Immigration
Comments
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Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.0 -
Tim Simmons said:I'm coming around to the belief that for a large swath of Americans, and for various reasons, unless it affects them directly, they don't give a shit/could not care less.I think you're right and I've believed that to be true for quite a long time.In the very important 2024 election, only 2/3 of adults eligible to vote bothered to vote. Which mean 1/3 did not. That's what I would call a large swath."It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0
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PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.I think a lot of it goes back to denial. The current administration is not fascist. Climate change is a hoax. Species extinction is a normal thing. (I'll stop short of chem trails.)It's just more convenient and less stressful to think everything is OK. And of course, it's not. Like the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20. Only, by then it's often too late."It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Christina Rank, a 25-year-old classroom assistant, was pulling into the parking lot of Concord Education Center -- a special education school in Inver Grove Heights, Minnesota where she has worked for seven years -- early Monday morning when an ICE vehicle collided with her car. According to witnesses, agents quickly surrounded her vehicle, broke her window, and dragged her out. As masked agents shoved her into the back of their SUV, Christina could be heard sobbing "Why? Why? Why?" before they drove off with her.
This disturbing incident occurred as 3,000 heavily armed federal agents have flooded the Minneapolis area since early January -- one of the largest federal occupations of an American city in U.S. history. Mayor Jacob Frey observed yesterday that federal agents now outnumber local law enforcement by nearly five to one. Many residents have compared the experience to a military occupation, with masked agents in combat gear carrying assault rifles and patrolling quiet residential streets in convoys of unmarked vehicles.
This mirrors a pattern that has emerged across the Minneapolis area over the past two weeks, with numerous residents reporting that federal agents -- who are often seen driving recklessly, speeding, and going through red lights -- have rammed their vehicles. In this case, ICE agents attempted to justify their actions by claiming Christina had hit their vehicle. In video footage from the scene, an agent can be heard saying she "rammed" his car. But multiple witnesses, including coworkers who were present, immediately disputed this account.
One colleague is heard on video saying: "I was right here. I was right here the whole time. You rammed her vehicle." Physical evidence further contradicted the agents' claims. Christina's mother, Sarah Hunkele, noted that the damage was to the passenger side door and rear window -- not the front bumper -- indicating that "they rammed her and then broke her window to pull her out of the vehicle."
Christina was taken to the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement detention facility at Fort Snelling and held for nearly 12 hours. Throughout her detention, her family received almost no information. "You don't know where she is going, where she is at, what is happening," her mother said. "I was told I could not see her and was not able to talk with anyone there. She was told she would get another phone call once they decided if they were going to charge her but we haven't heard anything since," Hunkele added.
"The lack of visibility and accountability is awful," her mother continued. "She is being treated like a criminal for no reason." As of January 15, no charges have been filed against Christina and ICE has not responded to media requests for comment.
Christina's mother questioned why ICE agents were at a special education school in the first place -- and why they used such excessive force on her daughter. "The school is one for students with special needs. Why were they there? What was their purpose being at this location? And what was the purpose behind their excessive force with Christina?"
Concord Education Center is a Level 4 school, meaning it serves students with severe disabilities with very limited verbal skills. Amber Cherrier, a former special education teacher at the school, explained the implications of federal agents operating in such an environment.
"These children will likely not understand the demands shouted by police or ICE," Cherrier observed. "They will likely not be able to comply and are extremely vulnerable around police and ICE, especially if the person does not have extensive training and understanding of neurodivergence and how to de-escalate a situation."
Hunkele said she cannot understand why federal agents showed up with weapons to such a sensitive environment. "The staff is there not only to teach but to protect. For federal agents to show up with guns?" She emphasized that her daughter would never act with ill intent: "She's young. She's very passionate about her work. She's very caring. She would never do anything with ill intent. There was a lot of unnecessary force used in a situation that could have been defused in many other ways."
Christina's case is just one example of the reckless, lawless behavior that federal agents have been engaging in throughout the Minneapolis area over the past several weeks. Numerous videos and witness testimonies have documented agents ramming civilians' cars, detaining U.S. citizens for hours without explanation, and deploying aggressive tactics in residential neighborhoods.
Targeting of vulnerable environments like schools and daycare centers has become increasingly common -- areas that had been designated "protected" or "sensitive locations" under policies dating back to 2011. As one of his first acts in office after being inaugurated last year, Trump rescinded those long-standing protections, eliminating restrictions that had prevented ICE agents from conducting enforcement operations at schools, churches, hospitals, and other sensitive areas without supervisory approval.
In announcing a lawsuit to halt the federal occupation, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison put it plainly: "This is, in essence, a federal invasion of the Twin Cities and Minnesota. And it must stop." U.S. Rep. Angie Craig, who called Christina's detention "shocking," has introduced legislation to keep ICE out of sensitive locations like schools, daycares, and churches. "Schools should be safe places for our teachers to teach and students to learn," she said.
Craig also offered a stark warning to all Americans: "What is happening in America, the path that we are traveling, certainly reminds me of many of the images that we saw in the 1930s in Germany. We should stand up to this lawless administration."
--> Here's how to take action against the militarization of U.S. cities: Congress must fund the Department of Homeland Security by January 30, and spending bills require 60 votes in the Senate -- meaning Democrats have leverage to demand restrictions on ICE. Call your Senators at (202) 224-3121 and tell them: No vote for DHS funding without serious guardrails on how ICE operates and accountability for agents who use excessive force.
To help those working on the ground in Minnesota to protect the Constitutional rights of immigrants, you can support the critical work of the Immigrant Defense Network at https://immigrantdefensenetwork.org/
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To read more about Christina's arrest, visit https://www.twincities.com/2026/01/12/inver-grove-heights-teacher-at-special-education-school-held-by-ice-for-nearly-12-hours and https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/twin-cities-teaching-assistant-us-224933908.html
To see a video of the aftermath of her arrest, visit https://www.facebook.com/reel/1316121270266463
For a new report from The New York Times on the aggressive tactics being used by federal agents occupying Minneapolis, visit https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/13/us/ice-videos-minnesota-trump-immigration.html?unlocked_article_code=1.EFA.MiAX.iGzKD0OhkViE&smid=url-share
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For books for children and teens about the importance of standing up for truth, decency, and justice, even in dark times, visit our blog post, "Dissent Is Patriotic: 50 Books About Women Who Fought for Change," at https://www.amightygirl.com/blog?p=14364
For books for tweens and teens about girls living under real-life authoritarian regimes throughout history that will help them appreciate how precious democracy truly is, visit our blog post "The Fragility of Freedom: Mighty Girl Books About Life Under Authoritarianism" at https://www.amightygirl.com/blog?p=32426
To stay connected with A Mighty Girl, you can sign-up for A Mighty Girl's free email newsletter at https://www.amightygirl.com/forms/newsletter_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
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mickeyrat said:Christina Rank, a 25-year-old classroom assistant, was pulling into the parking lot of Concord Education Center -- a special education school in Inver Grove Heights, Minnesota where she has worked for seven years -- early Monday morning when an ICE vehicle collided with her car. According to witnesses, agents quickly surrounded her vehicle, broke her window, and dragged her out. As masked agents shoved her into the back of their SUV, Christina could be heard sobbing "Why? Why? Why?" before they drove off with her.
This disturbing incident occurred as 3,000 heavily armed federal agents have flooded the Minneapolis area since early January -- one of the largest federal occupations of an American city in U.S. history. Mayor Jacob Frey observed yesterday that federal agents now outnumber local law enforcement by nearly five to one. Many residents have compared the experience to a military occupation, with masked agents in combat gear carrying assault rifles and patrolling quiet residential streets in convoys of unmarked vehicles.
This mirrors a pattern that has emerged across the Minneapolis area over the past two weeks, with numerous residents reporting that federal agents -- who are often seen driving recklessly, speeding, and going through red lights -- have rammed their vehicles. In this case, ICE agents attempted to justify their actions by claiming Christina had hit their vehicle. In video footage from the scene, an agent can be heard saying she "rammed" his car. But multiple witnesses, including coworkers who were present, immediately disputed this account.
One colleague is heard on video saying: "I was right here. I was right here the whole time. You rammed her vehicle." Physical evidence further contradicted the agents' claims. Christina's mother, Sarah Hunkele, noted that the damage was to the passenger side door and rear window -- not the front bumper -- indicating that "they rammed her and then broke her window to pull her out of the vehicle."
Christina was taken to the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement detention facility at Fort Snelling and held for nearly 12 hours. Throughout her detention, her family received almost no information. "You don't know where she is going, where she is at, what is happening," her mother said. "I was told I could not see her and was not able to talk with anyone there. She was told she would get another phone call once they decided if they were going to charge her but we haven't heard anything since," Hunkele added.
"The lack of visibility and accountability is awful," her mother continued. "She is being treated like a criminal for no reason." As of January 15, no charges have been filed against Christina and ICE has not responded to media requests for comment.
Christina's mother questioned why ICE agents were at a special education school in the first place -- and why they used such excessive force on her daughter. "The school is one for students with special needs. Why were they there? What was their purpose being at this location? And what was the purpose behind their excessive force with Christina?"
Concord Education Center is a Level 4 school, meaning it serves students with severe disabilities with very limited verbal skills. Amber Cherrier, a former special education teacher at the school, explained the implications of federal agents operating in such an environment.
"These children will likely not understand the demands shouted by police or ICE," Cherrier observed. "They will likely not be able to comply and are extremely vulnerable around police and ICE, especially if the person does not have extensive training and understanding of neurodivergence and how to de-escalate a situation."
Hunkele said she cannot understand why federal agents showed up with weapons to such a sensitive environment. "The staff is there not only to teach but to protect. For federal agents to show up with guns?" She emphasized that her daughter would never act with ill intent: "She's young. She's very passionate about her work. She's very caring. She would never do anything with ill intent. There was a lot of unnecessary force used in a situation that could have been defused in many other ways."
Christina's case is just one example of the reckless, lawless behavior that federal agents have been engaging in throughout the Minneapolis area over the past several weeks. Numerous videos and witness testimonies have documented agents ramming civilians' cars, detaining U.S. citizens for hours without explanation, and deploying aggressive tactics in residential neighborhoods.
Targeting of vulnerable environments like schools and daycare centers has become increasingly common -- areas that had been designated "protected" or "sensitive locations" under policies dating back to 2011. As one of his first acts in office after being inaugurated last year, Trump rescinded those long-standing protections, eliminating restrictions that had prevented ICE agents from conducting enforcement operations at schools, churches, hospitals, and other sensitive areas without supervisory approval.
In announcing a lawsuit to halt the federal occupation, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison put it plainly: "This is, in essence, a federal invasion of the Twin Cities and Minnesota. And it must stop." U.S. Rep. Angie Craig, who called Christina's detention "shocking," has introduced legislation to keep ICE out of sensitive locations like schools, daycares, and churches. "Schools should be safe places for our teachers to teach and students to learn," she said.
Craig also offered a stark warning to all Americans: "What is happening in America, the path that we are traveling, certainly reminds me of many of the images that we saw in the 1930s in Germany. We should stand up to this lawless administration."
--> Here's how to take action against the militarization of U.S. cities: Congress must fund the Department of Homeland Security by January 30, and spending bills require 60 votes in the Senate -- meaning Democrats have leverage to demand restrictions on ICE. Call your Senators at (202) 224-3121 and tell them: No vote for DHS funding without serious guardrails on how ICE operates and accountability for agents who use excessive force.
To help those working on the ground in Minnesota to protect the Constitutional rights of immigrants, you can support the critical work of the Immigrant Defense Network at https://immigrantdefensenetwork.org/
----
To read more about Christina's arrest, visit https://www.twincities.com/2026/01/12/inver-grove-heights-teacher-at-special-education-school-held-by-ice-for-nearly-12-hours and https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/twin-cities-teaching-assistant-us-224933908.html
To see a video of the aftermath of her arrest, visit https://www.facebook.com/reel/1316121270266463
For a new report from The New York Times on the aggressive tactics being used by federal agents occupying Minneapolis, visit https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/13/us/ice-videos-minnesota-trump-immigration.html?unlocked_article_code=1.EFA.MiAX.iGzKD0OhkViE&smid=url-share
----
For books for children and teens about the importance of standing up for truth, decency, and justice, even in dark times, visit our blog post, "Dissent Is Patriotic: 50 Books About Women Who Fought for Change," at https://www.amightygirl.com/blog?p=14364
For books for tweens and teens about girls living under real-life authoritarian regimes throughout history that will help them appreciate how precious democracy truly is, visit our blog post "The Fragility of Freedom: Mighty Girl Books About Life Under Authoritarianism" at https://www.amightygirl.com/blog?p=32426
To stay connected with A Mighty Girl, you can sign-up for A Mighty Girl's free email newsletter at https://www.amightygirl.com/forms/newsletter
Good god, horrors. I hope those agents end up in prison some day where they belong."It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.0 -
* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Anyone know the douche without the mask, filming? Maybe was on the rail, grabbed your ass, called you a bitch? That guy without a mask, filming? Anyone know him?
Bet he’s got supporters here though. Maybe sending him flowers and starting a GoFundMe, eh?
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTiWTUGDR8j/?igsh=emdka2pqNmt6bzJm09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©0 -
Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.0 -
A medical examiner told the family of 55-year-old Cuban immigrant, Geraldo Lunas Campos, unless a toxicology report comes back with something, he will likely rule his death a homicide.
But DHS claims that Lunas Campos died taking his own life. https://trib.al/grAyZZZ_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
Its both.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.
There are non-religious Jews and there are people who convert to Judaism.
It's both a religion and a people.Post edited by mace1229 on0 -
Agents rappelled from a Black Hawk helicopter in a massive show of force. Authorities said Tren de Aragua “terrorists” had taken over the building. But after the cameras were gone, federal prosecutors did not charge anyone.
Read our full investigation (published Nov. 2025): https://propub.li/3YEjEp9_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.0 -
Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.0 -
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.0 -
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.0 -
I'm pretty sure you do not have to produce ID unless there you have committed crime or a traffic violation. But I don't know for sure, so instead of this petty "you are 100% wrong" nonsense , maybe someone can provide some valid information.Let's stop with the middle school bickering b.s.. It's no wonder this place is avoided by so many forum members these days."It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0
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You “may” end up in the back of a cop car if your rights are violated. And below is a link to a document from the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center making repeated references to probable cause being required for vehicle searches, and the related scotus cases.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.0 -
nope. I'm canadian and even I know this. If you refuse to provide ID and end up in the back of a police car without provable probable cause in court, you will win the court case, and you might even be able to sue, depending on circumstances.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.Your boos mean nothing to me, for I have seen what makes you cheer0 -
but it is true...unless the officer makes up some bullshit like "I smelled marijuana" or somethingGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
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I think you're both right and are arguing over semantics.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
They can't just demand to see your ID. They do need reasonable suspicion like you said. But the bar is so low for that, anything can really qualify. You changed lanes too quickly, or too slowly, your turn was too wide, or too sharp. It's all subjective. If law enforcement wants to see your ID, they can find a way to argue reasonable suspicion.
Also, I have been asked for my ID before in my late teens/early 20s (and as recent as about 7 or 8 years ago) for some very stupid reasons. And I always complied, and its worked out for me. Even gave permission to have the car searched one time knowing they wouldn't find anything illegal. I imagine it wouldn't have gone as well if I refused.
The most recent one I took a half day for a dr appointment, I was trying out Pokemon Go at the park down the street from my house. It was adjacent to an elementary school. Apparently some staff or parents thought I was a creeper just walking around and called the cops. 2 cops showed up, asked for my ID and what I was doing. I explained I had a couple free hours and was trying Pokemon Go, they laughed, still asked for my ID and ran it. Then we all went on our way. I probably could have refused, said its a public park and to go F yourself. But I doubt I would have benefitted from doing that.0
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