AMT: Firearms Education Class

69charger

There seem to be a lot of anti-gun folk on this board (imagine that right!) that have biases based in part on misinformation or lack of understanding of the firearms they hate. I'd like to do my part to educate open minded people and hopefully dispell some of the hysteria surrounding firearms.

If you have a question ask, if you are here to just say you hate guns feel free to do that too.

Ask away...

Commy

69charger wrote:

There seem to be a lot of anti-gun folk on this board (imagine that right!) that have biases based in part on misinformation or lack of understanding of the firearms they hate. I'd like to do my part to educate open minded people and hopefully dispell some of the hysteria surrounding firearms.

If you have a question ask, if you are here to just say you hate guns feel free to do that too.

Ask away...

why does the US have one of the highest crime rates in the world, with its very liberal gun laws?

fugawzi

Commy wrote:

why does the US have one of the highest crime rates in the world, with its very liberal gun laws?

I was actually gonna ask why do we have one of the highest, if not the highest, death rates from guns in the world. Not to mention the most school shootings.

dunkman

my question is: how did these people in schools die, and were all the murder weapons legally acquired?

October 2007: A teenage gunman reportedly shoots and wounds five people at a high school in Cleveland, Ohio, before killing himself.

April 2007: At least 32 people are killed in two shooting incidents in the campus of Virginia Tech university in Virginia.

October 2006: A 32-year-old gunman shoots dead at least five girls at an Amish school in Pennsylvania, before killing himself

September 2006: Gunman in Colorado shoots and fatally wounds a teenage schoolgirl, then kills himself; two days later a teenager kills the headteacher of a school in Cazenovia, Wisconsin

November 2005: Student in Tennessee shoots dead an assistant principal and wounds two other administrators

March 2005: Minnesota schoolboy kills nine, then shoots himself

May 2004: Four people injured in shooting at a school in Maryland

April 2003: Teenager shoots dead head-teacher at a Pennsylvania school, then kills himself

March 2001: Pupil opens fire at a school in California, killing two students

February 2000: Six-year-old girl shot dead by classmate in Michigan

November 1999: Thirteen-year-old girl shot dead by a classmate in New Mexico

May 1999: Student injures six pupils in shoot-out in Georgia

April 1999: Two teenagers shoot dead 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves at Columbine School in Colorado

June 1998: Two adults hurt in shooting by teenage student at high school in Virginia

May 1998: Fifteen-year-old boy shoots himself in the head after taking a girl hostage

May 1998: Fifteen-year-old shoots dead two students in school cafeteria in Oregon

April 1998: Fourteen-year-old shoots dead a teacher and wounds two students in Pennsylvania

March 1998: Two boys, 11 and 13, kill four girls and a teacher in Arkansas

December 1997: Fourteen-year-old boy kills three students in Kentucky

October 1997: Sixteen-year-old boy stabs mother, then shoots dead two students at school in Mississippi, injuring several others

actually i know the answer.

dunkman

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children aged less than 15 was nearly 12 times higher than among children in the other 25 industrialized countries combined. The firearm-related homicide rate in the United States was nearly 16 times higher than that in all of the other industrialized countries combined; the firearm-related suicide rate was nearly 11 times higher; and, the unintentional firearm-related death rate was nine times higher....



my question is... did all these children die via the method of 'boogey man'?

brokenarrow

dunkman wrote:

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children aged less than 15 was nearly 12 times higher than among children in the other 25 industrialized countries combined. The firearm-related homicide rate in the United States was nearly 16 times higher than that in all of the other industrialized countries combined; the firearm-related suicide rate was nearly 11 times higher; and, the unintentional firearm-related death rate was nine times higher....



my question is... did all these children die via the method of 'boogey man'?

Personally I believe they all had easy access to firearms in their households, the households of others, and the ever popular, let's just go to a firearms show and purchase them ourselves because we're of age.
The acquiring of them in households is due to dumbasses who are incapable of securing their firearms properly, keeping them out of the hands of the children.
In one case in PA a few years back, the kids simply went into their Grandfather's bedroom and pulled a loaded rifle off of the wall that was proudly displayed as art over his and his wife's bed. He claimed he thought it was unloaded. The kids played with the rifle, one of the boys was shot by the other boy, what a surprise huh?
fortunately it wasn't fatal.


I would like to know how this school district is allowed to get away with this..

http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/top-news/?i=55269


and how it isn't a bit more responsible to simply hire a resource officer if they are that worried. Their student body is 100 students, that's smaller than most elementary schools.
Most middle and high schools around the country now have resource officers, to patrol, to teach gang and drug awareness etc.

Allowing faculty members/teachers to carry concealed weapons?

This article just simply stunned me this week when I read it online.

SoonForgotten2

If it's not guns that kill people, but people who kill people, in societies where it has been proven that people are all too eager to kill people, should access to weaponry, such as guns, not be heavily restricted in order to protect the general populace?

Medicated-Genius

69charger wrote:

There seem to be a lot of anti-gun folk on this board (imagine that right!) that have biases based in part on misinformation or lack of understanding of the firearms they hate. I'd like to do my part to educate open minded people and hopefully dispell some of the hysteria surrounding firearms.

If you have a question ask, if you are here to just say you hate guns feel free to do that too.

Ask away...

Ok, setting aside all the stats about gun related deaths in America and what causes people to shoot each other............. my question is this..


Whats the attraction for wanting to have a gun?

I mean plenty would say it's for protection, but most responsible gun owners wouldn't keep a loaded gun in the house........ and well, if threatened, an unloaded gun is about as useful as a loaf of bread. So, whats the attraction for wanting to own one?

Jeanie

69charger wrote:

There seem to be a lot of anti-gun folk on this board (imagine that right!) that have biases based in part on misinformation or lack of understanding of the firearms they hate. I'd like to do my part to educate open minded people and hopefully dispell some of the hysteria surrounding firearms.

If you have a question ask, if you are here to just say you hate guns feel free to do that too.

Ask away...

Ok, I have a question.

Given that I live in Australia and can't buy any kind of automatic or semi automatic weapon or handgun what is a good gun that is light, easy to manouvre and doesn't make me want to drop it and run (ie shotgun) that would be appropriate in a rural setting?

nside20

I guess my question is why do places like Chicago, that have done everything they can to disarm law abiding citizens have a surge of shootings this year. Why do people think that more laws are going to make it harder for criminals to get guns? As far as all the child shootings, I'm going to have to say that personal responsibility and common sense have gone the way of the do do bird in this country. Why you have a loaded gun in your house where kids can get at it is beyond me. I don't know what the answer is. Personally I don't think most people are smart enough to own guns, or dogs, maybe fish?.... on second thought not even fish.

mammasan

nside20 wrote:

I guess my question is why do places like Chicago, that have done everything they can to disarm law abiding citizens have a surge of shootings this year. Why do people think that more laws are going to make it harder for criminals to get guns? As far as all the child shootings, I'm going to have to say that personal responsibility and common sense have gone the way of the do do bird in this country. Why you have a loaded gun in your house where kids can get at it is beyond me. I don't know what the answer is. Personally I don't think most people are smart enough to own guns, or dogs, maybe fish?.... on second thought not even fish.

I can't speak to the situation in Chicago but here in New Jersey we have some of the strictest gun laws. An extremely extensive background check is conducted before you can purchase a fire arm but there is still a high rate of murders committed with a fire arm in our major urban areas. Statistics show that money of the crimes are committed with illegal firearms purchase in other near-by states that have far more lax gun laws.

Now I believe that any law abiding citizen should have the right to go purchase a firearm, be it for sport, protection or just an avid collector. My problem is the very lax background check laws that some states have. Any one with some type of mental defect, criminal record or violent past should not be allowed to own a fire arm and I see nothing wrong with have a waiting period of a few days to make sure that a proper background check is conducted. This does not violate a qualified individual's right to own a fire arm. It merely serves the purpose of making sure that the purchaser will not pose a threat to society and use that weapon in an inappropriate manner. Now we need all states to inact these laws because as long as there are states that continue to have lax gun laws you will continue to have illegal guns on our streets.

Jeremy1012

69charger wrote:

There seem to be a lot of anti-gun folk on this board (imagine that right!) that have biases based in part on misinformation or lack of understanding of the firearms they hate. I'd like to do my part to educate open minded people and hopefully dispell some of the hysteria surrounding firearms.

If you have a question ask, if you are here to just say you hate guns feel free to do that too.

Ask away...

Yeah that's right, anti-gun opinion can only be due to misinformation or lack of understanding.

Understand this. The last mass school shooting in the UK was Dunblane in 1996, after which handguns were banned entirely. That's 12 years.

It's no coincidence that suicide rates in the UK are higher among farmers than other jobs. Ready access to a gun means that *shock* a person is more likely to use one.

If you consider criticism of your young people blowing each other's brains out in school every few months to be "hysteria", you need to get a grip on reality.

JonnyPistachio

SoonForgotten2 wrote:

If it's not guns that kill people, but people who kill people, in societies where it has been proven that people are all too eager to kill people, should access to weaponry, such as guns, not be heavily restricted in order to protect the general populace?

I dislike this saying - its not guns that kill people, but people who kill people.

my best friend discharge a shotgun and the blast missed my head by about a foot. He had no intentions obviously of kiling me, but that near accident wouldnt have happened if it was a rubber spatula. I know what they're gonna say - stupid, uneducated people making a stupid mistake...blah, blah, blah...

the irony is, he is now a police officer.

OffHeGoes29

I'm not a big gun nut, in fact I rather spend money on my guitar, but I do enjoy going to the range to fire a couple rounds with friends. I have a shotgun for the home, but now that I share a house with other people, it's locked in my storage until I live alone again.

There is nothing wrong with guns, criminals are still going to commit crimes with guns even if you disbanded weapons here. You won't curb crimes and violence with gun restrictions. Its just people generalizing that all guns are bad, because they don't have any real answer to solve the problem. School shootings still happen in countries with tight gun laws....Germany, and I think most recently in Finland.

Strangest Tribe

I once made a gun out of 3/4 galvanized gas pipe, some springs, and a block of wood. I melted down lead tire weights to make the ammo. I could use lighter fluid or black powder to fire it.

Would banning firearms make me forget how to make a gun? Or would more children die trying to make such a gun that could easily explode in their face?

Education and training is a better approach.

Strangest Tribe

More children die from drunk idiots than gun idiots. Let's ban alcohol.

Same argument.

SoonForgotten2

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

I'm not a big gun nut, in fact I rather spend money on my guitar, but I do enjoy going to the range to fire a couple rounds with friends. I have a shotgun for the home, but now that I share a house with other people, it's locked in my storage until I live alone again.

There is nothing wrong with guns, criminals are still going to commit crimes with guns even if you disbanded weapons here. You won't curb crimes and violence with gun restrictions. Its just people generalizing that all guns are bad, because they don't have any real answer to solve the problem. School shootings still happen in countries with tight gun laws....Germany, and I think most recently in Finland.

Finland does not have tight gun laws. I think the number was something like 3 million firearms for the 5.5 million people there.

You make it sound like criminals are the only people killing others, when the fact that is not the case. I'm certain a very high percentage of murders occur outside of other crinimal activity. Heat of the moment arguments or shooting sprees usually seem to involve otherwise ordinary citizens.

SoonForgotten2

Strangest Tribe wrote:

More children die from drunk idiots than gun idiots. Let's ban alcohol.

Same argument.

That's a poor argument. You could just as well say ban the cars the drunk idiots drive. The alcohol is a problem to others when it is misused, even then when misused by a small minority. The purpose of any firearm is to create damage to something.

Not knowing how to handle your alcohol is likely to end up with you passed out in your own vomit. Not knowing how to handle a gun is likely to get your or someone else killed.

Collin

Strangest Tribe wrote:

More children die from drunk idiots than gun idiots. Let's ban alcohol.

Same argument.

Who's calling for a ban?

dunkman

Strangest Tribe wrote:

I once made a gun out of 3/4 galvanized gas pipe, some springs, and a block of wood. I melted down lead tire weights to make the ammo. I could use lighter fluid or black powder to fire it.

Would banning firearms make me forget how to make a gun? Or would more children die trying to make such a gun that could easily explode in their face?

Education and training is a better approach.

man, you should have totally been in the A-Team.


you can make a gun out of those materials... i bet 99% of US gun owners wouldnt have a clue how to.

eyedclaar

dunkman wrote:

man, you should have totally been in the A-Team.


you can make a gun out of those materials... i bet 99% of US gun owners wouldnt have a clue how to.

Give a man a weapon and you know his limits. Take his weapons away and who knows what he comes up with. Making bombs is a lot easier than making guns.

dunkman

eyedclaar wrote:

Give a man a weapon and you know his limits. Take his weapons away and who knows what he comes up with. Making bombs is a lot easier than making guns.

they took our weapons off us in Scotland... whats your point?

4 kids die per day as a result of a handgun in the US... now i'm fucking awesome at using google, but i cant find a stat about "number of kids who die per day as a result of bomb making incomptence" that comes close to that figure

eyedclaar

dunkman wrote:

they took our weapons off us in Scotland... whats your point?

4 kids die per day as a result of a handgun in the US... now i'm fucking awesome at using google, but i cant find a stat about "number of kids who die per day as a result of bomb making incomptence" that comes close to that figure

My point is that right now all the kids are killing themselves with guns, but if we actually managed to take all the guns away, who knows what lethal devices people would come up with.

We're a violent people over here, we aren't going to stop if someone takes our guns away.

dunkman

eyedclaar wrote:

My point is that right now all the kids are killing themselves with guns, but if we actually managed to take all the guns away, who knows what lethal devices people would come up with.

ok we have no handguns in the UK, or Aus, or NZ, or Japan, France, Iceland, Germany, Spain, etc etc... please please please show me a link or a stat that shows me that since those countries above banned or tightly regulated guns that kids were now in dying as a result of some other 'homemade lethal device'

see 4 kids die per day as a result of a handgun... mostly by accident and suicides... sure some kids would still die in accidents of some other kind, and of course some kids would still commit suicide... but it would be far fewer.

I dont buy the whole 'they'll research how to make bombs' argument... kids shoot up schools in america because they can and the guns are within easy reach... in the UK before 1996 people could own handguns.. now they cant... school bombings using techniques discovered on http://www.makeyourownbomb.org havent materialised...

Collin

dunkman wrote:

ok we have no handguns in the UK, or Aus, or NZ, or Japan, France, Iceland, Germany, Spain, etc etc... please please please show me a link or a stat that shows me that since those countries above banned or tightly regulated guns that kids were now in dying as a result of some other 'homemade lethal device'

see 4 kids die per day as a result of a handgun... mostly by accident and suicides... sure some kids would still die in accidents of some other kind, and of course some kids would still commit suicide... but it would be far fewer.

I dont buy the whole 'they'll research how to make bombs' argument... kids shoot up schools in america because they can and the guns are within easy reach... in the UK before 1996 people could own handguns.. now they cant... school bombings using techniques discovered on http://www.makeyourownbomb.org havent materialised...

I guess the answer is in the second part of his post. Americans are violent. They're set on killing and they'll kill with or without guns. So maybe American kids would try to make their own guns and bombs, you know, so they can get their fix.

But I have a hard time believing that. I'm not really for a ban, but there's a serious problem with guns in the US and arguments like 'kids will make their own guns or bombs' don't offer a solution, it's a way of saying we like the status quo, let's keep it this way.

Like you said, there are plenty of countries where guns are not easily accessible, mine is one. Kids don't make their own guns here. I'm not saying there's no violence because there definitely is, all I'm saying is I'd rather face a knife than a gun and a school massacre is kind of hard to accomplish with a knife, or even with two.

eyedclaar

dunkman wrote:

ok we have no handguns in the UK, or Aus, or NZ, or Japan, France, Iceland, Germany, Spain, etc etc... please please please show me a link or a stat that shows me that since those countries above banned or tightly regulated guns that kids were now in dying as a result of some other 'homemade lethal device'

see 4 kids die per day as a result of a handgun... mostly by accident and suicides... sure some kids would still die in accidents of some other kind, and of course some kids would still commit suicide... but it would be far fewer.

I dont buy the whole 'they'll research how to make bombs' argument... kids shoot up schools in america because they can and the guns are within easy reach... in the UK before 1996 people could own handguns.. now they cant... school bombings using techniques discovered on http://www.makeyourownbomb.org havent materialised...

Like I said, I'm talking about America here. I know a bunch of people who made pipe bombs as kids, before they were allowed to own and use guns. Making them is easy. I don't know for sure what would happen, but I know Americans aren't giving up on owning weapons even if they are outlawed.

I actually support gun control despite owning a lot of guns. I'm not sure how to make it work, but in theory, getting guns out of the hands of most Americans seems like a good idea. I'm just not sure what the consequences would be or how it could be enforced.

Strangest Tribe

dunkman wrote:

man, you should have totally been in the A-Team.


you can make a gun out of those materials... i bet 99% of US gun owners wouldnt have a clue how to.

You're saying 99% of people that own guns can't conceptualize how they work???

That's an amazing statement.

eyedclaar

Strangest Tribe wrote:

You're saying 99% of people that own guns can't conceptualize how they work???

That's an amazing statement.

Yeah, it isn't exactly rocket surgery.

Jeremy1012

dunkman wrote:

ok we have no handguns in the UK, or Aus, or NZ, or Japan, France, Iceland, Germany, Spain, etc etc... please please please show me a link or a stat that shows me that since those countries above banned or tightly regulated guns that kids were now in dying as a result of some other 'homemade lethal device'

see 4 kids die per day as a result of a handgun... mostly by accident and suicides... sure some kids would still die in accidents of some other kind, and of course some kids would still commit suicide... but it would be far fewer.

I dont buy the whole 'they'll research how to make bombs' argument... kids shoot up schools in america because they can and the guns are within easy reach... in the UK before 1996 people could own handguns.. now they cant... school bombings using techniques discovered on http://www.makeyourownbomb.org havent materialised...

Listen to this man, he speaks the gospel.

For a change

Collin

Strangest Tribe wrote:

You're saying 99% of people that own guns can't conceptualize how they work???

That's an amazing statement.

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=305690

eyedclaar

Collin wrote:

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=305690

No, no, we're just politically, socially, economically, and book-learned ignorant. We know how to make weapons.