American Idiot

reeferchief

Saturnal wrote:

No, I don't consider mainstream artists on record labels punk. This isn't my definition, it's just how real punk fans think. I'm not defending it. And Green Day did not bring punk to the mainstream anyway. Nirvana did it before them like Rollins said. Bringing something to the mainstream is the opposite of punk.

did'nt The Ramones bring punk to the mainstream? and The Sex Pistols? and The Clash? I'm pretty sure they did you know.

The message and the ethic is still punk no matter how many people are listening, I'm not a fan of the last two Green Day albums but still regard some of their older work quite highly.

catefrances

reeferchief wrote:

did'nt The Ramones bring punk to the mainstream? and The Sex Pistols? and The Clash? I'm pretty sure they did you know.

The message and the ethic is still punk no matter how many people are listening, I'm not a fan of the last two Green Day albums but still regard some of their older work quite highly.

the sex pistols. give me a break. i have no regard for them at all.

reeferchief

catefrances wrote:

the sex pistols. give me a break. i have no regard for them at all.

No regard for the Pistols eh? as a band they were directly responsible for a lot of the other British punk bands exsistence, The Buzzcocks, Sham 69 and UK Subs founding members all decided to form bands after seeing The Pistols live for instance various members of those bands have stated that themselves.
Songs like God Save The Queen, Anarchy In The UK, Pretty Vacant, Holiday in the Sun, whether you like them or not are punk anthems down to the bone.

catefrances

reeferchief wrote:

No regard for the Pistols eh? as a band they were directly responsible for a lot of the other British punk bands exsistence, The Buzzcocks, Sham 69 and UK Subs founding members all decided to form bands after seeing The Pistols live for instance various members of those bands have stated that themselves.
Songs like God Save The Queen, Anarchy In The UK, Pretty Vacant, Holiday in the Sun, whether you like them or not are punk anthems down to the bone.

shit if i saw the sex pistols live i'd think i could do it too.

i admit i don't mind pretty vacant.

reeferchief

catefrances wrote:

shit if i saw the sex pistols live i'd think i could do it too.

i admit i don't mind pretty vacant.

I'm not saying they were brilliant or anything.
What I'm saying is regardless of you're personal opinion, they were very much responsible for bringing punk to the mainstream's attention long before Kurt and co.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

reeferchief wrote:

did'nt The Ramones bring punk to the mainstream? and The Sex Pistols? and The Clash? I'm pretty sure they did you know.

The message and the ethic is still punk no matter how many people are listening, I'm not a fan of the last two Green Day albums but still regard some of their older work quite highly.

That's right, those bands did do it before Nirvana. My point was just that Green Day did not, which is what someone else posted.

The message may be the same for mainstream bands like these, but the ethic is definitely lost.

catefrances

reeferchief wrote:

I'm not saying they were brilliant or anything.
What I'm saying is regardless of you're personal opinion, they were very much responsible for bringing punk to the mainstream's attention long before Kurt and co.

this is an english thing isn't it.
i haven't denied anything i just said i had no regard for them. that's it.
you also have to remember that music scenes are parochial for the most part. what was being paid attention to in one place wasn't necessarily what other places were paying attention to.

reeferchief

Saturnal wrote:

That's right, those bands did do it before Nirvana. My point was just that Green Day did not, which is what someone else posted.

The message may be the same for mainstream bands like these, but the ethic is definitely lost.

Sorry dude I know I quoted you but it was more just at the thread in general really.:)

reeferchief

catefrances wrote:

this is an english thing isn't it.
i haven't denied anything i just said i had no regard for them. that's it.
you also have to remember that music scenes are parochial for the most part. what was being paid attention to in one place wasn't necessarily what other places were paying attention to.

Well that's just me and my perception again for ya.:p

lalalalaaaaaaaa

facepollution wrote:

I've seen Green Day live many times, and their audience is a real cross section of people, don't forget they got popular over ten years ago, and since they have retained many of their original fans, they are obviously older too. I first saw Green Day live back in '95 when I was 13 years old, I last saw them in 2005, and there were plenty of people my age and older. And yes I've seen other punk bands live too, my current favourite being The Bronx.

From the fact you say you don't really like punk music, I'd find it hard to believe you knew that much about it - why would you? I'm not really a fan of classical music, thus I know very little about it.

It sounds like you've been hanging out with punk purists for too long. I'll absolutely concede that they are pop-punk, since they quite obviously use pop melodies, but having said that so did bands like the Clash and the Ramones. The true meaning of the word 'Punk' is an aesthetic by which people live by. There is nowhere in the 'rule book' that says a punk band can't release an album on a major label.

Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about the live show, because I haven't seen them in a long time. However, I still doubt that audience is filled with mostly punks.

And I'm not claiming to know a lot about punk, because I don't like it. But I do know people who like it and, more importantly, live it. And those people hate Green Day. But I think it's wrong to suggest that I can't understand something that I don't like.

And maybe "punk purists" is the proper term for my interpretation of punk, I dunno. I don't think it changes my opinion that there is no such thing as "pop punk" though. That term makes no sense to me, when I think about what punk truly stems from. But if there is such a thing as "pop-punk", I suppose Green Day would fit the label. There is no rule book, like you said, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

reeferchief wrote:

Sorry dude I know I quoted you but it was more just at the thread in general really.:)

Right on.

catefrances

reeferchief wrote:

Well that's just me and my perception again for ya.:p

never mind the bollocks. oh well whatever..... i so get that now. clever boy kurt .

how's that for perception?

reeferchief

catefrances wrote:

never mind the bollocks. oh well whatever..... i so get that now. clever boy kurt .

how's that for perception?

Lol.:)

facepollution

Saturnal wrote:

Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about the live show, because I haven't seen them in a long time. However, I still doubt that audience is filled with mostly punks.

And I'm not claiming to know a lot about punk, because I don't like it. But I do know people who like it and, more importantly, live it. And those people hate Green Day. But I think it's wrong to suggest that I can't understand something that I don't like.

And maybe "punk purists" is the proper term for my interpretation of punk, I dunno. I don't think it changes my opinion that there is no such thing as "pop punk" though. That term makes no sense to me, when I think about what punk truly stems from. But if there is such a thing as "pop-punk", I suppose Green Day would fit the label. There is no rule book, like you said, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think punk purists miss the point entirely, making them not very punk after all. You don't have to have a mohawk and ripped jeans to be punk, like I said it's a belief system. I can totally see why 'real' punks don't like Green Day, because they are an incredibly successful band, but that doesn't really change anything.

So yeah, agree to disagree.

norm

Saturnal wrote:

Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about the live show, because I haven't seen them in a long time. However, I still doubt that audience is filled with mostly punks.

And I'm not claiming to know a lot about punk, because I don't like it. But I do know people who like it and, more importantly, live it. And those people hate Green Day. But I think it's wrong to suggest that I can't understand something that I don't like.

And maybe "punk purists" is the proper term for my interpretation of punk, I dunno. I don't think it changes my opinion that there is no such thing as "pop punk" though. That term makes no sense to me, when I think about what punk truly stems from. But if there is such a thing as "pop-punk", I suppose Green Day would fit the label. There is no rule book, like you said, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree with facepollution. Not to drag this out saturnal but these "punk purists" you're talkin about aren't really punk, they're poseurs. They think and act and dress a certain way to be punk. And that's not punk.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

cutback wrote:

I agree with facepollution. Not to drag this out saturnal but these "punk purists" you're talkin about aren't really punk, they're poseurs. They think and act and dress a certain way to be punk. And that's not punk.

I wasn't the one who brought "punk purists" into the discussion, that was someone else. I never once said punks act or dress a certain way, nor do I think that.

NickyNooch

Saturnal wrote:

That's a perfect example of what true punk fans would not consider punk. Punk bands release on independent labels...Black Flag, The Queers, Dead Kennedys, etc.

The Queers! My band is playing a show with them at then end of this month!

Anyway, not to dwell on this again, but punk rock isn't solely about anti-establishment like someone earlier suggested. Look at (arguably) the greatest punk band of all time, the Ramones... Johnny Ramone was a VERY vocal Republican, as is Michale Graves (ex-Misfits singer), etc.

Punk is punk. It doesn't have an explanation or need one. It just is.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

NickyNooch wrote:

The Queers! My band is playing a show with them at then end of this month!

Anyway, not to dwell on this again, but punk rock isn't solely about anti-establishment like someone earlier suggested. Look at (arguably) the greatest punk band of all time, the Ramones... Johnny Ramone was a VERY vocal Republican, as is Michale Graves (ex-Misfits singer), etc.

Punk is punk. It doesn't have an explanation or need one. It just is.

The Queers are a funny bunch...

I just wanted to say that holding republican ideals means you're automatically not anti-establishment. Republicans used to be in favor of less government control, so I can see how that could fit into a punk mentality.

And if punk doesn't have an explanation, then it doesn't mean anything, which I don't think is true. I think saying "punk is just punk...there's no explaining it" is not correct. To me, it's just another way to say "I'm going to call this band punk, but I'm not exactly sure why". Like I said, if punk doesn't have an explanation, then Michael Jackson would fit into the category...there's no explanation for that guy. But he doesn't make punk music.

Ricsard

They make punk rock or not - I truly love their stuffs from the early ages, and those two shows last year that I attended were amongst the best ones I've ever whitnessed! They blew our sportsarena and the entire Nova Rock festival, they were at the very high level of the biggest bands!!!

BTW American Idiot is still far better than almost anything on the radios of the world especially all those RnB, Hiphop and stupid whining terrible popshits (fuckin' Justin, Robbie Williams, Beyonce, Mariah, 50c, Jay-z etc) that you are almost forced to listen to and I don't think GD are sellouts 'cos they got popular again!!! It seems to be a shame to see them in an environment like that, amongst such losers but they are finally some exceptions of a true wisdom (radio spreads mostly shit) and it is amazing to hear/see some instant classic GD songs after 60 minutes of worthless and forgettable antimusic on MTV for example!!!
And we shouldn't forget we must respect all the generation and the nowadays teenagers are truly impressed by GD which is absolutely understandable if you wonder what MTV supllies and how much the world is fucked up!!! I remember how most people threw their shit onto PJ at the early nineties - it was painful to hear and read those comments 'cos I was 100% sure they would become evergreen in a very short time!!!!! I think GD has been on this road in spite of the fact that some people totally refuse it!

Let's face the truth: the biggest problem of the majority of the punk bands is the fact they are spontaneous often talentless, but funloving and sincere guys who do not just want to, but even are NOT able to step out of their shadows and become professional or make music that stands the test of time!!!!!!!
The Clash, SP, Green Day and Offspring and some few others proved the opposite, each album of theirs are at least good...(the price was fulmination from the punk rock scene which is ridiculous) but what about the others???:D:D:D
If the mighty Ramones (I love their music) had made it big they would be the most stupid band in the majority's opinion...but they didn't and after those tragedies they've been in a cultic status!!! How strange is it???
Honestly guys, What does REALLY matter : outfit, image, success, the death of a rock star....or maybe the music you choose to listen to????????;) Think about just PJ!;);)

facepollution

Ricsard I totally agree. Pearl Jam are very punk in terms of their ethics, they make music that first and foremost appeals to them, they aren't bothered if it's cool or not, and they speak out about the things that they care about.

If American Idiot had sold say 10,000 copies, I'd still think it was an amazing album, but we probably wouldn't be having this debate - nothing in the music business guarantees success, and Green Day know that better than anyone, having experienced dwindling sales prior to AI. Thus all this talk of 'selling out' is utter bullshit because the album's success was anything but assured.