Pandering 101 (it doesn't matter what you DO, but what you say)

Abookamongstthemany

JD Sal wrote:

I know the point, but your comparison to Bush and the war is unfair and very negative. Ed Rendell, who is a superdelegate for Hillary, said that Obama has done something in bringing people together that no one else in his generation has ever done. And he's old. Bush has divided not only the country, but the world. We had universal support after 9/11, now we're hated and loathed because of Iraq.

Seems you have a lot of animosity toward Obama.

Christ.

I not comparing the two actions...I was just pointing out how one has to speculate at times. Jeez. I was trying to use an exmaple that many here have had to speculate....that's it.

Don't try to make a point where there isn't one to be made.

El_Kabong

JD Sal wrote:

I don't have a lot of time right now to answer your 20 questions about Obama, but if you care for my opinion, I'll look them over as soon as I have a chance and will respond.

In regards to the cc question, didn't Obama vote against the cap because it was too high? Over 30%, right? It sounds like you're spinning this one.

That's like, you vote against a tax rebate because it's only $50 and you think it should be $500. But then someone says 'she wants to raise taxes! she voted against a tax rebate!"

isn't a cap of 30% better than no cap at all???

JD Sal

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Christ.

I not comparing the two actions...I was just pointing out how one has to speculate at times. Jeez. I was trying to use an exmaple that many here have had to speculate....that's it.

Don't try to make a point where there isn't one to be made.

So you're looking at Obama's voting record objectively? Please. You compare Bush and the lies with starting the war to Obama not voting for a cc cap bill because the interest rate was too high. The two don't belong in the same sentence.

I just see a lot of bias in your (constant) criticism of Obama. Whatever. It's late. I'm calling it a night.

JD Sal

El_Kabong wrote:

isn't a cap of 30% better than no cap at all???

No. Do you authorize an Iraq spending bill that has a withdraw date of 2020? Well, it's better than not having a timetable. No.

El_Kabong

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I really don't understand your point here. We are talking about actual votes cast here.

But here's Obama's list

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490

and compare with Kucinich

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=318

wow, obama didn't vote on quite a number of things, like the first energy act, fisa, real id, childrens health insurance program, iraq withdrawl amendment, national defense authorization act, stuff on guantanamo, Appropriations for the Departments of Labor, Health and Human Services, Education, and Related Agencies, intelligence authorization act, expressing the sense of the senate on federalism in iraq, implementing the 9/11 commission's recommendations......he makes dennis look like an a+ student so your poiint is kinda lost, m2h...

but, i guess obama must be awful busy on his almost non-stop media tour he's been on for a few years



and yes, records has A LOT to do w/ who you should vote for, not what's said at pep rallies, to think otherwise is ridiculous

El_Kabong

JD Sal wrote:

No. Do you authorize an Iraq spending bill that has a withdraw date of 2020? Well, it's better than not having a timetable. No.

then put forth another one w/ a timetable to your pleasing

El_Kabong

JD Sal wrote:

So you're looking at Obama's voting record objectively? Please. You compare Bush and the lies with starting the war to Obama not voting for a cc cap bill because the interest rate was too high. The two don't belong in the same sentence.

I just see a lot of bias in your (constant) criticism of Obama. Whatever. It's late. I'm calling it a night.

i guess it's just a coincidence that a large sector of his donations come from credit card lobbyists, eh?

she made it quite clear she wasn't comparing bush and obama or the cc cap and the war, she was giving an example of where ppl had to speculate b/c the person in question would never actually own up to it. no comparison, it must be late for you to keep missing her saying that

Abookamongstthemany

edit: Forget it. I was getting frustrated and wasn't keeping a level head. Not a great day but still that's no excuse. My apologies.

Hoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by my2hands
"I hope Iowans will caucus for me as their first choice ... because of my singular positions on the war, on health care and trade," Kucinich said. "But in those caucus locations where my support doesn't reach the necessary threshold, I strongly encourage all of my supporters to make Barack Obama their second choice."

Dennis Kucinch

flywallyfly wrote:

Kucinich obviously didnt do his research on Obama. I cannot believe he would make a recommendation like that without knowing all of the facts. Kucinich is just as bad as the rest of us Moving Train sheep. Sigh.

That decision was NOT one of support for Obama.

There was a lot more too it in his original statement that was taken from.

Kucinich always does his research, thats all he does 24/7, that is his life of service, he's one of three that actually read the patriot act before voting on it.

Hoon

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

How do you feel about his votes for the Patriot Act?
How do you feel about his votes to fund the war and prolong it instead of urging withdrawl?
How do you feel about his vote for the CAFA?
How do you feel about HR 676 Single Payer National Insurance and his vote against it?
How do you feel about his lobbyists in the nuclear power industry snd his continued support of it?
How do you feel about his vote for the wall on the border and he new campaign stance of being against it?
How do you feel about his vote against the credit card interest rate cap while his campaign has been so against predatory lending?
How do you feel about him sponsering the National Medical Error Disclosure and Compensation Act of 2005?
How do you feel about his opposition to The Hardrock Mining and Reclamation Act of 2007 while having a key advisor in Nevada that is a Nevada-based lobbyist in the employ of various mining companies?
How do you feel about his weak energy policy in a time of crisis?
How do you feel about his doublespeak on NAFTA brought up in this article?
How do you feel about his leanings towards supporting Israel?

I know you know, you know. . . but I just wanted to clarify it for everyone. 8o)

HR676 is Universal, Single Payer, Not for Profit, Health Care.

'Health Care' being the key word. All of the other candidates want to give some or most of us 'Health Insurance'.

HR676 takes the insurance companies out of the picture, Saving us 30% of every dollar that goes toward health insurance.

HR 676 is in legislative form, it just has to be voted on and we have it! If your representatives didn't, put someone in there that will.

The only reason Kucinich and Nader have so far been unsuccessful in their presidential aspirations is because no one knows anything about them.

The Democratic Party, big money/insurance companies are responsible for these crimes.

Nader is kept off the State ballots so you can't even vote for him.

Kucinich is taken out of the debates by silly qualifications immediately before: 1. New Hampshire 2. Iowa 3. Nevada primary's/caucuses . . . . . . .was there another one?

Not to mention certain green party members joining in on that stoning of DJK.

The majority of Americans overwhelming support the issues they stand for.

The corporate media and other squirrelly folk with a semi-interest in jaded politics force it in our ears that there is no hope for what the majority of us want because it appears to be to deep and dark and out of reach.

Thats why We have to be there As Citizens to turn on the light of truth within ourselves and everyone around us.

Because once the spark is within us that cannot be extinguished all of this will be attainable if we simply stand up together and demand it as a people.

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/resources/issues-library/

Abookamongstthemany

Hoon wrote:

I know you know, you know. . . but I just wanted to clarify it for everyone. 8o)

HR676 is Universal, Single Payer, Not for Profit, Health Care.

'Health Care' being the key word. All of the other candidates want to give some or most of us 'Health Insurance'.

HR676 takes the insurance companies out of the picture, Saving us 30% of every dollar that goes toward health insurance.

HR 676 is in legislative form, it just has to be voted on and we have it! If your representatives didn't, put someone in there that will.

The only reason Kucinich and Nader have so far been unsuccessful in their presidential aspirations is because no one knows anything about them.

The Democratic Party, big money/insurance companies are responsible for these crimes.

Nader is kept off the State ballots so you can't even vote for him.

Kucinich is taken out of the debates by silly qualifications immediately before: 1. New Hampshire 2. Iowa 3. Nevada primary's/caucuses . . . . . . .was there another one?

Not to mention certain green party members joining in on that stoning of DJK.

The majority of Americans overwhelming support the issues they stand for.

The corporate media and other squirrelly folk with a semi-interest in jaded politics force it in our ears that there is no hope for what the majority of us want because it appears to be to deep and dark and out of reach.

Thats why We have to be there As Citizens to turn on the light of truth within ourselves and everyone around us.

Because once the spark is within us that cannot be extinguished all of this will be attainable if we simply stand up together and demand it as a people.

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/resources/issues-library/

Thank you.

I started a thread on Single Payer last weekend with a link to a petition and links to contact your representatives. Here's the thread if anyone is interested:

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=275011

my2hands

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I really don't understand your point here. We are talking about actual votes cast here.

But here's Obama's list

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490

and compare with Kucinich

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=318

my point is be careful when going down the slippery slope of senate and house votes... voting is very tricky and when just looked at can give you the wrong picture...

so i was showing some strange non votes and no votes from a politician we both highly respect... if just looking at the votes listed it looked as if he skipped 50 very important votes, and voted NO to child healthcare and NO to iraq withdrawl... of course those are not his stances, but if i just look at the votes provided thats the way it would look... especially if i had a a persoanl agenda to find any reason i didnt like kucinich



as far as voting for nader or another candiate besides the Dem ticket... i want all of those Nader supporters to think back over the last 8 years and how much destruction has been done, and honestyly ask themselves if the same damage would have been done under gore?... hopefully an honest reflection will show them why they need to i november

if nader voters hand McCain the white house, i will move to canada (again i suppurt nader even though he enjoys investing in the same companies he rails against, but i am looking at the big picture here, just as i did in 2000)

just remeber... there will never be a perfect politician... and if you dig enough on ANYBODY you can find negative things you will not like

i may not like the radio in a new car i am buying, but it is the whole package i am buying, not just the radio... and the entire package is the important part

and anybody thinking there will ever be a president that can get elected without SOME level of corporate support, is just not being realistic

Abookamongstthemany

my2hands wrote:

my point is be careful when going down the slippery slope of senate and house votes... voting is very tricky and when just looked at can give you the wrong picture...

so i was showing some strange non votes and no votes from a politician we both highly respect... if just looking at the votes listed it looked as if he skipped 50 very important votes, and voted NO to child healthcare and NO to iraq withdrawl... of course those are not his stances, but if i just look at the votes provided thats the way it would look... especially if i had a a persoanl agenda to find any reason i didnt like kucinich

Again, as for as non votes go, Obama has Kucinich beat by a landslide and some of these were very important votes, as well. People can't be there for every vote, obviously but I would expect them to be there as much as they could instead of going out selling themselves as a great leader and not doing his job. Everyone campaigns, this is true but some have taken it to new heights.

Now back to talking about actual votes cast which was the real problem with Obama. I've already asked how you felt about those votes and broke each one down to a single question. I would love those to be addressed when you find the time. There is no personal agenda against Obama. He just happens to be the likely nod and the one people are saying is going to bring such change to america. I dont see it and have clearly pointed out the reasons why. There's no way in hell i'm going to ever vote for a guy with his kind of record and past. Sorry. I could not support him in good conscience. If the Dem front runner had been anyone else and still had a questionable record, I would still be on here railing against them and you know it. It has nothing to do with the person but everything to do with the type of leader I'd like to see in office and the types I'm tired of seeing in office. Obama falls in the second catagory for me.

I imagine Dennis didn't support the child healthcare because he wanted his HR676, a much better bill, to be considered. And I'm pretty sure with withdrawl vote was based on it being not up to snuff. What do you think?

my2hands wrote:

as far as voting for nader or another candiate besides the Dem ticket... i want all of those Nader supporters to think back over the last 8 years and how much destruction has been done, and honestyly ask themselves if the same damage would have been done under gore?... hopefully an honest reflection will show them why they need to i november

if nader voters hand McCain the white house, i will move to canada (again i suppurt nader even though he enjoys investing in the same companies he rails against, but i am looking at the big picture here, just as i did in 2000)

just remeber... there will never be a perfect politician... and if you dig enough on ANYBODY you can find negative things you will not like

i may not like the radio in a new car i am buying, but it is the whole package i am buying, not just the radio... and the entire package is the important part

and anybody thinking there will ever be a president that can get elected without SOME level of corporate support, is just not being realistic

I'm not casting my vote in fear. That's part of the reason why the Dems have gotten away with the crap they pull. They know they can just get you guys all worked up by the big bad republican lurking in the shadows and you'll line up to vote for them no matter what kind of crap they've done or not done throughout their career. I'm not going to be part of that problem anymore. And I'm certainly not going to blame Nader for the Democratic party's shortcomings. They lose elections because they weren't good enough to get the votes they needed...PERIOD. If they had tackled the issues and not been so busy being republican lite then they might have gotten people like me to vote for them, people who are voting on the issues and records...and not just voting for a questionable to Dem to keep a Rep out. That's silly and there will be no progress as long as this practice is continued. The level of corporate support might always be there but some are simply infested....that's the difference. They have everyone scared and feeling too powerless to stand up for the things they've always believed in.

I didn't have to dig too far to find this shit on Obama. It's all right there in his voting record. I never have once said any candidate is perfect so I really don't get why you guys feel the need to keep beating that dead horse into the ground. I have said, however, that Nader's platform looks much closer to the things I believe in than Obama's...they're not even close, imo. So I'm going to vote on the guy whose stances and past look the best to me. McCain will only get the white house because the Dem nod was not good enough to get the votes needed to beat him.

Flannel Shirt

write in John Edwards on election day. the only one of these liars that gave a shit about the every day american.

my2hands

my2hands wrote:

my point is be careful when going down the slippery slope of senate and house votes... voting is very tricky and when just looked at can give you the wrong picture...

so i was showing some strange non votes and no votes from a politician we both highly respect... if just looking at the votes listed it looked as if he skipped 50 very important votes, and voted NO to child healthcare and NO to iraq withdrawl... of course those are not his stances, but if i just look at the votes provided thats the way it would look... especially if i had a a persoanl agenda to find any reason i didnt like kucinich



as far as voting for nader or another candiate besides the Dem ticket... i want all of those Nader supporters to think back over the last 8 years and how much destruction has been done, and honestyly ask themselves if the same damage would have been done under gore?... hopefully an honest reflection will show them why they need to i november

if nader voters hand McCain the white house, i will move to canada (again i suppurt nader even though he enjoys investing in the same companies he rails against, but i am looking at the big picture here, just as i did in 2000)

just remeber... there will never be a perfect politician... and if you dig enough on ANYBODY you can find negative things you will not like

i may not like the radio in a new car i am buying, but it is the whole package i am buying, not just the radio... and the entire package is the important part

and anybody thinking there will ever be a president that can get elected without SOME level of corporate support, is just not being realistic

wow, thats alot of typos

*reminds self to not post before coffee intake*

El_Kabong

Hoon wrote:

I know you know, you know. . . but I just wanted to clarify it for everyone. 8o)

HR676 is Universal, Single Payer, Not for Profit, Health Care.

'Health Care' being the key word. All of the other candidates want to give some or most of us 'Health Insurance'.

HR676 takes the insurance companies out of the picture, Saving us 30% of every dollar that goes toward health insurance.

HR 676 is in legislative form, it just has to be voted on and we have it! If your representatives didn't, put someone in there that will.

The only reason Kucinich and Nader have so far been unsuccessful in their presidential aspirations is because no one knows anything about them.

The Democratic Party, big money/insurance companies are responsible for these crimes.

Nader is kept off the State ballots so you can't even vote for him.

Kucinich is taken out of the debates by silly qualifications immediately before: 1. New Hampshire 2. Iowa 3. Nevada primary's/caucuses . . . . . . .was there another one?

Not to mention certain green party members joining in on that stoning of DJK.

The majority of Americans overwhelming support the issues they stand for.

The corporate media and other squirrelly folk with a semi-interest in jaded politics force it in our ears that there is no hope for what the majority of us want because it appears to be to deep and dark and out of reach.

Thats why We have to be there As Citizens to turn on the light of truth within ourselves and everyone around us.

Because once the spark is within us that cannot be extinguished all of this will be attainable if we simply stand up together and demand it as a people.

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/resources/issues-library/

now, that is one of the best posts i've read!

nice to see ya around

i read somewhere that by 2015 $1 for every $5 spent will be on health care.

i would really like to know what the monetary figure for the 'affordable' in obama's affordable health insurance program

El_Kabong

Hoon wrote:

Quote:
it in his original statement that was taken from.

Kucinich always does his research, thats all he does 24/7, that is his life of service, he's one of three that actually read the patriot act before voting on it.

i wonder if obama read it any of the times he voted to reauthorize it? i wonder if he read the fisa and intelligence issues he didn't vote on?

El_Kabong

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Again, as for as non votes go, Obama has Kucinich beat by a landslide and some of these were very important votes, as well. People can't be there for every vote, obviously but I would expect them to be there as much as they could instead of going out selling themselves as a great leader and not doing his job. Everyone campaigns, this is true but some have taken it to new heights.

Now back to talking about actual votes cast which was the real problem with Obama. I've already asked how you felt about those votes and broke each one down to a single question. I would love those to be addressed when you find the time. There is no personal agenda against Obama. He just happens to be the likely nod and the one people are saying is going to bring such change to america. I dont see it and have clearly pointed out the reasons why. There's no way in hell i'm going to ever vote for a guy with his kind of record and past. Sorry. I could not support him in good conscience. If the Dem front runner had been anyone else and still had a questionable record, I would still be on here railing against them and you know it. It has nothing to do with the person but everything to do with the type of leader I'd like to see in office and the types I'm tired of seeing in office. Obama falls in the second catagory for me.

I imagine Dennis didn't support the child healthcare because he wanted his HR676, a much better bill, to be considered. And I'm pretty sure with withdrawl vote was based on it being not up to snuff. What do you think?




I'm not casting my vote in fear. That's part of the reason why the Dems have gotten away with the crap they pull. They know they can just get you guys all worked up by the big bad republican lurking in the shadows and you'll line up to vote for them no matter what kind of crap they've done or not done throughout their career. I'm not going to be part of that problem anymore. And I'm certainly not going to blame Nader for the Democratic party's shortcomings. They lose elections because they weren't good enough to get the votes they needed...PERIOD. If they had tackled the issues and not been so busy being republican lite then they might have gotten people like me to vote for them, people who are voting on the issues and records...and not just voting for a questionable to Dem to keep a Rep out. That's silly and there will be no progress as long as this practice is continued. The level of corporate support might always be there but some are simply infested....that's the difference. They have everyone scared and feeling too powerless to stand up for the things they've always believed in.

I didn't have to dig too far to find this shit on Obama. It's all right there in his voting record. I never have once said any candidate is perfect so I really don't get why you guys feel the need to keep beating that dead horse into the ground. I have said, however, that Nader's platform looks much closer to the things I believe in than Obama's...they're not even close, imo. So I'm going to vote on the guy whose stances and past look the best to me. McCain will only get the white house because the Dem nod was not good enough to get the votes needed to beat him.

excellent post and points!!

they can't blame us, they're the ones who kept saying 'but, but, but, the media told us this guy was electable!!' obviously not if they can't beat grandpappy mccain

my2hands

the american public does not have the political will to mandate single payer universal health care...

i know it, you know it, and they know it...

the insurance lobby has become to powerful to just push aside, especially with the half asleep american public hammered for years with lies and half truths about "socialized medicine", "giveaways", "welfare state", and how bad the actual services provided would be...

i think oabam realizes that, and is simply trying to be SUCCESFUL in "breaking the ice" on universal health care... then once the ice is broken long term prospects of progress on the front would be be more attainable

he has said that his approach is the best chance to bring universal health care to america... and he jusy might be correct


i fully support SPUHC, but i am in the minority as are many of my like minded friends on the left that prefer it...

Abookamongstthemany

my2hands wrote:

the american public does not have the political will to mandate single payer universal health care...

i know it, you know it, and they know it...

the insurance lobby has become to powerful to just push aside, especially with the half asleep american public hammered for years with lies and half truths about "socialized medicine", "giveaways", "welfare state", and how bad the actual services provided would be...

i think oabam realizes that, and is simply trying to be SUCCESFUL in "breaking the ice" on universal health care... then once the ice is broken long term prospects of progress on the front would be be more attainable

he has said that his approach is the best chance to bring universal health care to america... and he jusy might be correct


i fully support SPUHC, but i am in the minority as are many of my like minded friends on the left that prefer it...

Sorry, I don't know that and don't believe it for a second.

Oh, I believe American people do have the will and would be able to handle it just fine seeing as how the Europeans, Canadians and Cubans can manage. Now that's not the line the media's gonna spin but I think we all know the obvious reasons for that.