Billie Eilish criticize artists releasing several vinyl variants

BF25394

pjl44 said:

BF25394 said:

pjl44 said:

Given the amount of energy Pearl Jam has put into advocating for climate-related issues I tend to believe that if putting out a single black pressing made any sort of difference that's what they would do 

I wouldn't assume that. Everything makes a difference. Manufacturing bits of plastic that wouldn't exist if you didn't choose to offer them uses resources that wouldn't otherwise be used. Of course, black records and CDs also consume resources, but their primary purpose is to allow people to own the music. The variants' primary purpose is to be collected. Sure, some people will buy only one variant (and not the standard black) for the purpose of listening to it, but most of the variants sold will be to people who are buying them in addition to the black version and/or the CD. I wouldn't assume that Pearl Jam has thought about the implications of this.

Possibly but you have to take a pretty cynical view of their activism to believe that's the case

Not necessarily cynical. One can be conscientious in general but also not fully aware of every externality of one's actions.

mookeywrench

I can't find where it says 'collect them all'. Can someone point me to it?

Tim Simmons

The thought is there is a portion of the fanbase that will try to collect them all. With a minimum of 1500, it’s not that many people who can. 

I don’t think this is like a Taylor Sift or Olivia Rodrigo situation where people are tracking them all down to get all the tracks. It’s a little more fun than that. 

But yeah, people need to check themselves before being outraged for whatever reason it may be that upsets them about this. 

curmudgeoness

Does Billie Eilish tour? If so, how does she get to the concert venues? How do her fans get there?

Let's assume that some people will purchase every vinyl color variant. How/is this worse than collecting, say, Zippo lighters, t-shirts, concert posters, beanie babies, baseball cards, rubber bands, Lego sets, velvet Elvis paintings?

So perhaps Spotify or Apple Music is considered more sustainable, because less plastic is involved. Okay -- but what about the manufacturing conditions for our iPhones? What about the carbon footprint involved in transporting those iPhones from China to the consumer? What about the source of the electricity used to charge my iPhone? If I rent or live in an area where solar panels don't make sense, should I refrain from buying laptops, iPads and iPhones because they need electricity? Should I first ensure that my local electric company uses only clean power?

I believe climate change is real and is a real, large problem facing everyone on the planet, whether they like it or not. I put solar panels on my home, I recycle, I own a PHEV and two hybrids. I annoy my husband by turning off every single unnecessary light in the house. But I've also been shamed and scolded for eating almonds because so much water is required to grow them; when I point out that almonds are one of the few foods I can tolerate comfortably, it is suggested that perhaps I should just learn to be hungry. This kind of argument is exhausting and, in my opinion, does little to build support for what really is an important issue.

We all can reduce our carbon footprints. At the same time, life is short, and if a few dozen fanatics decide that they absolutely have to have every vinyl variant, I don't think that's what's going to push the planet past the tipping point.

Jimmydean55

As I said before…

Tim Simmons

vant0037

In my eyes in my eyes 

Loujoe

^I like the soundtrack buzzing in your head!

BF25394

curmudgeoness said:

Does Billie Eilish tour? If so, how does she get to the concert venues? How do her fans get there?

Let's assume that some people will purchase every vinyl color variant. How/is this worse than collecting, say, Zippo lighters, t-shirts, concert posters, beanie babies, baseball cards, rubber bands, Lego sets, velvet Elvis paintings?

So perhaps Spotify or Apple Music is considered more sustainable, because less plastic is involved. Okay -- but what about the manufacturing conditions for our iPhones? What about the carbon footprint involved in transporting those iPhones from China to the consumer? What about the source of the electricity used to charge my iPhone? If I rent or live in an area where solar panels don't make sense, should I refrain from buying laptops, iPads and iPhones because they need electricity? Should I first ensure that my local electric company uses only clean power?

I believe climate change is real and is a real, large problem facing everyone on the planet, whether they like it or not. I put solar panels on my home, I recycle, I own a PHEV and two hybrids. I annoy my husband by turning off every single unnecessary light in the house. But I've also been shamed and scolded for eating almonds because so much water is required to grow them; when I point out that almonds are one of the few foods I can tolerate comfortably, it is suggested that perhaps I should just learn to be hungry. This kind of argument is exhausting and, in my opinion, does little to build support for what really is an important issue.

We all can reduce our carbon footprints. At the same time, life is short, and if a few dozen fanatics decide that they absolutely have to have every vinyl variant, I don't think that's what's going to push the planet past the tipping point.

You posit a false choice between all and nothing.

With respect to the other collectibles, they don't have the same externalities as products derived from fossil fuels. And the colored variant records are truly superfluous. You can wear multiple T-shirts regularly. You can hang multiple posters on the wall. You can build the Lego sets. And you can listen to the record-- but is there really any reason that you would listen to each of multiple records that differ only in color?

I'm not arguing that vinyl variants should be outlawed, but there are valid criticisms to be made for the production of excessive numbers of variants, both from a sustainability standpoint and from a fan-exploitation standpoint.

To go back to a point I made earlier, you can still take small measures. If lots of individuals take small measures, they may add up to a real difference. But even still: I am a vegetarian for primarily ethical reasons. I don't want to contribute to a system that results in the suffering of animals. If the suffering of one cow, chicken, pig or fish was avoided by my not having eaten any meat for the past 13-plus years, that's enough for me to feel like my choice was worthwhile whether anyone else abstains from meat or not. And, yes, you could say, well, you live on land that was at one time wilderness, and the clearing of the wilderness has devastated species throughout the history of civilization, so aren't you participating in a system that resulted in the suffering of animals? And maybe you'd have a point, but it doesn't mean that I should throw up my hands and start eating hamburgers because it's all pointless. I don't try to stop other people from eating meat, although if they ask me why I don't eat it, I'll answer honestly. And I don't try to stop people from buying multiple copies of the same record (although I will often argue bemusedly about how bizarre it is that this once-obsolete technology has enjoyed an inexplicable resurgence).

bootlegger10

Records are for musical elitists.  It makes them feel like they understand music better than others.  

mookeywrench

bootlegger10 said:

Records are for musical elitists.  It makes them feel like they understand music better than others.  

Yup, just like keyboards and fan club message boards.

curmudgeoness

BF25394 said:

curmudgeoness said:

Does Billie Eilish tour? If so, how does she get to the concert venues? How do her fans get there?

Let's assume that some people will purchase every vinyl color variant. How/is this worse than collecting, say, Zippo lighters, t-shirts, concert posters, beanie babies, baseball cards, rubber bands, Lego sets, velvet Elvis paintings?

So perhaps Spotify or Apple Music is considered more sustainable, because less plastic is involved. Okay -- but what about the manufacturing conditions for our iPhones? What about the carbon footprint involved in transporting those iPhones from China to the consumer? What about the source of the electricity used to charge my iPhone? If I rent or live in an area where solar panels don't make sense, should I refrain from buying laptops, iPads and iPhones because they need electricity? Should I first ensure that my local electric company uses only clean power?

I believe climate change is real and is a real, large problem facing everyone on the planet, whether they like it or not. I put solar panels on my home, I recycle, I own a PHEV and two hybrids. I annoy my husband by turning off every single unnecessary light in the house. But I've also been shamed and scolded for eating almonds because so much water is required to grow them; when I point out that almonds are one of the few foods I can tolerate comfortably, it is suggested that perhaps I should just learn to be hungry. This kind of argument is exhausting and, in my opinion, does little to build support for what really is an important issue.

We all can reduce our carbon footprints. At the same time, life is short, and if a few dozen fanatics decide that they absolutely have to have every vinyl variant, I don't think that's what's going to push the planet past the tipping point.

You posit a false choice between all and nothing.

With respect to the other collectibles, they don't have the same externalities as products derived from fossil fuels. And the colored variant records are truly superfluous. You can wear multiple T-shirts regularly. You can hang multiple posters on the wall. You can build the Lego sets. And you can listen to the record-- but is there really any reason that you would listen to each of multiple records that differ only in color?

I'm not arguing that vinyl variants should be outlawed, but there are valid criticisms to be made for the production of excessive numbers of variants, both from a sustainability standpoint and from a fan-exploitation standpoint.

To go back to a point I made earlier, you can still take small measures. If lots of individuals take small measures, they may add up to a real difference. But even still: I am a vegetarian for primarily ethical reasons. I don't want to contribute to a system that results in the suffering of animals. If the suffering of one cow, chicken, pig or fish was avoided by my not having eaten any meat for the past 13-plus years, that's enough for me to feel like my choice was worthwhile whether anyone else abstains from meat or not. And, yes, you could say, well, you live on land that was at one time wilderness, and the clearing of the wilderness has devastated species throughout the history of civilization, so aren't you participating in a system that resulted in the suffering of animals? And maybe you'd have a point, but it doesn't mean that I should throw up my hands and start eating hamburgers because it's all pointless. I don't try to stop other people from eating meat, although if they ask me why I don't eat it, I'll answer honestly. And I don't try to stop people from buying multiple copies of the same record (although I will often argue bemusedly about how bizarre it is that this once-obsolete technology has enjoyed an inexplicable resurgence).

Well, I don't own a turntable, so when I look at vinyl variants I only can imagine purchasing the ones that I found attractive and framing them or otherwise displaying them. I can't imagine another reason to purchase multiple versions. I don't do this, and I don't plan to do this. But I think we both know that there are people out there who own unopened Benaroya vinyls because they collect these things for the sake of collecting them. It doesn't make sense to me, but neither do beanie babies, Zippo lighters, etc.

I agree: we all can make small changes. We all should make small changes.  I'm not saying, screw it, let your car idle for an hour so you can sit in a warm or cooled car, etc. But I also don't get taking a stand about LPs and deciding that that's a battle worth fighting. If we go back to food for a minute: I eat very little beef -- maybe 4X/year, no pork. I like (sustainable) fish, but my husband's allergic to fish, so our protein comes from chicken, tofu and dairy.  I've been mindful of meat consumption since childhood, when I learned about the environmental impact of eating meat. But I also train for three hours/day, and I need fuel, and I cannot tolerate peanuts, cashews, etc. So when I look at the various changes we have made, and then someone tears into me for eating almonds, or tells me that it's bad that I run 3000 miles/ year because I go through so many pairs of shoes, I wonder how many changes they have made to their daily routine.

tl;dr: While I agree that we should make changes in our daily lives with an eye to sustainability, I think it is unrealistic to assume that everyone will make all the changes or the same changes that we would make. 

And I don't think we really disagree all that much; why would artists release multiple variants if they did not hope that fans would buy more than one variant? (Or why would Time magazine release four different Taylor Swift covers?) But we also can simply choose not to buy all of them -- or any of them. 

HesCalledDyer

bootlegger10 said:

Records are for musical elitists.  It makes them feel like they understand music better than others.  

Hifisenberg says:

BF25394

curmudgeoness said:

BF25394 said:

curmudgeoness said:

Does Billie Eilish tour? If so, how does she get to the concert venues? How do her fans get there?

Let's assume that some people will purchase every vinyl color variant. How/is this worse than collecting, say, Zippo lighters, t-shirts, concert posters, beanie babies, baseball cards, rubber bands, Lego sets, velvet Elvis paintings?

So perhaps Spotify or Apple Music is considered more sustainable, because less plastic is involved. Okay -- but what about the manufacturing conditions for our iPhones? What about the carbon footprint involved in transporting those iPhones from China to the consumer? What about the source of the electricity used to charge my iPhone? If I rent or live in an area where solar panels don't make sense, should I refrain from buying laptops, iPads and iPhones because they need electricity? Should I first ensure that my local electric company uses only clean power?

I believe climate change is real and is a real, large problem facing everyone on the planet, whether they like it or not. I put solar panels on my home, I recycle, I own a PHEV and two hybrids. I annoy my husband by turning off every single unnecessary light in the house. But I've also been shamed and scolded for eating almonds because so much water is required to grow them; when I point out that almonds are one of the few foods I can tolerate comfortably, it is suggested that perhaps I should just learn to be hungry. This kind of argument is exhausting and, in my opinion, does little to build support for what really is an important issue.

We all can reduce our carbon footprints. At the same time, life is short, and if a few dozen fanatics decide that they absolutely have to have every vinyl variant, I don't think that's what's going to push the planet past the tipping point.

You posit a false choice between all and nothing.

With respect to the other collectibles, they don't have the same externalities as products derived from fossil fuels. And the colored variant records are truly superfluous. You can wear multiple T-shirts regularly. You can hang multiple posters on the wall. You can build the Lego sets. And you can listen to the record-- but is there really any reason that you would listen to each of multiple records that differ only in color?

I'm not arguing that vinyl variants should be outlawed, but there are valid criticisms to be made for the production of excessive numbers of variants, both from a sustainability standpoint and from a fan-exploitation standpoint.

To go back to a point I made earlier, you can still take small measures. If lots of individuals take small measures, they may add up to a real difference. But even still: I am a vegetarian for primarily ethical reasons. I don't want to contribute to a system that results in the suffering of animals. If the suffering of one cow, chicken, pig or fish was avoided by my not having eaten any meat for the past 13-plus years, that's enough for me to feel like my choice was worthwhile whether anyone else abstains from meat or not. And, yes, you could say, well, you live on land that was at one time wilderness, and the clearing of the wilderness has devastated species throughout the history of civilization, so aren't you participating in a system that resulted in the suffering of animals? And maybe you'd have a point, but it doesn't mean that I should throw up my hands and start eating hamburgers because it's all pointless. I don't try to stop other people from eating meat, although if they ask me why I don't eat it, I'll answer honestly. And I don't try to stop people from buying multiple copies of the same record (although I will often argue bemusedly about how bizarre it is that this once-obsolete technology has enjoyed an inexplicable resurgence).

Well, I don't own a turntable, so when I look at vinyl variants I only can imagine purchasing the ones that I found attractive and framing them or otherwise displaying them. I can't imagine another reason to purchase multiple versions. I don't do this, and I don't plan to do this. But I think we both know that there are people out there who own unopened Benaroya vinyls because they collect these things for the sake of collecting them. It doesn't make sense to me, but neither do beanie babies, Zippo lighters, etc.

I agree: we all can make small changes. We all should make small changes.  I'm not saying, screw it, let your car idle for an hour so you can sit in a warm or cooled car, etc. But I also don't get taking a stand about LPs and deciding that that's a battle worth fighting. If we go back to food for a minute: I eat very little beef -- maybe 4X/year, no pork. I like (sustainable) fish, but my husband's allergic to fish, so our protein comes from chicken, tofu and dairy.  I've been mindful of meat consumption since childhood, when I learned about the environmental impact of eating meat. But I also train for three hours/day, and I need fuel, and I cannot tolerate peanuts, cashews, etc. So when I look at the various changes we have made, and then someone tears into me for eating almonds, or tells me that it's bad that I run 3000 miles/ year because I go through so many pairs of shoes, I wonder how many changes they have made to their daily routine.

tl;dr: While I agree that we should make changes in our daily lives with an eye to sustainability, I think it is unrealistic to assume that everyone will make all the changes or the same changes that we would make. 

And I don't think we really disagree all that much; why would artists release multiple variants if they did not hope that fans would buy more than one variant? (Or why would Time magazine release four different Taylor Swift covers?) But we also can simply choose not to buy all of them -- or any of them. 

I'm thinking about it from the manufacturing and distribution standpoint, i.e., the choice the artist makes to put these things out there. I'm not assuming that everyone will make the same choices as consumers that I do. My point is that not doing things that bother your conscience is worthwhile whether or not other people make the same choices. And also that we can make a difference in small ways, even if we can't individually eliminate large-scale problems. Our small changes as individuals add up, but also each of us as individuals making small changes will add up to meaningful changes in the aggregate. One person refusing to ride the segregated buses in Montgomery wouldn't have moved the needle. Thousands of people refusing to ride the buses did. Basically, what I'm saying is that the production of superfluous records is the biggest issue this country has faced since segregation and that, by declining to buy these superfluous records, I am today's Rosa Parks. (For the irony-challenged among us, yes, that is a joke. And further, yes, I understand that Rosa Parks didn't make her name by boycotting the buses, but by refusing to change seats to accommodate a white person. And she did a lot more than just that single action to advance the civil-rights movement.)

I will add that the world is complicated and even the most conscientious person will likely have to make certain compromises. I do everything I can to avoid single-use plastics, and I've turned away or refused thousands of plastic bags, straws and cutlery even at the same time that I drive a car whose tires shed microplastics into the environment that are literally everywhere now, including in our tissues and bloodstreams. Does that make me a hypocrite, or just someone who's trying to do what he can but who doesn't always have a realistic alternative choice in every situation?

It is true that Time had multiple Taylor Swift Person-of-the-Year covers, but any conscientious consumer would only buy the one where she's holding her cat. I know I did.

BF25394

bootlegger10 said:

Records are for musical elitists.  It makes them feel like they understand music better than others.  

That's probably an unfair generalization, but there is definitely something peculiar about the fact that many* of the same people who hastened the obsolescence of this format by embracing the CD in the late 1980s because they deemed it more convenient and better-sounding and because of its portability decided at some point within the past ten years or so that only vinyl is satisfactory. I can't think of any other example of an obsolete technology coming back into vogue to such an extent, and it is a strange phenomenon.

* I say "many," recognizing that there are some true diehard vinyl fans out there who never abandoned the format and who always believed it to be superior to the CD. But that's not most of the people buying records in 2024.

Hawk123

tschav

Weston1283

tschav said:

Lol.... ok

lastexitlondon

Goal posts successfully moved

bicyclejoe

Of course, the sad reality is that streaming music is more damaging to the planet than producing vinyl records. Storing and processing downloaded music require vast data centers that use tremendous amounts of resources and energy.

bicyclejoe

tschav said:

Punctuation: It’s not Billie’s friend.

bicyclejoe

BF25394 said:

Because there are bigger things that one could do to help the world does not mean that one should not do small things to help the world.

Our individual choices add up. I have always driven a small car that gets high mileage per gallon. Does this amount to a "drop in the bucket" of oil consumption? Well, yes and no. It actually adds up to thousands of barrels of oil compared to a larger car or SUV over the lifetime of the car, which is figuratively, though not literally, a "drop in the bucket." However, if each of us makes similar choices, then we can collectively put a dent in the problem. But I don't throw my hands up and trade in my car when I see someone blow by me in a Hummer. I still do my part.

It kind of reminds me of when I saw Pearl Jam at the Gorge in 2006 and was thrilled to see they were donating $5 of every ticket to local food banks. But then at the gate, the band’s head of security was ordering the confiscation of all food being brought into the venue and threw it in the garbage, including about $20 in sandwiches and other food I wanted to bring in for the show with my wife. There was a disconnect there: “Too many people are still going hungry, but it’s OK to waste thousands of pounds of perfectly good food.” In my work, I see the effects of real hunger on disadvantaged families. So this kind of virtue signaling is abhorrent to me.

It’s hard to be pure. But the prophets should at least try to live into the prophecy. 

Go Beavers

Jimmydean55 said:

As I said before…

And this highlights an issue that is part of the discussion on lessening environmental impact. The person who takes a conservation stance gets labeled a hypocrite in order to reject their message. It happens all the time, and the problem being that we all impact the planet so cynics will use an arbitrary gatekeeping measurement device to determine who’s worth listening to and who do we reject because they’re hypocrites. 

Get_Right

 It is monetisation of the band. Vinyl, merch, posters, tickets etc. They still put on one of the best live shows, which is all that matters to me.

Go Beavers

Get_Right said:

 It is monetisation of the band. Vinyl, merch, posters, tickets etc. They still put on one of the best live shows, which is all that matters to me.

The band was monetized in 1991

Vedd Hedd

bicyclejoe said:

Of course, the sad reality is that streaming music is more damaging to the planet than producing vinyl records. Storing and processing downloaded music require vast data centers that use tremendous amounts of resources and energy.

Just highlighting this. I don't know if its more damaging in the long run or not, but it's definitely a good point that everything we do has consequences.  That said, I wonder what the "limited edition colored variant" percentage of landfills is? Like, how many records end up in landfills or the ocean? Probably close to 0. Even scratched or broken ones can get framed or repurposed. And in the spirit of the regional ones, its to help local businesses, so I'm all for it. I collect records, but I am not a "completist". Its good to have hobbies, but I wont lose any sleep over not having every possible variant. Just want to track down my local one, help my local community and have a cool other color to spin.

Jason P

The key thing I've learned is to never share your opinion on anything ... at least that's my opinion.  Now I'm off to lite some sparklers and dance in my driveway.

BF25394

bicyclejoe said:

BF25394 said:

Because there are bigger things that one could do to help the world does not mean that one should not do small things to help the world.

Our individual choices add up. I have always driven a small car that gets high mileage per gallon. Does this amount to a "drop in the bucket" of oil consumption? Well, yes and no. It actually adds up to thousands of barrels of oil compared to a larger car or SUV over the lifetime of the car, which is figuratively, though not literally, a "drop in the bucket." However, if each of us makes similar choices, then we can collectively put a dent in the problem. But I don't throw my hands up and trade in my car when I see someone blow by me in a Hummer. I still do my part.

It kind of reminds me of when I saw Pearl Jam at the Gorge in 2006 and was thrilled to see they were donating $5 of every ticket to local food banks. But then at the gate, the band’s head of security was ordering the confiscation of all food being brought into the venue and threw it in the garbage, including about $20 in sandwiches and other food I wanted to bring in for the show with my wife. There was a disconnect there: “Too many people are still going hungry, but it’s OK to waste thousands of pounds of perfectly good food.” In my work, I see the effects of real hunger on disadvantaged families. So this kind of virtue signaling is abhorrent to me.

It’s hard to be pure. But the prophets should at least try to live into the prophecy. 

It was the band's head of security and not the venue's? That really is a disconnect.

Go Beavers

BF25394 said:

bicyclejoe said:

BF25394 said:

Because there are bigger things that one could do to help the world does not mean that one should not do small things to help the world.

Our individual choices add up. I have always driven a small car that gets high mileage per gallon. Does this amount to a "drop in the bucket" of oil consumption? Well, yes and no. It actually adds up to thousands of barrels of oil compared to a larger car or SUV over the lifetime of the car, which is figuratively, though not literally, a "drop in the bucket." However, if each of us makes similar choices, then we can collectively put a dent in the problem. But I don't throw my hands up and trade in my car when I see someone blow by me in a Hummer. I still do my part.

It kind of reminds me of when I saw Pearl Jam at the Gorge in 2006 and was thrilled to see they were donating $5 of every ticket to local food banks. But then at the gate, the band’s head of security was ordering the confiscation of all food being brought into the venue and threw it in the garbage, including about $20 in sandwiches and other food I wanted to bring in for the show with my wife. There was a disconnect there: “Too many people are still going hungry, but it’s OK to waste thousands of pounds of perfectly good food.” In my work, I see the effects of real hunger on disadvantaged families. So this kind of virtue signaling is abhorrent to me.

It’s hard to be pure. But the prophets should at least try to live into the prophecy. 

It was the band's head of security and not the venue's? That really is a disconnect.

More than likely it’s a venue rule. 

cmikehelton

She lost me at sustainable..