I don't deny it…but I'm not going to sit here and act like I can confirm it either. Honestly, I have no idea what the kill ratio is between Israel and their enemies. And for anyone to report that they DO know what the kill ratio is, I have to admit, I find it quite amazing. What makes you think your information is iron clad correct?
MOSSAD NATO Alphabet Stations (E10)
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
I don't deny it…but I'm not going to sit here and act like I can confirm it either. Honestly, I have no idea what the kill ratio is between Israel and their enemies. And for anyone to report that they DO know what the kill ratio is, I have to admit, I find it quite amazing. What makes you think your information is iron clad correct?
I've read it in numerous sources. What do you think will happen when a billion dollar military goes up against...no military, some rockets, and some suicide bombers?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't deny it…but I'm not going to sit here and act like I can confirm it either. Honestly, I have no idea what the kill ratio is between Israel and their enemies. And for anyone to report that they DO know what the kill ratio is, I have to admit, I find it quite amazing. What makes you think your information is iron clad correct?
By suggesting that one side is justified in killing while another is not, of course. Your posts on this issue are framed against Israel. That is fine. There is much to rail about on that side. But you've also made posts in which the core point is that the killing on the other side is "understandable".
By suggesting that one side is justified in killing while another is not, of course. Your posts on this issue are framed against Israel. That is fine. There is much to rail about on that side. But you've also made posts in which the core point is that the killing on the other side is "understandable".
No, I said I understand their clouded judgement due to duress, anger and desperation. I hate that they kill, especially the innocent...I wish they would stop. If they did, I wonder if the world would assist them and defend them if they continued to be mowed down...I'm afraid they would only be killed out in time. That doesn't mean I justify their killing but I can see where it stems from and that needs to be addressed.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Ok. Again, does this justify their calls to mow others down??? Does this justify their calls to erase Israel? Or America?
Do you fear this about the Israelis?
Ok. But if you can understand "where it stems from", why do you not say that about Israel?
I think Israel was wrong to take this land from the these people and continue to bully them and deem their lives worthless. I think Israelis have a right to exist, of course. You can't very well turn back now. But they should not invade anymore land and claim it . I don't think the Arabs would be so hostile against them if they would stop taking more and more land and killing people while they do it. I think it is wrong to push people out of their homes because your religion says it's ok. There would be no Israel if not at the cost of spilled blood from the Palestinians. They know this and they push on with more occupation. So no, I don't have as much symapthy for the Israelis. Thats' how I see it but that doesn't mean I justify their death.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think Israel was wrong to take this land from the these people and continue to bully them and deem their lives worthless.
Ok. Do you think Hezbollah is wrong for proclaiming the desire to do the same and acting upon it?
I think Israelis have a right to exist, of course. You can't very well turn back now.
Wow. You say it as if it's terrible.
But they should not invade anymore land and claim it .
And what of Hezbollah?
I don't think the Arabs would be so hostile against them if they would stop taking more and more land and killing people while they do it.
Really? Israel gave up control of Lebanon 6 years ago. Yet here we are.
I think it is wrong to push people out of their homes because your religion says it's ok.
Me too. That's why I despise Hezbollah too.
There would be no Israel if not at the cost of spilled blood from the Palestinians.
What? Are you joking? Jews have lived in that region for centuries. They began to mass there 70 years ago to avoid spilled blood. The nation itself was established by the UN. Certainly Israel and the people that founded it engaged in some questionable behavior then and ever since, but to suggest that the nation was founded on "spilled blood" is to ignore history.
They know this and they push on with more occupation.
As does Hezbollah.
So no, I don't have as much symapthy for the Israelis.
But you do have sympathy, for the exact same reasons, for Hezbollah. Nowhere here do you mention their desire to destroy Israel. Nowhere here do you mention that there never was an independent Palestine. Nowhere here do you mention the "spilled blood" of innocent Israelis. Nowhere here do you mention the invasions of Hezbollah, Hamas and others.
Thats' how I see it but that doesn't mean I justify their death.
Oh, but you do. Reread this very post. It is framed entirely as a justification for what Hezbollah is doing. Everything in it suggest that Israel may not fight, but Hezbollah may.
No, it's not a cop out. No one has any true idea what the kill ratio really is.
No one may be able to exactly tell you the kill ratio, but to suggest that there is even a remote possibility, considering the events of the past weeks, that the dead on the south equal or outnumber the north is absolutely foolish. You're saying the above simply to cast an unreasable doubt on the concept that more are dead in the north...and that's a copout.
What? Are you joking? Jews have lived in that region for centuries. They began to mass there 70 years ago to avoid spilled blood. The nation itself was established by the UN. Certainly Israel and the people that founded it engaged in some questionable behavior then and ever since, but to suggest that the nation was founded on "spilled blood" is to ignore history.
They picked a very bad spot for one. If they wanted to avoid spilled blood they shouldn't have opted for a place that required them to do it and would be met with such fierce resistance.
But you do have sympathy, for the exact same reasons, for Hezbollah. Nowhere here do you mention their desire to destroy Israel. Nowhere here do you mention that there never was an independent Palestine. Nowhere here do you mention the "spilled blood" of innocent Israelis. Nowhere here do you mention the invasions of Hezbollah, Hamas and others.
I think they desire to be left alone and not killed. I don't see them as the aggressors in this. If you do, that fine but I disagree. Show me something about Hezbollah invading and stealing Israeli land.
Oh, but you do. Reread this very post. It is framed entirely as a justification for what Hezbollah is doing. Everything in it suggest that Israel may not fight, but Hezbollah may.
I never said I didn't understand the Arab position moreso than the Israeli. That's my opinion of it but it doesn't mean I want them to kill.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The have declared their intention to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic state.
A terrible idea.
It's a "terrible idea" to grant a population a state in their traditional homeland following the systematic destruction of millions of their people? That seems odd since it sounds like you're proposing exactly that for the Palestinians.
They don't invade Israel.
Of course they do. Suicide bombings, kinappings, full-on assualts across the border...Hezbollah has invaded Israel many times.
Yep, here we are with Israel still invading.
You don't understand. You claimed that if Israel would take steps to end the occupation, these these people wouldn't be so violent. Israel has ended their occupation of Lebanon, and yet Hezbollah has launched numerous attacks since:
Your claim is wrong. Hezbollah wants Israel destroyed. Ending any occupation does not change that.
They are not taking homes or land from Israelis.
They wish to. So far, they've failed in taking those homes or land. But they do destroy homes and lives in the process of trying.
They picked a very bad spot for one. If they wanted to avoid spilled blood they shouldn't have opted for a place that required them to do it and would be met with such fierce resistance.
What? Can't you say the same thing about the Palestinians? This is ridiculous. It's not as if no jew was in the British mandate of Palestine before WWII. It is their traditional homeland. Many emigrated to there during the violent events of WWII that attempted to exterminate their people. The British, who owned the land, allowed the UN to define the state of Israel where jews were living.
I think they desire to be left alone and not killed. I don't see them as the aggressors in this. If you do, that fine but I disagree. Show me something about Hezbollah invading and stealing Israeli land.
I know you don't see them as the aggressors in this. I see them as one of the aggressors in this.
Again, you're justifying their killing.
I never said I didn't understand the Arab position moreso than the Israeli. That's my opinion of it but it doesn't mean I want them to kill.
You can't have it both ways kid. You can't justify their killing and then tell them "I don't want you to kill". This organization counts on people like you in the same way Israel counts on its blind supporters. And the deaths on both sides will continue as long as you're apologizing for them.
The have declared their intention to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic state.
It's a "terrible idea" to grant a population a state in their traditional homeland following the systematic destruction of millions of their people? That seems odd since it sounds like you're proposing exactly that for the Palestinians.
Of course they do. Suicide bombings, kinappings, full-on assualts across the border...Hezbollah has invaded Israel many times.
You don't understand. You claimed that if Israel would take steps to end the occupation, these these people wouldn't be so violent. Israel has ended their occupation of Lebanon, and yet Hezbollah has launched numerous attacks since:
Your claim is wrong. Hezbollah wants Israel destroyed. Ending any occupation does not change that.
They wish to. So far, they've failed in taking those homes or land. But they do destroy homes and lives in the process of trying.
What? Can't you say the same thing about the Palestinians? This is ridiculous. It's not as if no jew was in the British mandate of Palestine before WWII. It is their traditional homeland. Many emigrated to there during the violent events of WWII that attempted to exterminate their people. The British, who owned the land, allowed the UN to define the state of Israel where jews were living.
I know you don't see them as the aggressors in this. I see them as one of the aggressors in this.
Again, you're justifying their killing.
You can't have it both ways kid. You can't justify their killing and then tell them "I don't want you to kill". This organization counts on people like you in the same way Israel counts on its blind supporters. And the deaths on both sides will continue as long as you're apologizing for them.
How hard can it be to understand?! I said in my first post in this thread that sharing would be a glorious idea. I don't want either to continue taking or killing. I want them to stop killing and learn to live next to each other. I'm more sympathic to the ones who are being pushed out and killed by a billion dollar military funded by my country. If it was the other way around I would feel the same sympathy for Israel. Israel is the one killing by the hundreds fuleing large scale hate and making matters worse. Of course the arabs fuel hate as well but they are not supported by US aid and media. They are the ones being bulldozed out of their homes. So there is where my sympathy lies...people here(the US) don't see both sides as doing wrong and the Arabs suffer because of this. There is no push for a solution, the only solution offered is to bomb them to pieces. Excuse me for feeling sorry for their situation.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
god just confirmed it...i'm supposed to have the land you live on. i swear, man! i was out burning a bush and it was told to me by god herself that she created that piece of land you currently live on all for me...and now it's time fo rme to have it...i even wrote it in a book, so you know it's true!
plz have all your things out by the middle of next month, unless they're nice things, then you can leave them...regardless, be out by the 15th or i will have to force you to leave in self-defense.
Can't I just live in the closet and pay you taxes on my property...??
Cheers,
NEWAGEHIPPIE
Keep your eyes open, eventually something will happen....
How hard can it be to understand?! I said in my first post in this thread that sharing would be a glorious idea.
That's not hard to understand at all.
I don't want either to continue taking or killing. I want them to stop killing and learn to live next to each other.
Excellent.
The statements above represent a perfect viewpoint. But here come the one-sided justifications..........
I'm more sympathic to the ones who are being pushed out and killed by a billion dollar military funded by my country.
How can you be sympathetic based on these standards when they are attempting to push someone else out and killing with a military funded by another country?
If it was the other way around I would feel the same sympathy for Israel. Israel is the one killing by the hundreds fuleing large scale hate and making matters worse. Of course the arabs fuel hate as well but they are not supported by US aid and media.
Ok. Both fuel hate. Agreed. You say that Israel is worse because they are supported by the US aid and media. Fair enough. But how is that different than Hezbollah that is supported by Syrian and Iranian aid and supported by their media? And the youtube "documentary" culture?
They are the ones being bulldozed out of their homes.
Is there a fundamental difference between a bulldozed Palestinian home and a rocketed Israeli home when the residents of those homes are nothing but innocent civilians???
So there is where my sympathy lies...people here(the US) don't see both sides as doing wrong and the Arabs suffer because of this. There is no push for a solution, the only solution offered is to bomb them to pieces. Excuse me for feeling sorry for their situation.
I do excuse you for feeling sorry for their situation. You have much reason to do so. I do not excuse you, however, for using that emotion to justify their actions. And I do not excuse you for not feeling sorry for the Israelis based on the exact same standards.
How can you be sympathetic based on these standards when they are attempting to push someone else out and killing with a military funded by another country?
I don't think the goal of the Palestinians is to push out or take over Israeli land or wish death to all Israeli people. I know there are some extremist but that doesn't discredit the Palestinian people as a whole.
Ok. Both fuel hate. Agreed. You say that Israel is worse because they are supported by the US aid and media. Fair enough. But how is that different than Hezbollah that is supported by Syrian and Iranian aid and supported by their media? And the youtube "documentary" culture?
Has Syria or Iran gave them billions in aid and support? If they have it sure doesn't show. You can find any perspective you wish on youtube...it's a silly argument, all you have to do is search for the topic you want to see and chances are it will be there....right, left, up or down. It is simply video files put on the internet.
Is there a fundamental difference between a bulldozed Palestinian home and a rocketed Israeli home when the residents of those homes are nothing but innocent civilians???
There is not a difference in the innocents that lost their lives, however, Arabs aren't coming in and taking over when they fire rockets. They are trying to scare the Israelis, they are not foolish enough to think their rockets or bombers will destroy all that much. It is wrong, but a scare tactic/angry retaliation and an invasion/occupation are two very different things. If they were the same, I would treat them accordingly.
I do excuse you for feeling sorry for their situation. You have much reason to do so. I do not excuse you, however, for using that emotion to justify their actions. And I do not excuse you for not feeling sorry for the Israelis based on the exact same standards.
I didn't justify their actions. Israel does not equal Hezbollah/Hamas.
Israel has support from the most powerful and wealthy nations on this planet. They live in prosperity because of this. If these people are so equal in wrongness then why is that? Are the Israeli's homes being knocked down? Are the Israeli children malnourished and living in poverty? Are the Israelis demonized by the world as monsters by the majority. They are not the same and will not get an equal reaction from me until they are treated as equals by my country and others. My sympathy stems from these inequalities.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't think the goal of the Palestinians is to push out or take over Israeli land or wish death to all Israeli people. I know there are some extremist but that doesn't discredit the Palestinian people as a whole.
You're entirely right. It is not the goal of all the Palestinians to do this. It is the goal of Hezbollah and Hamas, among others, to do this.
Has Syria or Iran gave them billions in aid and support?
Certainly. Iran gives Hezbollah alone an estimated $100 million per year.
If they have it sure doesn't show.
It doesn't? Do you think those 2,000 rockets they've fired grow on trees? Do you think the funds for payments made to Hezbollah guerillas are raised at bake sales?
You can find any perspective you wish on youtube...it's a silly argument, all you have to do is search for the topic you want to see and chances are it will be there....right, left, up or down. It is simply video files put on the internet.
It is simply video files put on the internet. And they're watched by millions upon millions of people everyday.
There is not a difference in the innocents that lost their lives, however, Arabs aren't coming in and taking over when they fire rockets.
Are you naive enough to think they wouldn't if they could?
They are trying to scare the Israelis
This is not Halloween. They are trying to kill the Israelis.
they are not foolish enough to think their rockets or bombers will destroy all that much. It is wrong, but a scare tactic/angry retaliation and an invasion/occupation are two very different things. If they were the same, I would treat them accordingly.
Ok. What occupation are you referring to? The one that ended 6 years ago?
I didn't justify their actions. Israel does not equal Hezbollah/Hamas.
Israel has support from the most powerful and wealthy nations on this planet. They live in prosperity because of this. If these people are so equal in wrongness then why is that?
Because our government's viewpoint is as flawed as your own. And for precisely the same reasons in fact.
Are the Israeli's homes being knocked down?
Yes. See:
Here's a news report from Israel from a few days ago:
Are the Israeli children malnourished and living in poverty?
Some of them, yes. Roughly 20% of Israeli families live under the poverty line.
Are the Israelis demonized by the world as monsters by the majority.
Of course. Throughout much of Europe, and much of the Islamic world they are classified right next to satan himself, much in the same fashion that people here put many Palestinians in the same category. In the halls of the UN they are the primary world pariah. But you need look no further than this very message board where anti-israeli posts dominate.
They are not the same and will not get an equal reaction from me until they are treated as equals by my country and others. My sympathy stems from these inequalities.
Wow. Until your government treats them equally, you'll commit the same crimes they do for the opposite side??? That's sad.
You're entirely right. It is not the goal of all the Palestinians to do this. It is the goal of Hezbollah and Hamas, among others, to do this.
I don't believe most of the people in these groups want to take over Israel. I don't think that is their plan. I think they are trying to defend themselves from invasion and extermination.
Certainly. Iran gives Hezbollah alone an estimated $100 million per year.
It doesn't? Do you think those 2,000 rockets they've fired grow on trees? Do you think the funds for payments made to Hezbollah guerillas are raised at bake sales?
I know they are aided with lots of money. But go ahead and pretend that's what I was saying. The scale of aid is not close to being equal.
Are you naive enough to think they wouldn't if they could?
People as a whole haven't given me much reason to think they wouldn't run down their neighbors and take what they can if they thought they could get away with it. I hope this isn't the case and think from a hopeful viewpoint of future harmony. But what they would do if they could is irrelevent.
Because our government's viewpoint is as flawed as your own. And for precisely the same reasons in fact.
Well, I have no power to make the situation so much worse than it already is by supporting and giving means to kill to one group. I stand up for the other group and say that they are just as deserving as their foe.
Of course. Throughout much of Europe, and much of the Islamic world they are classified right next to satan himself, much in the same fashion that people here put many Palestinians in the same category. In the halls of the UN they are the primary world pariah. But you need look no further than this very message board where anti-israeli posts dominate.
OK, so where is the push to get this shit stopped?
Wow. Until your government treats them equally, you'll commit the same crimes they do for the opposite side??? That's sad.
If it's a crime to say that both are deserving of support and are equals then so be it. No, we have to call one side horrible satanic demons. If we worked harder trying to promote peace and finding a solution to this conflict instead of sending more bombs then maybe I wouldn't be so fucking pissed.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't believe most of the people in these groups want to take over Israel. I don't think that is their plan. I think they are trying to defend themselves from invasion and extermination.
Really? Then how do you explain their statements proclaiming the opposite? How do you explain their charters proclaiming their desire to destroy Israel? How do you explain their continued aggression from Lebanon after the occupation is over?
How do you explain this story:
"In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged “improvised explosive devices” (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then “requested” that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the “Zionist” border, it was up to the “Zionists” to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unarmored windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which Israeli sources stated required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer’s driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya."
I know they are aided with lots of money. But go ahead and pretend that's what I was saying. The scale of aid is not close to being equal.
The scale of aid is not close to being equal. That's entirely correct. But I fail to see how that matters when that money is being used to slaughter innocent lives. I think we can both agree that Israel should not get another dime of American aid until this conflict is over. But I'm certainly not going to be sympathetic to one gang of thugs because they get less funding than another gang of thugs.
With perspectives to fit many differing viewpoints.
Yes. Some definitely more reality-based than others.
People as a whole haven't given me much reason to think they wouldn't run down their neighbors and take what they can if they thought they could get away with it. I hope this isn't the case and think from a hopeful viewpoint of future harmony. But what they would do if they could is irrelevent.
It's irrelevant??? My god. I would hope that if someone here threatened to kill you and destroy your home and pointed thousands of rockets at you, you wouldn't just say, "eh, it's irrelevant".
Killing people scares the shit out of people....no halloween masks needed. This doesn't mean they are trying to invade.
It's doesn't mean they're trying to invade. Their invasions tell you that:
"Hezbollah abducted three Israel Defense Forces soldiers during an October 2000 attack in Shebaa Farms [UN mandated Israeli territory], and sought to obtain the release of 14 Lebanese prisoners, some of whom had been held since 1978. On January 25, 2004, Hezbollah successfully negotiated an exchange of prisoners with Israel, through German mediators. The prisoner swap was carried out on January 29: 30 Lebanese and Arab prisoners, the remains of 60 Lebanese militants and civilians, 420 Palestinian prisoners, and maps showing Israeli mines in South Lebanon were exchanged for an Israeli businessman and army reserve colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum kidnapped in 2001 and the remains of the three Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers mentioned above, who were killed either during the Hezbollah operation, or in its immediate aftermath. For the entire period between the abduction (October 2000) and the end of the negotiations (January 2004), Hezbollah did not provide information about the death of the 3 kidnapped soldiers (Adi Avitan, Beni Avraham and Umar Suad) even though Israel intelligence has suspected them to be already dead"
How about the current invasion of Lebanon, current occupation of Palestinian land. Have any Arab groups did the same?
Both sides have invaded the other's territory over the last 6 years. The "occupation" of Lebanon ended in 2000.
Well, I have no power to make the situation so much worse than it already is by supporting and giving means to kill to one group. I stand up for the other group and say that they are just as deserving as their foe.
No one, absolutely no one, deserves any of this.
Retaliation. Desperation. Would this have happened if not for the bombong campaign conducted by Israel?
Would any of your links and pictures have happened if not for the suicide bombings, kidnappings and invasions of the other side??? Do any of those things justify the death?
That's better than here in the US. Where are the stats for Palestinians?
What??? The US poverty rate is 12%. The poverty rate for Palestinians is estimated at anywhere between 30%-60%, depending on who you listen to. The top-end of that range is probably the most accurate. But I fail to see how a person's financial status should determine whether or not their murder is justified.
OK, so where is the push to get this shit stopped?
Within any person who believes that no death is justified, and that all murders are evil regardless of reason.
If it's a crime to say that both are deserving of support and are equals then so be it.
That's not a crime! That's all I want to hear from you. Instead I get that one side is more deserving of support, that one side if more justified in their actions.
No, we have to call one side horrible satanic demons. If we worked harder trying to promote peace and finding a solution to this conflict instead of sending more bombs then maybe I wouldn't be so fucking pissed.
You can never promote peace by validating the reasons they drop bombs.
No one may be able to exactly tell you the kill ratio, but to suggest that there is even a remote possibility, considering the events of the past weeks, that the dead on the south equal or outnumber the north is absolutely foolish. You're saying the above simply to cast an unreasable doubt on the concept that more are dead in the north...and that's a copout.
Well, then there must be enough unreasonable doubt to back up my remote possibility…because even you are willing to admit that no one can speak accurately about the kill ratio. Secondly, I NEVER denied that more MIGHT be dead due to the military capabilities of the Israelis…but on the flip side of that coin…like I've also already said…I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I have a good understanding of the kill ratio either, because I don't. I highly doubt that anyone does. I think it's foolish to presume that we know what the kill ratio is on EITHER side of this battle so far. And furthermore, I think it's a tiresome and ignorant way to debate the issue, which I think you might actually agree with. It's like debating the topic of "who started this fight?". It's ridiculous. And no…I'm not saying the deaths themselves aren't worth mentioning, or that they're ridiculous…I'm saying that sitting here and acting like any of us actually know the numbers is an act of futility. War breeds agenda and propaganda from both sides. So, combine the propoganda with the inaccuracy of modern reporting… and then throw in the bias of the partisan driven posters on this board (myself included), and you can quickly start to tell that no one really has any idea what the kill ratio is, NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ OR WHERE YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.
In other words…I don't know, and I'm not going to act like I do.
MOSSAD NATO Alphabet Stations (E10)
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
Really? Then how do you explain their statements proclaiming the opposite? How do you explain their charters proclaiming their desire to destroy Israel? How do you explain their continued aggression from Lebanon after the occupation is over?
How do you explain this story:
"In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged “improvised explosive devices” (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then “requested” that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the “Zionist” border, it was up to the “Zionists” to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unarmored windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which Israeli sources stated required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer’s driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya."
The scale of aid is not close to being equal. That's entirely correct. But I fail to see how that matters when that money is being used to slaughter innocent lives. I think we can both agree that Israel should not get another dime of American aid until this conflict is over. But I'm certainly not going to be sympathetic to one gang of thugs because they get less funding than another gang of thugs.
Yes. Some definitely more reality-based than others.
It's irrelevant??? My god. I would hope that if someone here threatened to kill you and destroy your home and pointed thousands of rockets at you, you wouldn't just say, "eh, it's irrelevant".
It's doesn't mean they're trying to invade. Their invasions tell you that:
"Hezbollah abducted three Israel Defense Forces soldiers during an October 2000 attack in Shebaa Farms [UN mandated Israeli territory], and sought to obtain the release of 14 Lebanese prisoners, some of whom had been held since 1978. On January 25, 2004, Hezbollah successfully negotiated an exchange of prisoners with Israel, through German mediators. The prisoner swap was carried out on January 29: 30 Lebanese and Arab prisoners, the remains of 60 Lebanese militants and civilians, 420 Palestinian prisoners, and maps showing Israeli mines in South Lebanon were exchanged for an Israeli businessman and army reserve colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum kidnapped in 2001 and the remains of the three Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers mentioned above, who were killed either during the Hezbollah operation, or in its immediate aftermath. For the entire period between the abduction (October 2000) and the end of the negotiations (January 2004), Hezbollah did not provide information about the death of the 3 kidnapped soldiers (Adi Avitan, Beni Avraham and Umar Suad) even though Israel intelligence has suspected them to be already dead"
Both sides have invaded the other's territory over the last 6 years. The "occupation" of Lebanon ended in 2000.
No one, absolutely no one, deserves any of this.
Would any of your links and pictures have happened if not for the suicide bombings, kidnappings and invasions of the other side??? Do any of those things justify the death?
What??? The US poverty rate is 12%. The poverty rate for Palestinians is estimated at anywhere between 30%-60%, depending on who you listen to. The top-end of that range is probably the most accurate. But I fail to see how a person's financial status should determine whether or not their murder is justified.
Within any person who believes that no death is justified, and that all murders are evil regardless of reason.
That's not a crime! That's all I want to hear from you. Instead I get that one side is more deserving of support, that one side if more justified in their actions.
You can never promote peace by validating the reasons they drop bombs.
The situation is not a balanced situation and I've grown tired of the constant avoidance of misery of the Palestinian people by acting like their suffering is equal. It simply is not. Their misery was created by the Israelis when they decided to round them up and get them out of the way. And they continue to suffer on a much greater scale. But since they both kill, to you that takes away from all thet oppression and justifies Israel as being just as right/wrong as them. There is a source to this problem. I really don't see where else this can go form here. We will fail to agree and just keep going back and forth. I do appreciate your sensible discussion practices, though. I feel as if we just see it differently, not that we are at each other's throats. That is refreshing to say the least.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
god just confirmed it...i'm supposed to have the land you live on. i swear, man! i was out burning a bush and it was told to me by god herself that she created that piece of land you currently live on all for me...and now it's time fo rme to have it...i even wrote it in a book, so you know it's true!
plz have all your things out by the middle of next month, unless they're nice things, then you can leave them...regardless, be out by the 15th or i will have to force you to leave in self-defense.
nice. :(
"The Day of Redemption is at hand! Repent, and thou shall be saved..." - A. Ventura
"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie" - T. Montana
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"Yeah i know... sounds stupid." Aldrin said.
Comments
They are justifying the killing.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Or is that sitters'? Or potters'? Oops, no they're the ones in that field.
Or, um....founders keepers. Losers weepers
How 'bout I just do like Bette Davis in "Hush Hush Sweet Charlotte" and stand on the porch with a shotgun and yell, "Gee-yet awff ma PROP-er-tee!!"?
Or, how 'bout I just shut up?
I don't deny it…but I'm not going to sit here and act like I can confirm it either. Honestly, I have no idea what the kill ratio is between Israel and their enemies. And for anyone to report that they DO know what the kill ratio is, I have to admit, I find it quite amazing. What makes you think your information is iron clad correct?
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I've read it in numerous sources. What do you think will happen when a billion dollar military goes up against...no military, some rockets, and some suicide bombers?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yes. They are. So are you my dear.
how so?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Dude, please. This is a cop-out and you know it.
By suggesting that one side is justified in killing while another is not, of course. Your posts on this issue are framed against Israel. That is fine. There is much to rail about on that side. But you've also made posts in which the core point is that the killing on the other side is "understandable".
No, I said I understand their clouded judgement due to duress, anger and desperation. I hate that they kill, especially the innocent...I wish they would stop. If they did, I wonder if the world would assist them and defend them if they continued to be mowed down...I'm afraid they would only be killed out in time. That doesn't mean I justify their killing but I can see where it stems from and that needs to be addressed.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Ok. Do you understand Israel's then?
Good.
Ok. Again, does this justify their calls to mow others down??? Does this justify their calls to erase Israel? Or America?
Do you fear this about the Israelis?
Ok. But if you can understand "where it stems from", why do you not say that about Israel?
I think Israel was wrong to take this land from the these people and continue to bully them and deem their lives worthless. I think Israelis have a right to exist, of course. You can't very well turn back now. But they should not invade anymore land and claim it . I don't think the Arabs would be so hostile against them if they would stop taking more and more land and killing people while they do it. I think it is wrong to push people out of their homes because your religion says it's ok. There would be no Israel if not at the cost of spilled blood from the Palestinians. They know this and they push on with more occupation. So no, I don't have as much symapthy for the Israelis. Thats' how I see it but that doesn't mean I justify their death.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Ok. Do you think Hezbollah is wrong for proclaiming the desire to do the same and acting upon it?
Wow. You say it as if it's terrible.
And what of Hezbollah?
Really? Israel gave up control of Lebanon 6 years ago. Yet here we are.
Me too. That's why I despise Hezbollah too.
What? Are you joking? Jews have lived in that region for centuries. They began to mass there 70 years ago to avoid spilled blood. The nation itself was established by the UN. Certainly Israel and the people that founded it engaged in some questionable behavior then and ever since, but to suggest that the nation was founded on "spilled blood" is to ignore history.
As does Hezbollah.
But you do have sympathy, for the exact same reasons, for Hezbollah. Nowhere here do you mention their desire to destroy Israel. Nowhere here do you mention that there never was an independent Palestine. Nowhere here do you mention the "spilled blood" of innocent Israelis. Nowhere here do you mention the invasions of Hezbollah, Hamas and others.
Oh, but you do. Reread this very post. It is framed entirely as a justification for what Hezbollah is doing. Everything in it suggest that Israel may not fight, but Hezbollah may.
No, it's not a cop out. No one has any true idea what the kill ratio really is.
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No one may be able to exactly tell you the kill ratio, but to suggest that there is even a remote possibility, considering the events of the past weeks, that the dead on the south equal or outnumber the north is absolutely foolish. You're saying the above simply to cast an unreasable doubt on the concept that more are dead in the north...and that's a copout.
When did hezbollah take any land from the Israelis?
A terrible idea.
They don't invade Israel.
Yep, here we are with Israel still invading.
They are not taking homes or land from Israelis.
They picked a very bad spot for one. If they wanted to avoid spilled blood they shouldn't have opted for a place that required them to do it and would be met with such fierce resistance.
I think they desire to be left alone and not killed. I don't see them as the aggressors in this. If you do, that fine but I disagree. Show me something about Hezbollah invading and stealing Israeli land.
I never said I didn't understand the Arab position moreso than the Israeli. That's my opinion of it but it doesn't mean I want them to kill.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Never, to my knowledge - they've never been successful. But that doesn't stop them from trying. Hezbollah seeks the end of Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Ideology
The have declared their intention to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic state.
It's a "terrible idea" to grant a population a state in their traditional homeland following the systematic destruction of millions of their people? That seems odd since it sounds like you're proposing exactly that for the Palestinians.
Of course they do. Suicide bombings, kinappings, full-on assualts across the border...Hezbollah has invaded Israel many times.
You don't understand. You claimed that if Israel would take steps to end the occupation, these these people wouldn't be so violent. Israel has ended their occupation of Lebanon, and yet Hezbollah has launched numerous attacks since:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Hezbollah_following_the_.22Cedar_Revolution.22
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict
Your claim is wrong. Hezbollah wants Israel destroyed. Ending any occupation does not change that.
They wish to. So far, they've failed in taking those homes or land. But they do destroy homes and lives in the process of trying.
What? Can't you say the same thing about the Palestinians? This is ridiculous. It's not as if no jew was in the British mandate of Palestine before WWII. It is their traditional homeland. Many emigrated to there during the violent events of WWII that attempted to exterminate their people. The British, who owned the land, allowed the UN to define the state of Israel where jews were living.
I know you don't see them as the aggressors in this. I see them as one of the aggressors in this.
Again, you're justifying their killing.
You can't have it both ways kid. You can't justify their killing and then tell them "I don't want you to kill". This organization counts on people like you in the same way Israel counts on its blind supporters. And the deaths on both sides will continue as long as you're apologizing for them.
How hard can it be to understand?! I said in my first post in this thread that sharing would be a glorious idea. I don't want either to continue taking or killing. I want them to stop killing and learn to live next to each other. I'm more sympathic to the ones who are being pushed out and killed by a billion dollar military funded by my country. If it was the other way around I would feel the same sympathy for Israel. Israel is the one killing by the hundreds fuleing large scale hate and making matters worse. Of course the arabs fuel hate as well but they are not supported by US aid and media. They are the ones being bulldozed out of their homes. So there is where my sympathy lies...people here(the US) don't see both sides as doing wrong and the Arabs suffer because of this. There is no push for a solution, the only solution offered is to bomb them to pieces. Excuse me for feeling sorry for their situation.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Can't I just live in the closet and pay you taxes on my property...??
NEWAGEHIPPIE
Keep your eyes open, eventually something will happen....
That's not hard to understand at all.
Excellent.
The statements above represent a perfect viewpoint. But here come the one-sided justifications..........
How can you be sympathetic based on these standards when they are attempting to push someone else out and killing with a military funded by another country?
Ok. Both fuel hate. Agreed. You say that Israel is worse because they are supported by the US aid and media. Fair enough. But how is that different than Hezbollah that is supported by Syrian and Iranian aid and supported by their media? And the youtube "documentary" culture?
Is there a fundamental difference between a bulldozed Palestinian home and a rocketed Israeli home when the residents of those homes are nothing but innocent civilians???
I do excuse you for feeling sorry for their situation. You have much reason to do so. I do not excuse you, however, for using that emotion to justify their actions. And I do not excuse you for not feeling sorry for the Israelis based on the exact same standards.
I don't think the goal of the Palestinians is to push out or take over Israeli land or wish death to all Israeli people. I know there are some extremist but that doesn't discredit the Palestinian people as a whole.
Has Syria or Iran gave them billions in aid and support? If they have it sure doesn't show. You can find any perspective you wish on youtube...it's a silly argument, all you have to do is search for the topic you want to see and chances are it will be there....right, left, up or down. It is simply video files put on the internet.
There is not a difference in the innocents that lost their lives, however, Arabs aren't coming in and taking over when they fire rockets. They are trying to scare the Israelis, they are not foolish enough to think their rockets or bombers will destroy all that much. It is wrong, but a scare tactic/angry retaliation and an invasion/occupation are two very different things. If they were the same, I would treat them accordingly.
I didn't justify their actions. Israel does not equal Hezbollah/Hamas.
Israel has support from the most powerful and wealthy nations on this planet. They live in prosperity because of this. If these people are so equal in wrongness then why is that? Are the Israeli's homes being knocked down? Are the Israeli children malnourished and living in poverty? Are the Israelis demonized by the world as monsters by the majority. They are not the same and will not get an equal reaction from me until they are treated as equals by my country and others. My sympathy stems from these inequalities.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
You're entirely right. It is not the goal of all the Palestinians to do this. It is the goal of Hezbollah and Hamas, among others, to do this.
Certainly. Iran gives Hezbollah alone an estimated $100 million per year.
It doesn't? Do you think those 2,000 rockets they've fired grow on trees? Do you think the funds for payments made to Hezbollah guerillas are raised at bake sales?
It is simply video files put on the internet. And they're watched by millions upon millions of people everyday.
Are you naive enough to think they wouldn't if they could?
This is not Halloween. They are trying to kill the Israelis.
Ok. What occupation are you referring to? The one that ended 6 years ago?
Because our government's viewpoint is as flawed as your own. And for precisely the same reasons in fact.
Yes. See:
Here's a news report from Israel from a few days ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acBx_DMFji0&search=Haifa%20rocket
Some of them, yes. Roughly 20% of Israeli families live under the poverty line.
Of course. Throughout much of Europe, and much of the Islamic world they are classified right next to satan himself, much in the same fashion that people here put many Palestinians in the same category. In the halls of the UN they are the primary world pariah. But you need look no further than this very message board where anti-israeli posts dominate.
Wow. Until your government treats them equally, you'll commit the same crimes they do for the opposite side??? That's sad.
I don't believe most of the people in these groups want to take over Israel. I don't think that is their plan. I think they are trying to defend themselves from invasion and extermination.
I know they are aided with lots of money. But go ahead and pretend that's what I was saying. The scale of aid is not close to being equal.
With perspectives to fit many differing viewpoints.
People as a whole haven't given me much reason to think they wouldn't run down their neighbors and take what they can if they thought they could get away with it. I hope this isn't the case and think from a hopeful viewpoint of future harmony. But what they would do if they could is irrelevent.
Killing people scares the shit out of people....no halloween masks needed. This doesn't mean they are trying to invade.
How about the current invasion of Lebanon, current occupation of Palestinian land. Have any Arab groups did the same?
Well, I have no power to make the situation so much worse than it already is by supporting and giving means to kill to one group. I stand up for the other group and say that they are just as deserving as their foe.
Retaliation. Desperation. Would this have happened if not for the bombong campaign conducted by Israel?
That's better than here in the US. Where are the stats for Palestinians?
OK, so where is the push to get this shit stopped?
If it's a crime to say that both are deserving of support and are equals then so be it. No, we have to call one side horrible satanic demons. If we worked harder trying to promote peace and finding a solution to this conflict instead of sending more bombs then maybe I wouldn't be so fucking pissed.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Really? Then how do you explain their statements proclaiming the opposite? How do you explain their charters proclaiming their desire to destroy Israel? How do you explain their continued aggression from Lebanon after the occupation is over?
How do you explain this story:
"In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged “improvised explosive devices” (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then “requested” that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the “Zionist” border, it was up to the “Zionists” to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unarmored windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which Israeli sources stated required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer’s driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Ideology
The scale of aid is not close to being equal. That's entirely correct. But I fail to see how that matters when that money is being used to slaughter innocent lives. I think we can both agree that Israel should not get another dime of American aid until this conflict is over. But I'm certainly not going to be sympathetic to one gang of thugs because they get less funding than another gang of thugs.
Yes. Some definitely more reality-based than others.
It's irrelevant??? My god. I would hope that if someone here threatened to kill you and destroy your home and pointed thousands of rockets at you, you wouldn't just say, "eh, it's irrelevant".
It's doesn't mean they're trying to invade. Their invasions tell you that:
"Hezbollah abducted three Israel Defense Forces soldiers during an October 2000 attack in Shebaa Farms [UN mandated Israeli territory], and sought to obtain the release of 14 Lebanese prisoners, some of whom had been held since 1978. On January 25, 2004, Hezbollah successfully negotiated an exchange of prisoners with Israel, through German mediators. The prisoner swap was carried out on January 29: 30 Lebanese and Arab prisoners, the remains of 60 Lebanese militants and civilians, 420 Palestinian prisoners, and maps showing Israeli mines in South Lebanon were exchanged for an Israeli businessman and army reserve colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum kidnapped in 2001 and the remains of the three Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers mentioned above, who were killed either during the Hezbollah operation, or in its immediate aftermath. For the entire period between the abduction (October 2000) and the end of the negotiations (January 2004), Hezbollah did not provide information about the death of the 3 kidnapped soldiers (Adi Avitan, Beni Avraham and Umar Suad) even though Israel intelligence has suspected them to be already dead"
Both sides have invaded the other's territory over the last 6 years. The "occupation" of Lebanon ended in 2000.
No one, absolutely no one, deserves any of this.
Would any of your links and pictures have happened if not for the suicide bombings, kidnappings and invasions of the other side??? Do any of those things justify the death?
What??? The US poverty rate is 12%. The poverty rate for Palestinians is estimated at anywhere between 30%-60%, depending on who you listen to. The top-end of that range is probably the most accurate. But I fail to see how a person's financial status should determine whether or not their murder is justified.
Within any person who believes that no death is justified, and that all murders are evil regardless of reason.
That's not a crime! That's all I want to hear from you. Instead I get that one side is more deserving of support, that one side if more justified in their actions.
You can never promote peace by validating the reasons they drop bombs.
Well, then there must be enough unreasonable doubt to back up my remote possibility…because even you are willing to admit that no one can speak accurately about the kill ratio. Secondly, I NEVER denied that more MIGHT be dead due to the military capabilities of the Israelis…but on the flip side of that coin…like I've also already said…I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I have a good understanding of the kill ratio either, because I don't. I highly doubt that anyone does. I think it's foolish to presume that we know what the kill ratio is on EITHER side of this battle so far. And furthermore, I think it's a tiresome and ignorant way to debate the issue, which I think you might actually agree with. It's like debating the topic of "who started this fight?". It's ridiculous. And no…I'm not saying the deaths themselves aren't worth mentioning, or that they're ridiculous…I'm saying that sitting here and acting like any of us actually know the numbers is an act of futility. War breeds agenda and propaganda from both sides. So, combine the propoganda with the inaccuracy of modern reporting… and then throw in the bias of the partisan driven posters on this board (myself included), and you can quickly start to tell that no one really has any idea what the kill ratio is, NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ OR WHERE YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.
In other words…I don't know, and I'm not going to act like I do.
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The situation is not a balanced situation and I've grown tired of the constant avoidance of misery of the Palestinian people by acting like their suffering is equal. It simply is not. Their misery was created by the Israelis when they decided to round them up and get them out of the way. And they continue to suffer on a much greater scale. But since they both kill, to you that takes away from all thet oppression and justifies Israel as being just as right/wrong as them. There is a source to this problem. I really don't see where else this can go form here. We will fail to agree and just keep going back and forth. I do appreciate your sensible discussion practices, though. I feel as if we just see it differently, not that we are at each other's throats. That is refreshing to say the least.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie" - T. Montana
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"Yeah i know... sounds stupid." Aldrin said.
#18 INC forever