First off, I'm going to have to disagree with your 'unattainable' defeatist attitude. Congress doesn't get to tell us how the country is ran....we the people are supposed to tell them and guide them by our voice and votes. If Nader got elected it should send a clear message to the rest of Washington that the citizenry has spoken and want real progress and are no longer complacent with the mediocrity of the Democratic party and their pandering to special interests selling our country off piece by piece. It seems to me they might choose to listen or else lose their seats, as well. But that would only happen in a country where the people acted like they had the power and actually utilized this thing we're supposed to have called Democracy instead of waiting on cues from the media as to who is 'electable'. The media isn't going to limit my decisions or choices.
Secondly, I really don't care to debate with you about how old or angry you view Ralph Nader. I'm hoping for discussions here based on the issues with a little more substance. I hope that most of you aren't making your decisions based on this either...I kinda like to expect more from the usually well informed people who post in this forum for the most part. I'll post a link top the questions I'd like to discuss about Obama's record since that's why the thread was started in the first place.
It is not a defeatist attitude, it is a realist attitude. Like I said - I believe Congress has to change before someone like Nader can make a difference. That opinion has NOTHING to do with your "media driven " dribble. Only a third party candidate with extreme cult of personality could force today's Congress to budge and Nader sure as hell aint that.
Who said I wanted to debate about my opinion that Nader's old and angry? That is my opinion, if you dont agree then more power to you. Obviously most people in this country agree with me that Nader would NOT make a good president for a miriad of reasons.
Goodness, I already said twice that I'm not an Obama fan. I've just wanted to post that Nader is not an alternative either -- IN MY OPINION. If you just want to stick to the OP and not vary one bit then I have nothing further to say because I'm not here to DEFEND the man.
It is not a defeatist attitude, it is a realist attitude. Like I said - I believe Congress has to change before someone like Nader can make a difference. That opinion has NOTHING to do with your "media driven " dribble. Only a third party candidate with extreme cult of personality could force today's Congress to budge and Nader sure as hell aint that.
Who said I wanted to debate about my opinion that Nader's old and angry? That is my opinion, if you dont agree then more power to you. Obviously most people in this country agree with me that Nader would NOT make a good president for a miriad of reasons.
Goodness, I already said twice that I'm not an Obama fan. I've just wanted to post that Nader is not an alternative either -- IN MY OPINION. If you just want to stick to the OP and not vary one bit then I have nothing further to say because I'm not here to DEFEND the man.
Obviously, I disagree with your take on Nader. And I don't guess you want to tell me about the mirad of reasons this you and this country think he wouldn't make a good president. It's your opinion to have, I just thought we were here to discuss these things.
I know you said you aren't an Obama fan. But I guess I was just wondering who you were voting for if voting at all and why? I was assuming you were going with the 'lesser of two evils' approach and still voting for Obama. That's why I was interested in a comparison.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
sure, I have some thoughts about the points raised in the article...
they're subjective, at best...for me, it seems as if he's playing the middle...I mean, what were the details of the bill he opposed, what sort of things were added to the said bills he opposed...? what are the true ramifications of those said votes....?
for me, I want someone who can work with everyone...sure, he's made some choices I don't agree with...and if he gets the nod, I'll be sure to speak out against the things I don't agree with...just because I'm leaning toward Obama, it doesn't mean I'll be walking lock-step with him....
I think I'm looking at this election differently that you...I'm looking for someone who is going to make attempts to work in the middle...I guess I'm looking at what I don't want....I don't want someone who is as divisive as bushy...and billary is that person(s)...s/he is as bad as bush, in my view...
would I love to be able to vote for your boy, Dennis....I sure would....but the voters in earlier primaries did not give me that chance...
again, I have to ask, give me a politician who doesn't "pander"....
I think Nader wouldn't pander nearly as much and his stance on the important issues that the other corporate candidates ignore is a big plus.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
"I hope Iowans will caucus for me as their first choice ... because of my singular positions on the war, on health care and trade," Kucinich said. "But in those caucus locations where my support doesn't reach the necessary threshold, I strongly encourage all of my supporters to make Barack Obama their second choice."
Dennis Kucinch
Yeah, I'm not Dennis Kucinich even though I love the guy and think the world of him. He is a Democrat, though and has always stayed true to his party. I'm not so inclined to do so, especially when they put up candidates that don't deserve my support. I can't just ignore my principles to get behind Obama knowing the stuff I know about him. I can't bring myself to be part of this horrid system anymore.
I'll make my own decisions based on me not what someone is doing.
A man who does not think for himself does not think at all.
~Oscar Wilde
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Kucinich obviously didnt do his research on Obama. I cannot believe he would make a recommendation like that without knowing all of the facts. Kucinich is just as bad as the rest of us Moving Train sheep. Sigh.
Don't be so hard on yourselves. I know you only have the best intentions. I just disagree and am gonna express it.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
How do you feel about his vote against the credit card interest rate cap while his campaign has been so against predatory lending?
I don't have a lot of time right now to answer your 20 questions about Obama, but if you care for my opinion, I'll look them over as soon as I have a chance and will respond.
In regards to the cc question, didn't Obama vote against the cap because it was too high? Over 30%, right? It sounds like you're spinning this one.
That's like, you vote against a tax rebate because it's only $50 and you think it should be $500. But then someone says 'she wants to raise taxes! she voted against a tax rebate!"
these are some of the bills that Dennis Kucinich chose not to vote on over the past year or so... alot of which were very good bils...
3/5/08 Vote 94: H RES 1014: Providing for the Consideration of H.R. 1014, Paul Wellstone Mental Health and Addiction Equity Act Not Voting No Yes
12/19/07 Vote 1185: H R 4040: Consumer Product Safety Modernization Act
12/19/07 Vote 1183: H R 3996: Temporary Tax Relief Act of 2007
12/4/07 Vote 1124: H R 3887: William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2007
11/15/07 Vote 1122: H R 3043: Making Appropriations for the Department of Labor, Health and Human Services, and Education, and Related Agencies for Fiscal Year Ending September 30, 2008, and for Other Purposes
11/15/07 Vote 1121: H R 4136: Enhancing the Effective Prosecution of Child Pornography Act of 2007 Not Voting Yes Yes
11/15/07 Vote 1120: H R 3773: Responsible Electronic Surveillance That is Overseen, Reviewed, and Effective Act Not Voting No Yes
11/15/07 Vote 1118: H R 3915: Mortgage Reform and Anti-Predatory Lending Act
11/15/07 Vote 1111: H RES 824: Providing for Further Consideration of H.R. 3773, to Amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978
11/15/07 Vote 1109: H RES 825: Providing for Consideration of H.R. 3915, Mortgage Reform and Anti-Predatory Lending Act
10/30/07 Vote 1017: H R 3867: Small Business Contracting Program Improvements Act Not Voting Yes Yes
10/29/07 Vote 1011: H RES 573: Recognizing and Commending the Efforts of the United States Public and Advocacy Groups to Raise Awareness About and Help End the Worsening Humanitarian Crisis and Genocide in Darfur, Sudan, and for Other Purposes
10/29/07 Vote 1010: H R 3224: Dam Rehabilitation and Repair Act of 2007
10/15/07 Vote 963: H R 20: Melanie Blocker-Stokes Postpartum Depression Research Care Act
10/9/07 Vote 950: H R 400: War Profiteering Prevention Act
10/9/07 Vote 949: H RES 32: Denouncing the Practices of Female Genital Mutilation, Domestic Violence, “Honor Killings”, and Other Gender-Based Persecutions and Expressing the Sense of the House of Representatives That Participation, Protection, Recognition, and Independence of Women is Crucial to Achieving a Just, Moral and Honorable Society
9/26/07 Vote 913: H R 2693: Popcorn Workers Lung Disease Prevention Act
9/24/07 Vote 893: H R 1199: Drug Endangered Children Act of 2007
9/18/07 Vote 877: H R 3096: To Promote Freedom and Democracy in Vietnam
9/17/07 Vote 868: H R 1657: To Establish a Science and Technology Scholarship Program to Award Scholarships to Recruit and Prepart Students for Careers in the National Weather Service and in National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Marine Research, Atmospheric Research, and Satellite Programs.
9/17/07 Vote 867: H R 3246: Regional Economic and Infrastructure Development Act of 2007.
9/6/07 Vote 859: H R 2786: Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Reauthorization Act of 2007
9/6/07 Vote 855: H RES 633: Providing for Consideration of the Bill (H.R. 2786) to Reauthorize the Programs for Housing Assistance for Native Americans. Not Voting
9/4/07 Vote 849: H R 2669: College Cost Reduction Act of 2007
8/4/07 Vote 832: H R 3221: New Direction for Energy Independence, National Security, and Consumer Protection Act
8/4/07 Vote 826: H RES 615: Providing for Consideration of H.R. 3221, Energy Policy Act and H.R. 2776, to Provide Tax Incentives for the Production of Renewable Energy and Energy Conservation
7/27/07 Vote 757: H R 1: Implementing the 9/11commission Recommendations Act
and these are a couple bills he flat out voted NO against recently...
9/25/07 Vote 906: H R 976: In this 265 to 159 vote the House passed an expansion of the State Children's Health Insurance Program. The bill also passed the Senate by a vote of 68 to 31. The bill increases total funding for the program to $60 billion over the next five years and provides health insurance for 9 million currently uninsured American children. The $7 billion yearly expansions were a major sticking point for the White House and ultimately lead to the fourth presidential veto from the Bush administration. The measure is a key agenda item for the Democratic majority in Congress, and Democratic leaders have vowed to push for a veto override, which would require a two-thirds vote. White House press secretary Dana Perino criticized Democrats for sending the president a bill she said they knew would be dead on arrival. “They made their political point,” Perino said. The White House contended that the 61-cent increase in the federal tobacco tax would not be able to recoup the required funds needed to fund the bill. White House officials also argued the measure would push millions of children already covered by private health insurance into publicly financed health care program
7/12/07 Vote 624: H R 2956: This bill would require the president to begin reducing the number of U.S. troops serving in Iraq 120 days after its enactment and would require most troops to be withdrawn by April 1, 2008. The bill also states that the 2002 congressional authorization for the Iraq war only authorized the president use force to confront an Iraqi government that threatened the United States. The measure says that the new Iraqi government is not a threat and that it "now be responsible for Iraq's future course." Language in the bill requires the president to submit a "comprehensive strategy" for Iraq to certain congressional committees by January 1, 2008 and requires him to update that strategy again in July, 2008 and every 90 days thereafter. The bill passed the House on July 12 by a vote of 223 to 201. President Bush has promised to veto any bill that sets a deadline for troop withdrawal.
so thats why i am careful when looking at voting records, it can be complicated... without scanning all of Obama's votes, i do know that he has been consistently ranked as the most "liberal" senator as far as voting record goes, from all of the folks that rank that type of thing... of course, being the most liberal member of the senate will not satisfy most hard line lefty's nor will it be as progressive as i would like... but he is on the rioght side of a MAJORITY of issues for me, not ALL, but MOST... there is no candidate that will satisfy me or anyone else on every issue
I don't have a lot of time right now to answer your 20 questions about Obama, but if you care for my opinion, I'll look them over as soon as I have a chance and will respond.
In regards to the cc question, didn't Obama vote against the cap because it was too high? Over 30%, right? It sounds like you're spinning this one.
That's like, you vote against a tax rebate because it's only $50 and you think it should be $500. But then someone says 'she wants to raise taxes! she voted against a tax rebate!"
Gonzalez raises an interesting concern in the piece from the OP:
"Now Obama explains his vote by saying the amendment was poorly written or set the ceiling too high. His explanation isn’t credible as Obama offered no lower number as an alternative, and didn’t put forward his own amendment clarifying whatever language he found objectionable.
Why wouldn’t Obama have voted to create the first federal ceiling on predatory credit card interest rates, particularly as he calls himself a champion of the poor and middle classes?"
So why not put forward his own amendment? Could it be because of his supporters inside the financial and banking industry who happen to be quite guilty of predatory lending? Naaah....couldn't be.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
these are some of the bills that Dennis Kucinich chose not to vote on over the past year or so... alot of which were very good bils...
3/5/08 Vote 94: H RES 1014: Providing for the Consideration of H.R. 1014, Paul Wellstone Mental Health and Addiction Equity Act Not Voting No Yes
12/19/07 Vote 1185: H R 4040: Consumer Product Safety Modernization Act
12/19/07 Vote 1183: H R 3996: Temporary Tax Relief Act of 2007
12/4/07 Vote 1124: H R 3887: William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2007
11/15/07 Vote 1122: H R 3043: Making Appropriations for the Department of Labor, Health and Human Services, and Education, and Related Agencies for Fiscal Year Ending September 30, 2008, and for Other Purposes
11/15/07 Vote 1121: H R 4136: Enhancing the Effective Prosecution of Child Pornography Act of 2007 Not Voting Yes Yes
11/15/07 Vote 1120: H R 3773: Responsible Electronic Surveillance That is Overseen, Reviewed, and Effective Act Not Voting No Yes
11/15/07 Vote 1118: H R 3915: Mortgage Reform and Anti-Predatory Lending Act
11/15/07 Vote 1111: H RES 824: Providing for Further Consideration of H.R. 3773, to Amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978
11/15/07 Vote 1109: H RES 825: Providing for Consideration of H.R. 3915, Mortgage Reform and Anti-Predatory Lending Act
10/30/07 Vote 1017: H R 3867: Small Business Contracting Program Improvements Act Not Voting Yes Yes
10/29/07 Vote 1011: H RES 573: Recognizing and Commending the Efforts of the United States Public and Advocacy Groups to Raise Awareness About and Help End the Worsening Humanitarian Crisis and Genocide in Darfur, Sudan, and for Other Purposes
10/29/07 Vote 1010: H R 3224: Dam Rehabilitation and Repair Act of 2007
10/15/07 Vote 963: H R 20: Melanie Blocker-Stokes Postpartum Depression Research Care Act
10/9/07 Vote 950: H R 400: War Profiteering Prevention Act
10/9/07 Vote 949: H RES 32: Denouncing the Practices of Female Genital Mutilation, Domestic Violence, “Honor Killings”, and Other Gender-Based Persecutions and Expressing the Sense of the House of Representatives That Participation, Protection, Recognition, and Independence of Women is Crucial to Achieving a Just, Moral and Honorable Society
9/26/07 Vote 913: H R 2693: Popcorn Workers Lung Disease Prevention Act
9/24/07 Vote 893: H R 1199: Drug Endangered Children Act of 2007
9/18/07 Vote 877: H R 3096: To Promote Freedom and Democracy in Vietnam
9/17/07 Vote 868: H R 1657: To Establish a Science and Technology Scholarship Program to Award Scholarships to Recruit and Prepart Students for Careers in the National Weather Service and in National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Marine Research, Atmospheric Research, and Satellite Programs.
9/17/07 Vote 867: H R 3246: Regional Economic and Infrastructure Development Act of 2007.
9/6/07 Vote 859: H R 2786: Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Reauthorization Act of 2007
9/6/07 Vote 855: H RES 633: Providing for Consideration of the Bill (H.R. 2786) to Reauthorize the Programs for Housing Assistance for Native Americans. Not Voting
9/4/07 Vote 849: H R 2669: College Cost Reduction Act of 2007
8/4/07 Vote 832: H R 3221: New Direction for Energy Independence, National Security, and Consumer Protection Act
8/4/07 Vote 826: H RES 615: Providing for Consideration of H.R. 3221, Energy Policy Act and H.R. 2776, to Provide Tax Incentives for the Production of Renewable Energy and Energy Conservation
7/27/07 Vote 757: H R 1: Implementing the 9/11commission Recommendations Act
and these are a couple bills he flat out voted NO against recently...
9/25/07 Vote 906: H R 976: In this 265 to 159 vote the House passed an expansion of the State Children's Health Insurance Program. The bill also passed the Senate by a vote of 68 to 31. The bill increases total funding for the program to $60 billion over the next five years and provides health insurance for 9 million currently uninsured American children. The $7 billion yearly expansions were a major sticking point for the White House and ultimately lead to the fourth presidential veto from the Bush administration. The measure is a key agenda item for the Democratic majority in Congress, and Democratic leaders have vowed to push for a veto override, which would require a two-thirds vote. White House press secretary Dana Perino criticized Democrats for sending the president a bill she said they knew would be dead on arrival. “They made their political point,” Perino said. The White House contended that the 61-cent increase in the federal tobacco tax would not be able to recoup the required funds needed to fund the bill. White House officials also argued the measure would push millions of children already covered by private health insurance into publicly financed health care program
7/12/07 Vote 624: H R 2956: This bill would require the president to begin reducing the number of U.S. troops serving in Iraq 120 days after its enactment and would require most troops to be withdrawn by April 1, 2008. The bill also states that the 2002 congressional authorization for the Iraq war only authorized the president use force to confront an Iraqi government that threatened the United States. The measure says that the new Iraqi government is not a threat and that it "now be responsible for Iraq's future course." Language in the bill requires the president to submit a "comprehensive strategy" for Iraq to certain congressional committees by January 1, 2008 and requires him to update that strategy again in July, 2008 and every 90 days thereafter. The bill passed the House on July 12 by a vote of 223 to 201. President Bush has promised to veto any bill that sets a deadline for troop withdrawal.
so thats why i am careful when looking at voting records, it can be complicated... without scanning all of Obama's votes, i do know that he has been consistently ranked as the most "liberal" senator as far as voting record goes, from all of the folks that rank that type of thing... of course, being the most liberal member of the senate will not satisfy most hard line lefty's nor will it be as progressive as i would like... but he is on the rioght side of a MAJORITY of issues for me, not ALL, but MOST... there is no candidate that will satisfy me or anyone else on every issue
I really don't understand your point here. We are talking about actual votes cast here.
Gonzalez raises an interesting concern in the piece from the OP:
"Now Obama explains his vote by saying the amendment was poorly written or set the ceiling too high. His explanation isn’t credible as Obama offered no lower number as an alternative, and didn’t put forward his own amendment clarifying whatever language he found objectionable.
Why wouldn’t Obama have voted to create the first federal ceiling on predatory credit card interest rates, particularly as he calls himself a champion of the poor and middle classes?"
So why not put forward his own amendment? Could it be because of his supporters inside the financial and banking industry who happen to be quite guilty of predatory lending? Naaah....couldn't be.
Can you imagine a 30% interest rate on a credit card? I would have voted against that legislation too. As to why he didn't start his own with a lower cap, I don't know the answer. It's a fair question, but you're speculating about the answer being due to his supporters inside the financial and banking industry.
Can you imagine a 30% interest rate on a credit card? I would have voted against that legislation too. As to why he didn't start his own with a lower cap, I don't know the answer. It's a fair question, but you're speculating about the answer being due to his supporters inside the financial and banking industry.
That I am and I don't believe he's going be saying that if it were true, do you?
Do you think Bush is gonna come out and say we went to war for oil?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That I am and I don't believe he's going be saying that if it were true, do you?
Do you think Bush is gonna come out and say we went to war for oil?
Of course not, but it's a totally different question about why Obama didn't push his own legislation for a lower cc cap and why Bush started an unnecessary war based on lies that will end up killing hundreds of thousands of people, cost America trillions of dollars, and go down as the biggest foreign policy blunder in history.
Of course not, but it's a totally different question about why Obama didn't push his own legislation for a lower cc cap and why Bush started an unnecessary war based on lies that will end up killing hundreds of thousands of people, cost America trillions of dollars, and go down as the biggest foreign policy blunder in history.
Obviously.
The point was, people have to speculate when we know that the possible truth is not going to be owned up to.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The point was, people have to speculate when we know that the possible truth is not going to be owned up to.
I know the point, but your comparison to Bush and the war is unfair and very negative. Ed Rendell, who is a superdelegate for Hillary, said that Obama has done something in bringing people together that no one else in his generation has ever done. And he's old. Bush has divided not only the country, but the world. We had universal support after 9/11, now we're hated and loathed because of Iraq.
I know the point, but your comparison to Bush and the war is unfair and very negative. Ed Rendell, who is a superdelegate for Hillary, said that Obama has done something in bringing people together that no one else in his generation has ever done. And he's old. Bush has divided not only the country, but the world. We had universal support after 9/11, now we're hated and loathed because of Iraq.
Seems you have a lot of animosity toward Obama.
Christ.
I not comparing the two actions...I was just pointing out how one has to speculate at times. Jeez. I was trying to use an exmaple that many here have had to speculate....that's it.
Don't try to make a point where there isn't one to be made.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't have a lot of time right now to answer your 20 questions about Obama, but if you care for my opinion, I'll look them over as soon as I have a chance and will respond.
In regards to the cc question, didn't Obama vote against the cap because it was too high? Over 30%, right? It sounds like you're spinning this one.
That's like, you vote against a tax rebate because it's only $50 and you think it should be $500. But then someone says 'she wants to raise taxes! she voted against a tax rebate!"
isn't a cap of 30% better than no cap at all???
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I not comparing the two actions...I was just pointing out how one has to speculate at times. Jeez. I was trying to use an exmaple that many here have had to speculate....that's it.
Don't try to make a point where there isn't one to be made.
So you're looking at Obama's voting record objectively? Please. You compare Bush and the lies with starting the war to Obama not voting for a cc cap bill because the interest rate was too high. The two don't belong in the same sentence.
I just see a lot of bias in your (constant) criticism of Obama. Whatever. It's late. I'm calling it a night.
wow, obama didn't vote on quite a number of things, like the first energy act, fisa, real id, childrens health insurance program, iraq withdrawl amendment, national defense authorization act, stuff on guantanamo, Appropriations for the Departments of Labor, Health and Human Services, Education, and Related Agencies, intelligence authorization act, expressing the sense of the senate on federalism in iraq, implementing the 9/11 commission's recommendations......he makes dennis look like an a+ student so your poiint is kinda lost, m2h...
but, i guess obama must be awful busy on his almost non-stop media tour he's been on for a few years
and yes, records has A LOT to do w/ who you should vote for, not what's said at pep rallies, to think otherwise is ridiculous
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
No. Do you authorize an Iraq spending bill that has a withdraw date of 2020? Well, it's better than not having a timetable. No.
then put forth another one w/ a timetable to your pleasing
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
So you're looking at Obama's voting record objectively? Please. You compare Bush and the lies with starting the war to Obama not voting for a cc cap bill because the interest rate was too high. The two don't belong in the same sentence.
I just see a lot of bias in your (constant) criticism of Obama. Whatever. It's late. I'm calling it a night.
i guess it's just a coincidence that a large sector of his donations come from credit card lobbyists, eh?
she made it quite clear she wasn't comparing bush and obama or the cc cap and the war, she was giving an example of where ppl had to speculate b/c the person in question would never actually own up to it. no comparison, it must be late for you to keep missing her saying that
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Quote:
Originally Posted by my2hands
"I hope Iowans will caucus for me as their first choice ... because of my singular positions on the war, on health care and trade," Kucinich said. "But in those caucus locations where my support doesn't reach the necessary threshold, I strongly encourage all of my supporters to make Barack Obama their second choice."
Kucinich obviously didnt do his research on Obama. I cannot believe he would make a recommendation like that without knowing all of the facts. Kucinich is just as bad as the rest of us Moving Train sheep. Sigh.
That decision was NOT one of support for Obama.
There was a lot more too it in his original statement that was taken from.
Kucinich always does his research, thats all he does 24/7, that is his life of service, he's one of three that actually read the patriot act before voting on it.
If you keep yourself as the final arbiter you will be less susceptible to infection from cultural illusion.
How do you feel about his votes for the Patriot Act?
How do you feel about his votes to fund the war and prolong it instead of urging withdrawl?
How do you feel about his vote for the CAFA?
How do you feel about HR 676 Single Payer National Insurance and his vote against it?
How do you feel about his lobbyists in the nuclear power industry snd his continued support of it?
How do you feel about his vote for the wall on the border and he new campaign stance of being against it?
How do you feel about his vote against the credit card interest rate cap while his campaign has been so against predatory lending?
How do you feel about him sponsering the National Medical Error Disclosure and Compensation Act of 2005?
How do you feel about his opposition to The Hardrock Mining and Reclamation Act of 2007 while having a key advisor in Nevada that is a Nevada-based lobbyist in the employ of various mining companies?
How do you feel about his weak energy policy in a time of crisis?
How do you feel about his doublespeak on NAFTA brought up in this article?
How do you feel about his leanings towards supporting Israel?
I know you know, you know. . . but I just wanted to clarify it for everyone. 8o)
HR676 is Universal, Single Payer, Not for Profit, Health Care.
'Health Care' being the key word. All of the other candidates want to give some or most of us 'Health Insurance'.
HR676 takes the insurance companies out of the picture, Saving us 30% of every dollar that goes toward health insurance.
HR 676 is in legislative form, it just has to be voted on and we have it! If your representatives didn't, put someone in there that will.
The only reason Kucinich and Nader have so far been unsuccessful in their presidential aspirations is because no one knows anything about them.
The Democratic Party, big money/insurance companies are responsible for these crimes.
Nader is kept off the State ballots so you can't even vote for him.
Kucinich is taken out of the debates by silly qualifications immediately before: 1. New Hampshire 2. Iowa 3. Nevada primary's/caucuses . . . . . . .was there another one?
Not to mention certain green party members joining in on that stoning of DJK.
The majority of Americans overwhelming support the issues they stand for.
The corporate media and other squirrelly folk with a semi-interest in jaded politics force it in our ears that there is no hope for what the majority of us want because it appears to be to deep and dark and out of reach.
Thats why We have to be there As Citizens to turn on the light of truth within ourselves and everyone around us.
Because once the spark is within us that cannot be extinguished all of this will be attainable if we simply stand up together and demand it as a people.
Comments
It is not a defeatist attitude, it is a realist attitude. Like I said - I believe Congress has to change before someone like Nader can make a difference. That opinion has NOTHING to do with your "media driven " dribble. Only a third party candidate with extreme cult of personality could force today's Congress to budge and Nader sure as hell aint that.
Who said I wanted to debate about my opinion that Nader's old and angry? That is my opinion, if you dont agree then more power to you. Obviously most people in this country agree with me that Nader would NOT make a good president for a miriad of reasons.
Goodness, I already said twice that I'm not an Obama fan. I've just wanted to post that Nader is not an alternative either -- IN MY OPINION. If you just want to stick to the OP and not vary one bit then I have nothing further to say because I'm not here to DEFEND the man.
Obviously, I disagree with your take on Nader. And I don't guess you want to tell me about the mirad of reasons this you and this country think he wouldn't make a good president. It's your opinion to have, I just thought we were here to discuss these things.
I know you said you aren't an Obama fan. But I guess I was just wondering who you were voting for if voting at all and why? I was assuming you were going with the 'lesser of two evils' approach and still voting for Obama. That's why I was interested in a comparison.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think Nader wouldn't pander nearly as much and his stance on the important issues that the other corporate candidates ignore is a big plus.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yeah, I'm not Dennis Kucinich even though I love the guy and think the world of him. He is a Democrat, though and has always stayed true to his party. I'm not so inclined to do so, especially when they put up candidates that don't deserve my support. I can't just ignore my principles to get behind Obama knowing the stuff I know about him. I can't bring myself to be part of this horrid system anymore.
I'll make my own decisions based on me not what someone is doing.
A man who does not think for himself does not think at all.
~Oscar Wilde
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Don't be so hard on yourselves. I know you only have the best intentions. I just disagree and am gonna express it.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
perhaps you're right...but I have to admit...I know next to nothing about Nader...with that said, I'll surely look his way...
again, for me, I'm looking for something other that Mcbush or billary...
and we know you'll do it, too....:D
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=274637&highlight=Nader
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
thanks...!
You're welcome
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't have a lot of time right now to answer your 20 questions about Obama, but if you care for my opinion, I'll look them over as soon as I have a chance and will respond.
In regards to the cc question, didn't Obama vote against the cap because it was too high? Over 30%, right? It sounds like you're spinning this one.
That's like, you vote against a tax rebate because it's only $50 and you think it should be $500. But then someone says 'she wants to raise taxes! she voted against a tax rebate!"
3/5/08 Vote 94: H RES 1014: Providing for the Consideration of H.R. 1014, Paul Wellstone Mental Health and Addiction Equity Act Not Voting No Yes
12/19/07 Vote 1185: H R 4040: Consumer Product Safety Modernization Act
12/19/07 Vote 1183: H R 3996: Temporary Tax Relief Act of 2007
12/4/07 Vote 1124: H R 3887: William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2007
11/15/07 Vote 1122: H R 3043: Making Appropriations for the Department of Labor, Health and Human Services, and Education, and Related Agencies for Fiscal Year Ending September 30, 2008, and for Other Purposes
11/15/07 Vote 1121: H R 4136: Enhancing the Effective Prosecution of Child Pornography Act of 2007 Not Voting Yes Yes
11/15/07 Vote 1120: H R 3773: Responsible Electronic Surveillance That is Overseen, Reviewed, and Effective Act Not Voting No Yes
11/15/07 Vote 1118: H R 3915: Mortgage Reform and Anti-Predatory Lending Act
11/15/07 Vote 1111: H RES 824: Providing for Further Consideration of H.R. 3773, to Amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978
11/15/07 Vote 1109: H RES 825: Providing for Consideration of H.R. 3915, Mortgage Reform and Anti-Predatory Lending Act
10/30/07 Vote 1017: H R 3867: Small Business Contracting Program Improvements Act Not Voting Yes Yes
10/29/07 Vote 1011: H RES 573: Recognizing and Commending the Efforts of the United States Public and Advocacy Groups to Raise Awareness About and Help End the Worsening Humanitarian Crisis and Genocide in Darfur, Sudan, and for Other Purposes
10/29/07 Vote 1010: H R 3224: Dam Rehabilitation and Repair Act of 2007
10/15/07 Vote 963: H R 20: Melanie Blocker-Stokes Postpartum Depression Research Care Act
10/9/07 Vote 950: H R 400: War Profiteering Prevention Act
10/9/07 Vote 949: H RES 32: Denouncing the Practices of Female Genital Mutilation, Domestic Violence, “Honor Killings”, and Other Gender-Based Persecutions and Expressing the Sense of the House of Representatives That Participation, Protection, Recognition, and Independence of Women is Crucial to Achieving a Just, Moral and Honorable Society
9/26/07 Vote 913: H R 2693: Popcorn Workers Lung Disease Prevention Act
9/24/07 Vote 893: H R 1199: Drug Endangered Children Act of 2007
9/18/07 Vote 877: H R 3096: To Promote Freedom and Democracy in Vietnam
9/17/07 Vote 868: H R 1657: To Establish a Science and Technology Scholarship Program to Award Scholarships to Recruit and Prepart Students for Careers in the National Weather Service and in National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Marine Research, Atmospheric Research, and Satellite Programs.
9/17/07 Vote 867: H R 3246: Regional Economic and Infrastructure Development Act of 2007.
9/6/07 Vote 859: H R 2786: Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Reauthorization Act of 2007
9/6/07 Vote 855: H RES 633: Providing for Consideration of the Bill (H.R. 2786) to Reauthorize the Programs for Housing Assistance for Native Americans. Not Voting
9/4/07 Vote 849: H R 2669: College Cost Reduction Act of 2007
8/4/07 Vote 832: H R 3221: New Direction for Energy Independence, National Security, and Consumer Protection Act
8/4/07 Vote 826: H RES 615: Providing for Consideration of H.R. 3221, Energy Policy Act and H.R. 2776, to Provide Tax Incentives for the Production of Renewable Energy and Energy Conservation
7/27/07 Vote 757: H R 1: Implementing the 9/11commission Recommendations Act
and these are a couple bills he flat out voted NO against recently...
9/25/07 Vote 906: H R 976: In this 265 to 159 vote the House passed an expansion of the State Children's Health Insurance Program. The bill also passed the Senate by a vote of 68 to 31. The bill increases total funding for the program to $60 billion over the next five years and provides health insurance for 9 million currently uninsured American children. The $7 billion yearly expansions were a major sticking point for the White House and ultimately lead to the fourth presidential veto from the Bush administration. The measure is a key agenda item for the Democratic majority in Congress, and Democratic leaders have vowed to push for a veto override, which would require a two-thirds vote. White House press secretary Dana Perino criticized Democrats for sending the president a bill she said they knew would be dead on arrival. “They made their political point,” Perino said. The White House contended that the 61-cent increase in the federal tobacco tax would not be able to recoup the required funds needed to fund the bill. White House officials also argued the measure would push millions of children already covered by private health insurance into publicly financed health care program
7/12/07 Vote 624: H R 2956: This bill would require the president to begin reducing the number of U.S. troops serving in Iraq 120 days after its enactment and would require most troops to be withdrawn by April 1, 2008. The bill also states that the 2002 congressional authorization for the Iraq war only authorized the president use force to confront an Iraqi government that threatened the United States. The measure says that the new Iraqi government is not a threat and that it "now be responsible for Iraq's future course." Language in the bill requires the president to submit a "comprehensive strategy" for Iraq to certain congressional committees by January 1, 2008 and requires him to update that strategy again in July, 2008 and every 90 days thereafter. The bill passed the House on July 12 by a vote of 223 to 201. President Bush has promised to veto any bill that sets a deadline for troop withdrawal.
so thats why i am careful when looking at voting records, it can be complicated... without scanning all of Obama's votes, i do know that he has been consistently ranked as the most "liberal" senator as far as voting record goes, from all of the folks that rank that type of thing... of course, being the most liberal member of the senate will not satisfy most hard line lefty's nor will it be as progressive as i would like... but he is on the rioght side of a MAJORITY of issues for me, not ALL, but MOST... there is no candidate that will satisfy me or anyone else on every issue
Gonzalez raises an interesting concern in the piece from the OP:
"Now Obama explains his vote by saying the amendment was poorly written or set the ceiling too high. His explanation isn’t credible as Obama offered no lower number as an alternative, and didn’t put forward his own amendment clarifying whatever language he found objectionable.
Why wouldn’t Obama have voted to create the first federal ceiling on predatory credit card interest rates, particularly as he calls himself a champion of the poor and middle classes?"
So why not put forward his own amendment? Could it be because of his supporters inside the financial and banking industry who happen to be quite guilty of predatory lending? Naaah....couldn't be.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I really don't understand your point here. We are talking about actual votes cast here.
But here's Obama's list
http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490
and compare with Kucinich
http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=318
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Can you imagine a 30% interest rate on a credit card? I would have voted against that legislation too. As to why he didn't start his own with a lower cap, I don't know the answer. It's a fair question, but you're speculating about the answer being due to his supporters inside the financial and banking industry.
That I am and I don't believe he's going be saying that if it were true, do you?
Do you think Bush is gonna come out and say we went to war for oil?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Of course not, but it's a totally different question about why Obama didn't push his own legislation for a lower cc cap and why Bush started an unnecessary war based on lies that will end up killing hundreds of thousands of people, cost America trillions of dollars, and go down as the biggest foreign policy blunder in history.
Obviously.
The point was, people have to speculate when we know that the possible truth is not going to be owned up to.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I know the point, but your comparison to Bush and the war is unfair and very negative. Ed Rendell, who is a superdelegate for Hillary, said that Obama has done something in bringing people together that no one else in his generation has ever done. And he's old. Bush has divided not only the country, but the world. We had universal support after 9/11, now we're hated and loathed because of Iraq.
Seems you have a lot of animosity toward Obama.
Christ.
I not comparing the two actions...I was just pointing out how one has to speculate at times. Jeez. I was trying to use an exmaple that many here have had to speculate....that's it.
Don't try to make a point where there isn't one to be made.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
isn't a cap of 30% better than no cap at all???
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
So you're looking at Obama's voting record objectively? Please. You compare Bush and the lies with starting the war to Obama not voting for a cc cap bill because the interest rate was too high. The two don't belong in the same sentence.
I just see a lot of bias in your (constant) criticism of Obama. Whatever. It's late. I'm calling it a night.
No. Do you authorize an Iraq spending bill that has a withdraw date of 2020? Well, it's better than not having a timetable. No.
wow, obama didn't vote on quite a number of things, like the first energy act, fisa, real id, childrens health insurance program, iraq withdrawl amendment, national defense authorization act, stuff on guantanamo, Appropriations for the Departments of Labor, Health and Human Services, Education, and Related Agencies, intelligence authorization act, expressing the sense of the senate on federalism in iraq, implementing the 9/11 commission's recommendations......he makes dennis look like an a+ student so your poiint is kinda lost, m2h...
but, i guess obama must be awful busy on his almost non-stop media tour he's been on for a few years
and yes, records has A LOT to do w/ who you should vote for, not what's said at pep rallies, to think otherwise is ridiculous
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
then put forth another one w/ a timetable to your pleasing
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i guess it's just a coincidence that a large sector of his donations come from credit card lobbyists, eh?
she made it quite clear she wasn't comparing bush and obama or the cc cap and the war, she was giving an example of where ppl had to speculate b/c the person in question would never actually own up to it. no comparison, it must be late for you to keep missing her saying that
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Originally Posted by my2hands
"I hope Iowans will caucus for me as their first choice ... because of my singular positions on the war, on health care and trade," Kucinich said. "But in those caucus locations where my support doesn't reach the necessary threshold, I strongly encourage all of my supporters to make Barack Obama their second choice."
Dennis Kucinch
That decision was NOT one of support for Obama.
There was a lot more too it in his original statement that was taken from.
Kucinich always does his research, thats all he does 24/7, that is his life of service, he's one of three that actually read the patriot act before voting on it.
I know you know, you know. . . but I just wanted to clarify it for everyone. 8o)
HR676 is Universal, Single Payer, Not for Profit, Health Care.
'Health Care' being the key word. All of the other candidates want to give some or most of us 'Health Insurance'.
HR676 takes the insurance companies out of the picture, Saving us 30% of every dollar that goes toward health insurance.
HR 676 is in legislative form, it just has to be voted on and we have it! If your representatives didn't, put someone in there that will.
The only reason Kucinich and Nader have so far been unsuccessful in their presidential aspirations is because no one knows anything about them.
The Democratic Party, big money/insurance companies are responsible for these crimes.
Nader is kept off the State ballots so you can't even vote for him.
Kucinich is taken out of the debates by silly qualifications immediately before: 1. New Hampshire 2. Iowa 3. Nevada primary's/caucuses . . . . . . .was there another one?
Not to mention certain green party members joining in on that stoning of DJK.
The majority of Americans overwhelming support the issues they stand for.
The corporate media and other squirrelly folk with a semi-interest in jaded politics force it in our ears that there is no hope for what the majority of us want because it appears to be to deep and dark and out of reach.
Thats why We have to be there As Citizens to turn on the light of truth within ourselves and everyone around us.
Because once the spark is within us that cannot be extinguished all of this will be attainable if we simply stand up together and demand it as a people.
http://www.dennis4president.com/go/resources/issues-library/