what i'm getting at : Radiohead's music is not conceptual genius. it's not a landmark in pop. it is great however (and i love it).
i don't think any of Radiohead's albums are more challenging than anything pearl jam have done (for example)
Have you heard Kid A and Amnesiac??? A fair bit more challenging than recycling some old who riffs. And they perform most of the songs live, and in most cases, better than the studio versions.
Have you heard Kid A and Amnesiac??? A fair bit more challenging than recycling some old who riffs. And they perform most of the songs live, and in most cases, better than the studio versions.
those are my two favorite radiohead albums, so yes i'm familiar (shall i say) with them. mixing elecronica and pop rock is not more challenging than what pearl jam delivers in Binaural. that's my opinion and i stand by it.
A fair bit more challenging than recycling some old who riffs
is a somewhat ignorant statement to say the least. Radiohead is a safe bet - the critics love them. nuff said.
Athens, Greece: 2006/09/30
"Call me Ishmael. Some years ago- never mind how long precisely- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world." Herman Melville : Moby Dick
those are my two favorite radiohead albums, so yes i'm familiar (shall i say) with them. mixing elecronica and pop rock is not more challenging than what pearl jam delivers in Binaural. that's my opinion and i stand by it.
by the way
is a somewhat ignorant statement to say the least. Radiohead is a safe bet - the critics love them. nuff said.
Its not about mixing genre, even though what they did was unbelievable in that regard. I mean, you go from your most famous album OK Computer, and then you have the balls to make a record like Kid A! And do it well? Pearl Jam did that to a degree with Binaural, but not to the magnitude of Kid A. Binaural was darker. Thats about it. That being said its my second favorite album of theirs. There is one song with a guitar on Kid A. That's just insane considering the band they were before that. A person who knows music in that regard, would not argue that. But at the same time, Pearl Jam is the best at what they do. And that is including riff based rock, with lyrical genius, and passion.
I play guitar, and can play every pearl jam song well. There are some Radiohead songs on guitar and still have trouble playing well, or even correctly. Thats not a knock on Pearl Jam, but thats just how it is. The real difference between the two is song structure, orchestration, and the arrangement of the songs. Radiohead exceeds in that regard.
"Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is the best."
~ FZ ~
i was playing the new album in my office all day yesterday. one person asked me if i was listening to christmas music. oen asked if i was eating acid, and one called it club music.
just goes to show you the range and complexity of their music. people don;t know what to make of it, other than it sounds great.
no disrespect to PJ, ilove them, but they play rock, period. its great, but there is no secret. nothing groundbreaking. just good rock.
I don't know how In Rainbows will stand up in the future. But right now it's my favourite album of all time. I tried listening to other music last night but couldn't enjoy any of it, knowing that I could be listening to this instead.
Erm yeah ripping off bands from The White Label and playing it to mainstream ignorant rock kids who claim it to be groundbreaking was a clever move by Radiohead.
Anyone who thinks Radiohead invented the wheel with Kiddy A and I Can't Sleep really knows nothing all about electronic music such as ambient techno, drum and bass, trip-hop, ambient dub. Radiohead just swapped genres and 99% of their fans being from a Rock (Guitar sound) background were hearing something for the first time.
go and check out FSOL (Future Sound Of London) if you want a tour de force of proper Electronical music.
Erm yeah ripping off bands from The White Label and playing it to mainstream ignorant rock kids who claim it to be groundbreaking was a clever move by Radiohead.
amen
Athens, Greece: 2006/09/30
"Call me Ishmael. Some years ago- never mind how long precisely- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world." Herman Melville : Moby Dick
Erm yeah ripping off bands from The White Label and playing it to mainstream ignorant rock kids who claim it to be groundbreaking was a clever move by Radiohead.
Anyone who thinks Radiohead invented the wheel with Kiddy A and I Can't Sleep really knows nothing all about electronic music such as ambient techno, drum and bass, trip-hop, ambient dub. Radiohead just swapped genres and 99% of their fans being from a Rock (Guitar sound) background were hearing something for the first time.
go and check out FSOL (Future Sound Of London) if you want a tour de force of proper Electronical music.
Wow. I like Radiohead, and yet I haven't read anything so right in quite a while.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
Erm yeah ripping off bands from The White Label and playing it to mainstream ignorant rock kids who claim it to be groundbreaking was a clever move by Radiohead.
Anyone who thinks Radiohead invented the wheel with Kiddy A and I Can't Sleep really knows nothing all about electronic music such as ambient techno, drum and bass, trip-hop, ambient dub. Radiohead just swapped genres and 99% of their fans being from a Rock (Guitar sound) background were hearing something for the first time.
go and check out FSOL (Future Sound Of London) if you want a tour de force of proper Electronical music.
clever move? That move could have reuined their career. Ballsy move if you ask me. And no, i don't think anybody with a brain think that Radiohead reinvented anything. Nobody really does anymore. But what they did was challenge themselves and didn't take an easy route, something that rarely happens, and when it does, it should be commended.
Erm yeah ripping off bands from The White Label and playing it to mainstream ignorant rock kids who claim it to be groundbreaking was a clever move by Radiohead.
Anyone who thinks Radiohead invented the wheel with Kiddy A and I Can't Sleep really knows nothing all about electronic music such as ambient techno, drum and bass, trip-hop, ambient dub. Radiohead just swapped genres and 99% of their fans being from a Rock (Guitar sound) background were hearing something for the first time.
go and check out FSOL (Future Sound Of London) if you want a tour de force of proper Electronical music.
Im really in to trip hop and Radiohead blows the sh*t out of that entire genre to the point where it's not even funny. Only Massive Attack and Portishead come close when at their very best (and trip hop is all they do, unlike the mighty Radiohead).
Future Sound of London are brilliant, but again, nothing on Radiohead. Radiohead are informed by every single type of music and it comes together to create something completely unique. There is nothing out there that sounds like Radiohead and the argument that they're just ripping off underground electronica just doesn't hold any water whatsoever. I am in to all those genres you mentioned that fall under the electronica umbrella and I know a number of people who are far more into that stuff than I am...DJ's, Mixers etc....and all of them adore Radiohead.
clever move? That move could have reuined their career. Ballsy move if you ask me. And no, i don't think anybody with a brain think that Radiohead reinvented anything. Nobody really does anymore. But what they did was challenge themselves and didn't take an easy route, something that rarely happens, and when it does, it should be commended.
clever move? That move could have reuined their career. Ballsy move if you ask me. And no, i don't think anybody with a brain think that Radiohead reinvented anything. Nobody really does anymore. But what they did was challenge themselves and didn't take an easy route, something that rarely happens, and when it does, it should be commended.
Clearly you have a valid point. But Radiohead were so over with the critics and public after Ok Computer - which is an amazing piece of work, that they could have released an album of sounds of animals making out and it would sell well and mostly likely get good reviews from NME
Oh and there are lots of people who think Kid A and the other one are groundbreaking, well I suppose you could claim it was groundbreaking for a guitar to go electronical, but the music on those albums itself isn't even close to groundbreaking - and bands on the underground White Label have been doing stuff like that for years and in a lot of cases much better.
Clearly you have a valid point. But Radiohead were so over with the critics and public after Ok Computer - which is an amazing piece of work, that they could have released an album of sounds of animals making out and it would sell well and mostly likely get good reviews from NME
Oh and there are lots of people who think Kid A and the other one are groundbreaking, well I suppose you could claim it was groundbreaking for a guitar to go electronical, but the music on those albums itself isn't even close to groundbreaking - and bands on the underground White Label have been doing stuff like that for years and in a lot of cases much better.
Thats whats so amazing about it though. Their most famous album, OK Computer, it would be easy to rehash some of that stuff right after that, instead they make an album where one song has a guitar. Its just a real pleasure to see them progress.
People who say Radiohead reinvented this type of music are just blinded and ignorant.
Thats whats so amazing about it though. Their most famous album, OK Computer, it would be easy to rehash some of that stuff right after that, instead they make an album where one song has a guitar. Its just a real pleasure to see them progress.
People who say Radiohead reinvented this type of music are just blinded and ignorant.
Which brings us to another interesting topic. Is it good when bands repackage/reinvent (and other words beginning with re-) their music so dramatically they actually shift genres.
I mean Radioheads first 3 albums are all pretty different but they are all rock albums, Ok Computer is more experimental than the previous albums but it still has all the hallmarks of a rock album. Would it have been such a bad thing if Radiohead hadn't been so 'brave' and actually rehashed (a harsh word) another sublime Rock album maybe progressing on from Ok Computer?
Would people have said yeah it's good but I wish they'd do something totally out there and completely different? I doubt it.
You can look at Pearl Jam's first 4 albums all different sounding yet all quintsential (sorry I can't spell that!) rock albums, yet all have a different sound and feeling, I wouldn't class that as simple lazy repackaging. Alot of bands that have been around for several years and have a big back catalogue of music such as Pearl Jam, REM, The Tragically Hip and U2 for example generally stick to what they know, are good at and obvisously music they enjoy making - I'd never call this lazy or boring. I like a band because of their sound if they suddenly change dramatically I may not like it. If I want to listen to electronic or ambient style music I would have a totally different album collection, but I'm a rock fan and I personally would swap the last 4 Radiohead album for another Ok, Computer - screw millionaires 'being brave' and 'progressing' - Plug in some guitars and write another album full of songs like Lucky, Karma Police, Creep, Black Hole & Let Down.
Radiohead are free to do whatever interests them. This is what interests them. Thom Yorke became bored of rock and roll and melody. Kid A and Amnesiac are difficult but they needed to go through that period to get to this.
In Rainbows is an amalgamation of their rock side and their electronic side. It's a vast improvement on Hail to the Thief. It doesn't feel like they're searching anymore on this record. It's just confident, coherent, sublime and moving. The vocals are r+b influences and his voice is better on this record than anything they've put out.
Radiohead are informed by every single type of music and it comes together to create something completely unique. There is nothing out there that sounds like Radiohead .
newsflash: "There is nothing out there that sounds like"......
pearl jam
tom waits
flaming lips
mercury rev
white stripes
neil young
(the list goes on)
nice try though.
Athens, Greece: 2006/09/30
"Call me Ishmael. Some years ago- never mind how long precisely- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world." Herman Melville : Moby Dick
Errr, exactly. So I don't understand your point. You indirectly acknowledge that Radiohead have created their own unique sound, yet slate people for liking them for that reason. Clearly they didn't invent electronic. Is anyone claiming that? I don't think so.
They're just fucking incredible. This is the best argument for the death of rock and roll I've heard.
Which brings us to another interesting topic. Is it good when bands repackage/reinvent (and other words beginning with re-) their music so dramatically they actually shift genres.
I mean Radioheads first 3 albums are all pretty different but they are all rock albums, Ok Computer is more experimental than the previous albums but it still has all the hallmarks of a rock album. Would it have been such a bad thing if Radiohead hadn't been so 'brave' and actually rehashed (a harsh word) another sublime Rock album maybe progressing on from Ok Computer?
Would people have said yeah it's good but I wish they'd do something totally out there and completely different? I doubt it.
You can look at Pearl Jam's first 4 albums all different sounding yet all quintsential (sorry I can't spell that!) rock albums, yet all have a different sound and feeling, I wouldn't class that as simple lazy repackaging. Alot of bands that have been around for several years and have a big back catalogue of music such as Pearl Jam, REM, The Tragically Hip and U2 for example generally stick to what they know, are good at and obvisously music they enjoy making - I'd never call this lazy or boring. I like a band because of their sound if they suddenly change dramatically I may not like it. If I want to listen to electronic or ambient style music I would have a totally different album collection, but I'm a rock fan and I personally would swap the last 4 Radiohead album for another Ok, Computer - screw millionaires 'being brave' and 'progressing' - Plug in some guitars and write another album full of songs like Lucky, Karma Police, Creep, Black Hole & Let Down.
That's why Radiohead are better off without you as a fan, I never expect them to retread old ground, Pearl Jam have progressed but are happier to stay in a comfortable arena of rock music offering subtle changes.
They certainly are far more original than say Oasis as someone recently claimed they were similar to. What a joke, I'd never proclaim PJ to one of the most diverse band but they do offer something new each time however subtle.
Whereas Oasis have been making the same damn record since What's the Story.
RH are obviously not comfortable doing a Coldplay and like to challenge themselves each time. U2 were once a band who reinvented themselves. Achtung Baby was one of the most successful and artistic reinventions of all time and up to POP they pushed the envelope, then they decided they wanted the fans back after experimenting and produced 2 extremely successful but bland albums for the sake of radio friendly hits.
Give me POP over All You Can't & Atomic Bomb any day. God forbid Radiohead go down this route and stop evolving. If you don't like that as I said before the Band is better off without you because thats not what they are about.
Anyone who tuned out after OK just isn't a fan of the band they just liked the guitar sound but never understood where they were going.
I did and are still impressed by them and don't want easy to listen carbon copies from one of my favourite bands of all time.
Erm yeah ripping off bands from The White Label and playing it to mainstream ignorant rock kids who claim it to be groundbreaking was a clever move by Radiohead.
Anyone who thinks Radiohead invented the wheel with Kiddy A and I Can't Sleep really knows nothing all about electronic music such as ambient techno, drum and bass, trip-hop, ambient dub. Radiohead just swapped genres and 99% of their fans being from a Rock (Guitar sound) background were hearing something for the first time.
go and check out FSOL (Future Sound Of London) if you want a tour de force of proper Electronical music.
I don't think many people think that Radiohead invented electronic music. That being said, what they did between OK Computer and Kid A was truly a leap of faith, and one of the most drastic re-inventions we've seen in the history of Rock.
I think that what they did is comparable to what bands like Led Zeppelin did in the 60s. They loved all the old blues guys, and so that is what they played. No they didn't necessarily play the blues better than people like Robert Johnson, but I would rather listen to Zep 9 times out of 10. They really brought the music to the attention of the mainstream, and made it more accessible. Radiohead has done the same with electronic music.
Not to mention, I really think Thom is a genius song writer, and that alone puts him on another level.
They simply do what THEY want to do every time.They are not interested in what anyone else thinks they should do.They are clearly in a privileged position financially from OK Computer on.However they would have done their own thing anyway,i'm sure.The fact that vast numbers of people happen to connect to all of their albums is just a bonus.If they were a smaller and more moderately successful band,musically they would be exactly the same.
Its all about the music.I believe that the level of fame or the size of the bank balance is incidental and not so important.To be able to MAKE a manageable living writing and performing music is privilege enough IMO.
Christ , what I would give to be able to say I have a viable job as a band member!
'All the rusted signs,we ignore throughout our lives,
Choosing the shiny ones instead'
15 Step is being used in an ad for champion's league coverage on RTE1 (Ireland).
I heard it last night but it took me a second to notice because relative to the
voiceover volume it was quite low.
Interesting...
I always like hearing people's thoughts on song meanings, theme of the album etc. If anybody wants to give it a shot that'd be cool.
I like reading interpretations too. Not so good at interpreting it myself, but this site usually has a lot of opinions on most songs. They have other bands too btw.
Took me awhile but I FUCKING LOVE THIS ALBUM! House of Cards is a sexy song, I love it.
Greatest band of the new century and yes what they're doing since 2000 is
a thousand times better than what PJ have done in this new century.
Comments
Have you heard Kid A and Amnesiac??? A fair bit more challenging than recycling some old who riffs. And they perform most of the songs live, and in most cases, better than the studio versions.
those are my two favorite radiohead albums, so yes i'm familiar (shall i say) with them. mixing elecronica and pop rock is not more challenging than what pearl jam delivers in Binaural. that's my opinion and i stand by it.
by the way
is a somewhat ignorant statement to say the least. Radiohead is a safe bet - the critics love them. nuff said.
"Call me Ishmael. Some years ago- never mind how long precisely- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world." Herman Melville : Moby Dick
Its not about mixing genre, even though what they did was unbelievable in that regard. I mean, you go from your most famous album OK Computer, and then you have the balls to make a record like Kid A! And do it well? Pearl Jam did that to a degree with Binaural, but not to the magnitude of Kid A. Binaural was darker. Thats about it. That being said its my second favorite album of theirs. There is one song with a guitar on Kid A. That's just insane considering the band they were before that. A person who knows music in that regard, would not argue that. But at the same time, Pearl Jam is the best at what they do. And that is including riff based rock, with lyrical genius, and passion.
I play guitar, and can play every pearl jam song well. There are some Radiohead songs on guitar and still have trouble playing well, or even correctly. Thats not a knock on Pearl Jam, but thats just how it is. The real difference between the two is song structure, orchestration, and the arrangement of the songs. Radiohead exceeds in that regard.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is the best."
~ FZ ~
just goes to show you the range and complexity of their music. people don;t know what to make of it, other than it sounds great.
no disrespect to PJ, ilove them, but they play rock, period. its great, but there is no secret. nothing groundbreaking. just good rock.
It's like a 'Best Of' Radiohead album.
Erm yeah ripping off bands from The White Label and playing it to mainstream ignorant rock kids who claim it to be groundbreaking was a clever move by Radiohead.
Anyone who thinks Radiohead invented the wheel with Kiddy A and I Can't Sleep really knows nothing all about electronic music such as ambient techno, drum and bass, trip-hop, ambient dub. Radiohead just swapped genres and 99% of their fans being from a Rock (Guitar sound) background were hearing something for the first time.
go and check out FSOL (Future Sound Of London) if you want a tour de force of proper Electronical music.
amen
"Call me Ishmael. Some years ago- never mind how long precisely- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world." Herman Melville : Moby Dick
Wow. I like Radiohead, and yet I haven't read anything so right in quite a while.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
clever move? That move could have reuined their career. Ballsy move if you ask me. And no, i don't think anybody with a brain think that Radiohead reinvented anything. Nobody really does anymore. But what they did was challenge themselves and didn't take an easy route, something that rarely happens, and when it does, it should be commended.
Im really in to trip hop and Radiohead blows the sh*t out of that entire genre to the point where it's not even funny. Only Massive Attack and Portishead come close when at their very best (and trip hop is all they do, unlike the mighty Radiohead).
Future Sound of London are brilliant, but again, nothing on Radiohead. Radiohead are informed by every single type of music and it comes together to create something completely unique. There is nothing out there that sounds like Radiohead and the argument that they're just ripping off underground electronica just doesn't hold any water whatsoever. I am in to all those genres you mentioned that fall under the electronica umbrella and I know a number of people who are far more into that stuff than I am...DJ's, Mixers etc....and all of them adore Radiohead.
Nice try though.
Bang on.
Clearly you have a valid point. But Radiohead were so over with the critics and public after Ok Computer - which is an amazing piece of work, that they could have released an album of sounds of animals making out and it would sell well and mostly likely get good reviews from NME
Oh and there are lots of people who think Kid A and the other one are groundbreaking, well I suppose you could claim it was groundbreaking for a guitar to go electronical, but the music on those albums itself isn't even close to groundbreaking - and bands on the underground White Label have been doing stuff like that for years and in a lot of cases much better.
Thats whats so amazing about it though. Their most famous album, OK Computer, it would be easy to rehash some of that stuff right after that, instead they make an album where one song has a guitar. Its just a real pleasure to see them progress.
People who say Radiohead reinvented this type of music are just blinded and ignorant.
Which brings us to another interesting topic. Is it good when bands repackage/reinvent (and other words beginning with re-) their music so dramatically they actually shift genres.
I mean Radioheads first 3 albums are all pretty different but they are all rock albums, Ok Computer is more experimental than the previous albums but it still has all the hallmarks of a rock album. Would it have been such a bad thing if Radiohead hadn't been so 'brave' and actually rehashed (a harsh word) another sublime Rock album maybe progressing on from Ok Computer?
Would people have said yeah it's good but I wish they'd do something totally out there and completely different? I doubt it.
You can look at Pearl Jam's first 4 albums all different sounding yet all quintsential (sorry I can't spell that!) rock albums, yet all have a different sound and feeling, I wouldn't class that as simple lazy repackaging. Alot of bands that have been around for several years and have a big back catalogue of music such as Pearl Jam, REM, The Tragically Hip and U2 for example generally stick to what they know, are good at and obvisously music they enjoy making - I'd never call this lazy or boring. I like a band because of their sound if they suddenly change dramatically I may not like it. If I want to listen to electronic or ambient style music I would have a totally different album collection, but I'm a rock fan and I personally would swap the last 4 Radiohead album for another Ok, Computer - screw millionaires 'being brave' and 'progressing' - Plug in some guitars and write another album full of songs like Lucky, Karma Police, Creep, Black Hole & Let Down.
great disc though
dreamer in my dream
we got the guns
i love you,but im..............callin out.........callin out
In Rainbows is an amalgamation of their rock side and their electronic side. It's a vast improvement on Hail to the Thief. It doesn't feel like they're searching anymore on this record. It's just confident, coherent, sublime and moving. The vocals are r+b influences and his voice is better on this record than anything they've put out.
Just listen to Reckoner for confirmation of that.
newsflash: "There is nothing out there that sounds like"......
pearl jam
tom waits
flaming lips
mercury rev
white stripes
neil young
(the list goes on)
nice try though.
"Call me Ishmael. Some years ago- never mind how long precisely- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world." Herman Melville : Moby Dick
There is.
They're just fucking incredible. This is the best argument for the death of rock and roll I've heard.
That's why Radiohead are better off without you as a fan, I never expect them to retread old ground, Pearl Jam have progressed but are happier to stay in a comfortable arena of rock music offering subtle changes.
They certainly are far more original than say Oasis as someone recently claimed they were similar to. What a joke, I'd never proclaim PJ to one of the most diverse band but they do offer something new each time however subtle.
Whereas Oasis have been making the same damn record since What's the Story.
RH are obviously not comfortable doing a Coldplay and like to challenge themselves each time. U2 were once a band who reinvented themselves. Achtung Baby was one of the most successful and artistic reinventions of all time and up to POP they pushed the envelope, then they decided they wanted the fans back after experimenting and produced 2 extremely successful but bland albums for the sake of radio friendly hits.
Give me POP over All You Can't & Atomic Bomb any day. God forbid Radiohead go down this route and stop evolving. If you don't like that as I said before the Band is better off without you because thats not what they are about.
Anyone who tuned out after OK just isn't a fan of the band they just liked the guitar sound but never understood where they were going.
I did and are still impressed by them and don't want easy to listen carbon copies from one of my favourite bands of all time.
I don't think many people think that Radiohead invented electronic music. That being said, what they did between OK Computer and Kid A was truly a leap of faith, and one of the most drastic re-inventions we've seen in the history of Rock.
I think that what they did is comparable to what bands like Led Zeppelin did in the 60s. They loved all the old blues guys, and so that is what they played. No they didn't necessarily play the blues better than people like Robert Johnson, but I would rather listen to Zep 9 times out of 10. They really brought the music to the attention of the mainstream, and made it more accessible. Radiohead has done the same with electronic music.
Not to mention, I really think Thom is a genius song writer, and that alone puts him on another level.
Its all about the music.I believe that the level of fame or the size of the bank balance is incidental and not so important.To be able to MAKE a manageable living writing and performing music is privilege enough IMO.
Christ , what I would give to be able to say I have a viable job as a band member!
Choosing the shiny ones instead'
Reading 06 - Torino 06 - Wembley 07
15 Step is being used in an ad for champion's league coverage on RTE1 (Ireland).
I heard it last night but it took me a second to notice because relative to the
voiceover volume it was quite low.
Interesting...
I always like hearing people's thoughts on song meanings, theme of the album etc. If anybody wants to give it a shot that'd be cool.
I like reading interpretations too. Not so good at interpreting it myself, but this site usually has a lot of opinions on most songs. They have other bands too btw.
http://www.songmeanings.net/artist.php?aid=200
It seems to be getting better with every listen. Best work since OK Computer!
the bad idea or me befallen by it?
House of Cards is a sexy song, I love it.
Greatest band of the new century and yes what they're doing since 2000 is
a thousand times better than what PJ have done in this new century.
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009