And I'm not trying to completely analyze you here, but I do think that when someone says hip-hop artists aren't real artists and only performers, it shows ignorance and close-mindedness.
I'm not saying this guy is totally right with regrads to rap and hip-hop, but the vast majority of mainstream rap and hip-hop is dominated by vapid, uninspired lyrics. I'm not saying all of it is, and fair play if you can find something in that which you can enjoy, but I can totally understand why many rock fans find modern rap totally vacuous. And thinking about it, the actual art-form of rapping isn't what people have issue with, after all millions of rock fans liked RATM, Beastie Boys and to some extent people like Eminem, so it has to be the lyrical content that irks people. Personally speaking, if I like a song, I like it - doesn't matter who it is, what genre of music, if it's good, then that's all that matters.
How the fuck did we get on the topic of rap music......
I'm not saying this guy is totally right with regrads to rap and hip-hop, but the vast majority of mainstream rap and hip-hop is dominated by vapid, uninspired lyrics. I'm not saying all of it is, and fair play if you can find something in that which you can enjoy, but I can totally understand why many rock fans find modern rap totally vacuous. And thinking about it, the actual art-form of rapping isn't what people have issue with, after all millions of rock fans liked RATM, Beastie Boys and to some extent people like Eminem, so it has to be the lyrical content that irks people. Personally speaking, if I like a song, I like it - doesn't matter who it is, what genre of music, if it's good, then that's all that matters.
How the fuck did we get on the topic of rap music......
Green Day rule.
The vast majority of mainstream music is dominated by vapid, uninspired lyrics. But rock fans always single out rap, and it has nothing to do with the lyrics. What you said is a perfect example...RATM, Beastie Boys, and Eminem all have one very obvious thing in common, and it isn't their lyrical content. You're kidding yourself if you believe rock fans like those three groups because they have better lyrical content.
Wow, we went from Green Day to rap? I LOVE this thread!
Seriously though, some of the most adventurous and interesting artists in the history of music have been hip-hop artists. I can admit this, even as a rock fan. You can't dismiss the impact of an artist like Run DMC, Public Enemy, N.W.A., or even Eminem. They've all changed the face of music, just as drastically (if not more) as the classic bands everyone holds in godlike regard.
With this spirit in mind, if I may, allow me to make a bold statement to tie us in with the previous sentiments...
In his late 80's-early 90's heyday, Ice-T was more punk than most punk.
"We've done really well with teenage death songs." -EV
The vast majority of mainstream music is dominated by vapid, uninspired lyrics. But rock fans always single out rap, and it has nothing to do with the lyrics. What you said is a perfect example...RATM, Beastie Boys, and Eminem all have one very obvious thing in common, and it isn't their lyrical content. You're kidding yourself if you believe rock fans like those three groups because they have better lyrical content.
Well maybe not Eminem, although some of his lyrics can be quite witty and his impact is undeniable. But RATM and Beasties both have good lyrics. And personally I don't find bad rap any more offensive than bad pop or bad rock etc. I'm kind of unsure what this one 'obvious' thing they have in common is. Please enlighten me.
Well maybe not Eminem, although some of his lyrics can be quite witty and his impact is undeniable. But RATM and Beasties both have good lyrics. And personally I don't find bad rap any more offensive than bad pop or bad rock etc. I'm kind of unsure what this one 'obvious' thing they have in common is. Please enlighten me.
Ps. I agree with sickwillie.
The obvious thing is that those artists are, for the most part, white. Not to mention the fact that most people don't classify RATM under hip hop. Artists like Jurassic 5, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, The Roots, and 2Pac all have great lyrics...arguably much better lyrics than the Beastie Boys and Eminem. But most rock fans wouldn't know it because they don't bother to search through the pop garbage to find these artists like they do for rock. It has nothing to do with the lyrical content...it has to do with rock fans (who are mostly white) ultimately looking at hip-hop as a black thing. The same goes for most hip-hop fans who look at rock as a white thing. I'm not saying everyone should like rock and/or hip-hop, but I am saying it's ignorant to single out one or the other and say "rock sucks for the most part" or "hip-hop sucks for the most part". What people should be saying is "pop music sucks for the most part".
Havent taken the time to read all of the replies to this thread, but I'm sure there is alot of shit talking about AI. Personally, I like Green Day and when AI first came out I thought it was tremendous. I still really like it, but the radio/MTV killed alot of the songs on as they usually do.
The obvious thing is that those artists are, for the most part, white. Not to mention the fact that most people don't classify RATM under hip hop. Artists like Jurassic 5, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, The Roots, and 2Pac all have great lyrics...arguably much better lyrics than the Beastie Boys and Eminem. But most rock fans wouldn't know it because they don't bother to search through the pop garbage to find these artists like they do for rock. It has nothing to do with the lyrical content...it has to do with rock fans (who are mostly white) ultimately looking at hip-hop as a black thing. The same goes for most hip-hop fans who look at rock as a white thing. I'm not saying everyone should like rock and/or hip-hop, but I am saying it's ignorant to single out one or the other and say "rock sucks for the most part" or "hip-hop sucks for the most part". What people should be saying is "pop music sucks for the most part".
Wow, are you calling me racist? I was only focusing on hip-hop and rap because somebody else bought it up. I wasn't for a second saying there isn't any decent rap music, and for the record, the reason I used those acts as examples was because some of them use guitars which tend to appeal more to rock fans. Please also notice I said the vast majority of MAINSTREAM rap and hip-hop. The point I was trying to make was that essentially I think a lot of rock fans are capable of enjoying rap as a form of expression, but that there is quite a difference between the styles of lyrics displayed in mainstream rock and mainstream rap.
Wow, are you calling me racist? I was only focusing on hip-hop and rap because somebody else bought it up. I wasn't for a second saying there isn't any decent rap music, and for the record, the reason I used those acts as examples was because some of them use guitars which tend to appeal more to rock fans. Please also notice I said the vast majority of MAINSTREAM rap and hip-hop. The point I was trying to make was that essentially I think a lot of rock fans are capable of enjoying rap as a form of expression, but that there is quite a difference between the styles of lyrics displayed in mainstream rock and mainstream rap.
No, I'm not calling anyone a racist. I know you specified mainstream hip-hop, but the other person I was talking to didn't.
However, I still disagree with you on the reason why most rock fans don't like most rap. I think the reason is because they (being mostly white) don't feel like they can relate to hip-hop at all. You were right to list the hip-hop artists you did, but the reason more rock fans like them has more to do with race than lyrical content. I'm not saying it's ONLY due to race, but it's certainly not mostly due to lyrical content. Like I said, there are plenty of artists out there with incredible lyrics, yet they get lumped in with the likes of 50 Cent by rock fans. That to me, shows ignorance and a lack of knowledge and respect for hip-hop.
No, I'm not calling anyone a racist. I know you specified mainstream hip-hop, but the other person I was talking to didn't.
However, I still disagree with you on the reason why most rock fans don't like most rap. I think the reason is because they (being mostly white) don't feel like they can relate to hip-hop at all. You were right to list the hip-hop artists you did, but the reason more rock fans like them has more to do with race than lyrical content. I'm not saying it's ONLY due to race, but it's certainly not mostly due to lyrical content. Like I said, there are plenty of artists out there with incredible lyrics, yet they get lumped in with the likes of 50 Cent by rock fans. That to me, shows ignorance and a lack of knowledge and respect for hip-hop.
Ok for the most part, the artists you are talking about are on the outskirts of the mainstream, so it's entirely feasible that a lot of rock fans wouldn't be aware they even existed. A lot of rock music is based around 'meaningful' or 'emotional' lyrics. Whether these lyrics are really that 'meaningful' is besides the point, it's the way they are perceived by the listener. The mainstream rap I'm exposed to tends to be bland songs about guns, hos, bling etc. I think the reason a lot of rock fans have embraced stuff like eminem is because he has written about similar themes that appear in rock music. Personally I don't really care for eminem, some of it's alright, but for the most part I find him to be a bit of a moaner.
P.s I'm talking about the reason most rock fans don't like mainstream rap - just to clarify.
Ok for the most part, the artists you are talking about are on the outskirts of the mainstream, so it's entirely feasible that a lot of rock fans wouldn't be aware they even existed.
See this is exactly my point. The average rock fan will bash certain mainstream bands such as Nickelback or Creed, but praise non-mainstream bands at the same time. Those people wouldn't be aware that those non-mainstream rock bands existed if they hadn't taken the time to look through the pop crap to find them. However, they won't do it for hip-hop...they will simply say "hip-hop sucks". I know you don't do that, but it sure seemed like that's what the other poster was doing. And the reason they don't give hip-hop the same chance is not because of the lyrical content of the mainstream artists.
See this is exactly my point. The average rock fan will bash certain mainstream bands such as Nickelback or Creed, but praise non-mainstream bands at the same time. Those people wouldn't be aware that those non-mainstream rock bands existed if they hadn't taken the time to look through the pop crap to find them. However, they won't do it for hip-hop...they will simply say "hip-hop sucks". I know you don't do that, but it sure seemed like that's what the other poster was doing. And the reason they don't give hip-hop the same chance is not because of the lyrical content of the mainstream artists.
Ok I kind of get your point, and it does seem like we are going in circles here, but there are plenty of decent mainstream rock bands, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Foo Fighters, Tool, NIN, Smashing Pumpkins etc, all who have decent lyrics. The point I'm trying to make is that the average rock fan isn't put off by rap per se, just the rap which they are exposed to which they can't relate to - and principally this is because lyrically it is a million miles away from what they are used to. The fact there have been plenty of cross-over acts kind of demonstrates my point. I'm not saying that some people aren't ignorant to the fact there are decent hip-hop artists out there, but I don't think race is their primary reason for not liking it. The rock community is plenty capable of embracing black musicians, Jimi Hendrix, Bad brains, Ben Harper, Rage against the machine, Bloc Party, Tv on the radio, Skunk Anansie - all proving my point.
Ok I kind of get your point, and it does seem like we are going in circles here, but there are plenty of decent mainstream rock bands, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Foo Fighters, Tool, NIN, Smashing Pumpkins etc, all who have decent lyrics. The point I'm trying to make is that the average rock fan isn't put off by rap per se, just the rap which they are exposed to which they can't relate to - and principally this is because lyrically it is a million miles away from what they are used to. The fact there have been plenty of cross-over acts kind of demonstrates my point. I'm not saying that some people aren't ignorant to the fact there are decent hip-hop artists out there, but I don't think race is their primary reason for not liking it. The rock community is plenty capable of embracing black musicians, Jimi Hendrix, Bad brains, Ben Harper, Rage against the machine, Bloc Party, Tv on the radio, Skunk Anansie - all proving my point.
I can name plenty of decent mainstream artists, and I already have...Jay-Z, 2Pac, Mos Def, etc. etc. There are plenty out there. People are exposed to decent rap as much as decent rock, but the decent rap won't get nearly as recognized.
And it's not just about race, either. It's a combination of race and culture. When I say a "black thing" or a "white thing" that goes beyond race. Most rock fans can relate to Jimi Hendrix more than they can Eminem, whereas most hip-hop fans would relate more to Eminem than Hendrix.
So I still think it has more to do with race/culture than lyrical stylings.
I just think it's a shame how overplayed all of the songs got
agreed. i was really into this album alot when it came out, its just so many of the songs got way overplayed. it'll probably take me a while to listen to it again. . .kinda reminds me of when live came out with 'throwing copper', loved that album until it was played into submission. . .then couldnt listen to it for a few years.
i have wished for so long, how i wish for you today
JEFFREY ROSS ROGERS 1975-2002
I really don't like the womanizer rap bling shit that you hear on the radio. Other than that I don't have a poblem with it. I can't imagine how this ties into green day
Comments
I'm not saying this guy is totally right with regrads to rap and hip-hop, but the vast majority of mainstream rap and hip-hop is dominated by vapid, uninspired lyrics. I'm not saying all of it is, and fair play if you can find something in that which you can enjoy, but I can totally understand why many rock fans find modern rap totally vacuous. And thinking about it, the actual art-form of rapping isn't what people have issue with, after all millions of rock fans liked RATM, Beastie Boys and to some extent people like Eminem, so it has to be the lyrical content that irks people. Personally speaking, if I like a song, I like it - doesn't matter who it is, what genre of music, if it's good, then that's all that matters.
How the fuck did we get on the topic of rap music......
Green Day rule.
The vast majority of mainstream music is dominated by vapid, uninspired lyrics. But rock fans always single out rap, and it has nothing to do with the lyrics. What you said is a perfect example...RATM, Beastie Boys, and Eminem all have one very obvious thing in common, and it isn't their lyrical content. You're kidding yourself if you believe rock fans like those three groups because they have better lyrical content.
Seriously though, some of the most adventurous and interesting artists in the history of music have been hip-hop artists. I can admit this, even as a rock fan. You can't dismiss the impact of an artist like Run DMC, Public Enemy, N.W.A., or even Eminem. They've all changed the face of music, just as drastically (if not more) as the classic bands everyone holds in godlike regard.
With this spirit in mind, if I may, allow me to make a bold statement to tie us in with the previous sentiments...
In his late 80's-early 90's heyday, Ice-T was more punk than most punk.
Well maybe not Eminem, although some of his lyrics can be quite witty and his impact is undeniable. But RATM and Beasties both have good lyrics. And personally I don't find bad rap any more offensive than bad pop or bad rock etc. I'm kind of unsure what this one 'obvious' thing they have in common is. Please enlighten me.
Ps. I agree with sickwillie.
The obvious thing is that those artists are, for the most part, white. Not to mention the fact that most people don't classify RATM under hip hop. Artists like Jurassic 5, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, The Roots, and 2Pac all have great lyrics...arguably much better lyrics than the Beastie Boys and Eminem. But most rock fans wouldn't know it because they don't bother to search through the pop garbage to find these artists like they do for rock. It has nothing to do with the lyrical content...it has to do with rock fans (who are mostly white) ultimately looking at hip-hop as a black thing. The same goes for most hip-hop fans who look at rock as a white thing. I'm not saying everyone should like rock and/or hip-hop, but I am saying it's ignorant to single out one or the other and say "rock sucks for the most part" or "hip-hop sucks for the most part". What people should be saying is "pop music sucks for the most part".
Wow, are you calling me racist? I was only focusing on hip-hop and rap because somebody else bought it up. I wasn't for a second saying there isn't any decent rap music, and for the record, the reason I used those acts as examples was because some of them use guitars which tend to appeal more to rock fans. Please also notice I said the vast majority of MAINSTREAM rap and hip-hop. The point I was trying to make was that essentially I think a lot of rock fans are capable of enjoying rap as a form of expression, but that there is quite a difference between the styles of lyrics displayed in mainstream rock and mainstream rap.
No, I'm not calling anyone a racist. I know you specified mainstream hip-hop, but the other person I was talking to didn't.
However, I still disagree with you on the reason why most rock fans don't like most rap. I think the reason is because they (being mostly white) don't feel like they can relate to hip-hop at all. You were right to list the hip-hop artists you did, but the reason more rock fans like them has more to do with race than lyrical content. I'm not saying it's ONLY due to race, but it's certainly not mostly due to lyrical content. Like I said, there are plenty of artists out there with incredible lyrics, yet they get lumped in with the likes of 50 Cent by rock fans. That to me, shows ignorance and a lack of knowledge and respect for hip-hop.
Ok for the most part, the artists you are talking about are on the outskirts of the mainstream, so it's entirely feasible that a lot of rock fans wouldn't be aware they even existed. A lot of rock music is based around 'meaningful' or 'emotional' lyrics. Whether these lyrics are really that 'meaningful' is besides the point, it's the way they are perceived by the listener. The mainstream rap I'm exposed to tends to be bland songs about guns, hos, bling etc. I think the reason a lot of rock fans have embraced stuff like eminem is because he has written about similar themes that appear in rock music. Personally I don't really care for eminem, some of it's alright, but for the most part I find him to be a bit of a moaner.
P.s I'm talking about the reason most rock fans don't like mainstream rap - just to clarify.
See this is exactly my point. The average rock fan will bash certain mainstream bands such as Nickelback or Creed, but praise non-mainstream bands at the same time. Those people wouldn't be aware that those non-mainstream rock bands existed if they hadn't taken the time to look through the pop crap to find them. However, they won't do it for hip-hop...they will simply say "hip-hop sucks". I know you don't do that, but it sure seemed like that's what the other poster was doing. And the reason they don't give hip-hop the same chance is not because of the lyrical content of the mainstream artists.
Ok I kind of get your point, and it does seem like we are going in circles here, but there are plenty of decent mainstream rock bands, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Foo Fighters, Tool, NIN, Smashing Pumpkins etc, all who have decent lyrics. The point I'm trying to make is that the average rock fan isn't put off by rap per se, just the rap which they are exposed to which they can't relate to - and principally this is because lyrically it is a million miles away from what they are used to. The fact there have been plenty of cross-over acts kind of demonstrates my point. I'm not saying that some people aren't ignorant to the fact there are decent hip-hop artists out there, but I don't think race is their primary reason for not liking it. The rock community is plenty capable of embracing black musicians, Jimi Hendrix, Bad brains, Ben Harper, Rage against the machine, Bloc Party, Tv on the radio, Skunk Anansie - all proving my point.
But 99% of the hip hop on the radio just sucks. Its commercialized "wearin my bling bling drivin my escalade wit my 2 bitches" garbage.
I like my music to have a bit of substance.
2005 - 9/15, 9/16, 9/30, 10/1, 10/3
2006 - 5/5, 5/12, 5/13, 5/27, 5/28, 5/30, 6/1, 6/3, 6/23, 7/22, 7/23, 12/2
2007 - 6/27, 8/3
2008 - 6/14, 6/19, 6/20, 6/22, 6/24, 6/25, 6/27, 6/28, 6/30, 7/1
I can name plenty of decent mainstream artists, and I already have...Jay-Z, 2Pac, Mos Def, etc. etc. There are plenty out there. People are exposed to decent rap as much as decent rock, but the decent rap won't get nearly as recognized.
And it's not just about race, either. It's a combination of race and culture. When I say a "black thing" or a "white thing" that goes beyond race. Most rock fans can relate to Jimi Hendrix more than they can Eminem, whereas most hip-hop fans would relate more to Eminem than Hendrix.
So I still think it has more to do with race/culture than lyrical stylings.
JEFFREY ROSS ROGERS 1975-2002
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finally, FUCK TICKETMASTER
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