well, it's official...

124

Comments

  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    But do you not see how your views are no different than theirs?

    They are justifying the killing.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Bu2
    Bu2 Posts: 1,693
    I claim dwellers' rights!!

    Or is that sitters'? Or potters'? Oops, no they're the ones in that field.

    Or, um....founders keepers. Losers weepers

    How 'bout I just do like Bette Davis in "Hush Hush Sweet Charlotte" and stand on the porch with a shotgun and yell, "Gee-yet awff ma PROP-er-tee!!"?

    Or, how 'bout I just shut up?
    Feels Good Inc.
  • hailhailkc
    hailhailkc Posts: 582
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    5:1 as a matter of fact. Do you deny that?

    I don't deny it…but I'm not going to sit here and act like I can confirm it either. Honestly, I have no idea what the kill ratio is between Israel and their enemies. And for anyone to report that they DO know what the kill ratio is, I have to admit, I find it quite amazing. What makes you think your information is iron clad correct?
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  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    hailhailkc wrote:
    I don't deny it…but I'm not going to sit here and act like I can confirm it either. Honestly, I have no idea what the kill ratio is between Israel and their enemies. And for anyone to report that they DO know what the kill ratio is, I have to admit, I find it quite amazing. What makes you think your information is iron clad correct?

    I've read it in numerous sources. What do you think will happen when a billion dollar military goes up against...no military, some rockets, and some suicide bombers?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    They are justifying the killing.

    Yes. They are. So are you my dear.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Yes. They are. So are you my dear.

    how so?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    hailhailkc wrote:
    I don't deny it…but I'm not going to sit here and act like I can confirm it either. Honestly, I have no idea what the kill ratio is between Israel and their enemies. And for anyone to report that they DO know what the kill ratio is, I have to admit, I find it quite amazing. What makes you think your information is iron clad correct?

    Dude, please. This is a cop-out and you know it.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    how so?

    By suggesting that one side is justified in killing while another is not, of course. Your posts on this issue are framed against Israel. That is fine. There is much to rail about on that side. But you've also made posts in which the core point is that the killing on the other side is "understandable".
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    By suggesting that one side is justified in killing while another is not, of course. Your posts on this issue are framed against Israel. That is fine. There is much to rail about on that side. But you've also made posts in which the core point is that the killing on the other side is "understandable".

    No, I said I understand their clouded judgement due to duress, anger and desperation. I hate that they kill, especially the innocent...I wish they would stop. If they did, I wonder if the world would assist them and defend them if they continued to be mowed down...I'm afraid they would only be killed out in time. That doesn't mean I justify their killing but I can see where it stems from and that needs to be addressed.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    No, I said I understand their clouded judgement due to duress, anger and desperation.

    Ok. Do you understand Israel's then?
    I hate that they kill, especially the innocent...I wish they would stop.

    Good.
    If they did, I wonder if the world would assist them and defend them if they continued to be mowed down...

    Ok. Again, does this justify their calls to mow others down??? Does this justify their calls to erase Israel? Or America?
    I'm afraid they would only be killed out in time.

    Do you fear this about the Israelis?
    That doesn't mean I justify their killing but I can see where it stems from and that needs to be addressed.

    Ok. But if you can understand "where it stems from", why do you not say that about Israel?
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Ok. Do you understand Israel's then?



    Good.



    Ok. Again, does this justify their calls to mow others down??? Does this justify their calls to erase Israel? Or America?



    Do you fear this about the Israelis?



    Ok. But if you can understand "where it stems from", why do you not say that about Israel?

    I think Israel was wrong to take this land from the these people and continue to bully them and deem their lives worthless. I think Israelis have a right to exist, of course. You can't very well turn back now. But they should not invade anymore land and claim it . I don't think the Arabs would be so hostile against them if they would stop taking more and more land and killing people while they do it. I think it is wrong to push people out of their homes because your religion says it's ok. There would be no Israel if not at the cost of spilled blood from the Palestinians. They know this and they push on with more occupation. So no, I don't have as much symapthy for the Israelis. Thats' how I see it but that doesn't mean I justify their death.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I think Israel was wrong to take this land from the these people and continue to bully them and deem their lives worthless.

    Ok. Do you think Hezbollah is wrong for proclaiming the desire to do the same and acting upon it?
    I think Israelis have a right to exist, of course. You can't very well turn back now.

    Wow. You say it as if it's terrible.
    But they should not invade anymore land and claim it .

    And what of Hezbollah?
    I don't think the Arabs would be so hostile against them if they would stop taking more and more land and killing people while they do it.

    Really? Israel gave up control of Lebanon 6 years ago. Yet here we are.
    I think it is wrong to push people out of their homes because your religion says it's ok.

    Me too. That's why I despise Hezbollah too.
    There would be no Israel if not at the cost of spilled blood from the Palestinians.

    What? Are you joking? Jews have lived in that region for centuries. They began to mass there 70 years ago to avoid spilled blood. The nation itself was established by the UN. Certainly Israel and the people that founded it engaged in some questionable behavior then and ever since, but to suggest that the nation was founded on "spilled blood" is to ignore history.
    They know this and they push on with more occupation.

    As does Hezbollah.
    So no, I don't have as much symapthy for the Israelis.

    But you do have sympathy, for the exact same reasons, for Hezbollah. Nowhere here do you mention their desire to destroy Israel. Nowhere here do you mention that there never was an independent Palestine. Nowhere here do you mention the "spilled blood" of innocent Israelis. Nowhere here do you mention the invasions of Hezbollah, Hamas and others.
    Thats' how I see it but that doesn't mean I justify their death.

    Oh, but you do. Reread this very post. It is framed entirely as a justification for what Hezbollah is doing. Everything in it suggest that Israel may not fight, but Hezbollah may.
  • hailhailkc
    hailhailkc Posts: 582
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Dude, please. This is a cop-out and you know it.

    No, it's not a cop out. No one has any true idea what the kill ratio really is.
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  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    hailhailkc wrote:
    No, it's not a cop out. No one has any true idea what the kill ratio really is.

    No one may be able to exactly tell you the kill ratio, but to suggest that there is even a remote possibility, considering the events of the past weeks, that the dead on the south equal or outnumber the north is absolutely foolish. You're saying the above simply to cast an unreasable doubt on the concept that more are dead in the north...and that's a copout.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Ok. Do you think Hezbollah is wrong for proclaiming the desire to do the same and acting upon it?


    When did hezbollah take any land from the Israelis?


    farfromglorified wrote:
    Wow. You say it as if it's terrible.

    A terrible idea.

    farfromglorified wrote:
    And what of Hezbollah?

    They don't invade Israel.

    farfromglorified wrote:
    Really? Israel gave up control of Lebanon 6 years ago. Yet here we are.

    Yep, here we are with Israel still invading.

    farfromglorified wrote:
    Me too. That's why I despise Hezbollah too.

    They are not taking homes or land from Israelis.



    farfromglorified wrote:
    What? Are you joking? Jews have lived in that region for centuries. They began to mass there 70 years ago to avoid spilled blood. The nation itself was established by the UN. Certainly Israel and the people that founded it engaged in some questionable behavior then and ever since, but to suggest that the nation was founded on "spilled blood" is to ignore history.

    They picked a very bad spot for one. If they wanted to avoid spilled blood they shouldn't have opted for a place that required them to do it and would be met with such fierce resistance.

    farfromglorified wrote:
    As does Hezbollah.


    farfromglorified wrote:
    But you do have sympathy, for the exact same reasons, for Hezbollah. Nowhere here do you mention their desire to destroy Israel. Nowhere here do you mention that there never was an independent Palestine. Nowhere here do you mention the "spilled blood" of innocent Israelis. Nowhere here do you mention the invasions of Hezbollah, Hamas and others.

    I think they desire to be left alone and not killed. I don't see them as the aggressors in this. If you do, that fine but I disagree. Show me something about Hezbollah invading and stealing Israeli land.

    farfromglorified wrote:
    Oh, but you do. Reread this very post. It is framed entirely as a justification for what Hezbollah is doing. Everything in it suggest that Israel may not fight, but Hezbollah may.

    I never said I didn't understand the Arab position moreso than the Israeli. That's my opinion of it but it doesn't mean I want them to kill.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    When did hezbollah take any land from the Israelis?

    Never, to my knowledge - they've never been successful. But that doesn't stop them from trying. Hezbollah seeks the end of Israel:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Ideology

    The have declared their intention to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic state.
    A terrible idea.

    It's a "terrible idea" to grant a population a state in their traditional homeland following the systematic destruction of millions of their people? That seems odd since it sounds like you're proposing exactly that for the Palestinians.
    They don't invade Israel.

    Of course they do. Suicide bombings, kinappings, full-on assualts across the border...Hezbollah has invaded Israel many times.
    Yep, here we are with Israel still invading.

    You don't understand. You claimed that if Israel would take steps to end the occupation, these these people wouldn't be so violent. Israel has ended their occupation of Lebanon, and yet Hezbollah has launched numerous attacks since:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Hezbollah_following_the_.22Cedar_Revolution.22

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

    Your claim is wrong. Hezbollah wants Israel destroyed. Ending any occupation does not change that.
    They are not taking homes or land from Israelis.

    They wish to. So far, they've failed in taking those homes or land. But they do destroy homes and lives in the process of trying.
    They picked a very bad spot for one. If they wanted to avoid spilled blood they shouldn't have opted for a place that required them to do it and would be met with such fierce resistance.

    What? Can't you say the same thing about the Palestinians? This is ridiculous. It's not as if no jew was in the British mandate of Palestine before WWII. It is their traditional homeland. Many emigrated to there during the violent events of WWII that attempted to exterminate their people. The British, who owned the land, allowed the UN to define the state of Israel where jews were living.
    I think they desire to be left alone and not killed. I don't see them as the aggressors in this. If you do, that fine but I disagree. Show me something about Hezbollah invading and stealing Israeli land.

    I know you don't see them as the aggressors in this. I see them as one of the aggressors in this.

    Again, you're justifying their killing.
    I never said I didn't understand the Arab position moreso than the Israeli. That's my opinion of it but it doesn't mean I want them to kill.

    You can't have it both ways kid. You can't justify their killing and then tell them "I don't want you to kill". This organization counts on people like you in the same way Israel counts on its blind supporters. And the deaths on both sides will continue as long as you're apologizing for them.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Never, to my knowledge - they've never been successful. But that doesn't stop them from trying. Hezbollah seeks the end of Israel:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Ideology

    The have declared their intention to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic state.



    It's a "terrible idea" to grant a population a state in their traditional homeland following the systematic destruction of millions of their people? That seems odd since it sounds like you're proposing exactly that for the Palestinians.



    Of course they do. Suicide bombings, kinappings, full-on assualts across the border...Hezbollah has invaded Israel many times.



    You don't understand. You claimed that if Israel would take steps to end the occupation, these these people wouldn't be so violent. Israel has ended their occupation of Lebanon, and yet Hezbollah has launched numerous attacks since:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Hezbollah_following_the_.22Cedar_Revolution.22

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

    Your claim is wrong. Hezbollah wants Israel destroyed. Ending any occupation does not change that.



    They wish to. So far, they've failed in taking those homes or land. But they do destroy homes and lives in the process of trying.



    What? Can't you say the same thing about the Palestinians? This is ridiculous. It's not as if no jew was in the British mandate of Palestine before WWII. It is their traditional homeland. Many emigrated to there during the violent events of WWII that attempted to exterminate their people. The British, who owned the land, allowed the UN to define the state of Israel where jews were living.



    I know you don't see them as the aggressors in this. I see them as one of the aggressors in this.

    Again, you're justifying their killing.



    You can't have it both ways kid. You can't justify their killing and then tell them "I don't want you to kill". This organization counts on people like you in the same way Israel counts on its blind supporters. And the deaths on both sides will continue as long as you're apologizing for them.

    How hard can it be to understand?! I said in my first post in this thread that sharing would be a glorious idea. I don't want either to continue taking or killing. I want them to stop killing and learn to live next to each other. I'm more sympathic to the ones who are being pushed out and killed by a billion dollar military funded by my country. If it was the other way around I would feel the same sympathy for Israel. Israel is the one killing by the hundreds fuleing large scale hate and making matters worse. Of course the arabs fuel hate as well but they are not supported by US aid and media. They are the ones being bulldozed out of their homes. So there is where my sympathy lies...people here(the US) don't see both sides as doing wrong and the Arabs suffer because of this. There is no push for a solution, the only solution offered is to bomb them to pieces. Excuse me for feeling sorry for their situation.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • newagehippie
    newagehippie Posts: 749
    El_Kabong wrote:
    god just confirmed it...i'm supposed to have the land you live on. i swear, man! i was out burning a bush and it was told to me by god herself that she created that piece of land you currently live on all for me...and now it's time fo rme to have it...i even wrote it in a book, so you know it's true!

    plz have all your things out by the middle of next month, unless they're nice things, then you can leave them...regardless, be out by the 15th or i will have to force you to leave in self-defense.


    Can't I just live in the closet and pay you taxes on my property...??
    Cheers,
    NEWAGEHIPPIE

    Keep your eyes open, eventually something will happen....
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    How hard can it be to understand?! I said in my first post in this thread that sharing would be a glorious idea.

    That's not hard to understand at all.
    I don't want either to continue taking or killing. I want them to stop killing and learn to live next to each other.

    Excellent.


    The statements above represent a perfect viewpoint. But here come the one-sided justifications..........
    I'm more sympathic to the ones who are being pushed out and killed by a billion dollar military funded by my country.

    How can you be sympathetic based on these standards when they are attempting to push someone else out and killing with a military funded by another country?
    If it was the other way around I would feel the same sympathy for Israel. Israel is the one killing by the hundreds fuleing large scale hate and making matters worse. Of course the arabs fuel hate as well but they are not supported by US aid and media.

    Ok. Both fuel hate. Agreed. You say that Israel is worse because they are supported by the US aid and media. Fair enough. But how is that different than Hezbollah that is supported by Syrian and Iranian aid and supported by their media? And the youtube "documentary" culture?
    They are the ones being bulldozed out of their homes.

    Is there a fundamental difference between a bulldozed Palestinian home and a rocketed Israeli home when the residents of those homes are nothing but innocent civilians???
    So there is where my sympathy lies...people here(the US) don't see both sides as doing wrong and the Arabs suffer because of this. There is no push for a solution, the only solution offered is to bomb them to pieces. Excuse me for feeling sorry for their situation.

    I do excuse you for feeling sorry for their situation. You have much reason to do so. I do not excuse you, however, for using that emotion to justify their actions. And I do not excuse you for not feeling sorry for the Israelis based on the exact same standards.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    How can you be sympathetic based on these standards when they are attempting to push someone else out and killing with a military funded by another country?

    I don't think the goal of the Palestinians is to push out or take over Israeli land or wish death to all Israeli people. I know there are some extremist but that doesn't discredit the Palestinian people as a whole.

    farfromglorified wrote:
    Ok. Both fuel hate. Agreed. You say that Israel is worse because they are supported by the US aid and media. Fair enough. But how is that different than Hezbollah that is supported by Syrian and Iranian aid and supported by their media? And the youtube "documentary" culture?

    Has Syria or Iran gave them billions in aid and support? If they have it sure doesn't show. You can find any perspective you wish on youtube...it's a silly argument, all you have to do is search for the topic you want to see and chances are it will be there....right, left, up or down. It is simply video files put on the internet.


    farfromglorified wrote:
    Is there a fundamental difference between a bulldozed Palestinian home and a rocketed Israeli home when the residents of those homes are nothing but innocent civilians???

    There is not a difference in the innocents that lost their lives, however, Arabs aren't coming in and taking over when they fire rockets. They are trying to scare the Israelis, they are not foolish enough to think their rockets or bombers will destroy all that much. It is wrong, but a scare tactic/angry retaliation and an invasion/occupation are two very different things. If they were the same, I would treat them accordingly.

    farfromglorified wrote:
    I do excuse you for feeling sorry for their situation. You have much reason to do so. I do not excuse you, however, for using that emotion to justify their actions. And I do not excuse you for not feeling sorry for the Israelis based on the exact same standards.

    I didn't justify their actions. Israel does not equal Hezbollah/Hamas.

    Israel has support from the most powerful and wealthy nations on this planet. They live in prosperity because of this. If these people are so equal in wrongness then why is that? Are the Israeli's homes being knocked down? Are the Israeli children malnourished and living in poverty? Are the Israelis demonized by the world as monsters by the majority. They are not the same and will not get an equal reaction from me until they are treated as equals by my country and others. My sympathy stems from these inequalities.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde

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