Sorry, but that's how it comes across. There's no debate about how you feel personally and what you do in your own life ... obviously, if you and your partner don't like this pill for whatever reason, you won't use it. The debate is about public policy, for or against this being available over the counter. And it certainly does come across as moralizing when you go on and on about the irresponsibility of using birth control after, rather than prior to, sex. And for someone who admits to making many mistakes (as we all have), it seems a bit harsh to say pregnancy and a lifetime of unwanted parenthood is what someone deserves for making what is, in your view, a poor decision.
It just astounds me that anyone could be opposed to a safe, effective method of birth control that will prevent abortions, not to mention providing peace of mind to millions of women. I was never promiscous, but I can think of a few times when this pill would have taken a load off my mind, to say the least. And if I had been promiscous, so what? It's no one's business but my own.
i get the impression that anyone who disagrees with you would come across as, and be accused of, moralizing. Sorry, but thats how it comes across. Technically, i could accuse you of the same thing. i won't. First of all, i don't believe it. Secondly, for someone as disliked as i am around here to accuse someone of your high esteem of ANYTHING would be asking for trouble.
i've never said anyone deserves an unwanted pregnancy. i've only said that people should be responsible, and that this pill is, IMO, a copout on responsibility. i stand by that assessment. i also never suggested it shouldn't be available either OTC or otherwise. Personally, i don't really care.
take care
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
i've never said anyone deserves an unwanted pregnancy. i've only said that people should be responsible, and that this pill is, IMO, a copout on responsibility. i stand by that assessment. i also never suggested it shouldn't be available either OTC or otherwise. Personally, i don't really care.
take care
How is Plan B a copout? What responsibility does the person have that is being "copped out" on?
Am I "copping out" on my moral obligation to suffer if I take a couple of Tylenol to relieve a headache after I drank too much the night before?
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
Same as you having the choice after filling her with sperm that you may want her to get an abortion. See the problem starts when you insert your penis into the vagina and both of you are idiots. Plain and simple.
As soon as I read this, I thought of that part in Singles when Steve's mom took him to the doctor to learn about sex. It was something like this:
doctor: the father inserts his penis into the mother's vagina, and what comes out is sperm [Steve nods while sitting next to mom]
later at the playground, little Steve tells his friends: then the man keeps moving until something squirts out of his penis!
kid 1: What?
kid 2: Yeah, what comes out?
Steve: Spam!
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Then he should stick to porno mags where nobody can get pregnant. I am not one to boast about any kind of church but at least they try with planned parenting. As in if you are going to knock boots, you "both" may have a responsibility on your hands for the rest of your mortal lives.
So if some chick told you to have a vasectomy before having sex so she could ensure not getting pregnant that might just fly, eh. Same as you having the choice after filling her with sperm that you may want her to get an abortion. See the problem starts when you insert your penis into the vagina and both of you are idiots. Plain and simple.
This is ludicous, when this is a thread that is celebrating additional choice. Yet here you are saying the one and only choice a man should have is to have sex or not. Pro choice, my ass.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
As soon as I read this, I thought of that part in Singles when Steve's mom took him to the doctor to learn about sex. It was something like this:
doctor: the father inserts his penis into the mother's vagina, and what comes out is sperm [Steve nods while sitting next to mom]
later at the playground, little Steve tells his friends: then the man keeps moving until something squirts out of his penis!
kid 1: What?
kid 2: Yeah, what comes out?
Steve: Spam!
I also liked that Steve drew inspiration in the bedroom from former Seattle Sonics legend Xavier McDaniels: "Don't cum yet, Steve!"
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
i get the impression that anyone who disagrees with you would come across as, and be accused of, moralizing. Sorry, but thats how it comes across. Technically, i could accuse you of the same thing. i won't. First of all, i don't believe it. Secondly, for someone as disliked as i am around here to accuse someone of your high esteem of ANYTHING would be asking for trouble.
i've never said anyone deserves an unwanted pregnancy. i've only said that people should be responsible, and that this pill is, IMO, a copout on responsibility. i stand by that assessment. i also never suggested it shouldn't be available either OTC or otherwise. Personally, i don't really care.
take care
In that case, we've been arguing over nothing. I'm not interested in changing anyone's opinion on these pills themselves, only on whether or not they should be freely available. If you don't care one way or another, then we have no disagreement.
Personally, I'm not wild about sex outside of committed relationships. I think that people should take their sexuality seriously, treat themselves and their partners with the utmost respect, and take every possible precaution to avoid bringing an unwanted life into the world. I think planning ahead is a good idea. I also recognize that not everyone views sex the same way I do, and that's fine. If someone else wants to go at it like a cat in heat, who am I to say they shouldn't?
And of course, people do stupid things every day. If we can safely eliminate some of the more disastrous consequences of those stupid things, I'm all for it. They're going to do them anyway, regardless of what you or I might think, so if we can have fewer unwanted kids and fewer abortions, that's a good thing in my book.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
He wore a condom, he was responsible. Now what? If we are going to hold him fiscally responsible then he should be given the same type of choices given a woman in the name of equality. obviously he can't have the same choices but it woul dbe very easy to give a man the choice to walk away with no parental rights or obligations including financial responsibilities within the first trimester of preganancy, or even within the first three days of sex. Currently the is no equality or semblence of fairness or balance in the current legislation. It is up to the woman to decide to carry on with a possible preganacy, then up to the woman to decide to carry on with a pregnancy, then up to a woman to decide to name the father on the birth certificate. But a man has to prove he's not the father (no presumption of innocence here) to not pay child support, but a mother does not need to prove paternity to apply to the courts for child support. A man also is not given any automatic parental rights by being a father, where as a woman is given full parental rights just for being female. The system is so far out of kiliter it is ridiculous.
I agree the legal system sucks. I have seen many a man screwed b/c of the court system. My brother -in- law for one. He and his ex were never married, but she got pregnant. Now she has the baby 5 days more a month than he does. this means she has primary custody. this means he must pay child support to her. In the amount of $500! Are you kidding me. she is making $100 a day on those 5 days. Outrageous.
I think the men also need choices, but I honestly cannot think of how that could be done. It seems to me that you preach and preach that you men need to have choices, but you don't have any ideas either. Im not trying to be mean, just an observation.
In that case, we've been arguing over nothing. I'm not interested in changing anyone's opinion on these pills themselves, only on whether or not they should be freely available. If you don't care one way or another, then we have no disagreement.
Personally, I'm not wild about sex outside of committed relationships. I think that people should take their sexuality seriously, treat themselves and their partners with the utmost respect, and take every possible precaution to avoid bringing an unwanted life into the world. I think planning ahead is a good idea. I also recognize that not everyone views sex the same way I do, and that's fine. If someone else wants to go at it like a cat in heat, who am I to say they shouldn't?
And of course, people do stupid things every day. If we can safely eliminate some of the more disastrous consequences of those stupid things, I'm all for it. They're going to do them anyway, regardless of what you or I might think, so if we can have fewer unwanted kids and fewer abortions, that's a good thing in my book.
Depends, do we want as a society to promote taking responsibility for our actions.
I'd like to know if two 18 year olds have sex, and they use a condom and it breaks... do you think that is irresponsible of them? Should they have the baby even though they can't support and take care of it or want it, is that the responsible thing to do? Is that being responsible for their actions?
I'd like to know if two 18 year olds have sex, and they use a condom and it breaks... do you think that is irresponsible of them? Should they have the baby even though they can't support and take care of it or want it, is that the responsible thing to do? Is that being responsible for their actions?
If that's the case I'd say grabbing some Plan B would be a very responsible thing to do indeed.
Which came first,
the bad idea or me befallen by it?
This is ludicous, when this is a thread that is celebrating additional choice. Yet here you are saying the one and only choice a man should have is to have sex or not. Pro choice, my ass.
Exactly...I am not sure how "Pro choice" becomes celebrating abortion either. I am prochoice, but antiabortion (at least for me that is), but everyone should have a choice. god forbid for people be free and be responsible for making a choice. If you don't like the choice someone makes then who really cares. It was not your choice, it was theirs. How does that really effect YOU? (not you that wrote this thread, a more annonamous "you")
Depends, do we want as a society to promote taking responsibility for our actions.
How is using Plan B as a secondary protection against an unwanted pregnancy dodging responsibility? Better yet, who, exactly, does the woman have a responsibility to, other than herself? Does she have some sort of obligation to allow a pregnancy to occur if she has unprotected sex?
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
Depends, do we want as a society to promote taking responsibility for our actions.
This is how I chose when I was "ready." If I could deal witht he consequenses, then I was ready....but looking back I just thought that I was. there was no way I could have raised a child back in the day. so even when we think we are "ready" we could still be wrong
Plan B is not an "easy out", shall we say. It will apparently run anywhere between $25 and $40, which is ridiculous since a whole pack of birth control pills costs less than that. It also causes fairly significant nausea which can lead to vomiting which can lead to loss of the medicine and its effectiveness. To avoid nausea, one can try some anti-nausea medications, but most of them cause profound drowsiness.
This is not something that the average woman is going to want to do all the time. However, it is nice to know that there is a readily-available back-up should she need it.
We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality. - Ayn Rand
Plan B is not an "easy out", shall we say. It will apparently run anywhere between $25 and $40, which is ridiculous since a whole pack of birth control pills costs less than that. It also causes fairly significant nausea which can lead to vomiting which can lead to loss of the medicine and its effectiveness. To avoid nausea, one can try some anti-nausea medications, but most of them cause profound drowsiness.
This is not something that the average woman is going to want to do all the time. However, it is nice to know that there is a readily-available back-up should she need it.
It doesn't cause nausea for everyone. Like anything else, it may affect people differently. One thing that helps is doing it in 2 doses, not one (two pills 12 hours apart). Also like you said, you could take additional nausea aids if you want. And I mean, shouldn't women deserve to feel bad for being in this situation anyway? (totally kidding with that last question.)
Also, many people do pay $30 for usual OCPs--not that I'm saying that is acceptable. I had a feeling the OTC Plan B would be expensive.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
How is using Plan B as a secondary protection against an unwanted pregnancy dodging responsibility? Better yet, who, exactly, does the woman have a responsibility to, other than herself? Does she have some sort of obligation to allow a pregnancy to occur if she has unprotected sex?
good question.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'd like to know if two 18 year olds have sex, and they use a condom and it breaks... do you think that is irresponsible of them? Should they have the baby even though they can't support and take care of it or want it, is that the responsible thing to do? Is that being responsible for their actions?
Being in a position to manage unintended but foreseeable outcomes of your actions is part of being responsible.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
There's no obligation to the unborn child, since Plan B doesn't work if you're already pregnant. I guess it's your obligation to Yahweh or God or Allah or L. Ron Hubbard, who knows?
Of course, if it is a religious obligation/responsibility, then people really shouldn't push it on others who don't share the same religious beliefs...
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
My opinion. Life starts at conception. Any method of terminating that life is murder. I don't believe in god so I don't have any religious foundation to my beliefs. However, since murder(abortion) is legal I see no reason why the easiest, cheapest, and safest methods of murder should not be available. I will continue to vote for people who are in support of making all forms of abortion illegal.
How is using Plan B as a secondary protection against an unwanted pregnancy dodging responsibility? Better yet, who, exactly, does the woman have a responsibility to, other than herself? Does she have some sort of obligation to allow a pregnancy to occur if she has unprotected sex?
You have me wrong. I'm not against Plan B in any way.
As to who the woman has a responsibility to, I thought that would be obvious. If men are going to be held fiscally responsible for the child even when that is not the man's decision, then same level of responsibility should be used for the woman. Fiscally responsible for the child with abortion noot being an option.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Roll'n roll'n roll'n, keep this train a roll'n......
I love it! could someone tell me why this topic gets so many responses everytime it is on here. you would think we would get tired of discussing it?
It cuts right to the root of the abortion debate....obviously (for me anyway) there is no freakin way what's lodged in a womans tubes (I know I have this wrong...sorry ladies) the night after sex resembles in any form a human being that has rights. The exxxxtrrreeeme right though doesn't see it that way...its a child at conception...hence us pro choicers are rubbing this in pro lifers noses...thats all.
Funny thing is having Pro Lifers come up with some type of justification other than "Its in the Bible" but they know that won't fly. Funny stuff....
You have me wrong. I'm not against Plan B in any way.
As to who the woman has a responsibility to, I thought that would be obvious. If men are going to be held fiscally responsible for the child even when that is not the man's decision, then same level of responsibility should be used for the woman. Fiscally responsible for the child with abortion noot being an option.
I understand men wanting to have the rights...and being man can just imagine...impregnating a woman and wanting the baby..but she doesn't ....but ultimately its her body. Conversely if she wants the baby but the man doesn't...again its her body....and you know as a man..once you do it...you accepted these terms. This is how it currently is and its the only and I think best way.
I understand men wanting to have the rights...and being man can just imagine...impregnating a woman and wanting the baby..but she doesn't ....but ultimately its her body. Conversely if she wants the baby but the man doesn't...again its her body....and you know as a man..once you do it...you accepted these terms. This is how it currently is and its the only and I think best way.
To dismiss discussion of the topic as "This is how it currently is" seems more than a little closeminded. I can only imagine if this was the tact taken during the fight for civil rights. It is time to change those terms. As society progresses we should be looking at ways to address inequalities and inequities between the sexes, for the betterment of all.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Comments
i get the impression that anyone who disagrees with you would come across as, and be accused of, moralizing. Sorry, but thats how it comes across. Technically, i could accuse you of the same thing. i won't. First of all, i don't believe it. Secondly, for someone as disliked as i am around here to accuse someone of your high esteem of ANYTHING would be asking for trouble.
i've never said anyone deserves an unwanted pregnancy. i've only said that people should be responsible, and that this pill is, IMO, a copout on responsibility. i stand by that assessment. i also never suggested it shouldn't be available either OTC or otherwise. Personally, i don't really care.
take care
How is Plan B a copout? What responsibility does the person have that is being "copped out" on?
Am I "copping out" on my moral obligation to suffer if I take a couple of Tylenol to relieve a headache after I drank too much the night before?
As soon as I read this, I thought of that part in Singles when Steve's mom took him to the doctor to learn about sex. It was something like this:
doctor: the father inserts his penis into the mother's vagina, and what comes out is sperm [Steve nods while sitting next to mom]
later at the playground, little Steve tells his friends: then the man keeps moving until something squirts out of his penis!
kid 1: What?
kid 2: Yeah, what comes out?
Steve: Spam!
cross the river to the eastside
i've already addressed these things, and, have been put in my place and accused of moralizing. Pardon me if i politely decline response.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I also liked that Steve drew inspiration in the bedroom from former Seattle Sonics legend Xavier McDaniels: "Don't cum yet, Steve!"
naděje umírá poslední
Personally, I'm not wild about sex outside of committed relationships. I think that people should take their sexuality seriously, treat themselves and their partners with the utmost respect, and take every possible precaution to avoid bringing an unwanted life into the world. I think planning ahead is a good idea. I also recognize that not everyone views sex the same way I do, and that's fine. If someone else wants to go at it like a cat in heat, who am I to say they shouldn't?
And of course, people do stupid things every day. If we can safely eliminate some of the more disastrous consequences of those stupid things, I'm all for it. They're going to do them anyway, regardless of what you or I might think, so if we can have fewer unwanted kids and fewer abortions, that's a good thing in my book.
I agree the legal system sucks. I have seen many a man screwed b/c of the court system. My brother -in- law for one. He and his ex were never married, but she got pregnant. Now she has the baby 5 days more a month than he does. this means she has primary custody. this means he must pay child support to her. In the amount of $500! Are you kidding me. she is making $100 a day on those 5 days. Outrageous.
I think the men also need choices, but I honestly cannot think of how that could be done. It seems to me that you preach and preach that you men need to have choices, but you don't have any ideas either. Im not trying to be mean, just an observation.
I agree with you (most of it)
naděje umírá poslední
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I'd like to know if two 18 year olds have sex, and they use a condom and it breaks... do you think that is irresponsible of them? Should they have the baby even though they can't support and take care of it or want it, is that the responsible thing to do? Is that being responsible for their actions?
naděje umírá poslední
If that's the case I'd say grabbing some Plan B would be a very responsible thing to do indeed.
the bad idea or me befallen by it?
Exactly...I am not sure how "Pro choice" becomes celebrating abortion either. I am prochoice, but antiabortion (at least for me that is), but everyone should have a choice. god forbid for people be free and be responsible for making a choice. If you don't like the choice someone makes then who really cares. It was not your choice, it was theirs. How does that really effect YOU? (not you that wrote this thread, a more annonamous "you")
How is using Plan B as a secondary protection against an unwanted pregnancy dodging responsibility? Better yet, who, exactly, does the woman have a responsibility to, other than herself? Does she have some sort of obligation to allow a pregnancy to occur if she has unprotected sex?
This is how I chose when I was "ready." If I could deal witht he consequenses, then I was ready....but looking back I just thought that I was. there was no way I could have raised a child back in the day. so even when we think we are "ready" we could still be wrong
I love it! could someone tell me why this topic gets so many responses everytime it is on here. you would think we would get tired of discussing it?
This is not something that the average woman is going to want to do all the time. However, it is nice to know that there is a readily-available back-up should she need it.
It doesn't cause nausea for everyone. Like anything else, it may affect people differently. One thing that helps is doing it in 2 doses, not one (two pills 12 hours apart). Also like you said, you could take additional nausea aids if you want. And I mean, shouldn't women deserve to feel bad for being in this situation anyway? (totally kidding with that last question.)
Also, many people do pay $30 for usual OCPs--not that I'm saying that is acceptable. I had a feeling the OTC Plan B would be expensive.
cross the river to the eastside
good question.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
There's no obligation to the unborn child, since Plan B doesn't work if you're already pregnant. I guess it's your obligation to Yahweh or God or Allah or L. Ron Hubbard, who knows?
Of course, if it is a religious obligation/responsibility, then people really shouldn't push it on others who don't share the same religious beliefs...
naděje umírá poslední
As to who the woman has a responsibility to, I thought that would be obvious. If men are going to be held fiscally responsible for the child even when that is not the man's decision, then same level of responsibility should be used for the woman. Fiscally responsible for the child with abortion noot being an option.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
It cuts right to the root of the abortion debate....obviously (for me anyway) there is no freakin way what's lodged in a womans tubes (I know I have this wrong...sorry ladies) the night after sex resembles in any form a human being that has rights. The exxxxtrrreeeme right though doesn't see it that way...its a child at conception...hence us pro choicers are rubbing this in pro lifers noses...thats all.
Funny thing is having Pro Lifers come up with some type of justification other than "Its in the Bible" but they know that won't fly. Funny stuff....
I understand men wanting to have the rights...and being man can just imagine...impregnating a woman and wanting the baby..but she doesn't ....but ultimately its her body. Conversely if she wants the baby but the man doesn't...again its her body....and you know as a man..once you do it...you accepted these terms. This is how it currently is and its the only and I think best way.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley