morals isnt exactly ethics...i think this is the confusion here
Exactly, although one does play a huge role on the basics of the other. Expecially when the argument isn't a moral argument, but rather an argument about the foundation of morals.
sure they hvae morals. They may not exactly mirror other peoples morals but to say that atheists don't have morals would be a reach...they just don't have the same source of morals as other people. It's usually more of a self centered morality rather than an external morality based system.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Because a person that believes logic can be defied by a higher power has no legitimate reason to try and prove the existance of the higher power using a logical debate. It would end up in a conflict of beliefs. In the Christian religion, it would be blasphemous to even accept the possibility that God does not exist.............and what is the point in debating the existance of god if you are not willing to accept the possibility that God does not exist?
I'm not talking about Christianity. Just because it may be paradoxical doesn't make it unethical. If I believe in God, I can still debate with someone who doesn't believe in God. How is that unethical? In fact, why could someone not view it as very ethical, that way both sides can present arguments of their own, and choose what makes most sense to them (logic vs. faith). I don't see this as an issue of "ethics". Just contradictory beliefs.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
sure they hvae morals. ... It's usually more of a self centered morality rather than an external morality based system.
What do you mean by this statement?
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
sure they hvae morals. ... It's usually more of a self centered morality rather than an external morality based system.
What do you mean by this statement?
I've been reading, lately about levels of consciousness and most athiests I know, including the ones on this board, fit what chopitdown is saying here. Although I would certainly question his wording, too. The idea is that there are three basic stages of morality: premoral, moral, and post-moral. Premoral is where the individual is egocentered and does not have a defined morality regarding others. In the "moral" stage, the individual is very centered in the morality that is defined for them from around them from culture, religion, society, etc. In the post-moral or amoral stage one has moved beyond the stages of having no morals, and also beyond having morals defined for them, into a phase of integration and being able to decide for themselves what is and is not moral. And according to Maslow's category of self-actualized people, they also define their own morality, rather than follow the morality predefined from around them, so this is considered a sign of advancement, actually.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I am atheist. I have morals. I don't think they are egocentric.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
No, atheists don't have any morals. We have no way of telling right from wrong. People must have a book of rules and strange stories telling them what they should and shouldn't do.
I think we should have to burn. Man, We're really a piece of shit. It's true I really need to read in a book in wich way I have to live my life. But imagine that I worship God and at the final judgement day there's allah who punish me for bigotrie, fuck.... I choose to live my life as I want it. Humanism, tolerance, socialism, LOVE...
Beavis : Is this Pearl Jam?
Butt-head: This guy makes faces like Eddie Vedder.
Beavis: No, Eddie Vedder makes faces like this guy.
Butt-head: I heard these guys, like, came first and Pearl Jam ripped them off.
Beavis: No, Pearl Jam came first.
Butt-head: Well, they both suck.
I am atheist. I have morals. I don't think they are egocentric.
Yes. I am not against it when someone believes in something. Don't want to tell someone what he as to believe.
Beavis : Is this Pearl Jam?
Butt-head: This guy makes faces like Eddie Vedder.
Beavis: No, Eddie Vedder makes faces like this guy.
Butt-head: I heard these guys, like, came first and Pearl Jam ripped them off.
Beavis: No, Pearl Jam came first.
Butt-head: Well, they both suck.
I just spoke with someone from a scout organisation who told me they don't accept people with no faith as "they don't have morals". Personally I think this is discriminatory and totally bullshit because who are faith-based people to say they are the only ones with morals?
Personally whenever I see a “religious-ista” coming I run a mile because I don’t trust them, or any possible agenda they might have. Religions might have a moral code to live by but anyone can have that. You don’t have to be religious. Why can’t people see the difference!!
/rant.
Sorry, had to vent!
morals are actually religiously based. an athiest has a sense of right and wrong and also law. law is moral based from religion.
Jesus personally asked only 3 things from us. the rest is mans' words.
1) honor my father.
2) love thy neighbour as you love yourself.
3) take care of my children.
morals are actually religiously based. an athiest has a sense of right and wrong and also law. law is moral based from religion.
Jesus personally asked only 3 things from us. the rest is mans' words.
1) honor my father.
2) love thy neighbour as you love yourself.
3) take care of my children.
My morals aren't religiously based. One of my morals is regarding religion. I don't tell people "Some day you will realize the truth and will become atheist." However, just about every Christian I know says "Some day you will realize the truth and recognize God as the creator." Which is demeaning and bigoted to say the least.
People say this crap all the time about how some day everyone else will become as enlightened as they are. I may let a statement like this slip once in a while, but I don't honestly believe that I am anymore enlightened than the next person. We just have different knowledge. While I recognize some of the underlying mechanics of reality, others claim they are more enlightened because they don't think it can be reduced. This is to say that what I know is meaningless.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
My morals aren't religiously based. One of my morals is regarding religion. I don't tell people "Some day you will realize the truth and will become atheist." However, just about every Christian I know says "Some day you will realize the truth and recognize God as the creator." Which is demeaning and bigoted to say the least.
People say this crap all the time about how some day everyone else will become as enlightened as they are. I may let a statement like this slip once in a while, but I don't honestly believe that I am anymore enlightened than the next person. We just have different knowledge. While I recognize some of the underlying mechanics of reality, others claim they are more enlightened because they don't think it can be reduced. This is to say that what I know is meaningless.
athiesm is a form of religion. a true athiest is indifferent to God which means God does not enter your thoughts. if so; why are you talking about God? a catholic may not believe in allah. this only means his beliefs are different. satanism is a religion too. if you don't believe in God; that is your belief; which makes it a religion.
My morals aren't religiously based. One of my morals is regarding religion. I don't tell people "Some day you will realize the truth and will become atheist." However, just about every Christian I know says "Some day you will realize the truth and recognize God as the creator." Which is demeaning and bigoted to say the least.
I don't see it as demeaning and bigoted.
You see, God is something these people truly believe in. As a result, they believe God to be true and for God to be true it means that all creatures will one day recognize God as such. If they didn't think it were so, they wouldn't believe it.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
athiesm is a form of religion. a true athiest is indifferent to God which means God does not enter your thoughts. if so; why are you talking about God? a catholic may not believe in allah. this only means his beliefs are different. satanism is a religion too. if you don't believe in God; that is your belief; which makes it a religion.
Umm, Atheism is not a religion.
Religion requires faith.
God and Allah are the same.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You see, God is something these people truly believe in. As a result, they believe God to be true and for God to be true it means that all creatures will one day recognize God as such. If they didn't think it were so, they wouldn't believe it.
It's ok to believe something. It's something else to project that belief.
I can think "Gee, atheism is the only answer, everyone else is just being dumb."
But to actually tell that to a Christian or a Muslim, that's a different story.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
It's ok to believe something. It's something else to project that belief.
I can think "Gee, atheism is the only answer, everyone else is just being dumb."
But to actually tell that to a Christian or a Muslim, that's a different story.
This is different than believing something like knitting is a fine hobby and trying to get everyone to take it up.
The fact is, they BELIEVE that people are going to hell if they don't have a similar belief. So what you take as pushy or annoying or whatever, they see as doing something very good for you.
You may still find it annoying, but surely it makes a bit of sense when looked at from that angle.
It would be like you had the cure for cancer and were the only one who knew it. Would you keep it to yourself? Would people be annoyed if you tried to give it to them?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
religion is the contemplation of what happens after death. you have FAITH that you are correct and God doesn't exist. you have FAITH in this theory. your BELIEFS are that when you die; there is nothing.
sounds like you have a lot of FAITH in your BELIEFS from your posts.
In my view, all morality comes from God. I don't think an atheist needs to believe this in order to be moral, though. God made the atheist in his image, just as he makes the christian in his image. Plenty of atheists are good people who have strong moral fiber, but this comes from God and not from their own doing.
Salvation is an entirely different issue.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
This is different than believing something like knitting is a fine hobby and trying to get everyone to take it up.
The fact is, they BELIEVE that people are going to hell if they don't have a similar belief. So what you take as pushy or annoying or whatever, they see as doing something very good for you.
You may still find it annoying, but surely it makes a bit of sense when looked at from that angle.
It would be like you had the cure for cancer and were the only one who knew it. Would you keep it to yourself? Would people be annoyed if you tried to give it to them?
hmm, I thought it was wrong to push religion according to the religion.
I'm not going to hell.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
religion is the contemplation of what happens after death. you have FAITH that you are correct and God doesn't exist. you have FAITH in this theory. your BELIEFS are that when you die; there is nothing.
sounds like you have a lot of FAITH in your BELIEFS from your posts.
Uh. No.
See, it's like this, there is no reason for me to believe in God, there is no evidence, so I don't. It's a lack of belief. I believe it's called disbelief.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
hmm, I thought it was wrong to push religion according to the religion.
I'm not going to hell.
Not that I'm aware of.
You may not believe you are going to hell, but someone who is religious believes that you are (or whatever iteration that particular denomination, sect or religion believes). Therefore, the point is they are trying to do something good for you even if you see it differently.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
In my view, all morality comes from God. I don't think an atheist needs to believe this in order to be moral, though. God made the atheist in his image, just as he makes the christian in his image. Plenty of atheists are good people who have strong moral fiber, but this comes from God and not from their own doing.
Salvation is an entirely different issue.
As a Christian you would believe that. As an atheist, I don't.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
religion is the contemplation of what happens after death. you have FAITH that you are correct and God doesn't exist. you have FAITH in this theory. your BELIEFS are that when you die; there is nothing.
sounds like you have a lot of FAITH in your BELIEFS from your posts.
I would agree with you. Atheists have faith in reason, but that is all they have faith in. They deny the possibility that what is not reasonable to them could exist.
The essence of God is beyond the reason of man; therefore, atheists will never know Him because they have faith in nothing but the reason of man.
This level of pride in man's reason is incredibly interesting to me. How can one be so proud of knowing so little about the universe?
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
You may not believe you are going to hell, but someone who is religious believes that you are (or whatever iteration that particular denomination, sect or religion believes). Therefore, the point is they are trying to do something good for you even if you see it differently.
That's why they have churches to sell stuff like that.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I would agree with you. Atheists have faith in reason, but that is all they have faith in. They deny the possibility that what is not reasonable to them could exist.
The essence of God is beyond the reason of man; therefore, atheists will never know Him because they have faith in nothing but the reason of man.
This level of pride in man's reason is incredibly interesting to me. How can one be so proud of knowing so little about the universe?
First Cause is a reason for God. People come to God by their own reason, the same way others come to no God.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
It's ok to believe something. It's something else to project that belief.
I can think "Gee, atheism is the only answer, everyone else is just being dumb."
But to actually tell that to a Christian or a Muslim, that's a different story.
it seems that a lot of people here are PREACHING about athiesm.
when you state your opinion about athiesm; it is no different than someone stating their opinion about God.
are you proposing that only athiests are allowed to express their opinion?
it seems that a lot of people here are PREACHING about athiesm.
when you state your opinion about athiesm; it is no different than someone stating their opinion about God.
are you proposing that only athiests are allowed to express their opinion?
I'm not preaching Atheism. I'm just defending my right to morals without God.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
morals isnt exactly ethics...i think this is the confusion here
Do you still say "getting" someone to believe in God is unethical?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
What do you mean by this statement?
I've been reading, lately about levels of consciousness and most athiests I know, including the ones on this board, fit what chopitdown is saying here. Although I would certainly question his wording, too. The idea is that there are three basic stages of morality: premoral, moral, and post-moral. Premoral is where the individual is egocentered and does not have a defined morality regarding others. In the "moral" stage, the individual is very centered in the morality that is defined for them from around them from culture, religion, society, etc. In the post-moral or amoral stage one has moved beyond the stages of having no morals, and also beyond having morals defined for them, into a phase of integration and being able to decide for themselves what is and is not moral. And according to Maslow's category of self-actualized people, they also define their own morality, rather than follow the morality predefined from around them, so this is considered a sign of advancement, actually.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
lol.. i never said this..
i said getting EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.
EVERYONE
...oh...EVERYONE
is both UNETHICAL...and the motives behind it could very well be NOT MORAL
i think immoral
Butt-head: This guy makes faces like Eddie Vedder.
Beavis: No, Eddie Vedder makes faces like this guy.
Butt-head: I heard these guys, like, came first and Pearl Jam ripped them off.
Beavis: No, Pearl Jam came first.
Butt-head: Well, they both suck.
Butt-head: This guy makes faces like Eddie Vedder.
Beavis: No, Eddie Vedder makes faces like this guy.
Butt-head: I heard these guys, like, came first and Pearl Jam ripped them off.
Beavis: No, Pearl Jam came first.
Butt-head: Well, they both suck.
morals are actually religiously based. an athiest has a sense of right and wrong and also law. law is moral based from religion.
Jesus personally asked only 3 things from us. the rest is mans' words.
1) honor my father.
2) love thy neighbour as you love yourself.
3) take care of my children.
My morals aren't religiously based. One of my morals is regarding religion. I don't tell people "Some day you will realize the truth and will become atheist." However, just about every Christian I know says "Some day you will realize the truth and recognize God as the creator." Which is demeaning and bigoted to say the least.
People say this crap all the time about how some day everyone else will become as enlightened as they are. I may let a statement like this slip once in a while, but I don't honestly believe that I am anymore enlightened than the next person. We just have different knowledge. While I recognize some of the underlying mechanics of reality, others claim they are more enlightened because they don't think it can be reduced. This is to say that what I know is meaningless.
athiesm is a form of religion. a true athiest is indifferent to God which means God does not enter your thoughts. if so; why are you talking about God? a catholic may not believe in allah. this only means his beliefs are different. satanism is a religion too. if you don't believe in God; that is your belief; which makes it a religion.
I don't see it as demeaning and bigoted.
You see, God is something these people truly believe in. As a result, they believe God to be true and for God to be true it means that all creatures will one day recognize God as such. If they didn't think it were so, they wouldn't believe it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Umm, Atheism is not a religion.
Religion requires faith.
God and Allah are the same.
It's ok to believe something. It's something else to project that belief.
I can think "Gee, atheism is the only answer, everyone else is just being dumb."
But to actually tell that to a Christian or a Muslim, that's a different story.
This is different than believing something like knitting is a fine hobby and trying to get everyone to take it up.
The fact is, they BELIEVE that people are going to hell if they don't have a similar belief. So what you take as pushy or annoying or whatever, they see as doing something very good for you.
You may still find it annoying, but surely it makes a bit of sense when looked at from that angle.
It would be like you had the cure for cancer and were the only one who knew it. Would you keep it to yourself? Would people be annoyed if you tried to give it to them?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
religion is the contemplation of what happens after death. you have FAITH that you are correct and God doesn't exist. you have FAITH in this theory. your BELIEFS are that when you die; there is nothing.
sounds like you have a lot of FAITH in your BELIEFS from your posts.
Salvation is an entirely different issue.
-Enoch Powell
hmm, I thought it was wrong to push religion according to the religion.
I'm not going to hell.
Uh. No.
See, it's like this, there is no reason for me to believe in God, there is no evidence, so I don't. It's a lack of belief. I believe it's called disbelief.
Not that I'm aware of.
You may not believe you are going to hell, but someone who is religious believes that you are (or whatever iteration that particular denomination, sect or religion believes). Therefore, the point is they are trying to do something good for you even if you see it differently.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
As a Christian you would believe that. As an atheist, I don't.
I would agree with you. Atheists have faith in reason, but that is all they have faith in. They deny the possibility that what is not reasonable to them could exist.
The essence of God is beyond the reason of man; therefore, atheists will never know Him because they have faith in nothing but the reason of man.
This level of pride in man's reason is incredibly interesting to me. How can one be so proud of knowing so little about the universe?
-Enoch Powell
That's why they have churches to sell stuff like that.
First Cause is a reason for God. People come to God by their own reason, the same way others come to no God.
it seems that a lot of people here are PREACHING about athiesm.
when you state your opinion about athiesm; it is no different than someone stating their opinion about God.
are you proposing that only athiests are allowed to express their opinion?
I'm not preaching Atheism. I'm just defending my right to morals without God.