well, it's official...

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

Just the opposite. I'm telling you that their psyche is the accurate instrument of measurement here.

Through whose eyes?

farfromglorified

angelica wrote:

Through whose eyes?

Through their eyes.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

No. Our actions hold no relevance to that. What discredits one who is driven by emotions is when their emotions contradict their reason.

But under such duress, clouded judgement is inevitably going to happen from time to time.

farfromglorified wrote:

Me neither. It's also not hard for me to understand that such actions typically lead to more desperation.

I agree

farfromglorified wrote:

Me too. They come from stupidity.

I don't judge them as harshly as you do.

farfromglorified wrote:

No. It negates my claim that I never fail.

People are people.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

Through their eyes.

It's completely normal that emotions and reason are at odds with one another, within a person, and for rational intelligent systems-reasons. Because you don't see the "reasons" does not mean the reasons do not exist.

You said: "What discredits one who is driven by emotions is when their emotions contradict their reason."

If you took the time to listen to and comprehend the emotions and reasoning of the other point of view, you would come to understand the situation and the "contradiction" would "cease to exist". The imagined contradiction does not discredit anyone. It reveals to us that the process is not complete and resolved. It shows problem solving is required. To recognise such is fair and balanced and quite different than implying another is wrong or flawed in their processes while dodging personal awareness and accountability.

Abookamongstthemany

angelica wrote:

It's completely normal that emotions and reason are at odds with one another, within a person, and for rational intelligent systems-reasons. Because you don't see the "reasons" does not mean the reasons do not exist.

You said: "What discredits one who is driven by emotions is when their emotions contradict their reason."

If you took the time to listen to and comprehend the emotions and reasoning of the other point of view, you would come to understand the situation and the "contradiction" would "cease to exist". The imagined contradiction does not discredit anyone. It reveals to us that the process is not complete and resolved. It shows problem solving is required. To recognise such is fair and balanced and quite different than implying another is wrong or flawed in their processes while dodging personal awareness and accountability.

Well said!

angelica

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Well said!

Thank-you.

farfromglorified

angelica wrote:

It's completely normal that emotions and reason are at odds with one another, within a person, and for rational intelligent systems-reasons. Because you don't see the "reasons" does not mean the reasons do not exist.

The reasons certainly do exist! I never claimed an emotion cannot exist counter to the reality that creates it. What I claimed is that a man who acts upon an emotion in the face of a contradictory reality will typically realize that contradiction in the amplification of his own misery.

You said: "What discredits one who is driven by emotions is when their emotions contradict their reason."

I did say that.

If you took the time to listen to and comprehend the emotions and reasoning of the other point of view, you would come to understand the situation and the "contradiction" would "cease to exist". The imagined contradiction does not discredit anyone. It reveals to us that the process is not complete and resolved. It shows problem solving is required. To recognise such is fair and balanced and quite different than implying another is wrong or flawed in their processes while dodging personal awareness and accountability.

Angelica, the man who tells you that he loves everyone and will kill to prove it is a man full of very real contradictions. The soldier who tells you he hates terrorists but resorts to their methods is a man full of very real contradictions. The militant who tells you he is acting in self-defense and will kill an unarmed infant to "save" himself is a man full of very real contradictions. The man who tells you he respects life while he destroys it is a fool.

So, no, I will not defend a behavior motivated by an emotion that attempts to contradict reality. While I can understand it, I will never excuse it.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

But under such duress, clouded judgement is inevitably going to happen from time to time.

Certainly! But that does not excuse it. Do you forgive the Israelis of such actions as you forgive Hezbollah?

I agree

Cool.

I don't judge them as harshly as you do.

You may judge them however you wish to.

People are people.

People are people. Some different then others, however.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

The reasons certainly do exist! I never claimed an emotion cannot exist counter to the reality that creates it. What I claimed is that a man who acts upon an emotion in the face of a contradictory reality will typically realize that contradiction in the amplification of his own misery.

Okay, I'm with you on that. As long as we are keeping it well in mind that each point of view is 100% valid and the measure of something not working, is seen by he/she for whom it is not working.

Example: When I was mentally ill people were filled with all kinds of claims that they knew what was best for me while they invalidated my own inner understanding of what was best for me. Those around me felt entitled to judge my misery. All they really informed me of was their own ignorance of what was best for me. They gave themselves permission to judge me and my illnesses and their judgments firmly pointed fingers back to them. Their judgments were wrong. The understandings and the true assessment of my misery could only be gauged from within, or by the objective experts who sought understanding and not agenda protection.

Angelica, the man who tells you that he loves everyone and will kill to prove it is a man full of very real contradictions. The soldier who tells you he hates terrorists but resorts to their methods is a man full of very real contradictions. The militant who tells you he is acting in self-defense and will kill an unarmed infant to "save" himself is a man full of very real contradictions. The man who tells you he respects life while he destroys it is a food.

So, no, I will not defend a behavior motivated by an emotion that attempts do contradict reality. While I can understand it, I will never excuse it.

I agree. I certainly don't excuse the inexcusable. I guess it comes down to whether our own actions are constructive--are they working for US?? Are we trying to blame our OWN misery on the other guy?

For example, to reason with an emotionally upset person does not work. We actually seek something that will not happen, and many times, when we set our own selves up for such failure, we are more likely to blame the other guy in our own ignorance. And the cycles repeat.

rightondude

angelica wrote:

If you took the time to listen to and comprehend the emotions and reasoning of the other point of view, you would come to understand the situation and the "contradiction" would "cease to exist". The imagined contradiction does not discredit anyone. It reveals to us that the process is not complete and resolved. It shows problem solving is required. To recognise such is fair and balanced and quite different than implying another is wrong or flawed in their processes while dodging personal awareness and accountability.

Hey cool! I feel like that little dancing leprechaun with the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow then

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

Certainly! But that does not excuse it. Do you forgive the Israelis of such actions as you forgive Hezbollah?

My problem with the situation doesn't lie in the fact both are doing wrong. My problem lies where the majority of people are seeing it only from one side and the media only making it worse. Then the aid our country sends one side while treating the other side as monsters.[/quote]

hailhailkc

El_Kabong wrote:

god just confirmed it...i'm supposed to have the land you live on. i swear, man! i was out burning a bush and it was told to me by god herself that she created that piece of land you currently live on all for me...and now it's time fo rme to have it...i even wrote it in a book, so you know it's true!

plz have all your things out by the middle of next month, unless they're nice things, then you can leave them...regardless, be out by the 15th or i will have to force you to leave in self-defense.

That's interesting, I thought I was the one who was taking YOUR land?! After all, you keep giving up pieces of your land to make us happy…and yet…we keep demanding that you give us MORE of that land while we blow up your cafes and nightclubs with suicide bombers! Dumb Zionist, you're all confused again. It's never been about your land…it's about driving you into the sea and wiping you off the map. So quit acting like you own the rights to an expansionist policy, because that's never been what you're about, that's what WE'RE about. That's our gig. Get your own. After all, who has it been that's attacked you from every angle multiple times throughout the history of mankind?!!? That's right…it's been us trying to WIPE YOU OFF any land. Well…that…and destroying an entire race of people simply based upon their religous and political standing. You Zionists…from "Israel"…actually give up land that you believe is yours just to appease us. You're actually conceding land in order to stop the violence, and you're willing to sacrifice something that you believe is yours, and give it to us, to stop all this bloodshed…BUT GUESS WHAT?!!?…WE DON'T CARE!!! Cuz we're gonna take all that you have anyway!!!

Suckers.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

My problem with the situation doesn't lie in the fact both are doing wrong. My problem lies where the majority of people are seeing it only from one side and the media only making it worse. Then the aid our country sends one side while treating the other side as monsters.

Please. If your problem with a war is how people view it or report it, something is very wrong. Regardless, you're preaching to the choir on this message board and you know it. If any view gets overreported here it's the Hezbollah apologist view (though certainly the Israeli apologist view is also here).

If your fight is one in which both sides should be treated with contempt for their evils, I'll support you in that fight. If your fight is one in which one side is treated with contempt and another is defended based on contradictory moral principles, I will not participate in that lie.

hailhailkc

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

My problem with the situation doesn't lie in the fact both are doing wrong. My problem lies where the majority of people are seeing it only from one side and the media only making it worse. Then the aid our country sends one side while treating the other side as monsters.

You've always stated that your problem with the situation lies in the fact that both sides are doing wrong…and more to the point…that one side IN PARTICULAR is doing MORE wrong than the other.

rightondude

The only people living lies are the ones saying that one society is right or wrong over the other. Hahah, I'm sorry but it is laughable to witness. Can some people here just not see it?

farfromglorified

angelica wrote:

Okay, I'm with you on that. As long as we are keeping it well in mind that each point of view is 100% valid and the measure of something not working, is seen by he/she for whom it is not working.

Ok. But once human beings start being slaughtered based on that "something not working", it gets a little more complicated than the above.

Example: When I was mentally ill people were filled with all kinds of claims that they knew what was best for me while they invalidated my own inner understanding of what was best for me. Those around me felt entitled to judge my misery. All they really informed me of was their own ignorance of what was best for me. They gave themselves permission to judge me and my illnesses and their judgments firmly pointed fingers back to them. Their judgments were wrong. The understandings and the true assessment of my misery could only be gauged from within, or by the objective experts who sought understanding and not agenda protection.

Ok.

I agree. I certainly don't excuse the inexcusable. I guess it comes down to whether our own actions are constructive--are they working for US?? Are we trying to blame our OWN misery on the other guy?

Exactly.

For example, to reason with an emotionally upset person does not work. We actually seek something that will not happen, and many times, when we set our own selves up for such failure, we are more likely to blame the other guy in our own ignorance. And the cycles repeat.

Yep.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

Please. If your problem with a war is how people view it or report it, something is very wrong. Regardless, you're preaching to the choir on this message board and you know it. If any view gets overreported here it's the Hezbollah apologist view (though certainly the Israeli apologist view is also here).

If your fight is one in which both sides should be treated with contempt for their evils, I'll support you in that fight. If your fight is one in which one side is treated with contempt and another is defended based on contradictory moral principles, I will not participate in that lie.

I think you know that's not my problem with war. I want it to stop. And I'm not talking about this message board when I'm complaining about coverage and reporting. I'm talking about our society in general and our national news. Well duh, both sides are doing horrible acts that should definitely stop. I'm here expressing my frustration with one side being glorified and aided and the other being demonized by our govt not by the people on here (although, they can be frustrating as well.) I suppose you don't see that as a problem. If it were only the few people on this board who thought this way then I wouldn't be so alarmed. But it is the people who are in great power and influence that think this way, they control what gets reported to everyone watching the nightly news....and yeah, I have a problem with it.

farfromglorified

rightondude wrote:

The only people living lies are the ones saying that one society is right or wrong over the other. Hahah, I'm sorry but it is laughable to witness. Can some people here just not see it?

A society is right or wrong based on the principles they hold and whether or not their actions are consistent with those principles. If Israel and Palestine hold misery and hate as their highest principles, they are very much right to do what they are doing. Otherwise, they are horribly wrong.

Abookamongstthemany

hailhailkc wrote:

You've always stated that your problem with the situation lies in the fact that both sides are doing wrong…and more to the point…that one side IN PARTICULAR is doing MORE wrong than the other.

5:1 as a matter of fact. Do you deny that?

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I think you know that's not my problem with war.

Do I?

"My problem with the situation doesn't lie in the fact both are doing wrong. My problem lies where the majority of people are seeing it only from one side and the media only making it worse. Then the aid our country sends one side while treating the other side as monsters."

I want it to stop.

Me too.

And I'm not talking about this message board when I'm complaining about coverage and reporting. I'm talking about our society in general and our national news. Well duh, both sides are doing horrible acts that should definitely stop. I'm here expressing my frustration with one side being glorified and aided and the other being demonized by our govt not by the people on here (although, they can be frustrating as well.) I suppose you don't see that as a problem.

I do see that as a problem.

If it were only the few people on this board who thought this way then I wouldn't be so alarmed. But it is the people who are in great power and influence that think this way, they control what gets reported to everyone watching the nightly news....and yeah, I have a problem with it.

But do you not see how your views are no different than theirs?