and fnx is better than it used to be a couple years ago, but it is still pretty crap.
it's better than any other for-profit rock station I've ever heard. they make the best of weak radio music scenes, IMO. They've got some people there that are just ENTRENCHED like Julie Kramer. Very rich history.
If I hear another band that sounds like Johnny Bravo (Greg Brady) I am going to puke! Everything is entirely too soft. The Shins, The Frames...the "LOOK AT ME I'M SENISTIVE" bullshit that everyone is putting out.
Nothing wrong with softer music as long as you mix it up a bit for fucks sakes!
Here are some of my favorites just from last year; some rockin', some not-so-rockin', but all passionate:
ROCKIN'
Clutch - From Beale Street To Oblivion
The Dillinger Escape Plan - Ire Works
Dropkick Murphys - The Meanest Of Times
Pelican - City Of Echoes
Coheed and Cambria - No World For Tomorrow
Porcupine Tree - Fear Of A Blank Planet
NOT SO ROCKIN'
Minus The Bear - Planet Of Ice (best album of the year...)
Radiohead - In Rainbows
Jason Isbell - Sirens Of The Ditch
Aereogramme - My Heart Has A Wish That You Would Not Go
And I second the Twilight Singers recommendation....Twilight Singers, Gutter Twins, Afghan Whigs...it doesn't get much better than Dulli...
Here are some of my favorites just from last year; some rockin', some not-so-rockin', but all passionate:
ROCKIN'
Clutch - From Beale Street To Oblivion
The Dillinger Escape Plan - Ire Works
Dropkick Murphys - The Meanest Of Times
Pelican - City Of Echoes
Coheed and Cambria - No World For Tomorrow
Porcupine Tree - Fear Of A Blank Planet
NOT SO ROCKIN'
Minus The Bear - Planet Of Ice (best album of the year...)
Radiohead - In Rainbows
Jason Isbell - Sirens Of The Ditch
Aereogramme - My Heart Has A Wish That You Would Not Go
And I second the Twilight Singers recommendation....Twilight Singers, Gutter Twins, Afghan Whigs...it doesn't get much better than Dulli...
Good list as usual. There are tons of great bands out there all the time...they're just not always part of some pop movement like grunge. Commercial radio is no longer needed to find good music...all you need to do is search myspace.
Good list as usual. There are tons of great bands out there all the time...they're just not always part of some pop movement like grunge. Commercial radio is no longer needed to find good music...all you need to do is search myspace.
how do you search myspace for music? How can you search for something when you don't know what you're searching for?
oh and as for never listening to the radio, you pretty much have to in the car. well, I do. Not that I drive much, but when I do I'm pretty much listening to the radio.
oh I saw them live last year. I thought it was AWFUL! A few good moments, but the show just dragged on and on.
yeah their newer album is mellower, i really love a lot of their stuff though... when they had jason isbell especially... i heard live at the 40 watt and it was great
yeah their newer album is mellower, i really love a lot of their stuff though... when they had jason isbell especially... i heard live at the 40 watt and it was great
they reminded me of like a southern rock jam band. Not a huge fan of southern rock, and I'm pretty sure I'd rather listen to Ashlee Simpson than a jam band. It would kinda be a tie...but seriously I really have never listened to an album, just went to the show because I heard so many good things.
they reminded me of like a southern rock jam band. Not a huge fan of southern rock, and I'm pretty sure I'd rather listen to Ashlee Simpson than a jam band. It would kinda be a tie...but seriously I really have never listened to an album, just went to the show because I heard so many good things.
you couldnt be more east coast if you tried. explains why you dont like mmj though.
why cant you listen to something else in the car? cars have cd players, tape decks, even if they've only got a radio you can hook your ipod up to that now too. i had plenty of choices as to what to listen to in any car i ever drove. i never listened to the radio unless i was trying to follow a sporting event. hell, how do you even hear ANY music on the radio? all i ever hear is commercials... 15 stations of them.
you couldnt be more east coast if you tried. explains why you dont like mmj though.
why cant you listen to something else in the car? cars have cd players, tape decks, even if they've only got a radio you can hook your ipod up to that now too. i had plenty of choices as to what to listen to in any car i ever drove. i never listened to the radio unless i was trying to follow a sporting event. hell, how do you even hear ANY music on the radio? all i ever hear is commercials... 15 stations of them.
well there's music on the good station I mentioned. I hate the commercials, but there's usually more music than commercials.
My car CD player is dead, but before it was hated lugging CDs in and out of the car, losing jewel cases under the seats, etc. I have an ipod adapter for long trips, and I used that when I lived in NC. But in this area, all the channels I have on my adapter are taken so there's nothing to tune to.
well there's music on the good station I mentioned. I hate the commercials, but there's usually more music than commercials.
My car CD player is dead, but before it was hated lugging CDs in and out of the car, losing jewel cases under the seats, etc. I have an ipod adapter for long trips, and I used that when I lived in NC. But in this area, all the channels I have on my adapter are taken so there's nothing to tune to.
burn copies of a few cd's and leave them in one of those carry cases in the car?
i'd rather listen to an ashlee simpson cd than the radio. it's god awful.
But I always loved radio. It's free, it's easy...I know it's not what it used to be, but it has a special place in my heart .
like alternative eh? wont give up the radio, wont give up the grunge. cant embrace the ipod/satellite, cant embrace indie... you're right, nostalgia and generational factors have nothing to do with your tastes
like alternative eh? wont give up the radio, wont give up the grunge. cant embrace the ipod/satellite, cant embrace indie... you're right, nostalgia and generational factors have nothing to do with your tastes
it's a good thing you winked.
I love my ipod actually. it comes everywhere with me. I plug it into my stereo, I plug it into my alarm clock...
and I've got hundreds of CDs, they're certainly not all grunge .
btw, how is not liking jam bands "east coast"? Have you ever been to vermont???
I love my ipod actually. it comes everywhere with me. I plug it into my stereo, I plug it into my alarm clock...
and I've got hundreds of CDs, they're certainly not all grunge .
btw, how is not liking jam bands "east coast"? Have you ever been to vermont???
vermont isnt the east coast. im talking the seaboard which is basically nothing but a ton of cities that bleed into each other... where only the trendiest, whitest, faux-intellectual rock can be heard. if it's got some soul or some funk or some groove (southern rock, jam bands), it's no good becos it's too hippy/redneck. it's backwoods. like ohio. it's got to be wannabe revolutionary punk derivative crap or self-consciously trendy indie like the strokes, or clap your hands say yeah (both of who i like, but im honest about what they are). god forbid a band encourages white folks to dance (jam bands) or talks about the south like they're not all hillbillies (drive-by truckers, who i dont actually like all that much).
course, i hate most of the south and think they are all ignorant rednecks, but i still love the music. just like i hate gangsta thugs but still love hip hop. just like i hate snooty east coasters but still love some of their artsy bands. the odd exception is i love laid back west coasters, but hate that music.
vermont isnt the east coast. im talking the seaboard which is basically nothing but a ton of cities that bleed into each other... where only the trendiest, whitest, faux-intellectual rock can be heard. if it's got some soul or some funk or some groove (southern rock, jam bands), it's no good becos it's too hippy/redneck. it's backwoods. like ohio. it's got to be wannabe revolutionary punk derivative crap or self-consciously trendy indie like the strokes, or clap your hands say yeah (both of who i like, but im honest about what they are). god forbid a band encourages white folks to dance (jam bands) or talks about the south like they're not all hillbillies (drive-by truckers, who i dont actually like all that much).
course, i hate most of the south and think they are all ignorant rednecks, but i still love the music. just like i hate gangsta thugs but still love hip hop. just like i hate snooty east coasters but still love some of their artsy bands. the odd exception is i love laid back west coasters, but hate that music.
trust me, plenty of people in boston listen to jam bands. it's truly an unfortunate number! they're always playing everywhere! (stupid college kids!) and none of the reasons you list are any of the reasons I don't like jam bands. In fact, the way you describe faux-intellectualism and what not in terms of indie bands is how I think of jam bands. and honestly, I've never met a fan of jam bands who doesn't have a trust fund .
You diss rock bands for "masturbatory solos" and "noodling." God, nothing is more masturbatory than jam bands!
trust me, plenty of people in boston listen to jam bands. it's truly an unfortunate number! they're always playing everywhere! (stupid college kids!) and none of the reasons you list are any of the reasons I don't like jam bands. In fact, the way you describe faux-intellectualism and what not in terms of indie bands is how I think of jam bands. and honestly, I've never met a fan of jam bands who doesn't have a trust fund .
You diss rock bands for "masturbatory solos" and "noodling." God, nothing is more masturbatory than jam bands!
but you can dance during those solos thanks to the bass and drums, especially if you're on acid.
i've heard of the trust fund hippies, but that is an east coast thing. out here in the midwest, most of the ones i know are dirt poor drug-dealing dropouts. so your impression of the jam bands only reinforces why i don't like the east coast.
i've not seen much intellectualism in the jam band circuit. it's all "let's get wasted and have some fun dancing around like fucking idiots." rather than those east coast "we are such serious artists and you must take us seriously becos we are tragically hip and only influenced by super-unknown bands that came before and our music is NOT fun it is an artistic and political statement against the corporate elite structure on behalf of the proletariat that our parents oppressed to give me my trust fund!"
Soulsinging - I am VERY jealous of you seeing Flogging Molly. I saw them last summer at Warped and they put on an awesome show. I tried to get tickets for the Montreal show last night, but it was sold out, as is Rochester. Its a chancy time of year to drive all the way to Rochester. BTW, I *am* a 46 year old mom, seriously, but I love finding new music and get a thrill from a wall of death. I'm a little too old to be IN a circle pit, but it is very energizing to be around and I jump with the best of them. I hate living in the past.
Green Tea Disease, how to find new music. We have mentioned tons of bands in this thread alone. Go to their myspaces and listen to clips, or go to itunes and listen to clips. You might like something - you just have to take a little more responsibility for finding stuff than in the past. And go to Warped (or Lolla, Bamboozle, Coachella, Bonnarro.....) in the summer. I go to shows with my kid. Then, if you find music you like, find out what music THAT band likes. You might like that too.
R.i.p. Rigoberto Alpizar.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
it's better than any other for-profit rock station I've ever heard. they make the best of weak radio music scenes, IMO. They've got some people there that are just ENTRENCHED like Julie Kramer. Very rich history.
we will agree on that. i would rather listen to wfnx over wbcn or waaf, but they all have their terrible moments. i don't get how people sit and listen to the radio at work and hear the same 5 songs 10 times during the work day.
i really don't listen to the radio unless i'm driving around and to be honest i just flip through my presets until i find something that i like - if it is alternative, classic rock, rap, pop, sports radio, whatever.
i would agree with most of the people in this thread though that there is a lot of good, new music out there, it is just not being played on the radio (although fnx has done a good job over the last year) and it is most definitely not on mtv (although they seem to be doing a good job when they have a band be the sidebar music (?) to all the real world and making the band promos for a week - the bad brains of all bands were the one last week).
i went through the random cd buying stage and it just really isn't worth it at all. i just try to check my music blogs every day (and this page too) to see what's good and what sounds interesting and then search out clips or free mp3s or myspace pages or itunes for samples and go from there.
it sounds like to me that you are looking for another foo fighters-esque band and to be honest, you're probably not going to find one because most of the 'straightforward' guitar based popular rock really has really gone the way of crap (in my opinion). just looking at metacritic's top 2007 albums (http://www.metacritic.com/music/bests/2007.shtml) i can see a ton of stuff i would recommend, but very little, if any, that i would categorize in the same style as the foos. it is a rough time for fans of that style of music.
Green Tea Disease, how to find new music. We have mentioned tons of bands in this thread alone. Go to their myspaces and listen to clips, or go to itunes and listen to clips. You might like something - you just have to take a little more responsibility for finding stuff than in the past. And go to Warped (or Lolla, Bamboozle, Coachella, Bonnarro.....) in the summer. I go to shows with my kid. Then, if you find music you like, find out what music THAT band likes. You might like that too.
jane, you beat me to it...except i can't be bothered to go to any of the big festivals and i'm 'only' 30. not that i wouldn't love to go, i would just rather see the bands i want in smaller venues.
i would also recommend the whole thing of checking out who bands you like like. some people on the porch take it a little too close to heart (as if anyone in pearl jam likes someone, then they HAVE to like them too), but more often than not you will like a band that the band you like respects and likes.
Soulsinging - I am VERY jealous of you seeing Flogging Molly. I saw them last summer at Warped and they put on an awesome show. I tried to get tickets for the Montreal show last night, but it was sold out, as is Rochester. Its a chancy time of year to drive all the way to Rochester. BTW, I *am* a 46 year old mom, seriously, but I love finding new music and get a thrill from a wall of death. I'm a little too old to be IN a circle pit, but it is very energizing to be around and I jump with the best of them. I hate living in the past.
Green Tea Disease, how to find new music. We have mentioned tons of bands in this thread alone. Go to their myspaces and listen to clips, or go to itunes and listen to clips. You might like something - you just have to take a little more responsibility for finding stuff than in the past. And go to Warped (or Lolla, Bamboozle, Coachella, Bonnarro.....) in the summer. I go to shows with my kid. Then, if you find music you like, find out what music THAT band likes. You might like that too.
JaneNY is WISE...myspace & festivals are where it's at. Lolla was so good last year. I'm hoping to go again this year. RATM maybe?? Nails???? HMMMM
vermont isnt the east coast. im talking the seaboard which is basically nothing but a ton of cities that bleed into each other... where only the trendiest, whitest, faux-intellectual rock can be heard. if it's got some soul or some funk or some groove (southern rock, jam bands), it's no good becos it's too hippy/redneck. it's backwoods. like ohio. it's got to be wannabe revolutionary punk derivative crap or self-consciously trendy indie like the strokes, or clap your hands say yeah (both of who i like, but im honest about what they are). god forbid a band encourages white folks to dance (jam bands) or talks about the south like they're not all hillbillies (drive-by truckers, who i dont actually like all that much).
course, i hate most of the south and think they are all ignorant rednecks, but i still love the music. just like i hate gangsta thugs but still love hip hop. just like i hate snooty east coasters but still love some of their artsy bands. the odd exception is i love laid back west coasters, but hate that music.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I've lived in New England my whole life and am kinda all over the map with what I listen to (granted it's all rock, but I digress). I see metal, punk, southern rock, blues-rock, prog, etc. and the bands play the same size venue around here as they do in the south, midwest, west coast, etc. Just like what you like, don't get too wrapped up in who else likes it and give up on creating in your head how other pockets of the country perceive it.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I've lived in New England my whole life and am kinda all over the map with what I listen to (granted it's all rock, but I digress). I see metal, punk, southern rock, blues-rock, prog, etc. and the bands play the same size venue around here as they do in the south, midwest, west coast, etc. Just like what you like, don't get too wrapped up in who else likes it and give up on creating in your head how other pockets of the country perceive it.
it's got nothing to do with music actually, i was just poking at her. i just generally find east coasters have an condescending attitude i find annoying... like if it's not on the east coast, it doesn't matter. new yorkers are the worst, but boston is catching up pretty quick.
Soulsinging - I am VERY jealous of you seeing Flogging Molly. I saw them last summer at Warped and they put on an awesome show. I tried to get tickets for the Montreal show last night, but it was sold out, as is Rochester. Its a chancy time of year to drive all the way to Rochester. BTW, I *am* a 46 year old mom, seriously, but I love finding new music and get a thrill from a wall of death. I'm a little too old to be IN a circle pit, but it is very energizing to be around and I jump with the best of them. I hate living in the past.
Green Tea Disease, how to find new music. We have mentioned tons of bands in this thread alone. Go to their myspaces and listen to clips, or go to itunes and listen to clips. You might like something - you just have to take a little more responsibility for finding stuff than in the past. And go to Warped (or Lolla, Bamboozle, Coachella, Bonnarro.....) in the summer. I go to shows with my kid. Then, if you find music you like, find out what music THAT band likes. You might like that too.
they were excellent i didnt get in the pit either. i just dont have the energy! i only dropped the age and other things becos she acted so appalled and uppity at the thought of smoking a joint. it was more a poorly formed shot at her prudishness than a real dismissal of age
it's got nothing to do with music actually, i was just poking at her. i just generally find east coasters have an condescending attitude i find annoying... like if it's not on the east coast, it doesn't matter. new yorkers are the worst, but boston is catching up pretty quick.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned them, but it sounds to me like you'd like The Black Keys. Personally, I prefer KOL and Death Cab, but if I get what you mean by umph... you should check them out.
... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
Comments
it's better than any other for-profit rock station I've ever heard. they make the best of weak radio music scenes, IMO. They've got some people there that are just ENTRENCHED like Julie Kramer. Very rich history.
Here are some of my favorites just from last year; some rockin', some not-so-rockin', but all passionate:
ROCKIN'
Clutch - From Beale Street To Oblivion
The Dillinger Escape Plan - Ire Works
Dropkick Murphys - The Meanest Of Times
Pelican - City Of Echoes
Coheed and Cambria - No World For Tomorrow
Porcupine Tree - Fear Of A Blank Planet
NOT SO ROCKIN'
Minus The Bear - Planet Of Ice (best album of the year...)
Radiohead - In Rainbows
Jason Isbell - Sirens Of The Ditch
Aereogramme - My Heart Has A Wish That You Would Not Go
And I second the Twilight Singers recommendation....Twilight Singers, Gutter Twins, Afghan Whigs...it doesn't get much better than Dulli...
check em out if you haven't
08/02/07 - LOLLA!!!
oh I saw them live last year. I thought it was AWFUL! A few good moments, but the show just dragged on and on.
Good list as usual. There are tons of great bands out there all the time...they're just not always part of some pop movement like grunge. Commercial radio is no longer needed to find good music...all you need to do is search myspace.
how do you search myspace for music? How can you search for something when you don't know what you're searching for?
oh and as for never listening to the radio, you pretty much have to in the car. well, I do. Not that I drive much, but when I do I'm pretty much listening to the radio.
yeah their newer album is mellower, i really love a lot of their stuff though... when they had jason isbell especially... i heard live at the 40 watt and it was great
08/02/07 - LOLLA!!!
Mono
Isis
*shels
red sparowes
dalek
saul williams
Anything Mike Patton related
Jesu
The Mars Volta
Blue Scholars
Buckethead
etc,etc...
they reminded me of like a southern rock jam band. Not a huge fan of southern rock, and I'm pretty sure I'd rather listen to Ashlee Simpson than a jam band. It would kinda be a tie...but seriously I really have never listened to an album, just went to the show because I heard so many good things.
you couldnt be more east coast if you tried. explains why you dont like mmj though.
why cant you listen to something else in the car? cars have cd players, tape decks, even if they've only got a radio you can hook your ipod up to that now too. i had plenty of choices as to what to listen to in any car i ever drove. i never listened to the radio unless i was trying to follow a sporting event. hell, how do you even hear ANY music on the radio? all i ever hear is commercials... 15 stations of them.
well there's music on the good station I mentioned. I hate the commercials, but there's usually more music than commercials.
My car CD player is dead, but before it was hated lugging CDs in and out of the car, losing jewel cases under the seats, etc. I have an ipod adapter for long trips, and I used that when I lived in NC. But in this area, all the channels I have on my adapter are taken so there's nothing to tune to.
burn copies of a few cd's and leave them in one of those carry cases in the car?
i'd rather listen to an ashlee simpson cd than the radio. it's god awful.
well as I said, my CD player ist kaput.
But I always loved radio. It's free, it's easy...I know it's not what it used to be, but it has a special place in my heart
like alternative eh? wont give up the radio, wont give up the grunge. cant embrace the ipod/satellite, cant embrace indie... you're right, nostalgia and generational factors have nothing to do with your tastes
it's a good thing you winked.
I love my ipod actually. it comes everywhere with me. I plug it into my stereo, I plug it into my alarm clock...
and I've got hundreds of CDs, they're certainly not all grunge
btw, how is not liking jam bands "east coast"? Have you ever been to vermont???
vermont isnt the east coast. im talking the seaboard which is basically nothing but a ton of cities that bleed into each other... where only the trendiest, whitest, faux-intellectual rock can be heard. if it's got some soul or some funk or some groove (southern rock, jam bands), it's no good becos it's too hippy/redneck. it's backwoods. like ohio. it's got to be wannabe revolutionary punk derivative crap or self-consciously trendy indie
course, i hate most of the south and think they are all ignorant rednecks, but i still love the music. just like i hate gangsta thugs but still love hip hop. just like i hate snooty east coasters but still love some of their artsy bands. the odd exception is i love laid back west coasters, but hate that music.
trust me, plenty of people in boston listen to jam bands. it's truly an unfortunate number! they're always playing everywhere! (stupid college kids!) and none of the reasons you list are any of the reasons I don't like jam bands. In fact, the way you describe faux-intellectualism and what not in terms of indie bands is how I think of jam bands. and honestly, I've never met a fan of jam bands who doesn't have a trust fund
You diss rock bands for "masturbatory solos" and "noodling." God, nothing is more masturbatory than jam bands!
but you can dance during those solos thanks to the bass and drums, especially if you're on acid.
i've heard of the trust fund hippies, but that is an east coast thing. out here in the midwest, most of the ones i know are dirt poor drug-dealing dropouts. so your impression of the jam bands only reinforces why i don't like the east coast.
i've not seen much intellectualism in the jam band circuit. it's all "let's get wasted and have some fun dancing around like fucking idiots." rather than those east coast "we are such serious artists and you must take us seriously becos we are tragically hip and only influenced by super-unknown bands that came before and our music is NOT fun it is an artistic and political statement against the corporate elite structure on behalf of the proletariat that our parents oppressed to give me my trust fund!"
Green Tea Disease, how to find new music. We have mentioned tons of bands in this thread alone. Go to their myspaces and listen to clips, or go to itunes and listen to clips. You might like something - you just have to take a little more responsibility for finding stuff than in the past. And go to Warped (or Lolla, Bamboozle, Coachella, Bonnarro.....) in the summer. I go to shows with my kid. Then, if you find music you like, find out what music THAT band likes. You might like that too.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
we will agree on that. i would rather listen to wfnx over wbcn or waaf, but they all have their terrible moments. i don't get how people sit and listen to the radio at work and hear the same 5 songs 10 times during the work day.
i really don't listen to the radio unless i'm driving around and to be honest i just flip through my presets until i find something that i like - if it is alternative, classic rock, rap, pop, sports radio, whatever.
i would agree with most of the people in this thread though that there is a lot of good, new music out there, it is just not being played on the radio (although fnx has done a good job over the last year) and it is most definitely not on mtv (although they seem to be doing a good job when they have a band be the sidebar music (?) to all the real world and making the band promos for a week - the bad brains of all bands were the one last week).
i went through the random cd buying stage and it just really isn't worth it at all. i just try to check my music blogs every day (and this page too) to see what's good and what sounds interesting and then search out clips or free mp3s or myspace pages or itunes for samples and go from there.
it sounds like to me that you are looking for another foo fighters-esque band and to be honest, you're probably not going to find one because most of the 'straightforward' guitar based popular rock really has really gone the way of crap (in my opinion). just looking at metacritic's top 2007 albums (http://www.metacritic.com/music/bests/2007.shtml) i can see a ton of stuff i would recommend, but very little, if any, that i would categorize in the same style as the foos. it is a rough time for fans of that style of music.
jane, you beat me to it...except i can't be bothered to go to any of the big festivals and i'm 'only' 30. not that i wouldn't love to go, i would just rather see the bands i want in smaller venues.
i would also recommend the whole thing of checking out who bands you like like. some people on the porch take it a little too close to heart (as if anyone in pearl jam likes someone, then they HAVE to like them too), but more often than not you will like a band that the band you like respects and likes.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I've lived in New England my whole life and am kinda all over the map with what I listen to (granted it's all rock, but I digress). I see metal, punk, southern rock, blues-rock, prog, etc. and the bands play the same size venue around here as they do in the south, midwest, west coast, etc. Just like what you like, don't get too wrapped up in who else likes it and give up on creating in your head how other pockets of the country perceive it.
it's got nothing to do with music actually, i was just poking at her. i just generally find east coasters have an condescending attitude i find annoying... like if it's not on the east coast, it doesn't matter. new yorkers are the worst, but boston is catching up pretty quick.
they were excellent
Hmmmmmmm...methinks someone is projecting...
Oh please YES!! If NIN is there I'll WALK to Chicago. They're definitely not new but they are good and still way interesting.
Soulsinging its okay - I knew what you meant
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008