I would agree with you. Atheists have faith in reason, but that is all they have faith in. They deny the possibility that what is not reasonable to them could exist.
The essence of God is beyond the reason of man; therefore, atheists will never know Him because they have faith in nothing but the reason of man.
This level of pride in man's reason is incredibly interesting to me. How can one be so proud of knowing so little about the universe?
we agree a little here. i cannot see or hold the wind yet i believe it exists because of the reaction it causes with other forces of nature.
i can believe God exists even though i cannot see or hold him because of the reaction he/she causes with other forces of nature. that force being the belief 87% of man has and has had on her/his existence for thousands of years.
did i express that right?
I'm not preaching Atheism. I'm just defending my right to morals without God.
as a catholic may defend their right to believe? if you state examples of your morals; i will reference them to their roots in religion.
do your morals dictate that you should not steal? the root of this morality is religiously based.
do your morals dictate you should not kill? my answer is the same.
i believe that if one believes that there is nothingness after death; that's what you will receive upon death. if you believe there is life after death; you will receive life after death.
we agree a little here. i cannot see or hold the wind yet i believe it exists because of the reaction it causes with other forces of nature.
i can believe God exists even though i cannot see or hold him because of the reaction he/she causes with other forces of nature. that force being the belief 87% of man has and has had on her/his existence for thousands of years.
did i express that right?
What about stuff that people widely believe that isn't true?
That logic serves to negate Christianity by the existence of Islam. Far more people world-wide are Muslims than Christians.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
as a catholic may defend their right to believe? if you state examples of your morals; i will reference them to their roots in religion.
do your morals dictate that you should not steal? the root of this morality is religiously based.
do your morals dictate you should not kill? my answer is the same.
i believe that if one believes that there is nothingness after death; that's what you will receive upon death. if you believe there is life after death; you will receive life after death.
If people needed religious morality to not kill. Our species would not have existed long enough for Jesus to be born.
I do not kill simply because I do not want to be killed. The same reason I don't steal. I recognize all humans as being equal value and therefor my need is no greater than any other's. It's pretty straight forward logic.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I would agree with you. Atheists have faith in reason, but that is all they have faith in. They deny the possibility that what is not reasonable to them could exist.
The essence of God is beyond the reason of man; therefore, atheists will never know Him because they have faith in nothing but the reason of man.
This level of pride in man's reason is incredibly interesting to me. How can one be so proud of knowing so little about the universe?
why do you say that 'the essence of God' is beyond the reason of Man? why is that believers say this so often. why do they tell me that i just don't understand or can not comprehend God? that God is beyond comprehension and therefore i must have faith. that all i need to do is give myself over to the possibility and have faith in God. that just sounds an awful like hope.
but i guess you're correct in a way cause in order to give yourself over to any faith one must be at least willing to abandon all logic and scientific reasoning.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
If people needed religious morality to not kill. Our species would not have existed long enough for Jesus to be born.
I do not kill simply because I do not want to be killed. The same reason I don't steal. I recognize all humans as being equal value and therefor my need is no greater than any other's. It's pretty straight forward logic.
but people do kill and we still exist. every lifeform kills and is killed. it is primal instinct. the genes that we share with all other life (which darwin basis his theory) are the three basic necessities of life.
1) eat
2) protect itself from preditors
3) reproduction
if you do not kill; you are going against primal instincts which goes beyond simple logic.
but people do kill and we still exist. every lifeform kills and is killed. it is primal instinct. the genes that we share with all other life (which darwin basis his theory) are the three basic necessities of life.
1) eat
2) protect itself from preditors
3) reproduction
if you do not kill; you are going against primal instincts which goes beyond simple logic.
Animals kill for very specific reasons. Not just for fun.
There has been plenty of killing by people that are Christians or follow other religions. Only 1% of the jail population in the USA are Atheists. Only 10% of the USA population are Atheists. The morals of religion don't even work for religious people. People get their morals from experience, not religion.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
athiesm is a form of religion. a true athiest is indifferent to God which means God does not enter your thoughts. if so; why are you talking about God? a catholic may not believe in allah. this only means his beliefs are different. satanism is a religion too. if you don't believe in God; that is your belief; which makes it a religion.
Atheism is not a form of religion.
I don't belief in god. You see it as this:
There's a concept 'god' and I choose not to believe in it. (at least that's what I think, correct me if I'm wrong)
I see it as this:
There is nothing. So there's nothing to belief in or even to deny.
However, people believe in god and I think it's very interesting, I'm interested in why they believe, what exactly it is they believe. Some interpretations of god are very beautiful, my teacher was a believer and he told me stories about when he saw god in flowers, children laughing... very beautifully told... But I don't have it ...
I have been an Athiest all my life, despite my mother being a devout christian (although she probably wouldn't call it that) and also having to go to church during my pre-teen years. I do not believe in god, never have and never will. Now, becuase I never accepted faith within the lord, I am supposed to be a morality-drained heathen? I think not.
I would die to save my friends. I would give my life in order to save a complete stranger. I don't lie, I don't cheat on people, I've never stolen anything in my life, I don't drink alcohol and I am not quick to anger in any situation. I have a very moralistic view of relationships, and I am unprejudiced toward any person, regardless of anything. I don't judge people for their actions and I don't talk down to people. I've never met a person in my life with whom I didn't get along.
The only thing I don't tolerate is religious people trying to push their beliefs on me, and that is exactly what these people are trying to do, push you to accept a doctrine that you don't believe. (Reference to the intial post that started this thread.) People who have their religious beliefs and discuss them with those who are interested are fine by me, as long as they don't feel they have to convert me, or 'save' my soul from eternal damnation. There is no such thing as an afterlife. This one is all we get.
"this one, anytime I say love if you wanna say love, uh, say it, and if you say it you might as well say it loud, and if you don't feel like sayin' it, don't say it, but if you feel it, certainly say it..."
NOTE: Everything I write in the P,P&M section are intended to be songs, not poetry.
My atheist brain brought me to the determination that eternal life sucks.
To stop existing is the most peaceful thing that could happen.
People always want to know where they go when they die, but should also ask where they were before they were born.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Animals kill for very specific reasons. Not just for fun.
There has been plenty of killing by people that are Christians or follow other religions. Only 1% of the jail population in the USA are Atheists. Only 10% of the USA population are Atheists. The morals of religion don't even work for religious people. People get their morals from experience, not religion.
maybe serial killers kill for fun; but people kill for reason. be it drugs; money for food; and the such. i've personally seen animals kill out of jealousy because another is trying to steal their mate. they don't recognise it as jelousy but it is by deffinition. current studies show 17% of the us population as athiests.
i don't know about the 1% but many are jailed for crimes not associated with morallity. we were given marajuana as both a medicine and mind expander. i don't see it as immoral when it was made illegal after prohibition so J Edgar's men had something to do. many crimes are not a question of morallity but politics.
maybe serial killers kill for fun; but people kill for reason. be it drugs; money for food; and the such. i've personally seen animals kill out of jealousy because another is trying to steal their mate. they don't recognise it as jelousy but it is by deffinition. current studies show 17% of the us population as athiests.
i don't know about the 1% but many are jailed for crimes not associated with morallity. we were given marajuana as both a medicine and mind expander. i don't see it as immoral when it was made illegal after prohibition so J Edgar's men had something to do. many crimes are not a question of morallity but politics.
But morality trumps politics in a religious mind, does it not?
I have morals independent of religion. Such as, I should not splash pedestrians with my car. I didn't read that in the bible.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
as a catholic may defend their right to believe? if you state examples of your morals; i will reference them to their roots in religion.
do your morals dictate that you should not steal? the root of this morality is religiously based.
do your morals dictate you should not kill? my answer is the same.
How do you claim to know that the roots of morality are in religion?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
i mean that usually the get their sense of morality from inside them. for instance. Ask a theist why is murder wrong and they say it's wrong for 2 reasons they feel it is wrong and the structure from which they form their morals says it's wrong (external validation). An atheist may say, murder is wrong b/c "I" feel it is wrong. So maybe internal may have been a better phrase than self centered.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
My atheist brain brought me to the determination that eternal life sucks.
To stop existing is the most peaceful thing that could happen.
People always want to know where they go when they die, but should also ask where they were before they were born.
my opinions stem from having died and knowing what comes next. the brain lives on and the nothingness i speak of can be compared to solitary confinement.
i don't know of anyone who doesn't question where they came from. if darwin was right; where did the notion of God come from? why did it become so popular and why has a fad lasted thousands of years? because of the size and make up of it's wings compared to the size and shape of it's body; a bee cannot fly under scientific fact. yet they do.
I just spoke with someone from a scout organisation who told me they don't accept people with no faith as "they don't have morals". Personally I think this is discriminatory and totally bullshit because who are faith-based people to say they are the only ones with morals?
Personally whenever I see a “religious-ista” coming I run a mile because I don’t trust them, or any possible agenda they might have. Religions might have a moral code to live by but anyone can have that. You don’t have to be religious. Why can’t people see the difference!!
/rant.
Sorry, had to vent!
I agree with you. And everyone that believes morals are a thing only religious people have is in my book a person that doesn't know what they are talking about.
« One man's glory is another man's hell.
You’re on the outside, never bound by such a spell.
Together in the darkness, alone in the light.
I took it upon me to be yours, Timmy,
I’ll lead your angels and demons at play tonight......»
How do you claim to know that the roots of morality are in religion?
i attended a roman catholic college prep and had to take 4 years of theology which included the study of every religion. i'm not saying i'm right; i'm stating my opinion based from this education. i'm not a church goer because i know the flaws of the churchs and churchs are run by man. church does not equal God. knowing God is a state of consiousness. anyone who's practiced transendental meditation can understand this much better. i wish i had the words to explain it better but i'm not that good finding the words. i guess that's why religion has always been such a big mystery.
my opinions stem from having died and knowing what comes next. the brain lives on and the nothingness i speak of can be compared to solitary confinement.
i don't know of anyone who doesn't question where they came from. if darwin was right; where did the notion of God come from? why did it become so popular and why has a fad lasted thousands of years? because of the size and make up of it's wings compared to the size and shape of it's body; a bee cannot fly under scientific fact. yet they do.
The ideas of aliens or multiple gods have been around much longer. Clearly you did not die, because you are here now.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I agree with you. And everyone that believes morals are a thing only religious people have is in my book a person that doesn't know what they are talking about.
and i know devote athiests who find religion when they feel or know death is near. others insist they are athiests but are only rebelling. what you believe today may not be what you believe tomorrow. around 1492 the belief that the world was flat changed suddenly.
and i know devote athiests who find religion when they feel or know death is near. others insist they are athiests but are only rebelling. what you believe today may not be what you believe tomorrow. around 1492 the belief that the world was flat changed suddenly.
I'm sorry, but I don't really see the relationship between this quote and what I wrote.
Still I am happy to know the world is round.:D;)
« One man's glory is another man's hell.
You’re on the outside, never bound by such a spell.
Together in the darkness, alone in the light.
I took it upon me to be yours, Timmy,
I’ll lead your angels and demons at play tonight......»
i had a brain aneurysm burst in my head. i was legally dead. for about 20 minutes. there is no way medically or scientifically that i can be alive.
Not that you know of. Did you spontaneously spring back to life with no internal bleeding?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Not that you know of. Did you spontaneously spring back to life with no internal bleeding?
the internal bleeding was terrible. my last CT scan showed scar tissue to where i should be a vegetable. EEGs show brain damage to where i shouldn't be able to think. pm me your fax and i'll send the surgical report. i don't like doing that but it'll save a lot of back and forth debate here.
the internal bleeding was terrible. my last CT scan showed scar tissue to where i should be a vegetable. EEGs show brain damage to where i shouldn't be able to think. pm me your fax and i'll send the surgical report. i don't like doing that but it'll save a lot of back and forth debate here.
I don't need to see your surgical report. Have you considered that you or your doctors just don't understand how it's possible?
If you believe God created you, and made you dependent on your brain to survive. Then if God was going to save you, wouldn't he have to save your brain? Everything within nature follows laws. There has to be a reason you didn't suffer brain damage and you can only have faith that it was a miracle.
Is it not written that God will never reveal to Man his interactions, that if we were able to prove God's existence then God would no longer exist?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
WOW!!! What a thread! And so many interesting points of view. I do not believe that God exists for me. Having said that I do believe that He (or She people!:)) does exist for many, many people in many different variants around the world. I don't believe that I am any less moral a person because I do not believe. As far as I am concerned I was born with an inherited knowledge of what is right or wrong. It was given to me in my DNA from my parents and they from their parents, just like eye color and hair color and body type. I also learnt moral behaviour from family, friends and the world as I grew up and continue to grow up and I will continue aquiring this knowledge over my life. I think babies are born with the inherent knowledge of what is right or wrong, what it moral and what is immoral. I have no problem with people holding GOD, Allah, Buddha ***insert religious icon here*** as their moral compass. I just find it is unecissary for my life and I have to admit that evangelical religious people who feel the need to convert me to their way of thinking are very distressing to me. I don't have a problem with them holding their beliefs and I wish they would afford me the same courtesy. Many of my friends and family members are moral, religious people of faith. And many very caring and highly moral people in my life are athiests. I love them all. If people, all people, hold love in their hearts and go forward into the world with love in their hearts then we will all be alright. I just can't pick a team!;) I don't like team sports!;)
WOW!!! What a thread! And so many interesting points of view. I do not believe that God exists for me. Having said that I do believe that He (or She people!:)) does exist for many, many people in many different variants around the world. I don't believe that I am any less moral a person because I do not believe. As far as I am concerned I was born with an inherited knowledge of what is right or wrong. It was given to me in my DNA from my parents and they from their parents, just like eye color and hair color and body type. I also learnt moral behaviour from family, friends and the world as I grew up and continue to grow up and I will continue aquiring this knowledge over my life. I think babies are born with the inherent knowledge of what is right or wrong, what it moral and what is immoral. I have no problem with people holding GOD, Allah, Buddha ***insert religious icon here*** as their moral compass. I just find it is unecissary for my life and I have to admit that evangelical religious people who feel the need to convert me to their way of thinking are very distressing to me. I don't have a problem with them holding their beliefs and I wish they would afford me the same courtesy. Many of my friends and family members are moral, religious people of faith. And many very caring and highly moral people in my life are athiests. I love them all. If people, all people, hold love in their hearts and go forward into the world with love in their hearts then we will all be alright. I just can't pick a team!;) I don't like team sports!;)
that's a point i didn't cover. a lot of athiests learn morals from parents that are religious. on the other hand; i know children of athiests who are very religious.
« One man's glory is another man's hell.
You’re on the outside, never bound by such a spell.
Together in the darkness, alone in the light.
I took it upon me to be yours, Timmy,
I’ll lead your angels and demons at play tonight......»
As far as I am concerned I was born with an inherited knowledge of what is right or wrong. It was given to me in my DNA from my parents and they from their parents, just like eye color and hair color and body type.
Do you think that you were born with the knowledge of right and wrong or with an inner voice? I imagined that you meant the second, but then I thought that you might have meant just what you said.
In that case I am a bit surprised. A person is born blank with the ability to learn to tell right from wrong, one doesn't know it at the start.
« One man's glory is another man's hell.
You’re on the outside, never bound by such a spell.
Together in the darkness, alone in the light.
I took it upon me to be yours, Timmy,
I’ll lead your angels and demons at play tonight......»
Comments
we agree a little here. i cannot see or hold the wind yet i believe it exists because of the reaction it causes with other forces of nature.
i can believe God exists even though i cannot see or hold him because of the reaction he/she causes with other forces of nature. that force being the belief 87% of man has and has had on her/his existence for thousands of years.
did i express that right?
as a catholic may defend their right to believe? if you state examples of your morals; i will reference them to their roots in religion.
do your morals dictate that you should not steal? the root of this morality is religiously based.
do your morals dictate you should not kill? my answer is the same.
i believe that if one believes that there is nothingness after death; that's what you will receive upon death. if you believe there is life after death; you will receive life after death.
What about stuff that people widely believe that isn't true?
That logic serves to negate Christianity by the existence of Islam. Far more people world-wide are Muslims than Christians.
If people needed religious morality to not kill. Our species would not have existed long enough for Jesus to be born.
I do not kill simply because I do not want to be killed. The same reason I don't steal. I recognize all humans as being equal value and therefor my need is no greater than any other's. It's pretty straight forward logic.
why do you say that 'the essence of God' is beyond the reason of Man? why is that believers say this so often. why do they tell me that i just don't understand or can not comprehend God? that God is beyond comprehension and therefore i must have faith. that all i need to do is give myself over to the possibility and have faith in God. that just sounds an awful like hope.
but i guess you're correct in a way cause in order to give yourself over to any faith one must be at least willing to abandon all logic and scientific reasoning.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
but people do kill and we still exist. every lifeform kills and is killed. it is primal instinct. the genes that we share with all other life (which darwin basis his theory) are the three basic necessities of life.
1) eat
2) protect itself from preditors
3) reproduction
if you do not kill; you are going against primal instincts which goes beyond simple logic.
I disagree.
naděje umírá poslední
Animals kill for very specific reasons. Not just for fun.
There has been plenty of killing by people that are Christians or follow other religions. Only 1% of the jail population in the USA are Atheists. Only 10% of the USA population are Atheists. The morals of religion don't even work for religious people. People get their morals from experience, not religion.
Atheism is not a form of religion.
I don't belief in god. You see it as this:
There's a concept 'god' and I choose not to believe in it. (at least that's what I think, correct me if I'm wrong)
I see it as this:
There is nothing. So there's nothing to belief in or even to deny.
However, people believe in god and I think it's very interesting, I'm interested in why they believe, what exactly it is they believe. Some interpretations of god are very beautiful, my teacher was a believer and he told me stories about when he saw god in flowers, children laughing... very beautifully told... But I don't have it ...
naděje umírá poslední
I would die to save my friends. I would give my life in order to save a complete stranger. I don't lie, I don't cheat on people, I've never stolen anything in my life, I don't drink alcohol and I am not quick to anger in any situation. I have a very moralistic view of relationships, and I am unprejudiced toward any person, regardless of anything. I don't judge people for their actions and I don't talk down to people. I've never met a person in my life with whom I didn't get along.
The only thing I don't tolerate is religious people trying to push their beliefs on me, and that is exactly what these people are trying to do, push you to accept a doctrine that you don't believe. (Reference to the intial post that started this thread.) People who have their religious beliefs and discuss them with those who are interested are fine by me, as long as they don't feel they have to convert me, or 'save' my soul from eternal damnation. There is no such thing as an afterlife. This one is all we get.
NOTE: Everything I write in the P,P&M section are intended to be songs, not poetry.
To stop existing is the most peaceful thing that could happen.
People always want to know where they go when they die, but should also ask where they were before they were born.
maybe serial killers kill for fun; but people kill for reason. be it drugs; money for food; and the such. i've personally seen animals kill out of jealousy because another is trying to steal their mate. they don't recognise it as jelousy but it is by deffinition. current studies show 17% of the us population as athiests.
i don't know about the 1% but many are jailed for crimes not associated with morallity. we were given marajuana as both a medicine and mind expander. i don't see it as immoral when it was made illegal after prohibition so J Edgar's men had something to do. many crimes are not a question of morallity but politics.
But morality trumps politics in a religious mind, does it not?
I have morals independent of religion. Such as, I should not splash pedestrians with my car. I didn't read that in the bible.
i mean that usually the get their sense of morality from inside them. for instance. Ask a theist why is murder wrong and they say it's wrong for 2 reasons they feel it is wrong and the structure from which they form their morals says it's wrong (external validation). An atheist may say, murder is wrong b/c "I" feel it is wrong. So maybe internal may have been a better phrase than self centered.
my opinions stem from having died and knowing what comes next. the brain lives on and the nothingness i speak of can be compared to solitary confinement.
i don't know of anyone who doesn't question where they came from. if darwin was right; where did the notion of God come from? why did it become so popular and why has a fad lasted thousands of years? because of the size and make up of it's wings compared to the size and shape of it's body; a bee cannot fly under scientific fact. yet they do.
you would
perhaps self centered was the wrong phrasing see my above post.
I agree with you. And everyone that believes morals are a thing only religious people have is in my book a person that doesn't know what they are talking about.
You’re on the outside, never bound by such a spell.
Together in the darkness, alone in the light.
I took it upon me to be yours, Timmy,
I’ll lead your angels and demons at play tonight......»
i attended a roman catholic college prep and had to take 4 years of theology which included the study of every religion. i'm not saying i'm right; i'm stating my opinion based from this education. i'm not a church goer because i know the flaws of the churchs and churchs are run by man. church does not equal God. knowing God is a state of consiousness. anyone who's practiced transendental meditation can understand this much better. i wish i had the words to explain it better but i'm not that good finding the words. i guess that's why religion has always been such a big mystery.
The ideas of aliens or multiple gods have been around much longer. Clearly you did not die, because you are here now.
and i know devote athiests who find religion when they feel or know death is near. others insist they are athiests but are only rebelling. what you believe today may not be what you believe tomorrow. around 1492 the belief that the world was flat changed suddenly.
i had a brain aneurysm burst in my head. i was legally dead. for about 20 minutes. there is no way medically or scientifically that i can be alive.
I'm sorry, but I don't really see the relationship between this quote and what I wrote.
Still I am happy to know the world is round.:D;)
You’re on the outside, never bound by such a spell.
Together in the darkness, alone in the light.
I took it upon me to be yours, Timmy,
I’ll lead your angels and demons at play tonight......»
Not that you know of. Did you spontaneously spring back to life with no internal bleeding?
the internal bleeding was terrible. my last CT scan showed scar tissue to where i should be a vegetable. EEGs show brain damage to where i shouldn't be able to think. pm me your fax and i'll send the surgical report. i don't like doing that but it'll save a lot of back and forth debate here.
I don't need to see your surgical report. Have you considered that you or your doctors just don't understand how it's possible?
If you believe God created you, and made you dependent on your brain to survive. Then if God was going to save you, wouldn't he have to save your brain? Everything within nature follows laws. There has to be a reason you didn't suffer brain damage and you can only have faith that it was a miracle.
Is it not written that God will never reveal to Man his interactions, that if we were able to prove God's existence then God would no longer exist?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
that's a point i didn't cover. a lot of athiests learn morals from parents that are religious. on the other hand; i know children of athiests who are very religious.
Have you seen dogma?:D
You’re on the outside, never bound by such a spell.
Together in the darkness, alone in the light.
I took it upon me to be yours, Timmy,
I’ll lead your angels and demons at play tonight......»
Do you think that you were born with the knowledge of right and wrong or with an inner voice? I imagined that you meant the second, but then I thought that you might have meant just what you said.
In that case I am a bit surprised. A person is born blank with the ability to learn to tell right from wrong, one doesn't know it at the start.
You’re on the outside, never bound by such a spell.
Together in the darkness, alone in the light.
I took it upon me to be yours, Timmy,
I’ll lead your angels and demons at play tonight......»