Immigration
Comments
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mace1229 said:
I think you're both right and are arguing over semantics.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
They can't just demand to see your ID. They do need reasonable suspicion like you said. But the bar is so low for that, anything can really qualify. You changed lanes too quickly, or too slowly, your turn was too wide, or too sharp. It's all subjective. If law enforcement wants to see your ID, they can find a way to argue reasonable suspicion.
Also, I have been asked for my ID before in my late teens/early 20s (and as recent as about 7 or 8 years ago) for some very stupid reasons. And I always complied, and its worked out for me. Even gave permission to have the car searched one time knowing they wouldn't find anything illegal. I imagine it wouldn't have gone as well if I refused.
The most recent one I took a half day for a dr appointment, I was trying out Pokemon Go at the park down the street from my house. It was adjacent to an elementary school. Apparently some staff or parents thought I was a creeper just walking around and called the cops. 2 cops showed up, asked for my ID and what I was doing. I explained I had a couple free hours and was trying Pokemon Go, they laughed, still asked for my ID and ran it. Then we all went on our way. I probably could have refused, said its a public park and to go F yourself. But I doubt I would have benefitted from doing that.Yeah, you never know. I got pulled over once and asked for I.D. I asked why? The cop said, for drinking beer while driving. I showed him the can. This is what I showed him:He help me up literally for a half an hour. Some cops are great. Some are about as useful as hemorrhoids!
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Actually, I take that back. I got pulled over a few months ago for a brake light check. I drive stick, so I wasn't using my brakes sitting a red light. Cop came up behind me, flashed his lights and pulled over over. He knew right away, even said "O you drive stick, that's why your brake lights weren't on." still went through the whole process though. Same result, probably could have refused and argued no reasonable suspicion. But I was on my way a lot quicker just by showing my ID.mace1229 said:
I think you're both right and are arguing over semantics.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
They can't just demand to see your ID. They do need reasonable suspicion like you said. But the bar is so low for that, anything can really qualify. You changed lanes too quickly, or too slowly, your turn was too wide, or too sharp. It's all subjective. If law enforcement wants to see your ID, they can find a way to argue reasonable suspicion.
Also, I have been asked for my ID before in my late teens/early 20s (and as recent as about 7 or 8 years ago) for some very stupid reasons. And I always complied, and its worked out for me. Even gave permission to have the car searched one time knowing they wouldn't find anything illegal. I imagine it wouldn't have gone as well if I refused.
The most recent one I took a half day for a dr appointment, I was trying out Pokemon Go at the park down the street from my house. It was adjacent to an elementary school. Apparently some staff or parents thought I was a creeper just walking around and called the cops. 2 cops showed up, asked for my ID and what I was doing. I explained I had a couple free hours and was trying Pokemon Go, they laughed, still asked for my ID and ran it. Then we all went on our way. I probably could have refused, said its a public park and to go F yourself. But I doubt I would have benefitted from doing that.Post edited by mace1229 on0 -
You don’t have a right to refuse to show your license in a traffic stop, but they do need probable cause to pull you over. I’m talking about ice demanding ID from people not driving and just walking.mace1229 said:
Actually, I take that back. I got pulled over a few months ago for a brake light check. I drive stick, so I wasn't using my brakes sitting a red light. Cop came up behind me, flashed his lights and pulled over over. He knew right away, even said "O you drive stick, that's why your brake lights weren't on." still went through the whole process though. Same result, probably could have refused and argued no reasonable suspicion. But I was on my way a lot quicker just by showing my ID.mace1229 said:
I think you're both right and are arguing over semantics.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
They can't just demand to see your ID. They do need reasonable suspicion like you said. But the bar is so low for that, anything can really qualify. You changed lanes too quickly, or too slowly, your turn was too wide, or too sharp. It's all subjective. If law enforcement wants to see your ID, they can find a way to argue reasonable suspicion.
Also, I have been asked for my ID before in my late teens/early 20s (and as recent as about 7 or 8 years ago) for some very stupid reasons. And I always complied, and its worked out for me. Even gave permission to have the car searched one time knowing they wouldn't find anything illegal. I imagine it wouldn't have gone as well if I refused.
The most recent one I took a half day for a dr appointment, I was trying out Pokemon Go at the park down the street from my house. It was adjacent to an elementary school. Apparently some staff or parents thought I was a creeper just walking around and called the cops. 2 cops showed up, asked for my ID and what I was doing. I explained I had a couple free hours and was trying Pokemon Go, they laughed, still asked for my ID and ran it. Then we all went on our way. I probably could have refused, said its a public park and to go F yourself. But I doubt I would have benefitted from doing that.Post edited by Go Beavers on0 -
marijuana is legal here, so they can't use that one.Gern Blansten said:
but it is true...unless the officer makes up some bullshit like "I smelled marijuana" or somethingGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
Will not help you on the side of the road. Just watch a few videos. Failure to provide ID can be construed as obstruction. That is probable cause.HughFreakingDillon said:
nope. I'm canadian and even I know this. If you refuse to provide ID and end up in the back of a police car without provable probable cause in court, you will win the court case, and you might even be able to sue, depending on circumstances.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.0 -
k now you're talking about traffic stops. you started your argument claiming you need to produce at to law enforcement (not just police) in any situation.Your boos mean nothing to me, for I have seen what makes you cheer0
-
Go on YouTube and search Sovereign Citizens pulled over by police. They 100% never end well for the sovcit.Get_Right said:
Will not help you on the side of the road. Just watch a few videos. Failure to provide ID can be construed as obstruction. That is probable cause.HughFreakingDillon said:
nope. I'm canadian and even I know this. If you refuse to provide ID and end up in the back of a police car without provable probable cause in court, you will win the court case, and you might even be able to sue, depending on circumstances.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.0 -
I have a friend who got pulled over up in NH going to a festival the cop wanted to search his car my friend said no way unless you get a warrant and he said he was protected by the 4th A! Guess what the cop sped away totally frustrated that he couldn’t just search the carGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.jesus greets me looks just like me ....0 -
josevolution said:
I have a friend who got pulled over up in NH going to a festival the cop wanted to search his car my friend said no way unless you get a warrant and he said he was protected by the 4th A! Guess what the cop sped away totally frustrated that he couldn’t just search the carGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
Glad to hear that. Try it in Texas or Florida and the result might not be the same.0 -
HughFreakingDillon said:k now you're talking about traffic stops. you started your argument claiming you need to produce at to law enforcement (not just police) in any situation.Nuance, lol.0
-
Bentleyspop said:
Go on YouTube and search Sovereign Citizens pulled over by police. They 100% never end well for the sovcit.Get_Right said:
Will not help you on the side of the road. Just watch a few videos. Failure to provide ID can be construed as obstruction. That is probable cause.HughFreakingDillon said:
nope. I'm canadian and even I know this. If you refuse to provide ID and end up in the back of a police car without provable probable cause in court, you will win the court case, and you might even be able to sue, depending on circumstances.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
It is quite entertaining.0 -
Because the cops are used to people relinquishing their rights in those states so they feel entitled?Get_Right said:josevolution said:
I have a friend who got pulled over up in NH going to a festival the cop wanted to search his car my friend said no way unless you get a warrant and he said he was protected by the 4th A! Guess what the cop sped away totally frustrated that he couldn’t just search the carGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
Glad to hear that. Try it in Texas or Florida and the result might not be the same.0 -
Fact specific but I think it more because those cops may be more aggressive. Just waxing poetic.Go Beavers said:
Because the cops are used to people relinquishing their rights in those states so they feel entitled?Get_Right said:josevolution said:
I have a friend who got pulled over up in NH going to a festival the cop wanted to search his car my friend said no way unless you get a warrant and he said he was protected by the 4th A! Guess what the cop sped away totally frustrated that he couldn’t just search the carGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
Glad to hear that. Try it in Texas or Florida and the result might not be the same.0 -
The funny part is he told the cop he’d wait there for him to return with the warrant knowing that the cops was not going to go and get one! He gave him a speeding ticket and left pissed offjesus greets me looks just like me ....0
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ICE has no legal right to ask for the ID of a US Citizen. That's fact. They ask me, I don't have to give it. They also can't make traffic stops or enforce anything besides immigration laws. Now, they've made up a lot of bullshitb to push their "impeding" narrative, but if you're paying attention, they just fuck with the US citizens and make them sit in holding for 8 - 10 hours before releasing because they've got jack shit for charges and they know it. They just keep violating 4th amendment rights because they are unleashed dogs with no moral compass and no supervisors holding them to account. Come on over to MN and see first hand what this shit looks like. Commandos lawlessly roaming the streets stopping anyone who's brown, black or has an accent and then roughing up and detaining anyone who's white that tries to record them or track their activity. It's the most obvious example of fascism/authoritarianism anyone has seen since WWII, but you do you and bury your head some more.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.It's a hopeless situation...0 -
tbergs said:
ICE has no legal right to ask for the ID of a US Citizen. That's fact. They ask me, I don't have to give it. They also can't make traffic stops or enforce anything besides immigration laws. Now, they've made up a lot of bullshitb to push their "impeding" narrative, but if you're paying attention, they just fuck with the US citizens and make them sit in holding for 8 - 10 hours before releasing because they've got jack shit for charges and they know it. They just keep violating 4th amendment rights because they are unleashed dogs with no moral compass and no supervisors holding them to account. Come on over to MN and see first hand what this shit looks like. Commandos lawlessly roaming the streets stopping anyone who's brown, black or has an accent and then roughing up and detaining anyone who's white that tries to record them or track their activity. It's the most obvious example of fascism/authoritarianism anyone has seen since WWII, but you do you and bury your head some more.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
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* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Yup, no comparison to Nazis. None at all. Might as well wipe your ass with the constitution.
Judge orders release of Liberian man arrested in Minneapolis by agents with a battering ram
A federal judge in Minnesota has ordered the release of a Liberian man after heavily armed immigration agents broke into his home using a battering ram and arrested him
A federal judge in Minnesota on Thursday ordered the release of a Liberian man four days after heavily armed immigration agents broke into his home using a battering ram and arrested him.
U.S. District Judge Jeffrey Bryan said in his ruling that the agents violated Garrison Gibson’s Fourth Amendment rights against unlawful search and seizure.
“To arrest him, Respondents forcibly entered Garrison G.’s home without his consent and without a judicial warrant,” he said.
The Department of Homeland Security has been ramping up immigration arrests in Minnesota in what the department has called its largest enforcement operation. DHS says its officers have arrested more than 2,500 people since Nov. 29.
Marc Prokosch, Gibson’s attorney, said he was “thrilled” by the judge's order. He had filed a habeas corpus petition, used by courts to determine if an imprisonment is legal, and called the arrest a “blatant constitutional violation" since the agents did not have a proper warrant.
Gibson’s wife was inside their Minneapolis home with the couple’s 9-year-old child during the raid. Prokosch said she was deeply shaken by the arrest.
Gibson, 37, was being held at an immigration detention center in Albert Lea after being held at a large camp on the Fort Bliss Army base in El Paso, Texas, according to ICE’s detainee locator.
DHS did not immediately respond to an email from The Associated Press requesting comment on the order and has not responded to a prior email with follow-up questions about Gibson’s case.
Gibson, who fled the Liberian civil war as a child, had been ordered removed from the U.S., apparently because of a 2008 drug conviction that was later dismissed by the courts. He had remained in the country legally under what’s known as an order of supervision, with the requirement that he meet regularly with immigration authorities.
Only days before his arrest, Gibson had checked in with immigration authorities at regional immigration offices — the same building where agents have been staging enforcement raids in recent weeks.
Bryan said in his Thursday order that he agrees with Gibson's assertions that since he had already been released on an order of supervision, officials “violated applicable regulations” by not giving him enough notice that it had been revoked and the reasoning, as well as not providing him an interview right after he was detained.
Tricia McLaughlin, a spokesperson for the Homeland Security Department, had said that Gibson has “a lengthy rap sheet (that) includes robbery, drug possession with intent to sell, possession of a deadly weapon, malicious destruction and theft.” She did not indicate if those were arrests, charges or convictions.
Court records indicate Gibson’s legal history shows only the one felony in 2008, along with a few traffic violations, minor drug arrests and an arrest for riding public transportation without paying the fare.
The Twin Cities — the latest target in President Donald Trump’s immigration enforcement campaign — has been wracked by fear and anger in the aftermath of the killing of Renee Good, who was shot Jan. 7 during a confrontation with agents. On Wednesday, a man was shot and wounded by an immigration officer who had been attacked with a shovel and broom handle.
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Crazy folks 40% approve of ICE tactics! I know more folks disapprove but still 40%jesus greets me looks just like me ....0
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tbergs said:
ICE has no legal right to ask for the ID of a US Citizen. That's fact. They ask me, I don't have to give it. They also can't make traffic stops or enforce anything besides immigration laws. Now, they've made up a lot of bullshitb to push their "impeding" narrative, but if you're paying attention, they just fuck with the US citizens and make them sit in holding for 8 - 10 hours before releasing because they've got jack shit for charges and they know it. They just keep violating 4th amendment rights because they are unleashed dogs with no moral compass and no supervisors holding them to account. Come on over to MN and see first hand what this shit looks like. Commandos lawlessly roaming the streets stopping anyone who's brown, black or has an accent and then roughing up and detaining anyone who's white that tries to record them or track their activity. It's the most obvious example of fascism/authoritarianism anyone has seen since WWII, but you do you and bury your head some more.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
Yes they do. And yes you do. How do they verify you are a citizen? Keep living in a dreamworld of hypotheticals and constitutional theory. My head is not buried but speaks of reality. Provide your ID and get on with your day. Something might not be right if you even find yourself in one of these situations. Everything is on body cams. Reality is that we are living in a time of increased and aggressive immigration enforcement. That does not mean it is necessarily unlawful.0 -
This judge doesn’t agreeGet_Right said:tbergs said:
ICE has no legal right to ask for the ID of a US Citizen. That's fact. They ask me, I don't have to give it. They also can't make traffic stops or enforce anything besides immigration laws. Now, they've made up a lot of bullshitb to push their "impeding" narrative, but if you're paying attention, they just fuck with the US citizens and make them sit in holding for 8 - 10 hours before releasing because they've got jack shit for charges and they know it. They just keep violating 4th amendment rights because they are unleashed dogs with no moral compass and no supervisors holding them to account. Come on over to MN and see first hand what this shit looks like. Commandos lawlessly roaming the streets stopping anyone who's brown, black or has an accent and then roughing up and detaining anyone who's white that tries to record them or track their activity. It's the most obvious example of fascism/authoritarianism anyone has seen since WWII, but you do you and bury your head some more.Get_Right said:
Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.Go Beavers said:
Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side say they’re culturally Jewish.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:Halifax2TheMax said:Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:
well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making.Get_Right said:Go Beavers said:
And people can do a comparison of the massGet_Right said:Go Beavers said:
If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities.Get_Right said:PJ_Soul said:Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?Get_Right said:gimmesometruth27 said:
again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.Get_Right said:HughFreakingDillon said:first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny.
Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads.
maybe read about those things and then comment.
I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise.
Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.
I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.
I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few.
I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.
Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.
EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.
In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?
There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.
Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.
And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?
You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life. Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.
So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”, cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.
It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution.* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.
A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.
I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court.
No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch.
A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know.
You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.
Yes they do. And yes you do. How do they verify you are a citizen? Keep living in a dreamworld of hypotheticals and constitutional theory. My head is not buried but speaks of reality. Provide your ID and get on with your day. Something might not be right if you even find yourself in one of these situations. Everything is on body cams. Reality is that we are living in a time of increased and aggressive immigration enforcement. That does not mean it is necessarily unlawful.
Judge orders federal agents cannot retaliate against, arrest or detain peaceful protesters in Minnesota operation. https://cnn.it/3Zi5p9G
https://share.google/mz2WP6gcZZ3JbGk48
jesus greets me looks just like me ....0
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