on Black crime is a huge statistic driving the higher urban crime rates. In 1998, an average 15-year-old white male faced a 1-in-345 chance of being murdered before his 45th birthday. For black males, the chances were 1 in 45. And for black males in Washington, D.C.—which still has one of the highest murder rates of any city in America—it's 1 in 12.

According to Bureau of Justice statistics, between 1976 and 2005, blacks, while 13 percent of the population, committed over 52 percent of the nation's homicides and were 46 percent of the homicide victims. Ninety-four percent of black homicide victims had a black person as their murderer.

Blacks are not only the major victims of homicide; blacks suffer high rates of all categories of serious violent crime, and another black is most often the perpetrator.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5012 <--Wrtten by Walter Williams who happens to be black.

So go ahead and call me racist but these are the facts. I guess the facts are racist.

Well, if these are the facts, I don't believe they are racist comments. It appears gun violence is predominantly a black problem in America. Do you know the stats for other areas, comparatively...... where the same circumstances apply. Poor, urban, black areas, relaxed gun laws...... what are the numbers in other countries? These are genuine questions here, because I don't know the stats. I just know that a gun murder in America doesn't even seem to make the news unless it involves some gunman on a rampage shooting as many people as he can. In my country, any gun related death makes the new, coz it's not an everyday event.
I do believe that less guns in society will lead to less gun related deaths. There seems to be a perception over there, that if the guns are taken away from the responsible gun owners, that they will still end up in the hands of criminals and society will become even more violent. That certainly hasn't been the case over here. We had a shocking massacre over here in 1996, and immediately after there were huge gun reforms. A government buy back scheme where people had the option to hand in their guns, be paid for them, no questions asked. We no longer have the right to own handguns, semi auto or automatic weapons. Sports shooters can still obtain a gun license and legally own rifles and such. And there hasn't been an enormous increase in violent crime. Sure, there is always the criminal element that gets their hands on a weapon, and the occasional shooting, but certainly not the huge increase in violence that the gun supporters made all the fuss about when these reforms were coming into place.

Collin

Strangest Tribe wrote:

Well.... I don't really either but wouldn't it be easier to do if the population was disarmed?

Is it that hard to understand?

Yes, it's really that hard to understand.

Strangest Tribe wrote:

I could probably make a pretty decent gun in a few days or weeks....

my point is the technology won't just disappear because you would like to "wish-away" the handguns....this is the simple fact of the matter....

I would make a homemade gun as soon as they took the real ones away....

What do you mean disarmed? Making guns is easy and simple. Just because you disarm a nation doesn't mean the technology disappears. I'm sure gun-loving America would be making guns in no time.

There's also of course the fact that criminals can get guns everywhere. At least that's how the argument goes, right? Take away the guns and only the criminals will have them.

So, take away a nation's guns and half of the population will just make them, the other half will buy them illegally on the streets, like criminals.

I love these arguments.

"No, you can't take away our guns because if you do we're victims and powerless."

"Banning guns is pointless, criminals will still be able to buy them, and people will make them at home."

Collin

Strangest Tribe wrote:

really though...I've been around guns all my life and have had my share of knuckeldusters, but I've never been mad enough to ever consider using a gun... it has never crossed my mind...

So? Do you think everyone plans in advance? Have you ever heard about crimes of passion?

Do you think killing their spouse crossed these people's minds? Of course not.

There are a lot of people out there who never wanted to kill or harm others (I'm not talking about self defense) but who did it anyway.

Collin

69charger wrote:

Take away the "urban element" and the vast majority of our country is witness to very little gun crime.

Perhaps, but that's not how it works. You cannot take away the "urban element".

So go ahead and call me racist but these are the facts. I guess the facts are racist

You're only racist if you believe that these people are not part of the US. There's a porblem with violence in the US. It doesn't matter who's violent.

What's the point of this argument anyway? People are talking about violence in the US and you simply say 'take away the most violent groups and there's very little gun crime here.'

My point is to educate and expose people to the facts about firearms, to make then less scary.

You think everyone who is against guns is scared of them or don't know the facts about them. How very condescending of you. Granted, I know very little about guns but I know what I need to know.

I've said this before I don't have a problem with guns and I don't think they're scary. What bothers me is how some people try to represent guns here.

A gun will guarantee your safety.

Wrong. You can be the best trained person, with years of experience... a gun does not guarantee your safety at all. There was an example in the other thread by acoustic guy, he had a gun for protection, someone broke into his house while he was away. His wife came home, the burglar hid (this is the more realistic version. If they are there to steal your stuff, they probably don't want to kill you.). Point is, he could have killed her. Family not protected, despite owning a gun. Even better, imagine this guy coming into your house, you're away. You come home, he's going through your stuff and he finds your gun (I do believe you said you didn't lock it, and maybe even kept it loaded?), he comes down and he kills you. There's another scenario in this thread posted by scb, a guy actually disarmed the person with the gun and shot (at the floor).

There are probably just as many scenarios in which you (person with gun for protection) ends up being shot. Also, remember, not everyone with a gun is like you. I know the MT is filled with people who grew up on shooting ranges, had 16 guns before they were 6, had years of training etc but I'm sure that a great percentage of Americans doesn't have the same level of expertise. I guess you agree, because you want to teach gun owners to be responsible.

So can we please stop with the bullshit that a gun will protect you. It's a gamble. If you really want an honest debate about guns, or an honest informative thread about guns perhaps one of the first things you should mention is the fact that life is not a movie.

Yeah, it's very tough and macho to say you'll kill a twenty year old petty thief because he's an addiction and he wants to take your toaster, but actually killing someone is a different story.

Rhinocerous Surprise

69charger wrote:

Consider yourself a future victim. Legalizing guns would allow you a level playingfield. So, God forbid, as you lay on the cold ground with the life flowing from the stabwound on your neck, staring up into a clear night, I bet you'll think about how nice it would have been to at least had the means to defend yourself.

I guess that's the fundamental difference between folks like you and I. I refuse to be a victim.

Some would say living in that kind of fear all your life makes you a victim.

Collin

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Some would say living in that kind of fear all your life makes you a victim.

Exactly, most people don't refuse to be a victim, they're just not.

And like I said, you can be a victim with or without a gun.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Collin wrote:

Exactly, most people don't refuse to be a victim, they're just not.

And like I said, you can be a victim with or without a gun.

Hey, I'm a victim of many things... some awful fashion choices, some really bad hairstyles, some poor choices as regards lifestyle... But owning a gun wouldn't make me any less of a victim.

Commy

I think Charger has a point, he's just not sure what it is. Its not that guns help protect people, quite the opposite, I think the point here is that America has a very violent culture. Capitalism breeds it, but its especially apparent in the US, where we are literally taught from a very young age that violence solves problems, from television to police action to government action. Violence is often the first resort in any conflict (when it should be the last).

From day one we are taught to compete, to look out for ourselves. And success is measured in wealth. With inner cities being treated as third world countries, literally, to some extent, the people within these area have very little oportunity to clime the social ladder-other than through violence. Their only chance at 'success' is through force-to take what they are otherwise unable to obtain. And so it has become commonplace, part of our culture. Gang violence is rarely even reported on the news these days, though it happens every day.

And not just violence. Drug use and sales are part of this culture. People need to escape from this shitty existence here in these third world cities, from this culture period, and so resort to heavy drug use in some cases. A culture people want to be a part of has very little use for heavy drugs.

All of this points to a very violent culture that is becoming pervasive throughout the US, predominant in inner cities, and encouraged by the status quo. With firearms readily available it only adds to the volitile situation. take away the guns, sure crime will still exist, but its not easy to gun down your classmates without a gun. Or so easy to rob a liquor store with a knife. and so on.

People are the problem to be sure, a product of their environment, but allowing them access to guns (designed for one purpose) can only have one outcome.

69charger

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Some would say living in that kind of fear all your life makes you a victim.

I don't live in fear. I am prepared.

Just because I own an umbrella doesn't mean I own it because I'm scared to get wet. It means I am prepared in case it rains.

You folks are the ones living in fear of inanimate objects.

Rhinocerous Surprise

69charger wrote:

I don't live in fear. I am prepared.

Just because I own an umbrella doesn't mean I own it because I'm scared to get wet. It means I am prepared in case it rains.

You folks are the ones living in fear of inanimate objects.

Hardly analogous. Owning an umbrella can't create rainfall. Owning a gun can create gun crime.

Besides which, it's a ridiculous argument. "I bought this trebuchet. It's not that I'm scared of enemy camps from the Middle Ages, but boy howdy, I'm prepared to siege 'em when the time comes." You don't need the trebuchet, and you don't need the gun.