well, it's official...

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I don't think the goal of the Palestinians is to push out or take over Israeli land or wish death to all Israeli people. I know there are some extremist but that doesn't discredit the Palestinian people as a whole.

You're entirely right. It is not the goal of all the Palestinians to do this. It is the goal of Hezbollah and Hamas, among others, to do this.

Has Syria or Iran gave them billions in aid and support?

Certainly. Iran gives Hezbollah alone an estimated $100 million per year.

If they have it sure doesn't show.

It doesn't? Do you think those 2,000 rockets they've fired grow on trees? Do you think the funds for payments made to Hezbollah guerillas are raised at bake sales?

You can find any perspective you wish on youtube...it's a silly argument, all you have to do is search for the topic you want to see and chances are it will be there....right, left, up or down. It is simply video files put on the internet.

It is simply video files put on the internet. And they're watched by millions upon millions of people everyday.

There is not a difference in the innocents that lost their lives, however, Arabs aren't coming in and taking over when they fire rockets.

Are you naive enough to think they wouldn't if they could?

They are trying to scare the Israelis

This is not Halloween. They are trying to kill the Israelis.

they are not foolish enough to think their rockets or bombers will destroy all that much. It is wrong, but a scare tactic/angry retaliation and an invasion/occupation are two very different things. If they were the same, I would treat them accordingly.

Ok. What occupation are you referring to? The one that ended 6 years ago?

I didn't justify their actions. Israel does not equal Hezbollah/Hamas.

Israel has support from the most powerful and wealthy nations on this planet. They live in prosperity because of this. If these people are so equal in wrongness then why is that?

Because our government's viewpoint is as flawed as your own. And for precisely the same reasons in fact.

Are the Israeli's homes being knocked down?

Yes. See:

Here's a news report from Israel from a few days ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acBx_DMFji0&search=Haifa%20rocket

Are the Israeli children malnourished and living in poverty?

Some of them, yes. Roughly 20% of Israeli families live under the poverty line.

Are the Israelis demonized by the world as monsters by the majority.

Of course. Throughout much of Europe, and much of the Islamic world they are classified right next to satan himself, much in the same fashion that people here put many Palestinians in the same category. In the halls of the UN they are the primary world pariah. But you need look no further than this very message board where anti-israeli posts dominate.

They are not the same and will not get an equal reaction from me until they are treated as equals by my country and others. My sympathy stems from these inequalities.

Wow. Until your government treats them equally, you'll commit the same crimes they do for the opposite side??? That's sad.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

You're entirely right. It is not the goal of all the Palestinians to do this. It is the goal of Hezbollah and Hamas, among others, to do this.

I don't believe most of the people in these groups want to take over Israel. I don't think that is their plan. I think they are trying to defend themselves from invasion and extermination.

farfromglorified wrote:

Certainly. Iran gives Hezbollah alone an estimated $100 million per year.



It doesn't? Do you think those 2,000 rockets they've fired grow on trees? Do you think the funds for payments made to Hezbollah guerillas are raised at bake sales?

I know they are aided with lots of money. But go ahead and pretend that's what I was saying. The scale of aid is not close to being equal.

farfromglorified wrote:

It is simply video files put on the internet. And they're watched by millions upon millions of people everyday.

With perspectives to fit many differing viewpoints.

farfromglorified wrote:

Are you naive enough to think they wouldn't if they could?

People as a whole haven't given me much reason to think they wouldn't run down their neighbors and take what they can if they thought they could get away with it. I hope this isn't the case and think from a hopeful viewpoint of future harmony. But what they would do if they could is irrelevent.

farfromglorified wrote:

This is not Halloween. They are trying to kill the Israelis.

Killing people scares the shit out of people....no halloween masks needed. This doesn't mean they are trying to invade.

farfromglorified wrote:

Ok. What occupation are you referring to? The one that ended 6 years ago?

How about the current invasion of Lebanon, current occupation of Palestinian land. Have any Arab groups did the same?

farfromglorified wrote:

Because our government's viewpoint is as flawed as your own. And for precisely the same reasons in fact.

Well, I have no power to make the situation so much worse than it already is by supporting and giving means to kill to one group. I stand up for the other group and say that they are just as deserving as their foe.

farfromglorified wrote:

Yes. See:

Here's a news report from Israel from a few days ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acBx_DMFji0&search=Haifa%20rocket

Retaliation. Desperation. Would this have happened if not for the bombong campaign conducted by Israel?

farfromglorified wrote:

Some of them, yes. Roughly 20% of Israeli families live under the poverty line.

That's better than here in the US. Where are the stats for Palestinians?

farfromglorified wrote:

Of course. Throughout much of Europe, and much of the Islamic world they are classified right next to satan himself, much in the same fashion that people here put many Palestinians in the same category. In the halls of the UN they are the primary world pariah. But you need look no further than this very message board where anti-israeli posts dominate.

OK, so where is the push to get this shit stopped?

farfromglorified wrote:

Wow. Until your government treats them equally, you'll commit the same crimes they do for the opposite side??? That's sad.

If it's a crime to say that both are deserving of support and are equals then so be it. No, we have to call one side horrible satanic demons. If we worked harder trying to promote peace and finding a solution to this conflict instead of sending more bombs then maybe I wouldn't be so fucking pissed.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I don't believe most of the people in these groups want to take over Israel. I don't think that is their plan. I think they are trying to defend themselves from invasion and extermination.

Really? Then how do you explain their statements proclaiming the opposite? How do you explain their charters proclaiming their desire to destroy Israel? How do you explain their continued aggression from Lebanon after the occupation is over?

How do you explain this story:

"In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged “improvised explosive devices” (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then “requested” that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the “Zionist” border, it was up to the “Zionists” to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unarmored windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which Israeli sources stated required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer’s driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Ideology

I know they are aided with lots of money. But go ahead and pretend that's what I was saying. The scale of aid is not close to being equal.

The scale of aid is not close to being equal. That's entirely correct. But I fail to see how that matters when that money is being used to slaughter innocent lives. I think we can both agree that Israel should not get another dime of American aid until this conflict is over. But I'm certainly not going to be sympathetic to one gang of thugs because they get less funding than another gang of thugs.

With perspectives to fit many differing viewpoints.

Yes. Some definitely more reality-based than others.

People as a whole haven't given me much reason to think they wouldn't run down their neighbors and take what they can if they thought they could get away with it. I hope this isn't the case and think from a hopeful viewpoint of future harmony. But what they would do if they could is irrelevent.

It's irrelevant??? My god. I would hope that if someone here threatened to kill you and destroy your home and pointed thousands of rockets at you, you wouldn't just say, "eh, it's irrelevant".

Killing people scares the shit out of people....no halloween masks needed. This doesn't mean they are trying to invade.

It's doesn't mean they're trying to invade. Their invasions tell you that:

"Hezbollah abducted three Israel Defense Forces soldiers during an October 2000 attack in Shebaa Farms [UN mandated Israeli territory], and sought to obtain the release of 14 Lebanese prisoners, some of whom had been held since 1978. On January 25, 2004, Hezbollah successfully negotiated an exchange of prisoners with Israel, through German mediators. The prisoner swap was carried out on January 29: 30 Lebanese and Arab prisoners, the remains of 60 Lebanese militants and civilians, 420 Palestinian prisoners, and maps showing Israeli mines in South Lebanon were exchanged for an Israeli businessman and army reserve colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum kidnapped in 2001 and the remains of the three Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers mentioned above, who were killed either during the Hezbollah operation, or in its immediate aftermath. For the entire period between the abduction (October 2000) and the end of the negotiations (January 2004), Hezbollah did not provide information about the death of the 3 kidnapped soldiers (Adi Avitan, Beni Avraham and Umar Suad) even though Israel intelligence has suspected them to be already dead"

How about the current invasion of Lebanon, current occupation of Palestinian land. Have any Arab groups did the same?

Both sides have invaded the other's territory over the last 6 years. The "occupation" of Lebanon ended in 2000.

Well, I have no power to make the situation so much worse than it already is by supporting and giving means to kill to one group. I stand up for the other group and say that they are just as deserving as their foe.

No one, absolutely no one, deserves any of this.

Retaliation. Desperation. Would this have happened if not for the bombong campaign conducted by Israel?

Would any of your links and pictures have happened if not for the suicide bombings, kidnappings and invasions of the other side??? Do any of those things justify the death?

That's better than here in the US. Where are the stats for Palestinians?

What??? The US poverty rate is 12%. The poverty rate for Palestinians is estimated at anywhere between 30%-60%, depending on who you listen to. The top-end of that range is probably the most accurate. But I fail to see how a person's financial status should determine whether or not their murder is justified.

OK, so where is the push to get this shit stopped?

Within any person who believes that no death is justified, and that all murders are evil regardless of reason.

If it's a crime to say that both are deserving of support and are equals then so be it.

That's not a crime! That's all I want to hear from you. Instead I get that one side is more deserving of support, that one side if more justified in their actions.

No, we have to call one side horrible satanic demons. If we worked harder trying to promote peace and finding a solution to this conflict instead of sending more bombs then maybe I wouldn't be so fucking pissed.

You can never promote peace by validating the reasons they drop bombs.

hailhailkc

farfromglorified wrote:

No one may be able to exactly tell you the kill ratio, but to suggest that there is even a remote possibility, considering the events of the past weeks, that the dead on the south equal or outnumber the north is absolutely foolish. You're saying the above simply to cast an unreasable doubt on the concept that more are dead in the north...and that's a copout.

Well, then there must be enough unreasonable doubt to back up my remote possibility…because even you are willing to admit that no one can speak accurately about the kill ratio. Secondly, I NEVER denied that more MIGHT be dead due to the military capabilities of the Israelis…but on the flip side of that coin…like I've also already said…I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I have a good understanding of the kill ratio either, because I don't. I highly doubt that anyone does. I think it's foolish to presume that we know what the kill ratio is on EITHER side of this battle so far. And furthermore, I think it's a tiresome and ignorant way to debate the issue, which I think you might actually agree with. It's like debating the topic of "who started this fight?". It's ridiculous. And no…I'm not saying the deaths themselves aren't worth mentioning, or that they're ridiculous…I'm saying that sitting here and acting like any of us actually know the numbers is an act of futility. War breeds agenda and propaganda from both sides. So, combine the propoganda with the inaccuracy of modern reporting… and then throw in the bias of the partisan driven posters on this board (myself included), and you can quickly start to tell that no one really has any idea what the kill ratio is, NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ OR WHERE YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.

In other words…I don't know, and I'm not going to act like I do.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

Really? Then how do you explain their statements proclaiming the opposite? How do you explain their charters proclaiming their desire to destroy Israel? How do you explain their continued aggression from Lebanon after the occupation is over?

How do you explain this story:

"In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged “improvised explosive devices” (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then “requested” that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the “Zionist” border, it was up to the “Zionists” to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unarmored windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which Israeli sources stated required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer’s driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Ideology



The scale of aid is not close to being equal. That's entirely correct. But I fail to see how that matters when that money is being used to slaughter innocent lives. I think we can both agree that Israel should not get another dime of American aid until this conflict is over. But I'm certainly not going to be sympathetic to one gang of thugs because they get less funding than another gang of thugs.



Yes. Some definitely more reality-based than others.



It's irrelevant??? My god. I would hope that if someone here threatened to kill you and destroy your home and pointed thousands of rockets at you, you wouldn't just say, "eh, it's irrelevant".



It's doesn't mean they're trying to invade. Their invasions tell you that:

"Hezbollah abducted three Israel Defense Forces soldiers during an October 2000 attack in Shebaa Farms [UN mandated Israeli territory], and sought to obtain the release of 14 Lebanese prisoners, some of whom had been held since 1978. On January 25, 2004, Hezbollah successfully negotiated an exchange of prisoners with Israel, through German mediators. The prisoner swap was carried out on January 29: 30 Lebanese and Arab prisoners, the remains of 60 Lebanese militants and civilians, 420 Palestinian prisoners, and maps showing Israeli mines in South Lebanon were exchanged for an Israeli businessman and army reserve colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum kidnapped in 2001 and the remains of the three Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers mentioned above, who were killed either during the Hezbollah operation, or in its immediate aftermath. For the entire period between the abduction (October 2000) and the end of the negotiations (January 2004), Hezbollah did not provide information about the death of the 3 kidnapped soldiers (Adi Avitan, Beni Avraham and Umar Suad) even though Israel intelligence has suspected them to be already dead"



Both sides have invaded the other's territory over the last 6 years. The "occupation" of Lebanon ended in 2000.



No one, absolutely no one, deserves any of this.



Would any of your links and pictures have happened if not for the suicide bombings, kidnappings and invasions of the other side??? Do any of those things justify the death?



What??? The US poverty rate is 12%. The poverty rate for Palestinians is estimated at anywhere between 30%-60%, depending on who you listen to. The top-end of that range is probably the most accurate. But I fail to see how a person's financial status should determine whether or not their murder is justified.



Within any person who believes that no death is justified, and that all murders are evil regardless of reason.



That's not a crime! That's all I want to hear from you. Instead I get that one side is more deserving of support, that one side if more justified in their actions.



You can never promote peace by validating the reasons they drop bombs.

The situation is not a balanced situation and I've grown tired of the constant avoidance of misery of the Palestinian people by acting like their suffering is equal. It simply is not. Their misery was created by the Israelis when they decided to round them up and get them out of the way. And they continue to suffer on a much greater scale. But since they both kill, to you that takes away from all thet oppression and justifies Israel as being just as right/wrong as them. There is a source to this problem. I really don't see where else this can go form here. We will fail to agree and just keep going back and forth. I do appreciate your sensible discussion practices, though. I feel as if we just see it differently, not that we are at each other's throats. That is refreshing to say the least.

yotan18

El_Kabong wrote:

god just confirmed it...i'm supposed to have the land you live on. i swear, man! i was out burning a bush and it was told to me by god herself that she created that piece of land you currently live on all for me...and now it's time fo rme to have it...i even wrote it in a book, so you know it's true!

plz have all your things out by the middle of next month, unless they're nice things, then you can leave them...regardless, be out by the 15th or i will have to force you to leave in self-defense.

nice. :(